---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  How to convert keg to brew pot? ("Tray Bourgoyne")
  Post ferment dilution (Brett Hetherington)
  Old Potrero ("Fred Waltman")
  re: Target Gravity (John Schnupp)
  RE: Wort recirculation thru CFC (Dean Fikar)
  all wheat beers? (Steven S)
  Re: Target Gravity (measuring boil-off rate) ("Fred L. Johnson")
  Propylene Glycol Alginate (ksc58)
  Light vs. Dark Extract Fermentables ("Andrew Moore")
  Making Root Beer ("Stephen Rockey")
  RE: Target Gravity ("Steven Parfitt")
  Re: Brix to SG conversion (Demonick)
  Boston Homebrew Competition / MCAB5 Qualifying Event ("John B. Doherty")
  2ndary fermentation and rackings ("Ralph Davis")
  New Years Brewing Questions ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  beer article (Ed Jones)
  thermocouples (David Passaretti)
  Re: Yeast Reproduction Limit? ("Steve Alexander")
  re: Target Gravity ("gmc")
  Re: barley cereal mash questions (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Something new (Bierschnapps) (Jeff Renner)
  Solera Ale; was Re: New Zymurgy (Jeff Renner)


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Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 22:16:08 -0600
From: "Tray Bourgoyne" <tray at netdoor.com>
Subject: How to convert keg to brew pot?

Thanks for all the help on my questions of late! I just returned from New
Orleans. Mike Karnowski of Brew Ha Ha Homebrewing supplies helped me
purchase my first beer ingredients kit ( Nut brown ale) and a few other
things I needed to complete my kit.
One of the final things I want is a larger brew kettle.

I have a old 15 gallon keg that I want to use. I'm looking for instructions
on how to convert this keg to a brew kettle. I have searched the web with no
luck. I need the specific instructions and anything I should add to make it
a better brew pot.

Thanks,

Tray Bourgoyne
Raymond, MS



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Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 21:22:33 -0700
From: Brett Hetherington <Bretth at idcomm.com>
Subject: Post ferment dilution

Howdy Wortheads,

I figured some of you might find this interesting...
Like the rest of you, I'm cursed with lite beer swillin
relatives who think beer with taste is a bad thing. 
In an attempt at familial harmony, I decided to try an
experiment with batch #13, which was a wheat ale, OG 1046,
fg 1006.   
I put 2 gallons of wheat ale in my 2.5 gallon firestone keg
along with 60 fluid oz. of boiled water and 4 fluid oz. of
Everclear. My intent was to lighten the taste while leaving
the alcohol content the same.
I force carbonated 24 hours at 30 lbs.
I'm not disappointed with the results! It's a lighter bodied
version of my delicious wheat.
The malty taste is still incredible, which is typical for my
recipe. Not bragging, ok yes I am.
Anybody desiring a brew for the lite beer swillin masses
should give this a try with their favorite recipe.

Brett Hetherington,
Aurora, Colo.


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Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 23:48:49 -0800
From: "Fred Waltman" <fwaltman at mediaone.net>
Subject: Old Potrero

David Craft asks about Old Potrero:

Its not called Whiskey (or even Whisky) because it isn't aged long enough.
Distilled grain spirits have to be aged for 3 or 4 years (I forget which)
and O.P. is not aged very long (2 years sticks in my head, but I'm not 100%
sure of that). Nothing to do with the grain bill or location it was
distilled.

Hope this helps.

Fred Waltman
Los Angeles, CA



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Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 23:55:15 -0800 (PST)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Target Gravity

From: "gmc" <gmc at setel.com>
>I do a 10 gallon batch and this has posed a problem for me. It would be nice
>to know exactly how much volume is being boiled away so I can stop or go a
>little longer with boil if needed.
>
>Has anyone thought about collecting the steam during the boil and condensing
>it back into some measurable volume/weight?

I have never tried to collect/measure the condensate from the boil.  I assume
it could be done.  One thing to keep in mind is that the boiloff rate is
depends on how "strong" the boil is.  If you are like me, I assume that you
typically boil so that wort is boiling at about the same rate from batch to
batch.

I think think you should be able to find the answer to your question with some
careful note taking.  Record the volume of the wort you collect before you
begin to boil.  Boil at your normal rate.  After you have filled your
fermenters, you will need to determine how much wort was trapped in the various
components of your system (left in kettle, trapped in hops, left in chiller,
etc ...)  You will then need to calcualte.  
Evap rate = (1-fermenter volume+losses/preboil volume)/boil time

If you use ProMash, use the water needed function.  Plug in all the volumes and
then adjust the evaporation rate till you get the collected volume to be
correct.  After a couple batches, you should have a pretty decent average for
your system.  

