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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  NPT locknuts ("Neil K")
  Whirlygigs ("The Holders")
  Water analysis (AJ)
  Thermal Mass Calculation (nlkanous)
  New Orleans Brew Scene ("Lewis, Tim                 HS")
  green bottles ("Fred Scheer")
  RE:  beer, wine, light damage & brown bottles ("Houseman, David L")
  re: Headed to Flordia ("Chad Gould")
  RE: brewing techniques (jal)
  Re: brown malt stout (Jeff Renner)
  Re: CAP Report (Jeff Renner)
  Re: He who falls first must brew a Bud Light (Jeff Renner)
  Rotating Sparge Arm Whirlygigs ("John Zeller")
  To shake or not to shake, that is the question ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Belgian Beer styles ("David Craft")
  RE: To shake or not to shake, that is the question (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  My First All-Grain Batch and a pH question (NM)" <MarkC.Lane at voicestream.com>
  Re: He who falls first... (james.vahsen-phx)
  RE: Thermal mash calculations (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Re: sparge arms ("Kurt Schweter")
  True Love Ale ("Philip Yates")
  Re: CAP Report ("Arnold Neitzke")
  Re: Dark Malt Additions (Wes Smith)
  Tired of All-Grain! (Dan Ippolito)
  Pilsener hopping ("Fred Scheer")
  Puerto Rico (kingkelly)
  Yeast profile questions, St. Patrick's Day Beer.. (Andy Woods)
  Pitchable Tubes & Harvesting (Mark Anderson)


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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 00:34:17 -0500
From: "Neil K" <neilk27 at hotmail.com>
Subject: NPT locknuts

A few days ago, Rob Dewhirst asked about a source for NPT nuts to secure 
bulkhead fittings, etc. Although I haven't ordered anything from them, I 
found them at www.plumbingsupply.com  Go to the stainless steel section from 
the main menu and click on "stainless steel locknuts". The 1/2" NPT locknut 
is US$6.56.  They also have them in brass for US$1.11.

Hope this helps!

Neil Kushnir in Montreal






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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:41:53 -0800
From: "The Holders" <zymie at charter.net>
Subject: Whirlygigs

Dan, the sparge arm man says:

"Sparge arms make sure that there will be no boring of holes in the mash
without the brewer giving the sparge almost constant attention. "

Again, I think this is a crock.

Back in my Zapap mashing days, I just had a hose from the HLT draining
straight onto the grainbed. Did it disturb the grain a little? Yes it did.
Did it matter? NO it didn't.

The only attention that any sparging method should take is keeping the flow
adjusted. Even if you do disturb the top of the grainbed, it won't make any
difference.

If you like watching your whirlygig spin around then go for it, but I have
yet to see any data that supports the validity of sparge arms in
homebrewing.

Break free from the pack and repeat with me:

"Whirlygigs are silly!"

Now, what about lava lamps and brewing?

Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
http://www.zymico.com



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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:17:11 +0100
From: AJ <ajd at zai.com>
Subject: Water analysis

For Matt Dinges:

At pH 7 approximately 80 percent of the carbo (carbo = CARBonic +
biCARBOnate + CARBOnate) is bicarbonate, approximately 20% is carbonic
and there is no carbonate to speak of. Alkalinity is a measure of how
much acid is required to convert all the carbonate and bicarbonate to
carbonic which, in the case of pH 7 is proportional to the amount of
bicarbonate. Alkalinity expressed as ppm CaCO3 is 50 times the number of
milliequivalents of acid required per liter. Thus alkalinity of 145
corresponds to 145/50 = 2.9 meq/L. The equivalent weight of bicarbonate
ion is 61 so the bicarbonate in this water is about 2.9*61=177 mg/L.

The residual alkalinity is a measure of the amount of alkalinity not
neutralized when pale malt reacts with the calcium and magnesium in the
water it is calculated as Alkalinity - (Calcium_Hardness  +
Magnesium_Hardness/2)/3.5 and can be in units of ppm as CaCO3 or meq/L.
Since you only have a total hardness number we use 2/3 of that to get a
rough answer. So
RA = 145 - 2*190/3/3.5  = 102.77. A rule of thumb is to worry about
residual alkalinity when it is greater than 50 as it clearly is here. RA
is combatted either with extra calcium or with acid or a combination of
both. As it takes 3.5 units of calcium hardness (and 7 of magnesium) to
balance 1 unit of alkalinity there is a limit to how much you can do
with extra calcium (or magnesium) besides which sulfate is at a pretty
high level thus limiting the amount of gypsum (or epsom salt) you would
want to add and you can't go too far with chloride either especially as
you have appreciable sodium. Thus acid is the way to go unless you are
doing a style that wants huge amounts of sulfate and can taste a little
salty. Any mineral acid or any of several organic acids can be used for
this purpose though each cation has a potential flavorf impact on the
beer. For this reason it is best to use dark malt as the source of the
acid. Another alternative to the overall problem is to decarbonate the
water first by boiling or lime treatement the latter being more
effective and consequently more difficult.

