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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  thx to CD Pritchard; blades for mash mixer? (Bret Morrow)
  poisonous wort? (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  hop tea (Randy Ricchi)
  AHA membership price (Chuck Mryglot)
  RE: That darned elusive... Schmidling-nel (Brian Lundeen)
  Re: hop tea (Rob Dewhirst)
  Beginner's Ode to Homebrewing ("R. Schaffer-Neitz")
  RE: Czech and Pilsner yeasts (question) ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: Stability Testing Wort ("Patrick Finerty Jr.")
  Hint of Smoke ("Ray Daniels")
  Re: Barley Wine Fermentation (Spencer W Thomas)
  re: Stability Testing Wort ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: Barley wine HELP (Jeff Renner)
  FYI (Roger & Roxy Whyman)


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Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 21:21:29 -0500
From: Bret Morrow <bret.morrow at prodigy.net>
Subject: thx to CD Pritchard; blades for mash mixer?

Greetings,

First I'd like to thank CD Pritchard & his web page (& Ken Schwarz & web
page).  I finally finished my plastic/electric HLT and immersion
coil/stirrer/grear motor lid to allow heating the recirculating liquid
from the mash.  Both these were based on CD's designs.  I'm sure he does
not remember, but he emailed me some help about 2 years ago!  Hey, I've
been busy!

I have now a new project.  I have a nice size gear motor (~5-60 rpm)
that I am thinking of using for a mash mixer.  I read in the archives
that Pete Calinski made one but doesn't use it anymore and that our
janitor (the Yeast monster--Pat Babcock) had a windfall of 2 electric
motors and was thinking about a mash mixer (did you do it??).  So, what
does everyone think?  Is a mash mixer worth making?  If so, what should
the blade design be?

TIA

Cheers,
Bret Morrow
Hamden, CT

( Rennerian coordinantes withheld in case he's still po'd at me about
the 50's music jokes...)



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Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 07:38:13 +0100 
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: poisonous wort?

Hi,
John Pendergast wrote about the risks when >taste any unfermented wort
product that has
been left unrefrigerated for ant peroid of time! >
I also read in Kirk -Othmer encyclopedia: beer cannot, because of its low pH
(4,2) harbor any pathogenic germs!
Does this mean, that when the pH of the wort is low (4.2), the risks of
getting food poisened or even dieing are gone? 
Greetings from Holland (Europe), Hans Aikema
<http://www.hopbier.myweb.nl/desinfectieenbacteria.html> (sorry, in Dutch)



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Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 08:34:34 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: hop tea

CMEBREW asked about making a hop tea to add to his beer at kegging time.

I assume you are planning to strain the tea through a coffee filter
because of clarity concerns. While this may aid in clarity, it may (not
sure, just guessing) filter out some of the hop oils, reducing flavor
and aroma.

What I have done to get tremendous hop aroma (and you can't help but get
a lot of hop flavor as well) in a finished beer is to heat 2 or 3 cups
of the beer up to the boiling point in a sauce pan, then remove from
heat and drop in a half ounce of hops and steep for two or three
minutes. I first put the hops (whole) in a mesh bag. While the hops are
steeping, I squeeze the bag with two spoons several times to force hot
beer through the leaves and extract as much hop goodness into the beer
as I can. Then I lift the hop bag out with the two spoons, squeezing to
extract as much liquid as I can, then add the tea back into the rest of
the beer. This will probably cloud the beer for awhile, but it will
settle out.

I don't worry about cooling the tea first, figuring that the small
amount of hot tea will be cooled almost immediately when dumped into 5
gallons of cool beer. If this concerns you, cool the tea first. If
you're worried about clarity, do this when you rack to secondary
(carboy), let sit for a couple of weeks, then keg it. I have used this
technique while bottling IPA's, and by the time the bottle has
carbonated, it's clear.

I think your idea of 3 or 4 oz hops is WAY too much.
Hope this helps.