This seems a lot easier to me than trying to go to all the work to build
something to collect the condensate.  After all, you will only use that special
equipment a few times too.  

=====
John Schnupp, N3CNL
??? Hombrewery
[560.2, 68.6] Rennerian
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200, Horse with no Name



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Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 04:34:26 -0800
From: Dean Fikar <dfikar at swbell.net>
Subject: RE: Wort recirculation thru CFC

Steve A. writes:

"Another suggestion is to recirc iodophor solution thru the pump, CFC and
tubing for 20' prior to recirc'ing hot wort.  Hot wort is not a sufficient
sanitizer.  This step was critical to getting a clean (no infection in
unpitched wort after 72hr) wort test from my system."

Interesting comments.  I thought that hot wort would be an effective
sanitizer if given enough time.  Fix, in "Analysis of Brewing Techniques",
suggests that a 10 minute contact time is sufficient (100K reduction in cell
counts) for even thermophilic bacteria at near boiling temperatures.  This
is a bit longer than I recirc but he also writes that if you keep your
equipment scrupulously clean you should be okay with a 1K microbial
reduction.  Perhaps I need to do another wort stability test soon even
though I don't think I've had any significant infection problems lately.
Comments?

Dean Fikar
Fort Worth, TX






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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 07:24:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: all wheat beers?


I am wanting to try a all wheat beer, 100% grain bill is wheat (white
winter wheat). Has anyone tried this that cares to comment?


 Steven St.Laurent ::: stevensl at 403forbidden.net ::: 403forbidden.net
			[580.2, 181.4] Rennerian

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The Marines don't have that problem." -- President Ronald Reagan, 1985







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Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 07:59:05 -0500
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Target Gravity (measuring boil-off rate)

"gmc" asks how to determine his boil off rate:

First of all, it would be polite for posters to provide their name with
their posts. (I beg gmc's forgiveness if gmc is actually his name.)

Second, one can determine one's typical boil-off rate by measuring 1)the
volume in the kettle before and after several boils and 2) measuring the
exact length of each boil.  Simply calculate the boil-off rate (volume
change per minute) for each boil and average the various values.  The more
times you measure the boil-off rate, the more representative your average
value will be.  If your heat supply is set about the same every time you
boil, you should get a fairly small standard deviation for these boil-off
rates.  

To determine the volume change in your kettle during the boil, you must
calibrate some type of volume measuring device. Cumulatively add 1 gallon of
water at a time to your kettle, measuring the height of the cumulative
volumn on a yardstick (preferably metal) with each addition, and plot the
cumulative volume in the kettle vs. height on your yardstick.  This plot
applies to COLD volumes, not boiling wort. The plot will not be a straight
line if you use a barrel shaped keg for a boiling kettle, but it will be a
straight line if you use some type of cylindrical container for a kettle.

Use the above plot to look up the volume loss of your worts during the boil
by simply measuring the volume (height) before the boil (i.e., before the
wort gets very hot) and after each boil (after it cools).  You will have to
use use an immersion chiller to do this, and remove the chiller before
making your measurement of the cooled wort.  If your height vs. volumne plot
for your kettle is a straight line, you can calculate a linear fit to the
points and use the formula for calculating the volume change instead of
reading it off of your plot.  (One can ignore the small volume added to the
kettle by hops.)  Just be sure to measure the volume of your wort in the
kettle before it gets very hot.
- -- 
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA



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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 08:41:46 -0500 (EST)
From: ksc58 <kcada at cas.org>
Subject: Propylene Glycol Alginate

Happy New Year!

   I've been given a kilogram of propylene glycol alginate.  I've read
that this is used in the brewing industry for head retention/stabilization
for beer and I'm curious to know how much of this is used per gallon and
during which brewing step it's added.  I assume a kilo will probably
stabilize a few barrels! I would guess that this is added somewhere between
pitching and kegging/bottling.

   Does anyone have any info about this stuff?  I'd like to use it on some
of the light lagers I make as well as homemade rootbeer.  Please don't send
the Reinheitsgebot Police after me!

					      Ken Cada
					      kcada at cas.org


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Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 08:51:51 -0500
From: "Andrew Moore" <abmjunk at hotmail.com>
Subject: Light vs. Dark Extract Fermentables

The past couple of days have featured some great posts regarding yeast and 
the fermentation process. There's a wealth of knowledge here.