A.J.



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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:18:24 -0500
From: nlkanous at netscape.net
Subject: Thermal Mass Calculation

Thermal mass of my Sankey keg?  Haven't a clue and don't really care.
But, here's what works for me.  Someone more inclined to pursue the
mathematics may but I'm just not interested because I can hit my target
reasonably well.  Much of what I do is done because it's worked in the
past, not because it's any more correct than what anyone else does, so
take it all with a grain of barley.

In a 10 gallon batch (or 5 for that matter), I prepare my strike water at
1.25 quarts per pound of malt.  I know that the units suck but when I
started brewing this is what I read and it's become repeatable for me.  I
heat the strike water in the Sanke keg to 10 deg F ABOVE my intended mash
temp (yup, that awful measure of deg F).  I dough in the malt and viola' I
hit my mash temp (within reason, with some variability throughout the
mash).

So, 1.25 quarts per pound of malt heated in the mash tun to 10 deg F ABOVE
my mash temp and I'm golden.  Stop by some time for a pint and we'll see
if this technique works okay.

nathan in madison, wi
- -- 






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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:37:52 -0500
From: "Lewis, Tim HS" <tim.lewis at hs.utc.com>
Subject: New Orleans Brew Scene

I am headed to New Orleans in April for a week.  The reviews I read recently
in Pubcrawler for Crescent City Brewhouse and some of the others weren't so
good.  Any recommendations for some good spots? Thanks.

Tim Lewis
Enfield, CT


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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:42:51 -0600
From: "Fred Scheer" <fhopheads at msn.com>
Subject: green bottles


Hi all:
Regarding the postings on green bottles,
for those who remember the beginnings of
Frankenmuth Brewery, we had our Pilsener
in green bottles. Knowing how bad beer
in green bottles from other countries
taste, I had to work on my boss at the time,
to change to brown bottles. Eitherway,
the reflection of the glass is measured
in nanometers, and the glass we had was
less than 530 nm. Knowing that, I only
could imagen, what reflection the German
Beer bottles had when tasting them.
I will investigate how much reflection
the bottles have this days and will
post the same on this forum.
Fred M. Scheer
(10 hour drive [almost] south of Renner)




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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:42:59 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE:  beer, wine, light damage & brown bottles

While I agree with the definition of skunking that Bill Tobler provided,
I wonder if that's the whole story.  Lightstruck or skunky describes a
number of European beers imported into the US.  It's hard to imagine
opening a sealed case that these bottles were lightstruck unless the
brewery does so intentionally prior to packaging to give the beer that
"European flavor."  Rather I suspect that the reaction is due to energy
being imparted to the hops resins in the beer.  Light is one way to
provide that energy.  But heat from a long transport at sea in a cargo
container on the deck of ship may result in the same effect.  These
beers, packaged in green bottles, do not present skunk in Europe but
they many of them do in the US.  I believe the transportation is the
problem but not light.

Dave Houseman
SE PA




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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:51:26 -0500
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: re: Headed to Flordia

> uh.... is that a trick question, Phil? You ask about places to drag the
> family, but I'm sure you're really asking about beer. I'm certainly not
going
> to tell you to drag the family to RatLand. Maybe Busch Gardens, but then
> again, no.

Maybe MOSI? Or the Dali museum for the art lovers in the family? Hmm.

> Tampa Bay Brewing Co (in Ybor City area of Tampa) - 813-247-1422

You can actually make an "Ybor beer tour" very easily, hitting Barley
Hoppers (in Central Ybor) http://www.barleyhoppers.cc/, New World, and maybe
the two UK-area pubs (The Irish Pub and James Joyce). The beer selection in
Ybor overall has gotten better over the years -- although there's still many
with just standard swill, there are a few with surprising selections. TBBC
is still your best food / beer bet.

