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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: How Did You Start All-Grain?/Overdue note ... ("Steve Alexander")
  First All Grain Batch (ProfessorRoe)
  re: Phil's 8" sparge arm (John Schnupp)
  Re: How Did You Start All-Grain? ("Gregor Zellmann")
  Best of Brooklyn V Homebrew Competition ("Kevin Winn")
  Re: Force Carbonation & Keg Cooling (Jay\) Reeves" <jay666 at bellsouth.net>
  Critiques/Beta test my web page. ("Walter H. Lewis III")
  Re: purchases we wish we hadn't made ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  RE: how did you start All Grain ("Steven Parfitt")
  RE: Phil's 8" sparge arm ("Paul Kensler")
  Re: How Did You Start All-Grain? (John DeCarlo)
  RE:New Thread- purchases we wish we hadn't made.................. ("Leonard, Phil")
  Re: Higher gravity problems. (John DeCarlo)
  high gravity brews (Marc Sedam)
  "Super" IPAs (Paul Shick)
  my first AG recipe (Marc Sedam)
  Re: How Did You Start All-Grain? ("Pete Calinski")
  Re: Sister Star IPA (Demonick)
  Raspberry flavoring (stewart.pounds)
  Re: purchases we wish we hadn't made (Demonick)
  going all grain (carlos benitez)
  RE:  How Did You Start All-Grain? (Mark Kempisty)
  Purchases we wish we hadn't made.................. ("Houseman, David L")
  Cleaning soda kegs and hops (Jeff)
  First All-Grain / Buyer's Remorse (mohrstrom)
  Ass-cendent Nuances (mohrstrom)
  First all grain set up/Sister Star of the Sun (Dave Kerr)
  Sister Star of the Sun (Bill Tobler)
  Keep Your Powder Dry (mohrstrom)
  Meadllennium V - Call for entries ("Donald D. Lake")
  Re: How Did You Start All-Grain? (Dan.Stedman)


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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 00:12:22 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: How Did You Start All-Grain?/Overdue note ...

Dan Wenger writes ...

>So what I'm asking the collective, is to wax historical on *your* first
>all-grain system. What was your first setup? Did it work? What is your
>advice for a super cheap, relatively simple, but somewhat effective AG
>system?

My first AG system was like your suggestion, Dan.  A zapap (2 - 5gal
buckets, one with holes drilled thru bottom).  The mash came off fine,but
the zapap stuck soundly.  Maybe the holes were too small, maybe some of the
grist was overcrushed.  I emptied the sieve, drilled more holes while the
mash waited, and tried again and ended up with about 4 gal of semi-clear
wort at about 1.035 (way low of target).  The rest of the process worked
well and the flavor was definitely superior to the extract brews I had been
making.

Did it work ?  Not well really, but well enough to tell me I should go
further.  Also the 2 bucket system is as cheap as it gets.  With a properly
made one and a little practice you can get results as good as any other
system which doesn't use pump recirculation.

For more advanced systems I'm enamoured of insertion manifolds and also
RIMS.
Speaking of Klein bottles and other manifolds ....
=====

John Palmer was kind enough to send me a copy of "How to Brew", 2nd ed.
a few months ago and I've been too busy  to brew,  much less read
about brewing until this past month.  John's book is an expansion of his
"How to Brew" eBook at http://www.howtobrew.com/ .  If you like the
stuff on his website you'll love the 2nd edition hardcopy.

I've always liked John's friendly and practical style of writing, both on
HBD and in his brewing articles, but the organization of the book is
notable.
One difficulty when writing about HB is that the audience is at all
differing skill and knowledge levels, and it's tempting when writing about
the basics to start explaining the background information - and suddenly
your in deep technical issues with many open questions.  It's a mistake I
regularly make.    John has somehow avoided this pitfall by presenting
details as they are needed but not before.  The first section covers the
basics through extract brewing, the second section covers partial mash and
the third covers all-grain brewing.  Any of these first three sections (225
pp total) could easily stand alone as a guide on its subject.  There is
development from basics to the more complex, but there isn't a lot of
cross-referencing between.  Section 4 covers style, recipe design and
troubleshooting.  A 58 page appendix covers several technical topics and
home-built hardware issues in great detail.

When he sent the book, John asked me if I considered it a beginners' book.
It is in the sense that I wouldn't hesitate to hand this book to someone
considering a first brew, a first partial mash or a first all-grain and
expect
a good outcome.  It is complete and direct and detailed enough for use by
beginners.   OTOH this book also covers more advanced topics.  Some
methods, like decoction, are given short tho' competent coverage, while
others more current topics like no-sparge, first wort hopping and hopping
calculation are given substantial coverage.   It seems to strike the right
balance between "too basic" and "too complex" topics and attacks the issues
that arise repeatedly on HBD headlong with a practical approach.