On to the question(s):

I have noticed, in the course of a few batches that, according to extremely 
unscientific data, a batch made with light extract will finish at a lower 
specific gravity than one made with dark extract. Both batches started 
around the same OG (+/- 1.060), but the dark finished around 1.020 while the 
light finished around 1.010. I know that many of the specialty grains 
contain few fermentables, while contributing to the OG. Is is correct to 
think that dark extract has fewer fermentables than light?

If so, is there a known factor that could be used in recipe design to relate 
dark to light extract quantities? For example, quantity "x" of LME plus 
quantity "y" of roasted grains (black patent, chocolate, etc.) equals 
quantity "z" of DME in OG? Or, perhaps the factor could be expressed in 
percentage of fermentables for given weight of LME and DME?

Finally, based on response to the above, where does amber extract fall in 
the continuum?

Thanks.

Andrew Moore
Richmond, Virginia



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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 08:16:54 -0600
From: "Stephen Rockey" <christ at egyptian.net>
Subject: Making Root Beer

Hello,

	I want to make some Root Beer for my kids.  I have a container of
concentrate, and the 2 liter bottles.  The only question I have is, How much
year do I use for a 4 gallon batch, or how much per 2 liter bottle?  The
direction I have indicate how much to use for a 12 oz bottle, and I could
extrapolate, but I would like to know exactly.

	I searched the net and found many recipes for Root Beer, but none addressed
this question.


			Thanks,

			Steve Rockey



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Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 09:26:35 -0500
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Target Gravity

GMC querries:

>I will toss this one out there to see if anyone else had similar >thoughts 
>on measuring boil-off, or even tried something of the sort to >accurately 
>measure the loss of volume during the boil.
>If my calculations are correct, +/- a half gallon can move the old
>hydrometer a couple of points either way. Although this may sound >trivial 
>to some, a couple points here and a couple points there seems >to add up to 
>something other than what I intended.

>I have read about folks using measuring sticks, or whatever you call >it, 
>to measure fluid levels during the boil. With the idea that the >density of 
>water changes during the boil makes this whole idea just a >little 
>subjective to me.
 ....SNIP...
>Has anyone thought about collecting the steam during the boil and 
> >condensing it back into some measurable volume/weight?


The collection idea seems a bit complicated to me since you have to cool the 
steam and recover it, and be very carefull not to let any escape(which would 
essentialy require a closed system). Not to mention the possibility of 
trapping some of the volitiles we are trying to get rid of (due to 
restriction in a closed system).

I just finished making a "measureing stick" by cutting a  3' section of 
copper water line (1/2") and pressing four straight couplings on it. The 
couplings were pressed (Hammered) into position to indicate 3, 6, 9, and 12 
gallons. I measured cold water in 3 gallon batches and heated them on the 
stove, then added them to the boiler (after adding enough water to account 
for what will remain in the boiler when it is drained) to get the proper 
positions of the couplings. I can interpolater between them for measuring 
other ammounts.

It seems easier to me to measure what is left in the boiler, rather than 
measuring what was removed. Besides, I never accuratly measure my sparge 
water. I sparge till it hits 1.010 and boil till I have the required 11 
gallons left(or whatever I target).

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN 5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck



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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 07:45:56 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Brix to SG conversion

Here is yet another conversion formula:

/*
** Formula was derived from the 69th edition (1988-1989) of the CRC Handbook
** of Chemistry and Physics, "Concentrative Properties of Aqueous Solutions:
** Conversion Tables", Table 88 Sucrose
**
** MathCAD was used to curvefit the data for Degrees Brix  at  20 C (% sucrose
** by weight) and specific gravity  at  15 C
**
** SG = 1.000898 + 0.003859118*B + 0.00001370735*B^2 + 0.00000003742517*B^3
**
** where:
**
** B  = measured refractivity in Brix
** SG = calculated specific gravity at 15 C
**
*/

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 08:15:11 -0800 (PST)
From: "John B. Doherty" <dohertybrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: Boston Homebrew Competition / MCAB5 Qualifying Event

Dear Fellow Beer Enthusiasts, 

     The Boston Wort Processors are pleased to formally announce the Eighth
Annual BOSTON HOMEBREW COMPETITION (BHC8) to be held on February 9th, 2002! 
This competition is run by the Boston Wort Processors Homebrew Club and is a
BJCP Registered Event.  The competition will be held at the Watch City Brewing
Company in Waltham, MA, just west of Boston.  This competition will again be
the Northeast Regional Qualifying Event for the 5th year of the Masters
Championship of Amateur Brewing (MCAB) Competition! (http://hbd.org/mcab/)  The
BHC8 page on our club website (http://www.wort.org/bhc.html) lists the
qualifying styles for MCAB5. This competition will also be the 2nd of five in
the 2002 New England Homebrewer of the Year (http://mail.symuli.com/NEHBOTY)
circuit.