> Dunedin Brewery - in Dunedin, just N of Clearwater. try to hit this on
Friday
> nite. it's a micro-brewery with a small pub & great music but the pub's
only
> open Fri nite.  www.dunedinbrewery.com  727-736-0606

Saturday nights as well now, last I heard.

There's also a nearby sports bar in Dunedin, called Eddie's, with a decent
amount of taps. But it is a sports bar, so not a good place for the kids
during football season. :) Good bar food though.

> Hopper's Brooker Creek Grille - don't have the contact info, but I think
it's
> on causeway between Clearwater & Tampa

It's a bit different than that. The way I know to get there is to take
McMullen Booth Road / East Lake Road north all the way up to the Brooker
Creek area; its in a shopping mall with a Publix. Info?: (727) 375-2667

> World of Beer - a Great hole in the wall beer store, also on causeway
between
> Clearwater & Tampa

This is the standard store for buying good beer in the area (it's on "the
causeway", Gulf to Bay west of McMullen booth, next to a Greyhound station).

One surprising beer store I've found is in St. Petersburg, called Sheps.
It's on 4th street near downtown, very close to a good British restaurant /
pub called Limey's. It looks like a standard 7-11 store from the distance
but has a nice array of beers inside.




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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:47:47 -0600
From: jal at novia.net
Subject: RE: brewing techniques



Robin Griller defends Steve Mallory and the situation with the demise of 
Brewing Techniques and shares some of the woes small business failure.

I reply:

Hear, Hear

Thanks for articulating what I've thought every time someone whines about 
losing the remainder of his subscription (I'm out eight months' worth). Steve 
tried to do right by us by offering back issues, but it appears he found it 
logistically unfeasible. Now he has someone to handle that for him. I may try 
to get the Brewer's Market publications I asked for when Steve first made the 
compensation offer, but it isn't a high priority.

Thanks again, Robin. And thank you Steve.

Jim Larsen
Omaha


- --------------------------------------------------
Novia Web Mail Interface http://webmail.novia.net/



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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:08:59 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: brown malt stout

I wrote about brewing my brown malt stout

>I used the six-row to make sure I had enough enzymes - might not bother
>again.

I used Crisp Maris Otter in yesterday's brew and no 6-row and got 
fine conversion, and even a little greater extract.  I aim at a 
gravity (1.042 in this case) rather than volume and diluted near the 
8 gallons (to fill a 7.75 gallon Sankey after racking.)

It a good thing I got extra because

**Stupid Brewer Trick Alert**

When I was pumping out the wort from the boiler I just laid the hose 
across the top of the fermenter (a ten gallon stock pot aka hot 
liquor tun) so that the wort streamed down the inside of the 
fermenter.  Then I went inside for something.  Five minutes later 
when I came back to the garage, the hose had fallen onto the garage 
floor about 2-1/2 gallons of my beautiful stout wort had run onto the 
floor.  Damn!  Why hadn't I used the clamp that was right there?  At 
least it was right at the door and I could use a snow shovel to push 
it out onto the driveway, where it was above freezing so I could wash 
if off.

Ah well, it's happily fermenting this morning and smells great.

As they say, a bad day brewing is better than a good day at work. 
Isn't that right, Drew?

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:21:42 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: CAP Report

"Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com> will have maybe wish he'd gone 
to work instead of brewing a CAP:

>First time
>doing a cereal mash - mixed 2 lbs of milled grain and 3 lbs of Unico
>cornmeal / polenta, added the water, and put it on to cook while the main
>mash rested at 140F.  It was like porridge, and I discovered a lesson: if
>you don't stir the cereal mash, that burnt smokey smell is the corn porridge
>burning on the bottom.  Crap.  Stir stir stir, maybe it will be a RauchCAP.
>Add the cereal mash to the main mash, rest, start the recirculation.  Stuck
>like a pig.

That lesson probably needs to be repeated, but I hope you used more 
water than I seem to have suggested in my Zymurgy article.  Probably 
as much as 1-1/2 quarts per pound.