As regular HBDers would expect of John, the appendix on brewing metallurgy
is excellent, covering everything from welding to yeast metallic
ion reqs in the same breath.  The other unparalleled appendix topic is
lauter design and construction.   There is a detailed practical manifold
design that would make an excellent cooler/lauter unit.  This is integrated
with a nicely graphical coverage of John's original fluid flow grainbed work
and experiments (these were presented on HBD some months ago).  This is
absolutely the best coverage I've seen in print on lauter design/fluid-flow
issues, far beyond what you'll find in M&BS and Kunze's presentations, yet
tailored to the practical issues of HB level hardware design.

John has a book with almost encyclopedic coverage of HB issues yet it gives
sufficient detail of the majority of topics for direct practical
application.  A great practical resource for HBing IMO.

 -Steve





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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 02:41:37 EST
From: ProfessorRoe at cs.com
Subject: First All Grain Batch

I had the great fortune to be guided by my father, who was a
master home brewer, and smart enough to know just what level
of complexity I was ready for after brewing 3 or 4 extract kits ...
which were all fine. I wanted to brew a light lager, hard to do
properly with extracts-or at least that was my excuse.

I used the "easy masher" installed in the bottom of a 7.5 gallon
SS brew kettle on my Coleman stove for the mash, then put a
plastic saucer on top of the grain bed and did the "slip and slide"
lauter with the sparge water in a pot on top of a milk crate on my
kitchen counter, gravity fed into the "easy masher" kettle on the
counter then gravity fed to the primary fermenter pail on a chair.
Worked absolutely flawlessly, was effortless and satisfying, got
the proper calculated extraction, chilled, pitched and made a good
Pilsner.  

JR.


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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 00:54:07 -0800 (PST)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Phil's 8" sparge arm

Gene is having problems with his sparge arm,

>I have a three level brew tree and I am using a 8" Phil's sparge arm. My
>problem is that my sparge arm stops turning when I'm trying to sparge. I
>don't know if it defective or if I just don't have enough gravity drop from
>my HLT to force it to turn. 

If the arm spins freely "dry" it should work with water flowing thru it.
You do have the plugs in each end don't you.  The water should be exiting the
holes at an angle.  From there physics takes over (Newton's 3rd Law) and the
arm spins.  If the water is coming straight down then the arm will not spin.  

Maybe you have a defective one.  If that is the case I'm sure Dan will work
with you to get you a good one.


=====
John Schnupp, N3CNL
??? Hombrewery
[560.2, 68.6] Rennerian
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200, Horse with no Name



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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:00:11 +0100
From: "Gregor Zellmann" <gregor at blinx.de>
Subject: Re: How Did You Start All-Grain? 

Hey this thread is fun. There seem to be so many ways to do all grain brews.

I am brewing my 40th batch in my first ag setup next Saturday. Thought about
the design for quite a while and also got a lot of input and advice from
brewing buddies.

I still use 2 50 litre sanke beer kegs each cut open and with a valve
attached close to the bottom as my main vessels. I use another 10 litre ss
pot for heating sparge water. My batch sizes are usually 40-45 litres. I
mash and boil on my big balcony.

I am a kettle masher. I mash in the grains in one of the big pots and can do
as many steps as I like by carefully applying direct heat from my propane
burner. I built a copper pipe manifold for lautering sparging. It is screwed
inside to the opening of the keg which holds the valve on the outside. When
mashing it is folded to the side of the pot, so that I can also stir the
bottom of the pot to ensure good heat distribution to the whole mash and to
avoid a scorched mash. When I am finished with mashing and attempting to
lauter/sparge, I swing the copper manifold down into position with my
brewing paddle and I wrap two big foam camping mats around the vessel for
heat insulation and attach an insulated lid too. In the meanwhile I have
heated the first 10 litres of sparge water on a second propane burner...
After having collected half of the wort, I already start heating the wort in
the second converted keg. I chill my wort with a self made immersion chiller
in the brewing kettle and then start a siphon into the fermenters. I wrapp a
ss scrubby around the opening which goes into the kettle, to filter the wort
and leave hops and hot and cold break in the kettle. this works very well,
as long I use whole hops and not pellets. Aeration of the cold wort, prior
to pitching was done by letting the wort splash into the fermenters and by
shaking the (plastic) fermenters. (I bought an aquarium pump, filter and
aeration stone just recently after I encountered a pretty sluggish
fermentation of a high gravity IPA for the first time)

This system works really well for me, my efficiency is between 82 and 88%
and I brewed many batches of very good beer. But nothing is automated, so I
have to stand a lot beside my kettles and stir and check temerature, etc.

On the long run I dream of a RIMS or the like. Something that saves me a bit
time.

cheers

Gregor
[4247.6, 43.4] Apparent Rennerian

On a sidenote: I was a bit disappointed, that I didn't get a single answer
on my questions about cloning a Guiness Special Export Stout a few days ago.
Did nobody here try to emulate this style?