     All BJCP Styles will be judged, including Cider and Mead.  The Entry
Deadline has been set as Friday February 1, 2002 and the entry fee is $5.00 per
entry. We will also need judge and steward support, so please come and help us
out if you can!  
     On February 9th, the entries will be judged in morning and afternoon
sessions with a complimentary lunch served to judges and stewards.  A public
Best Of Show judging and Awards Presentation will follow the afternoon session.
 Watch City Brewing Company's Head Brewer, Aaron Mateychuk, will also select a
Brewmaster's Choice Award from among the BOS finalists.  The lucky entrant who
wins the Brewmaster's Choice will get to assist Aaron in brewing a brewpub
sized batch of their beer at Watch City!!!
     All of the information one needs to enter the competition or to judge or
steward in the competition can be found at: http://www.wort.org/bhc.html
including entry forms, bottle labels, judge registration forms, drop-off and
ship-to info, etc.  We encourage everyone who is interested in this competition
to obtain information through the website as it will be continually updated
there.  Feel free to send me email at dohertybrewing at yahoo.com with questions
you might have.  Spread the word and we look forward to judging your entries!!

Cheers and Happy Brewing!

John B. Doherty 
Head Organizer for the 2002 Boston Homebrew Competition (BHC8)
dohertybrewing at yahoo.com 
978-670-6987 (w)
508-923-6376 (h)
Surf to http://www.wort.org/bhc.html for all competition details!! 





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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 12:20:00 -0500
From: "Ralph Davis" <rdavis77 at erols.com>
Subject: 2ndary fermentation and rackings

Happy New Year all!  I have a question for the experienced beerlings among
you:  What are the best methods and how long should one do 2ndary
fermentations? (I know some people don't do any)  According to the book,
"Beer Captured" by the Szamatulskis, (successor to "Clonebrews"), one can
leave a beer in the 2ndary carboy with an airlock for months...  Actually
for a couple of recipes I made recently they recommend an 8 week 2ndary.
When, after a week or so, I see nearly an inch of trub on the bottom of the
2ndary carboy, I've racked it to another fully sanitized carboy for clarity
and taste's sake.  Is this a wise procedure?  I just don't like the idea of
the beer sitting on top of the trub for weeks.   Anyway, I'd like to hear
some of the old boys' advice....

Oh, by the way, "Beer Captured" has some great recipes.... fully 1/3 of
which are for Belgian creations....


Ralph W. Davis
Leesburg, Virginia
[395.2, 121.8] Apparent Rennerian

"Beer is living proof that God loves us
and wants us to be happy."   -Benjamin Franklin




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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 09:48:26 -0800 
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: New Years Brewing Questions

Hi all,
  Ran into some problems & questions with a batch I did yesterday.

1) I did a starter of White Labs English Ale Yeast 002.  It seemed not to
ferment much, I never saw the airlock moving at a quick rate.  But when I
pitched it, there was about 1" in the bottom of the gallon jug, so it must
have done something.  Just to be sure, I checked the gravity & it looked
like it only dropped about 6-8 points, so less than 1% alcohol.  Is this
normal?  I noticed there was what looked like a very thin white strata in
the middle of the yeast sediment.  Any idea of what this is?  Everything
seems to be fermenting fine now, I achieved wort fermentation after about
6-7 hours.  Also, I keep reading about people doing various sizes of
starters (1 pint, 1 quart).  Does that measurement indicate the amount of
wort that the yeast is put into, or the about of yeast collected?  I assume
the former, since 1 quart of yeast seems like a lot.

2) What part of the brewing process causes DMS?  I kept the lid on the
kettle while steeping the specialty grains for 30 mins & afterwards while
the wort was heating up to a boil.  I took it off once it reached about 200
degrees.