Actually, you don't need more than a 1/2 pound of malt for three 
pounds of cornmeal, but the extra didn't hurt.  Did you rest it first 
for 20-30 minutes at a rest temp of 153 or so before boiling it? 
This really helps make it thinner and less of a scorching risk.  It's 
fun to watch - you mash in the cereal mash to 153F and it's a little 
thick, then put it in a preheated oven for 20-30 minutes, and it 
comes out much thinner.  Then you heat to a boil and as the starch 
swells it thickens again, then it gets thinner as it gelatinizes. 
It's certainly necessary to stir when applying heat until is settles 
down to a boil.  Even then, I use a wire trivet between the electric 
burner on my stove and the pot.

About the stuck mash - this puzzles me.  I get lots of email about 
CAPs and I'd guess maybe one brewer in ten has this problem, and I 
don't know what the common variable is.  That's enough to suggest 
that there is a problem, but I'm stumped.  Some used flakes and some 
do a cereal mash.  Over milling?  If anything, I find that a 6-row 
and cereal mash to be an easier runoff than all malt.  That is to 
say, it clarifies more quickly.

Hope it turns out well in spite of everything.  Please report back. 
How was the bird?

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:40:05 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: He who falls first must brew a Bud Light

"Bates, Floyd G" <BatesFG at bp.com> writes that he must brew

>a clone of an American mega-swill.
>
>Could someone provide feedback on the following recipe?  Is this close?
>
>Goal:
>Beer must be totally devoid of color, flavor, body and any other redeeming
>values.

I brewed such a beer summer before last for my son's wedding 
reception (the CAP ran out way before despite all the young "Lite" 
drinkers).  It was a fun challenge.  I may have failed, however, in 
that it tasted way better than Bud Lite but still the Lite drinkers 
liked it.

I suppose you could just brew a CAP and dilute part of it.  I 
understand that Miller Lite is brewed at 16P and diluted.  The neat 
beer supposedly tastes pretty much like a CAP.

>Grist Profile:
>20% - 6-row pilsner malt
>50% - 2-row pilsner malt, Maris Otter
>30% - Rice

I can't think of any reason not to use all US 6-row.  I like that 
stuff and it's what the big boys use (except Coors).  30% rice is a 
little low - how about 35% (although I did use 30% in mine).  Do a 
cereal mash and make sure to stir!

The rice should be coarsely ground - about 1 mm pieces.  I use a 
Corona mill.  Medium grain is better than long grain.  20 minutes 
cereal boil should be long enough.  Too long can lead to runoff 
problems, at least theoretically.

Bud has an OG of 1.044 and an FG of 1.009 (I believe).  This high 
attenuation is key to the crispness.  Lite beers are, of course, 
lower.

You haven't mentioned hops.  Yes, some hops really are used!  If you 
can get Cluster, they are traditional and appropriate for the 
bittering (so-called).  Otherwise  any neutral bittering hop. 
Northern Brew might not be bad.  Bud amazingly uses a large number of 
varieties.  Can't imagine why.  But I'd use Saaz for finishing.  Aim 
for 10 - 12 IBU.

>WYEAST 2035 or WLP810 (looking for the acetaldehyde flavor of green apples)

Just before it's done fermenting (upper 40s to low 50s) check to see 
if it needs a diacetyl rest.

>(Optional - 0.5 lb beechwood)

Regular lagering should do it.

>Mash Profile:
>140 degrees F - 2.5 hours
>158 degrees F - 0.5 hours

Way longer first rest than is necessary.  To get that crisp, dry 
taste, I'd suggest the first rest should be ~145.  An hour should be 
pulenty.  Use the time to conduct the cereal mash.

>Adjust water profile as required for Pilsner, Kolsch, etc.

That certainly is crucial.  Low sulfate (although, again, Bud uses 
sulfuric acid to adjust St. Louis water) and low alkalinity are key 
to avoiding harsh bitterness.

Good luck.  Maybe you can please the wagerers and yourself with the 
result.  I actually found my brew pleasant - better than regular 
mega-swill, to say nothing of mega-lite.  Please report back.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:42:49 -0800
From: "John Zeller" <jwz_sd at hotmail.com>
Subject: Rotating Sparge Arm Whirlygigs

Kirk Fleming (HBD #3844 and Zymie too in HBD #3842)) rant and rage about the 
evils of using a Listermann sparge arm.  The sparger is designed to gently 
and evenly distribute hot water over the surface of the grain bed and it 
performs that task very well.  The design is simple with only one moving 
part and required maintenance is near zero.  As with all of Listermann's 
products, it carries Dan's unconditional guarantee. It works for me!