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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:12:01 -0500
From: "Kevin Winn" <krewbrew at mindspring.com>
Subject: Best of Brooklyn V Homebrew Competition

The Malted Barley Appreciation Society will be hosting its fifth annual
homebrew competition, Best of Brooklyn V, on February 23, 2002 at the
Brooklyn Brewery.  This AHA sanctioned event will continue the tradition
of providing quality judging and rewarding brewers with a prize for first,
second, and third place in each category.

There will again be a First Time Contestant's Best of Show.  Entries will be
due by February 15, and several drop off points will be provided.  Visit our
website at http://hbd.org/mbas/bob2002.html or contact Kevin Winn at
krewbrew at mindspring.com for more information.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 06:14:22 -0600
From: "James \(Jay\) Reeves" <jay666 at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Force Carbonation & Keg Cooling

>Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 22:53:57 -0800 (PST)
>From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: Force Carbonation & Keg Cooling
>
>dropped to nearly zero at the tap.  There are those who say that you
>MUST use ONLY beer line.  I call BS on that.  Any food grade line will
>work, *however* the pressure drop will likely not be the same.  In fact,
>use the quoted pressure drops as guidelines only.  Manufacturing
>differences batch/batch and manufacturer/manufacturer will surely
>result in different specs.

John's right, the specs are going to be a major factor whether you can use
normal food-grade tubing or not.  If you can successfully us the tubing at
your local hardware store, great!  In my case, I can't because it caused it
to foam no matter what and I had to go to the more expensive beer-line to
stop the foaming.

Several years back when I was "teething" on kegging and dispensing, I spoke
with a representative at Rehau in Leesburg, VA about this (they make tubing
for various applications - beer being one of them).  I was told that the
reason for the foaming with the normal food-grade tubing was because there
are irregularities that are on the surface walls that are not present in
"beer line".  These irregularities were creating turbulence and knocking the
CO2 out of solution on the way to the tap (a glass full of foam).  Beer-line
is made to a different spec than normal food-grade tubing - it's surface is
much smoother.

Another difference in beer-line and normal food-grade tubing is it's ability
to not impart a taste in the beer.  One thing I noticed about the food-grade
tubing I used briefly was that the beer that sat in the lines for an hour or
two had a distinctly different taste.  You could clear the lines before you
pour, but I don't like to waste my hard work like that.

So, if you can successfully use food grade tubing, do it, it's cheaper.  But
if you experience uncontrollable foaming at the tap, that's likely your
problem.

 -Jay Reeves
Huntsville, AL




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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 08:21:35 -0500
From: "Walter H. Lewis III" <wlewis at alliedlogistics.com>
Subject: Critiques/Beta test my web page.

I've been hacking at a web page about my HERMS system. Though it isn't
officially up I'd appreciate comments from HBD.

Take a look at

>http://users.ezwv.com/~wlewis/beer/evolution_of_my_herms_system.htm

Thanks for your comments.

Walt



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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 08:55:42 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Re: purchases we wish we hadn't made

David Craft asks:

>"What are some of your equipment
>purchase mistakes that you wish you could take back?"

>We all have them, though in hind site many of them were things we have
>outgrown and don't use or need any more. They may not have been mistakes at
>the time, though could we have bypassed them and saved some money.

I'd have to say that mine is the two-handled plastic bottle capper.  It
worked fine, got me through my first few batches, and only occasionally
screwed up a cap.  The problem is that it only caps bottles of a certain
type.  Then I got an old bench capper that my father used to bottle root
beer with when he was a kid.  It caps anything and does not screw up.  It
was the perfect solution for those wonderful 1/2 liter european bottles used
for wheat beers and Belgians.  Plus, IT'S MADE OUT OF METAL!

I think this post should be balanced with the best purchase also.  For this
I would have to say that every time I use Primetabs, it brings a smile to my
face.  All the measuring, preparation and fiddling with priming sugar
calculations in the English system of measurement for only a few bottles
make me turn purple.  But counting is easy.  2 or 3 tabs per bottle and
there's no measuring!  I can keg and save a few naturally carbonated bottles
at the same time.

Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen A. Pannicke

glen at pannicke.net          http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F  214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"I have made this letter longer than usual,
because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal




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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 08:55:47 -0500
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: how did you start All Grain

Hmmm.. since we are waxing on starts..