3) Unfortunately, I ran out of propane just before the wort reached boiling.
I had to run out & get my tank refilled.  By the time I came back, it had
been about 25 minutes & it had cooled back down to about 180.  Will this
cause a problem or affect the batch, & if so, how?  I had already taken the
grains out, so they didn't have additional steeping time.

4) Being flustered by running out of propane, when the wort started to boil,
I added the hops, forgetting to add the extracts.  After boiling for about 8
minutes, I realized what I had done, shut off the heat & added the liquid
extract.  It took about 20 minutes to reach boiling again.  Will this cause
a problem or affect the batch, & if so, how?  I noticed that the wort had a
very green grassy taste, so I'm assuming this effectively added a 20 min
steep of the bittering hops that extract more flavor.  I still made sure to
have a total of 60 minutes of boiling time.

5) This batch is a Newcastle clone & called for 1/2 lb of Dark Brown Sugar.
Once I turned the heat back on, a thick brown foam/scum appeared on the top
of the wort.  It stuck around for quite some time & actualy turned into a
whitish foam with a crusty brown top.  Was this because of the Brown Sugar,
the hops reacting to adding the extract/sugar out of order, or something
else?

6) I noticed when I put my immersion chiller into the wort, that the boil
stopped for about 3 minutes.  Should I be concerned about that & add extend
the boil that amount of time, or just not worry about it?

Thanks,
Nils Hedglin
Sacramento, CA


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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 13:56:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Ed Jones <ejones at ironacres.com>
Subject: beer article

Here's a good article from Today's Chemist.
http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journals/tcaw/10/i12/html/12filmore.html

- --
Ed Jones - Columbus, Ohio U.S.A - [163.8, 159.4] [B, D] Rennerian

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:03:22 -0800 (PST)
From: David Passaretti <dpassaretti at yahoo.com>
Subject: thermocouples

I am currently using a HERMS based on 15.5 gal Sanke
kges. I have a three way ball valve that directs the
reciirculating wort to either a 50ft coil within the
HLT or directly bak to the mash tun. I generally leave
the pump running (and the wort recircualting)
throughout the entire mash. If the temp of the mash
gets a little low, a flip the ball balve until the
temp is stabilized. I was hoping to automate this some
sort of controller, thermocouple, and solenoid valves.
 There seem to be many types of TCs (K,J,T). Does
anyone know what the best kind to sue is? Also, could
I use a regular temp controller like the ones in Beer,
Beer, and more Beer, or do I need a PID controller?
Will PID controllers open/close a Solenoid?
Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

David Passaretti
Cincinnati, OH



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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:09:17 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Yeast Reproduction Limit?

Bill asks ...

>I have
> read, somewhere, that you can aerate again, especially with big beers,
> 12-14 hours after fermentation starts. [...]
>My question is, would this be a good practice to do
> regular, just on big beers, or maybe not at all?

Glen Pannicke's post included a very relevant nugget that deserves
expansion.  Making good beer and making healthy yeast fermentations are two
different things.  Aerating at any time in the fermentation is good for the
yeast, but aerating wort/beer is always bad (or at least not good)  for beer
flavor.  Good beer making methods must walk the rather broad line between
good yeast growth, attenuation and preventing off flavors from yeast
nutritional deficits versus excess of oxidation products or FAN, etc that
will negatively impact flavor or stability of the beer.

Aerating wort when it is cool, pitched  and before alcohols and esters have
formed minimizes the potential flavor damage to the beer, so you should
always aerate wort at pitching time.   You may need to aerate wort again
later into the fermentation, but there are some judgement calls involved.

First there are big variations in the amount of O2 a particular yeast needs
for proper growth.   Some yeast improve performance (long term - over many
repitchings) up to saturation levels of air around 8ppm and perhaps beyond,
while others plateau at only 4ppm of dissolved O2.   Knowing your yeast pays
dividends, but it's a difficult thing to judge.   If you try more O2 and it
doesn't help, maybe that's normal for that yeast.  Don't continue adding
more and more O2 just for grins.  Try it - see if it helps - and let the
yeast tell you what it likes (keep notes).

Next, what you are asking for in terms of yeast growth ?  If you have
"normal" gravity (<13.5P) wort you can almost always succeed by aerating
once and pitching at recommended levels.   If you underpitch then you are
asking for more yeast growth.    "[...] OG was 1080, 5 gallons.  I made a qt
starter [...]" is classic HB underpitching.  If this was a step-up starter
and not reactivation of a big slurry then it's underpitched by about 3X.
A10% starter size (2qt for 5gal) is suggested for 12P ale wort, and
proportionately more as the gravity increases.  Also high gravity wort
requires more yeast growth per unit wort (per liter or gallon) in order for
the yeast to reproduce up to the attenuation limit.  High gravity wort does
have more sugar, more FAN and more nutrients per gallon, but it can only
hold similar levels of O2 from aeration as normal wort.  Additional late
aeration makes sense in underpitched and/or high gravity worts.