Randy
from Michigans UP




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Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 08:50:31 -0500
From: Chuck Mryglot <cmryglot at cisco.com>
Subject: AHA membership price

Curious if this has happened to anyone else....

I received the AHA membership renewal card in the mail a while back...1
year $28 US (discount from $33).... with an invitation to renew online
and receive a free gift.   So, what's not to like?

I log on and renew.

I get my credit card statement and it shows that I was charged $33
instead of the advertised $28.     What's up with that?

I call AHA to get this corrected and am informed that the $28 price is
only if you (snail) mail your renewal in and that if you renew online
that the price is $33.

What's wrong with this picture?
 - Snail mail : more labor intensive but costs less?...e.g. encourage
snail mail
 - e-renewal costs more? ... e.g discourage this
 - no where on the membership renewal card does it explain this?

It's only $5 bucks but I feel like I was ripped off.

Anyone else?

ChuckM



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Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:16:11 -0600 
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: That darned elusive... Schmidling-nel

Mike Pensinger appears to be having some trouble tracking down the always
pleasant and courteous Jack Schmidling, producer of fine malt mills and the
man who gave Canadians the title of Howling Savages, for which we are
forever in his debt:

> I have been trying to email JSP Productions and keep getting 
> a returned email. Permenant Fatal Errors.  Does anyone have a 
> good email address.  I have been using arf at mc.net.  

If all else fails, you can probably get his attention through the Cheese
Lover's Digest, possibly the single least posted-to digest on the planet. I
think it's the only Digest where mistakenly directed subscription messages
outnumber the actual posts. In any case, his address there is:

cheese-owner at hbd.org

Cheese... I mean, Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg



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Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 07:51:31 -0600
From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Re: hop tea


>
>
>I am considering boiling a qt. of water, cooling it to 160, pouring this over
>3 or 4 oz of leaf hops, and steeping for 15". Then strain it thru a coffee
>filter into  the bottom of a corny keg before filling with fresh brew.
>
>Will this add much hop flavor/aroma? I have hallertau tradition hops. I hope
>to hear from those who do this or have tried it.

I split a batch of beer once and used the same hop variety and amount to 
dry hop half of the batch and made hop tea for the other half.

The consensus from the members of my homebrew club was that the hop tea was 
far more bitter and astringent.  There wasn't much aroma added.





- ---
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to 
teenage boys.
          -- P.J. O'Rourke 



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Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:25:31 -0500
From: "R. Schaffer-Neitz" <rschaff at ptd.net>
Subject: Beginner's Ode to Homebrewing

I hope I'm not taking bandwidth from someone who actually has something to
contribute, but I came up with this over the last day or two and had to
share it before I either forgot it or decided it was stupid (I'd rather let
others do that for me ;) ).

Beginner's Ode to Homebrewing
(you'll know what tune to sing it to)

Don't know much about chemistry.
Don't know microbiology.
Don't know much about the protein rest.
Don't know when to do a PH test.

(chorus)
But I do know I love to brew.
And I know that with some CO2
What a wonderful beer it will be.

Don't know much about malt extract.
Don't have a scale to make my weights exact.
Don't know how to make a lauter tun.
Don't know how to use a solder gun.

(chorus)

(bridge)
I never claimed to be Charlie Papazian.
Dr. White is beyond my ken.
But I know that if it comes out decent
I'll wish I'd taken notes and try it again!

Don't know much about sanitizing.
Don't know why my beer keeps oxidizing.
Don't know if esters are good or not.
Don't know if I need a bigger brewpot.

(Chorus x2)

There it is, for what it's worth.

Bob Schaffer-Neitz
Northumberland, PA
375, 102.6 (apparent)



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Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:28:42 -0500 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Czech and Pilsner yeasts (question)

Darrell, when you say that the vial is a year old and you don't want to
pitch it alone, you seem to imply that you have a vial of the other that
you would use.  Personally, I'd grow up a large starter for either one,
especially since you are brewing a lager.  If the old vial has any
viable yeast cells you can go through several iterations of starters to
get the amount of yeast you need without having to resort to using
additional yeast strains.   Mixing strains seems to be a different
question and the results might be interesting, but the key is a large,
healthy volume of yeast no matter the strain.  