I first  actually made wine like many of the HBD members. Back in '69' you 
had to have a license to brew (from the BATF no less) and my father as "Head 
of Houshold" was kind enough to humor me. I started with Plumb wine which 
was nicknamed "Embalming Fluid" by my friends. By '76' I was into extract 
brewing (Beadle Brew anyone?, Charlie was a much greater help), and 
continued making (Psuedo)Beer till a bicycling accident in '98' distracted 
me from my hobby (can't lift a carboy with a broken leg). In November of 
2000 a buddy of mine who knew I used to brew recommended I attend the local 
HBC (State of Franklin Homebrewers), and I was once again hooked. I began 
reading everything I could get my hands on and was amazed at the differnece 
in brewing since I had last read anything about it. When I joined the club, 
I told my fiance that "I'm not really interested in AG, just partial mash." 
Ha..ha..ha.....

Within six months I was working on my AG design, and finished it in June of 
2001.

So... the upshot is that my first AG was in a converted half-barrel system. 
Of all recipes to try the first go, I decided on a pLambic. I'm tweaking the 
recipe for the second batch of pLambic which I hope to start within the 
week.  When the second batch finishes primary, I'm going to rack the first 
batch to glass aging tanks, and rack the second batch into the plastic 
fermenters the first was racked out of.

I recently converted a 5 gallon Gott style cooler by adding a Zymico Bazooka 
Screen (NAYAYA)and a valve to it. The Bazooka seems wrok quite well for the 
two batches I have done so far. I use it to do small test batches. I would 
recomend the 10 gallon rather than the 5 gallon cooler if you are going that 
way. The 5 gallon cooler was almost half full when I put 10lbs of grain in 
it (yield was 5.5 gallons of 1.048 beer). Getting a 1.074 IPA out of it 
could be touchy.

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN 5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck





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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:31:06 -0500
From: "Paul Kensler" <pkensler at home.com>
Subject: RE: Phil's 8" sparge arm

>I have a three level brew tree and I am using a 8" Phil's sparge arm. My
>problem is that my sparge arm stops turning when I'm trying to sparge.

Gene,
This might be a long shot, but it happened to me and might be worth checking
out...  I hope I can describe this right...
My Phil's sparge arm has a little ball of solder at the bottom of the
rotating arm - if you look at it, it makes sense because this little ball of
solder is what keeps the rotating arm "connected" to the vertical down-pipe.
Anyway, that little ball of solder got a little bent out of shape on my
sparge arm and slightly crimped up against the arm, preventing it from
rotating freely.  I gently pulled it downwards with some needlenose pliers,
and that fixed the problem.

By the way, my sparge arm rotates very easily, even when I have the sparge
rate restricted to a slow flow - I have to restrict it to a mere trickle
(the water just drips out of the holes) to stop the arm from rotating at
all.


Hope this helps,
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD




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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:41:48 -0500
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at mitre.org>
Subject: Re: How Did You Start All-Grain?

Hello,

I reaped the benefits of the homebrew community in the early 90s.  By
then, we had figured out that most of the information in Papazian's
books was (how can I say this diplomatically?) sub-optimal.

So, I bought some copper tubing already coiled at the hardware store,
cut some slots in the bottom, and put it in my stovetop mash/lauter
tun.  Mashed on the stove and lautered there as well.  Note that part of
the copper tubing without slots was carefully bent to come out of the
mash/lauter tun.

When it came time to sparge and collect the liquid, I connected plastic
tubing to the copper tubing and started to collect the wort in another
pot into which I would dip the wort chiller.  

A little bit of care to not introduce a lot of HSA, and I was all set.

I never got around to a more advanced set up, either.

- -- 
John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own



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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 08:49:44 -0600
From: "Leonard, Phil" <Phil.Leonard at dsionline.com>
Subject: RE:New Thread- purchases we wish we hadn't made..................

Mine would be plastic buckets (the ones with spouts on the side) and
swing-top bottles.  It seems the only thing I use the plastic buckets for
now is to store the no longer used swing-top bottles in.  Anyone near Kansas
City need any swing-top's?

Philip



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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:47:21 -0500
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Higher gravity problems.

Hello,

John_Fraser/User/NWExternal at Nationwide.com writes:
>I have had several brews fail to ferment out to the required FG.

I have had great success with high gravity brews by swirling the
contents of the fermenter several times a day during the first few days
of fermentation.  It has always resulted in the FG being where the
recipe called for.

There must be something about the higher gravity worts that makes it
harder for enough yeast to stay in suspension - either you need more in
suspension than is normal, or they sink faster, or something else.

Anyway, empirically swirling has always helped me.  I even made the same
recipe again under the same circumstances, only adding the step of
swirling the contents of the fermenter, and went from a high FG to a
normal FG.

Others have been able to sanitize a large plastic stick and stir up the
fermenter.  Because I got my glass fermenter shipped to me, I saved the
styrofoam container it was shipped in and always stored the fermenter in
the lower half while fermenting.  Thus I didn't worry about breaking the
glass while swirling.

- -- 
John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own



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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:13:10 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: high gravity brews

John Fraser writes of high terminal gravity brews...