High gravity wort introduces three additional stresses on yeast; high
osmotic pressure, high CO2 content and high ethanol levels.  All of these
stresses are reduced when yeast have better, less permeable cell membranes.
This means adequate levels of UFAs and sterols which require oxygen.
Personally, if I was making a barleywine or a 20P wee-heavy I'd include a
late aeration in the schedule.  Another useful method is an open primary
fermentation which introduces small amounts of O2 over an extended period of
time.

When aerating late  I don't think a cut-off time in hours is a very reliable
guide, tho' you *may* be able to aerate up to 24 hours after pitching.  A
better rule of thumb is to stop active aeration about the time first CO2
bubbles start for normal gravity wort at recommended pitching rates.    You
can aerate later than this as the pitching rate increases - for example in
20P wort well pitched wort you should be able to aerate later.   The
reasoning and  guesswork surrounding this recommendation have to do with the
an understanding of when yeast are capable of making sterols and UFAs from
available oxygen.  After some initial period yeast are less apt produce
lipids even if oxygen is available.

This is only a rule of thumb - mind you.  Listen to your yeast.  Don't sweat
a few hours either way.  If you smell ethanol and esters (if the bubbles
smell more like beer than wort) you're best off avoiding active aeration.-
period.

==

Dom Venezia asks ...
>(what ever happened to Paul Erhlich and the Council of Rome?)

He's busy co-authoring more alarmist tripe with some other ChickenLittles.!
There's more job security in (re-)predicting the end of the world than I
would have imagined.

 -S





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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 20:54:08 -0600
From: "gmc" <gmc at setel.com>
Subject: re: Target Gravity

Fred L. Johnson Wrote:

First of all, it would be polite for posters to provide their name with
their posts. (I beg gmc's forgiveness if gmc is actually his name.)

*********
Ah shucks Fred, don't worry about it, I forgive you.

I would like to thank those of you that made such generous and informative
responses to my post. Seems that it may be a good idea to let the steam
evaporate after all. I have two or three good ideas now to explore and
thanks so much for steering me back on to the road.

Relax, don't worry, get a measuring stick....

Cheers!!!
gmc







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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 13:39:11 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: barley cereal mash questions

Catching up.

Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com> writes:

>I am planning to use some unmalted barley in a dry stout this weekend. I am
>doing a cereal mash as a substitute for flaked barley, but everyone seems to
>have a different method.  I've read Renner's articles in the hbd archives,
>but he speaks of corn and rice, not barley.

Actually, the reason for a cereal mash with unmalted rice and corn 
(maize) is that the gelatinization temperatures of their starches is 
above the temperature of ordinary mashes.  Barley starch gelatinizes 
below mash temperatures.  So a cereal mash is not actually necessary, 
although it won't hurt, and will probably make the conversion a 
little more time-efficient.

>First, I assume I mill the barley before the cereal mash?

Yes, whether you use a cereal mash or just put it into the mash raw.

>Second, how long do I boil?  I've seen ranges mentioned from 10 mins to 6
>hours. Same as for rice/corn?

Since gelatinization is the reason for boiling, it's fort of a moot 
question.  I'd say 20 minutes should be ample.

>Third, what does this do to the water required for the regular mash?  Do I
>go ahead and add my usual 1.33 quarts/lb for the cereal mash even though it
>has water added already?  My inclination is to add NO water to the regular
>mash to account for the added cereal mash.  How does the water retained in
>these spent grains compare to others?  Do they retain a lot more or less
>water?

Take into account the water in your cereal mash.  I generally use 
about the same amount in the cereal mash as in a regular mash, so it 
all comes out even in the end.

>Finally, Renner mentions adding a percentage of malted barley to the cereal
>mash of corn or rice.  Is this a good idea for a barley cereal mash as well?

Yes, it keeps the mash thin and easier to handle and incorporate into 
the main mash.