Dave Houseman
SE PA








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Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:43:59 -0500
From: "Patrick Finerty Jr." <pjf at finerty.net>
Subject: Re: Stability Testing Wort

On Saturday 5 January, 2002, John Pendergast wrote:

 > DO NOT under any circumsataces taste any unfermented wort product that has
 > been left unrefrigerated for ant peroid of time!  This is a great way to get
 > food poisoning and die.  There are no known pathogens that can live in beer
 > so the fermented product is safe without refrigeration, but without the
 > yeast bacteria that can kill you can develop in the wort

Ok. This was a completely excessive response. One must assume that
someone will not taste something that smells bad and, while the
bacteria that cause food poisoning do not necessarily produce bad
odors, they will make the solution cloudy and will likely be
accompanied by bacteria that do produce bad odors.

There are very few bacteria that can kill you after ingesting very
small amounts. Perhaps Clostridium botulinum (botulism) comes to mind
but that is a strict anaerobe and would not be present in wort.

I say use your head, eyes and nose. If it looks cloudy or has a foul
odor, use caution. If not, have a taste (and spit it out if it tastes
wrong)! One of the more likely contaminants of wort (which is an
acidic medium) is wild yeast. This will not kill you (ask any woman).

Categorical responses are best told to those who cannot think for
themselves. They do nothing to promote thoughtful discussion.

 -p


- -- 
Patrick J. Finerty, Jr., Ph.D.
Forman-Kay Laboratory
Hospital for Sick Children
Toronto, ON, Canada
http://finerty.net/pjf


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Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:24:21 -0600
From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net>
Subject: Hint of Smoke

Rick Foote asks:  "What is the flavor threshold for smoked malt in a five
gallon batch?  What is the minimum needed to reach a discernible level?  I
know there are lots of variables.  To reduce some of these, lets assume
fresh, commercial rauch
malt (Weyermann).  Just get me within spittin' distance.  Thanks."

The simple answer is one pound.  This is what we use in the five gallon
recipe for "Ein Hauch von Rauch," a pilsener-style beer with "a hint of
smoke."  Works out to about 11 percent of the grist for those who look at
things that way.

The resulting beer will have just enough smoke to pick out if you know it is
there or have a really acute palate.  By half-way through the glass you will
have become accustomed to it and won't even notice it.

Smaller amounts are sometimes used by Bamberg-area brewers, but then most
people can't pick out the smoke as a specific flavor element.  Nonetheless
it adds additional complexity and character to the beer and can be very
effective in that role.

Ray Daniels - [197.8, 264.2] Apparent Rennerian
Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer
Director, Brewers Publications

Don't Miss:
Real Ale Festival - Feb 27 - March 2, 2002 - Chicago, IL
www.realalefestival.com



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Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 15:02:17 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Barley Wine Fermentation 

John Wrote: 
    John> The stuff took off within a few hours.  ... The stuff is
    John> still in the primary and is very cloudy.  ... there are still
    John> globs of stuff running around in there and the cloudy look
    John> suggests active fermentation. It bubbles every few seconds.

    John> My question is this: ... Should I rack
    John> to the secondary to avoid off flavors?

>>>>> "susan" == susan (dave?) woodall <woodsusa at moscow.com> responds:

    susan> It sounds like you have the problem is chill haze.  You
    susan> could raise the fermentation temp a little and that will go
    susan> away. 


I disagree.  It's still fermenting.  The cloudiness is yeast.

To address John's question, if you're worried, then rack it off the
trub.  In that case, you may want to rack again after fermentation is
pretty much done.  On the other hand, at 65 degrees, you can probably
leave it sit for another month if you want to, with no ill effects.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)



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Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 15:10:29 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Stability Testing Wort

John Pendergast writes ...