You've hit the single biggest PITA about brewing with
extracts...you have no idea how fermentable the extract is
SUPPOSED to be, so you may wind up with higher FGs than you
want.  Fortunately the solution is pretty easy.

Bring the fermenter to a warm place in the house (~70F).  Go
to any HB supply shop and get some "amylase enzyme" also
sold places as "pilsner enzyme".  Sprinkle the enzyme in
your fermenter (or add drops...some enzyme is sold liquid)
and make sure it's dispersed.  Sit back and wait!

The potential downside of this method is that you can't stop
the enzyme from breaking down large sugars/dextrins into
fermentable sugars.  You *could* wind up with a lower FG
than you want too, although anything below 1.010 would be
odd.  But it's certainly better than 1.030.

Cheers!

- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:25:11 -0600
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: "Super" IPAs


Hi all,

	Chris Dodge asks about whether a faithful version
of Dave Brockington's "Sister Star of the Sun" IPA will be
drinkable with "all those hops."

	Chris, I've made a few off-the-chart IPAs lately,
and I'm firmly convinced that you can make a very drinkable
version, even with around 100 IBUs, as long as you provide
a firm malt backbone to balance all the bitterness and hop
flavor.  People who've made versions of Dave's SSOS have 
estimated the bitterness at 80+ IBUs, which would be undrinkable
in a beer with less malt to balance it.

	My most recent shot in this direction was an attempt
motivated by what friends have told me about Moylan's "Double
Imperial IPA," which blew them away at the GABF this past fall.
Based on their descriptions, I put together the recipe which
follows.  In it, I was aiming for a "mini-barleywine" IPA, with
a ton of maltiness to balance the (ahem) assertive hopping.  Past
beers done with this in mind have finished a tad on the sweet side,
probably because there's so much Munich malt in the grist.  To
avoid this here, I used the Wyeast 1007 alt yeast, which gives a
very dry finish.  Here's the recipe:

	Imperial IPA  (10 gallons)

13 lbs Paul's pale ale malt
12 lbs Weissheimer Munich
1 lb Munton's 90L crystal

All this mashed with 8.5 gallons filtered water, with 2 tsp gypsum,
doughed in  at  150F, rest 30 minutes, slowly heating and recirculating
to hit 158F at 45 minutes, then 164F  at  70 minutes, runoff.  Sparge
with 172F water with 1.5 tsp 10% phosphoric acid.  (This water 
treatment works for my water, moderate-moderately hard Cleveland
municipal plant.)  (With this much Munich in the grist, don't 
dough in at too high a temperature, or you'll end up with an
overly-sweet beer.  Remember, alcohol is a bit sweet in its own
right.)

The hopping schedule:

3 oz Centennial (10.9%) First Wort Hop
4 oz Centennial (10.9%) 60 minutes
1 oz Centennial (10.9%), 2 oz Fuggles (5.4%) 10 minutes
4 oz Fuggles, steep while cooling.  (All leaf hops from Freshops.)

The yeast was Wyeast 1007 altbier, dregs of batch from a Kolsch.

Ferment  at  68F-64F for two weeks (in SS conical,) then to carboys
 at 60F for 2 weeks.  (Keg half, bottle half.)

This worked out to 10 gallons at OG 1.076, FG 1.018.  (I run off
very quickly, so my efficiency is a bit lower than it might be.
I actually brewed 11+ gallons, but lost a fair bit of wort in
this mass of hops.  On the other hand, this amount of hops in 
the kettle is going to cause enough astringency that you want 
to avoid as much grain husk astringency as you can, so don't
oversparge.)

The beer is still maturing, but it's shockingly good (at least
to me) at this point.  Of course, the initial taste is a ton
of bitterness and hop flavor, but the malt seems to balance it
very nicely.  The Tinseth calculation gives an estimate of 101
IBUs, even cvorrecting for the high gravity.  More naive estimates
go up toward 150 IBUs!  After brewing this monster, though, my
next effort was a 20-25 IBU Munich Helles, just to bring a little
equilibrium back into my life.

So, Chris, it's possible to make a balanced beer with tons of IBUs.
Assuming you like hops, go for the Brockington recipe.

		Paul Shick,
		Cleveland Heights, Ohio


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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:30:02 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: my first AG recipe

This is a question akin to "what was your first
car"...definitely brings back memories good and bad.

I jumped into AG brewing with my sixth batch.  My first set
of AG equipment was the Zapap lauter tun described in the
New Complete Joy of Homebrewing.  I drilled a bunch of holes
until the drill bit broke.  I brewed with this twice, got
pissed off, and ordered an Easymasher.  The "Easymasher in
bucket" approach worked for five years worth of brewing.  My
brewpot was an enameled cast iron pot which lasted for my
first three years.  My wife bought me a 7.5gal SS pot which
I still use and was only recently replaced with a 15gal pot.