Hope this helps.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 14:59:28 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Something new (Bierschnapps)

Another Jeff <duckinchicago at yahoo.com> writes:

>   >>>Anchor Steam has gotten on the distilled spirits
>kick in a good way and sells a very interesting gin
>called "Junipero" and a very-expensive Whiskey called
>(I believe) "Old Portero".  Haven't tried either, but
>have heard many good things about them.  Although I
>have to say, for the price of the Portrero ($88), you
>could buy an amazing single malt scotch or small batch
>bourbon (or two very nice ones!)
>   Anyone tried these?  (I know this is a beer forum,
>but I figure Fritz is still 99% a beer guy.)

Fritz's Anchor Distillery is producing some amazing spirits.  Here 
are some thoughts on them:

Old Potrero Whiskeys.  I have two that I received two years ago as 
Christmas presents.  I'm not sure what is available now.  My sister 
and brother-in-law have an upscale restaurant in Big Sur, California, 
and were able to get these.  They have have limited availability, and 
one cannot be sold outside of California.

It seems that Fritz figured that he'd been drinking straight rye 
whiskey all of his adult life and he decided to tackle making 
something like the original rye whiskey of colonial times, using a 
pot still rather than a modern continuous column still.

Rye is the original American whiskey (older than bourbon, which is 
essentially aged corn whiskey).  It is what Scottish and Irish 
Yankees made in new England and other northern colonies, and is what 
the Whiskey Rebellion was fought over..  After prohibition it never 
recovered its popularity, and bourbon became much more popular among 
straight whiskeys, along with blended (with grain neutral spirits) 
American and Canadian whiskeys.  Straight rye has recently enjoyed a 
comeback, thanks in part to the writings of Jim Murray (the whiskey 
writer, not the baseball writer).

Original rye whiskey, along with other whiskeys and spirits of 200 
years ago, were probably not aged very much if at all, and not in 
charred oak barrels (that came in the mid 19th Century in Kentucky 
and is now the requirement for rye and bourbon).  They very likely 
bore more resemblance to schnapps and/or vodka.  Old Potrero Single 
Malt Spirit is aged less than two years (23 months, but the front 
label says one year) in uncharred new oak barrels, so it can't be 
called whiskey or sold outside of California.  Old Potrero Single 
Malt Straight Whiskey is a similar raw spirit (I think) that has been 
aged in charred oak barrels for three years to comply with US 
government requirements for calling it whiskey.

Both are made from 100% malted rye (other ryes are made with 50-60% 
unmalted rye, with maybe 10-15% malted barley and the balance corn) 
and are bottled at cask strength (~125 proof).  They are intensely 
flavored!  They almost have to be diluted to drink, although my wife 
thinks that is heresy.

The single malt (my bottle from the batch distilled 6/3/97, bottled 
5/25/99) is paler than most American whiskeys - the color comes only 
from the raw oak, and is fruity and spicy (fruitcake spices) on the 
nose.  The palate is similar, very intense, and the finish is 
intense, long and full of complex warm spices.

The whiskey (distilled 12/27/95, bottled 1/14/99) is is somewhat 
darker, but nowhere as dark as most older bourbons.  The nose is 
similar but with more subdued fruit and with some oaky vanilla, 
making it slightly more conventional.  It is slightly smoother on the 
palate, and less intensely flavored (but only in comparison).  The 
finish is long and complex.  It is somewhat more refined, but 
powerful.

I like both of these, but only in very small doses.  They are that 
powerful.  I am down to about 1/3 of a bottle of each, and they seem 
to have held up fine.  Considering their alcoholic strength and the 
intensity of flavor, as well as their collective uniqueness, I think 
they are worth $88 (easy for me to say).  I think they wholesaled for 
$67 two years ago to the restaurant trade, so that isn't too big a 
markup.  I found the whiskey in Massachusetts this summer at $125. 
That's pretty steep.

For an interesting early look at Old Potrero, see Jim Murray's Malt 
Advocate article at http://www.whiskeypages.com/All_American/story_3/ 
 .

A little bit about other more conventional straight rye whiskies 
(Canadian blended whisky is often called rye, especially in Canada, 
but it contains very little these days, and in NYC, American blended 
whiskey is also called rye but probably has none whatever).