>Somebody made the following statement yesterday
That was me John.

>>I just moved to a place with well water, so I've got two stability tests
>>underway.   [...] but do let them go until you
>>see infections then sniff and maybe taste the product.
>
>DO NOT under any circumsataces taste any unfermented wort product that has
>been left unrefrigerated for ant peroid of time!  This is a great way to
get
>food poisoning and die.

Whoa there John.  Your comment is about as valid as suggesting no one should
drink water in Central America or own a cat since these can carry illnesses
and they might die die die !   That's just not a realistic level of fear you
are suggesting.

There is nothing dangerous in boiled, imperfectly sterilized wort or in
potable tap water.  The only realistic fear then is that one of the minor
infection organisms which we would commonly consume in small  quantities
would grow to a large number or produce toxins as part of growth in wort.
Some bacteria do require large numbers to cause illness (like salmonella)
while others require growth periods to produce toxins.   When you eliminate
bacteria that won't reproduce in wort or that don't require large numbers to
make you ill, or that could only come from fecal contact, etc - we are left
with a rather small list of problem organisms.  Bacillus cereus for example
appears on grain, it's spores can survive short boil periods and it produces
a toxin that causes mild stomach problems.  Certain Salmonella could
multiply if they were present in wort too  - but the source is usually
animal or fecal matter and that simply shouldn't be present in the test
wort.  There are a few other diarrhea type bugs that might multiply, but I
don't see any lethal bugs that are likely to present.

Think about how we normally start yeast from slants and step it up to
starter size.  This process has similar risk of infection by your
hypothetical lethal bugs as a stability test, yet it never happens.  Wild
yeasts and lactobacilli are by far the most numerous pests in wort stability
tests.  I suspect it's because they are the most prolific fermenters of the
lot, quickly out-reproducing the others and have the ability to handle
maltose.  If either takes over then the lowered pH will handle most of he
obnoxious competition.

Yes, there is a chance that you could pick up a mild case of "the runs",
but just how great is that risk ?   Recently (1999, 2000) the FDA has
required "labeling only" for unpasteurized fruit juices and cider.   These
fluids carry very similar risks as the wort in stability tests.  These fruit
juices carry an additional danger in that there have been a couple cases of
E.coli 0157:H7 and cryptosporidea in  apple/orange juice, where it appears
that fallen ("drop") fruit was contaminated with cattle fecal matter.  This
added danger of fecal organism contamination was the reason for requiring
warning labels.  There was also an outbreak of Salmonella ss. Meunchen in
unpasteurized orange juice.  Cause unknown but fecal contamination likely.

Anyway my advice stands.   Let the wort stability tests run then give it the
sniff test.  *Usually*  it will smell like either a somewhat 'off' beer or
wine fermentation or a lactic (sour mash) fermentation - somewhat
Lambic-like tho' often with a good wiff of DMS.  If that's the case and
you're a reasonably healthy adult then it's about as safe to taste as any
naturally fermented product - Lambics, hard cider, kraut, kimchee.  If it
smells like cabbage, rotting veggies or a sewer - then I'd skip the taste
test for a lot of reasons.  Yes there is a chance you could get some gastric
upset from this procedure, but I suspect it's about as likely as problems
with unpasteurized juices or alfalfa sprouts.

>There are no known pathogens that can live in beer
>so the fermented product is safe without refrigeration, but without the
>yeast bacteria that can kill you can develop in the wort

I think this talk of lethal bugs is inspired by some of the extreme FDA/USDA
literature that would have you believe that a carrot kept for 6 hours above
40F is a hazardous (yes really!).  I'd like to hear from a Jim Liddil or
someone equally expert on the topic.

 -S
cc: Jim Liddil




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Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 21:37:08 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Barley wine HELP

"Mauricio Wagner" <mwagner at alean.com.ar> writes from Buenos Aires, Argentina

>I'm trying to brew my first ALL GRAIN - Barley wine.