I brewed with that first system (total cost ~ $40) for about
five years.  Worked like a champ.  AG brewing can be done on
the cheap.

- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:30:09 -0500
From: "Pete Calinski" <pcalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Re: How Did You Start All-Grain?

Well, I pretty much still do it the way I started.  I use plastic buckets
for mash, lauter and boil.  I have access to 7 gallon plastic buckets.  I
fit them all with faucets.  I prefer the replacement faucets for hot water
heaters.  They never leak even at boiling temperatures and give finer
control for lautering.  Cost around $1.65 each plus a PVC fitting on the
inside.

For mash/lauter, I made a false bottom out of the bottom of a plastic
bucket.  I used a hot soldering iron to melt holes on a 3/8" x 3/8" grid.
Originally it was the bottom of a zapap but it kept sucking air around the
top.  So, I cut the bottom 1.5" off the inner bucket and use that as a false
bottom.  The original zapap was a 5 gallon bucket so the outside diameter
was slightly smaller than the 7 gallon buckets I now use.  I invert the
bottom and cut a notch that fits around the inner part of the faucet.  That
leaves it about 1 1/4" above the bottom of the bucket.  I wrap the mash tun
with a few revolutions of plastic bubble wrap to keep in the heat. I also
stuck some plastic bubble wrap to the lid.  Since I use heatsticks:


http://hbd.org/pcalinsk/HeatStk3.htm


 for all my heating and boiling, I can add a little heat to maintain
temperature if needed.  I can step mash either by adding heat with a
heatstick or from a HLT (also a plastic bucket with heatsticks).

When the mash is complete, I lauter into another plastic bucket (with a
faucet).  When I get a few inches of wort in the bucket I drop in a heat
stick and start bringing it up to boiling temperature.  When the lauter is
complete, the wort is near boiling already.  I unwrap the mash/lauter tun
and wrap the bubble wrap on the boil bucket.  Drop in another heatstick and
I have a full boil in a few minutes.  Add the wort chiller:

http://hbd.org/pcalinsk/Chiller.htm

to sanitize it during the boil.

When the boil is done, I run cold tap water through the chiller.  If the tap
water isn't cold enough to get to the final temperature I want. I fill the
(now cleaned) mash tun with ice and blue ice from the freezer and top off
with water.  When this water is cold, I switch from tap water to this
prechilled water.

After chilling, since the boil bucket has a faucet, I just run the wort into
the fermenter.  I seem to get enough aeration by just letting the wort
drizzle 2-3 feet from the boil pot to the fermenter.

A nice thing about the plastic buckets is how easy it is to measure volume.
I used a magic marker to make rings around the buckets in one gallon
increments.  I can either see the wort level through the sides of the bucket
for darker beers or, for lighter beers, I look in the bucket and move my
finger down the outside.  I can see the shadow of my finger and when it
reaches the liquid level, I see how it lines up with the rings.

Seems to work for me.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:38:31 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Sister Star IPA

Many years ago I had Dave Brockington's Sister Star, brewed by himself. It
was one of his batches that won one of his many awards.  It was awesome.  
Yes, it's bitter.  Yes, it's hoppy.  But, it was good.

If you are worried about the hopping levels, cut it in half for the
first batch.

Flavor perception is not a linear phenomenon.  A beer at 100 IBUs will
not taste "twice" as hoppy/bitter as one at 50 IBUs.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:37:42 -0500
From: stewart.pounds at gm.com
Subject: Raspberry flavoring

My wife and hers friends are fond of raspberry flavored ales. I pay $5 for a 4oz
bottle of  Hoptech flavoring for a batch of all grain ale that the rest of the
ingredients only costs about $8 and it drives me crazy. Does any one know of a
better deal for this flavoring, I'd be willing to buy it in bulk if necessary.




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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:32:01 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: purchases we wish we hadn't made


A pump.  A magnetical coupled heat resistent food-grade pump.  I bought a
pump for wort to avoid having to siphon and used it maybe 5 times.  What a
pain.  It was not self-priming and would cavitate on green beer and lose
its prime.  How do you prime a non-self-priming pump?  

You siphon.

If you buy a pump, get one that is self-priming.

BTW - I've added a formulas and code section of the web pages below. 