I am perhaps most fond of Jim Beam Straight Rye.  It has a bright 
yellow label, making it stand out from the JB bourbons.  It is 
inexpensive (less than $13 here in Michigan with the uncompetitive 
controlled prices).  It is less oaky than other ryes (or bourbons, 
for that), allowing the fruitiness and spiciness of the oak to show 
through.  JB's other rye is Old Overholt, an old Pennsylvania label 
they took over (I have an unopened bottle from the 1930s, distilled 
before prohibition).  It is fuller bodied with more oaky richness, 
but this covers some of the distinctiveness of the rye.  Wild 
Turkey's rye is another fine rye, even oakier, and at 101 proof, a 
bigger whiskey.  There are also some other older ryes showing up from 
old stocks of now defunct distilleries.  One very nice one is Van 
Winkle's Family Reserve, available in 12 and 13 year old versions. 
I've forgotten which distillery this was produced at.

If you like bourbon, I commend the exploration of straight rye whiskey.

//

Now on to the gin - Junipero.  I'm not sure the motivation for its 
production, but I suspect it was cash flow.  Gin needs no aging, so 
it can produce immediate revenue.  This gin is single handledly 
responsible for making a martini drinker of me.  I had tried martinis 
made from other premium gins and wasn't that impressed.  I'd take a 
well made Manhattan any time (with straight rye (but not Old 
Potrero), thank you, not bourbon or, heaven forbid, blended whiskey). 
But my sister and brother-in-law also included a bottle of this (and 
I had only asked for a sample of the two ryes in "airplane" miniature 
bottles!).  I still prefer a Manhattan (2:1, don't forget the 
bitters) in the winter, but there are times when a martini is just 
right.

At 98.6 proof, it is stronger than any other gin I know.  It is full 
flavored and full bodied for a gin, almost oily, smooooth, aromatic, 
very complex, and holds up well to the necessary dilution of chilling 
(stirred or shaken, your choice), as well as to a little vermouth (I 
am traditional in this - I like about 4:1, not the more trendy 
"glance in the direction of the vermouth bottle").

This is more easily available, at least in California.  I saw it last 
week at Old Doc's Liquors in Fresno for $26.95 - and it's easily 
worth this price.  And if it's available in Fresno, it should be more 
easily available in bigger, more sophisticated markets.

BTW, since discovering Junipero, I have also become a fan of the new 
(<2 years) Tanqueray 10 gin at a similar price (not to be confused 
with regular Tanqueray).  It is also extremely to my liking - a 
little drier, and also miles ahead of any other I've tasted.

//

If you've read this far, you may be interested in the irregularly 
published Distilled Beverage Digest (to subscribe, send the word 
"subscribe", without the quotes, to dbd-request@hbd.org).  It was an 
outgrowth of discussions of distilling and distilled beverages on HBD 
that led to DBD's establishment, thanks to janitor Pat Babcock.  I 
will also post this to DBD, so there may be some followup there.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 22:54:45 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Solera Ale; was Re: New Zymurgy

Just catching up from ten days in soggy California, so I'll post a 
bunch, which I'll send out as soon as Comcast/Mediaone/ATT-Broadband 
or whoever they are now gets me back on line.  My service went down 
this am and they project a 24 hour repair. :-(

//

Anyway, "David Craft" <David-Craft at craftinsurance.com> wrote some 
kind words from Greensboro, NC:

>Congratulations to Ray Daniels and his staff for the latest Zymurgy, January
>2002.  From beginning to end it is the best I have ever read. I can imagine
>how hard it is to keep the topic fresh. I know there is alot to write about,
>but beer only goes so far!

Ray is a great editor - he has made all the difference in the 
direction and quality of Zymurgy.  Since the magazine is the primary 
benefit of membership, I can't overestimate the importance of quality 
in attracting and keeping members.

>I am impressed with the Solera article by Jeff Renner.  This might be a good
>project for a brew club, as different people could add different beers at
>different times.  I don't have a cellar or a dedicated space that I keep at
>55 degrees. We'll talk about it here in Greensboro, NC!  I have some
>Barleywine that I was not particularly impressed with I could add.

Great idea!

>Question for Jeff or anyone else, does oxidation play a big part in the
>process?  I assume if you have Acerbacter working, you have some oxidation
>somewhere along the way. What keeps this from turning to Vinegar?

I don't think oxidation is a big part, but on the other hand, some 
oxidation doesn't seem to hurt, and may even help in added 
complexity.  Vinegar is not a problem as long as there is no 
continuing exposure to oxygen.  Acetabacter requires O2 to metabolize 
ethanol into acetic acid (which is different from general oxidation). 
A limited O2 exposure in not going to produce much acetic acid, and a 
little probably also adds to complexity.

>Again, a great article and magazine. If you are not a member of the AHA, you
>should be!

I can only second this.  And thanks for the kind words.

Jeff


- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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---