I trust this is your first all grain barley wine, not your first all 
grain brew of any sort.

>1) We don't have access to the British Pale malt. We use as base malt the
>one used by the Big Boys here, PILSEN MALT.
>Do I have to take in account something with this change?

Modern pilsner malts I am familiar with can be mashed at a single 
temperature infusion mash with fine results, although they often are 
step mashed.  However, I know that some Australian malts, for 
example, are malted to leave higher than normal residual 
unfermentables in order to balance the 100% fermentable sugar that 
Australian beers use.  I suspect that this would not be the case with 
Argentine malts.  Are your domestic pilsner style beers all malt or 
do they use cereal adjunct such as maize or rice?

>2) Which liquid YEAST you suggest me to use? and other alternatives?
>
>Also what do you think for this use about the dry Yeast from SAFALE or
>Nottingham?

I have been happy with any of the British ale yeasts I've used, but 
Nottingham might be a good choice for such a high gravity beer.  I 
dislike it for normal strength beers as it ferments out too much for 
my taste.  HBDer Rob Moline (doesn't post much these days) brewed a 
gold medal winning barley wine five years ago or so at a brewpub 
using Nottingham followed by champagne yeast.  I think this was the 
first most of us had heard of Lallemand's Danstar dry yeasts.

>3) I'll try to use the following malt Bill.
>
>#9      Pilsen Malt
>#0.5   Crystal 70 Lobibond
>#0.5   Munich

That won't make much barley wine - maybe 8-10 liters, depending on 
how much you are willing to boil it down.  Did you perhaps mean kgs 
instead of # (pounds)?  That would make close to the usual 19 liter 
batch.

The crystal and Munich will add unfermentables, which isn't 
necessarily desirable in the case of barley wine, in which it is 
often hard to get fully fermented.  But they will also give greater 
complexity and some caramel maltiness.  I definitely think that some 
dark malt is a good idea.  I once made an all pale malt barley wine 
which seemed flabby and lacking bite.  The addition of some dark ale 
helped.  If you wanted to add a bit of chocolate or even a very 
little black malt, that might help in that direction.

>I have also Wheat malt. Do you suggest to add it? Let say to add #0.5 to the
>malt bill.?

I don't think that would add anything.  It's often added to help head 
retention by adding a little extra protein.  You'll have lots of 
protein.

>Do you suggest to add or change anything? I want to get a 10% alcohol in
>Volume.
>(approx.)

That will be a challenge.  be sure to use lots of healthy yeast. 
Danstar's Nottingham might be a good choice here since it's easy to 
get lots of yeast in prime condition that way.  Pitch 3 packs in 19 
liters, or even 4.

>4) Do I try to be during mashing below 65 Centigrades or higher (more
>fermentables or not)?
>I use single step infusion.

I would go for 65, then add some boiling water to raise to 70C if you can.

>5) water to grain relation for mashing? 2 liter /Kg is Ok?

That's a little stiff, but if you do a two step mash, that should 
work for starters, then add more boiling water to boost to 70C.

Good luck.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 20:02:59 -0700
From: Roger & Roxy Whyman <rwhyman at mho.com>
Subject: FYI

Hello fellow brewers,

A story and then someone may be able to explain why.

On Dec 22, my wife ordered a Maxichiller from Precision Brewing Systems
in NY. On the 23rd we received an order conformation that appears to be
computer generated. On the 31st, I sent an email requesting how was this
sent and do you have a tracking # so that I may check the progress?
Sometime after the new year, my wife called and left a message as to
where is the chiller and why have you not responded to our
communications. We then checked, online, our VISA account and found they
have never charged the card. Anybody know anything about these people?

Lastly, who makes a similar chiller and do you have a web site or phone
#

Cheers,
Roger Whyman
Parker, CO
Somewhere west of Jeff, and a little south, too







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---