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:49:08 -0800 (PST)
From: carlos benitez <greenmonsterbrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: going all grain

Hi All !  
  Dan wenger asks about going all grain:
    Like him, I read everything I could find and then
made a "mini-mash" tun out of 2 1 gallon plastic
buckets to try a partial mash for my first try (cost
was minimal -under 10 bucks(US) for the buckts and the
valve - This worked, and gave me the oppurtunity to
get my feet wet without going all the way under (I was
always partial to the baby pool before I joined the
swim team...) At this small amount, it really is only
worth the effort if you're scared. It does give you an
added comfort level but for just a smidge more daring 
 -YOU CAN do the whole batch.  From there, I went to
brewing outside (swmbo doesn't like the the aroma) on
a turkey burner and a converted keg - again I read up
on everything I could find and settled on a design
similar to Vance Saabe's portable brewery (nayyy)
http://www.concentric.net/~vsabbe/portabrew.htm
  I like the fact that I can roll the whole thing away
when I'm done and I have even taken it on the road  to
brew elswhere (it fits in the back of the pickup) - I
really hate priming the pump though...
  Bottom line is like you I enjoy building gadgets and
had almost as much fun building it as brewing with it,
and it was nice to have some guidlines to follow -
cost was about $450-$500 using cpvc rather than
copper... but by all means, two 5 gallon plastic
buckets work well and are a LOT cheaper ! 
   Good luck , Go for it!

=====
BIBIDI !
        Brew It Bottle It Drink It 
       Carlos Benitez - Green Monster Brewing
        Bainbridge, PA,  U.S.A.



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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:00:14 -0500
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: RE:  How Did You Start All-Grain?

Dan Wenger asks:
"So what I'm asking the collective, is to wax historical on *your* first

all-grain system. What was your first setup? Did it work? What is your
advice for a super cheap, relatively simple, but somewhat effective AG
system?"

After doing extract for about six years a new co-worker who had been
doing AG for two years just kept talking about it.  Since he lives only
two miles from me, I went over there on brew day and saw what it took to
do as well as the process.  He had previously convinced me to get a
bigger pot (and requisite burner) so all I needed was a Gott cooler and
I already had just about everything else traditionally used.  We stopped
in a Wal-Mart during lunch and there were the coolers, so I was on my
way.  I made a copper slotted manifold and CPVC bulkhead fitting with
ball valve and we brewed my first AG together.  He then learned how much
easier a ball valve is for lautering, so we've been teaching each other
things.

Since then I have added a few extra pieces of equipment and haven't used
extract except for starters!

Take care,
Mark




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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:24:25 -0600
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Purchases we wish we hadn't made..................

At first I thought, I haven't made any purchases I wish I hadn't made....but
then I remembered -- this oak cask I have that I've never used.  Thought
about putting it out on EBAY, and may still.  Holds about 8.5 gallons.  Will
leak when you first put water in it but does seal up fine; I did that to
make sure it was good before I bought this used cask.  But I've never got
around to using it and it's taking up space in my basement.  Yours for only
$50...comes with decorative base.    Probably best for lambics since I don't
know what was in it prior to my possession.  This tread could lead to more
postings on the HBD flea market.

Dave Houseman
SE PA


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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 08:24:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff <duckinchicago at yahoo.com>
Subject: Cleaning soda kegs and hops

I have two questions for the collective.

1. I bought some cornie kegs recently and they have
that tell tale coke/root beer type smell.  I've tried
an overnight soak in PBW, a soak in One-Step, and have
had it suggested to soak in a solution of dish soap,
but I worry about the clorine content of it.  I've
heard two things, one is-the smell is there for good,
the other is replace the seals and gaskets.  Any
suggestions??

2.  I bought some magnum hop pellets and they came in
a nice sealed vial, but they have a different color
than any other pellets I've seen-more of a yellowish,
almost brown.  Are they bad, or do magnums have a
different color than other hops?

Any suggestions are much appreciated.

Jeff Hertz
Glen Ellyn, IL
(219.4,264.1)




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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:42:01 -0500
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: First All-Grain / Buyer's Remorse

Let's kill two avians with just one chunk of rock ...

David Craft cranks up the issue of buyer's remorse, and George Fergusson
comments in another post:

> You can cook up a kit beer in an hour and a
> half from start to finish but an all-grain
> beer is going to take a good 5-6 hours whether
> it's 2 gallons or 10.

After observing a couple of all-grain brews done by others, I came to that
same realization.  When I decided to go all-grain, I gave myself one year
to acquire the trappings of a half-barrel brew system.  If you tend to
dabble in hobbies before moving on to the next thing, ignore this advice.
But if you are already a passionate brewer looking to take the next step,
don't shortchange yourself on capacity.  Buy big enough burners, kettles,
etc. the first time around.  Conversely, don't rush to unload your smaller
pots, carboys, etc.  As your interests unfold, you may find that the 20
quart pot is just dandy for doing that turbid mash pLambic.  I did.


Mark in Kalamazoo





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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:51:12 -0500
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Ass-cendent Nuances

SomeDude quotes the dear Mr. Klein:

> "Within the carefully nuanced flavors, the solid malt presence
> is ascendant"
>
> Snark! This guy is killing me!

How would you like to see that comment on your scoresheet?  I had to go out
last night and score one these gems for myself.  Now, every day, I can
giggle along with the rest of you ...


Mark in Kalamazoo




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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:05:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Dave Kerr <dave_kerr2001 at yahoo.com>
Subject: First all grain set up/Sister Star of the Sun

Dan Wenger asked:
"What is your advice for a super cheap, relatively
simple, but somewhat effective AG system?"

I used a Phil's Phalse bottom for the first few years
of all-grain brewing 5 gallon batches - cheap, works
great,  no complaints.  When I scaled up to 10 gallon
batches using a converted Sanke keg, I bought an
EZMasherII - again, no complaints.  The converted keg
system has the added benefit of ramping up mash
temperatures using direct heat.  I still use the
Phil's for the rare 5 gallon batch.

**********************************
Chris Dodge asked for feedback on Sister Star of the
Sun-

I've brewed about 10 variants of Brockington's SSotS
recipe and loved each one.  Lately I've moved to using
Vienna as the base malt for my IPAs while keeping an
aggressive hop schedule using insane amounts of 
Chinook/Centennial/Cascade at all stages of the boil.

Dave Kerr
Needham, MA




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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:06:26 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <WCTobler at brazoria.net>
Subject: Sister Star of the Sun

Chris,
    This is by far the best IPA I have every had.  Brew it once, and you
will brew it again, If  you like IPA's.  The malt and hop profiles mesh
together perfectly.  Brew it, and you will enjoy it.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian





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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:32:22 -0500
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Keep Your Powder Dry

Does anyone have any tips for keeping DME free of lumps and caking?  I like
to use it to build starters, but hate having to break it up to use it.
Geordie-brand DME claim to have a granulated form that doesn't cake.  Can
anyone verify that.  How fermentable is it?
Thanks!

Mark in Kalamazoo



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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:37:13 -0500
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dlake at gdi.net>
Subject: Meadllennium V - Call for entries

Sorry for the late posting but there is still time to gather your Meads
and perpare them for entering in this once a year, AHA Sanctioned,
Mead-only Competition.  Last year's Meadllennium was a tremendous
success with almost 80 entries.  Each year since its conception,
Meadllennium has grown and has quickly becoming the second largest
Mead-only Competition in existence.   Competition is Saturday, January
26th and will be held at Tim's Wine Market in Down Town Orlando.

Entry procedures have been streamlined to make entering the competition
as easy as possible. At a minimum, awards will be presented to 1st, 2nd
and 3rd places in each category. Additionally, an award will be given
for Best of Show and to the Brewer with the most points.  There will
also be an award for the homebrew club with the most points as well as
bonus prizes from Commercial Meaderies that include professionally-made
bottles of mead and T-Shirts.

The entry deadline is Tuesday, January 22nd.

BJCP Style Guidelines are as follows:

A. Traditional Mead
B. Varietal Honey Traditional Mead
C. Cyser (Apple Melomel)
D. Pyment (Grape Melomel)
E. Other Fruit Melomel
F. Metheglin (spice and herb)
G. Braggot
H. Modified-Experimental - includes styles not covered in above
categories.

Ship Entries to:            Meadllennium V
                                 c/o Rockey Markham2247
                                    King John Court
                              Winter Park, Florida 32792

Entries can also be dropped off at Heart's Homebrew Supply in Orlando

Awards Ceremony:   Sunday, February 3, 2002 at 4:30 PM at the Central
Florida Home Brewers monthly meeting (all prizes not presented at the
ceremony will be mailed out within one week).

For entry forms and style guidelines for Meadllennium V go to
www.cfhb.org

If you have any questions call the organizer, Ron Bach at 407-696-2738
or email him at bachian at juno.com.



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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:15:02 -0600
From: Dan.Stedman at PILLSBURY.COM
Subject: Re: How Did You Start All-Grain?



Jeff Renner writes:

>In 1979 I tried a grain bag per Dave Miller's suggestion, but was
>disappointed, so I made a zapap per Charlie Papazian's directions.

In 1979 I was 8 years old & would have gotten a spanking had I tried to make
beer. :-)

I built my first (and current) all-grain system about 3 years ago with the
phrase "go big or don't go" in mind. Fortunately, I had been reading the HBD for
years before as I was learning to create decent extract brews, so I had a really
good idea of how the all-grain process went and which direction to go in regards
to 2-tier vs. ?-tier, CFC vs. immersion chiller, oxygenator vs. aquarium pump,
MaltMill vs. Valley Mill, etc...

So my first all-grain brew was brewed on my two-tier RIMS'ed, Sabco-kettled,
propane-fired, Moving Brews pump & quick disconnect'ed, PBS MaxiChiller'ed,
Oxygenator'ed brewery. I figured that will all of that cool equipment that I
would just be able to crank out one batch after another of stellar beer that my
friends would line up to drink. However, "learning valuable lessons" was pretty
much my theme for the first year, though I've got it all dialed in now and am
down to recipe formulation as my last hurdle before achieving brewing nirvana!

Dan in Minnetonka





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---