"Me thinks thou dost protest too much!"  I think it was Homer Simpson that 
said that, but I'm not sure.  So, while I will agree that there are many 
ways that one can apply the sparge water, the silly Phil's Sparger ranks 
near the top with it's ability to annoy the competition. I suspect there is 
some Listermann envy going on here.  What do ya'll think?








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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:44:31 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: To shake or not to shake, that is the question

Stefan wrote: 

>What is the best route to take?  Do I over pressurize (30psi)
and shake or do I pressurize normally and lit is sit for a week or two?  

I guess it all depends upon when you want to drink your beer.  Overpressure
and shake for a quick beer.  Pressurize normally if you're patient.  My
method depends on what I currently have on hand.  If I've got two or more
carbonated brews already, I'll wait - because I'm more lazy than patient.
If the supply is low, then I'll shake it and roll it around on the floor for
a while.  It may be worth the time & energy.

Some claim that by overpressurizing and shaking you can have drinkable,
fully-carbonated beer in 15 minutes.  I have yet to produce a fully
satisfactory beverage in that short timeframe.  Not even in 20 minutes.
After 30?  I don't know becuase I've already cracked a frosty one from the
reserves!  I have found that 15 minutes of shaking a chilled,
over-pressurized keg (30 psi) will get the beer close to the carbonation of
a traditional English mild (not very carbonated).  However, if I then leave
the keg attached to the gas at the desired carbonation level, the beer is
satisfactory by the next day.

In addition, I believe that the carbonation rate might be faster if the keg
is turned on it's side, exposing more surface area of the beer to the gas.
How much faster?  That's a question for our chemists.  Can anyone confirm
this?

Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen A. Pannicke

glen at pannicke.net          http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F  214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"I have made this letter longer than usual,
because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal




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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:54:47 -0500
From: "David Craft" <David-Craft at craftinsurance.com>
Subject: Belgian Beer styles

Greetings,

I recently made a Strong Belgian Ale. For various reasons I deviated from
myb intended recipe.  What I ended up with is smack between a Trippel/
Strong Pale Ale and a Dubbel/Strong Dark Ale in color and malt bill.  I t
has a SRM of 10 which would still fit the Strong Dark Ale category 18-D, but
lacks the Munich malt. I used all pilsner with some Special B and
Cara-Munich, candi sugar, aromatic, and dextrine malts.......

I would like to enter this in the AHA and was thinking about category 19-E
Belgian Specialty. This category is the catch all seems to ask for what beer
you are replicating. I don't think I replicated anything that I have had.

I would like to forward the ProMash recipe for advice. Please respond
directly if you please.

Regards,

David B. Craft
Battleground Brewers Homebrew Club
Crow Hill Brewery and Meadery
Greensboro, NC

Apparent Rennarian
478.4,152........I Think!



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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:33:38 -0500
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: To shake or not to shake, that is the question


Stefan Berggren, who is somewhere in this wide world, asks us to tell about
our processes on force carbonating:

> I have been going over and over in my head about shaking
> kegs when force carbonating.  What is the best route to
> take?  Do I over pressurize (30psi) and shake or do I
> pressurize normally and lit is sit for a week or two?  I
> would love to hear peoples opinion on this subject and
> methods to their kegging madness?  Help an undecided
> shaker out.....

Well, here is my method, which is somewhat unconventional but works great
for me. It is simple, fast, consistent, and reliable.

Chill keg to 40F. Set CO2 regulator to 35 psi. Set a timer to 4 minutes (or
use your watch). Lay the corny  horizontally across your knees with the
gas-in QD at the lowest point (use some insulation between corny and knees -
it gets cold) . Connect the gas (with the hose looped above the keg if you
don't have a check valve in the line) and start the timer. Rock the keg by
swinging your knees left to right about 3-4 inches & back at a rate of about
60-80 times per minute. It is quite slow, like rocking a baby. You will hear
the CO2 bubbling into the keg. When the timer goes off, shut off the gas
cylinder and continue rocking. You will see the regulator pressure gauge
start to drop,  and it should bottom out at somewhere around 12-15 psi.

If your serving system is balanced so that you can serve at that pressure,
pour a glass to check the carbonation level. If not, bleed some pressure
first. If you want higher carbonation, repeat the rocking process,
estimating the amount of extra time based upon the current carb level.

I had to experiment a little, and if your temps or pressures or rock
frequency varies from mine then you will have to experiment to find the
optimal times for you. For me, I use 3.5 minutes for an English Ale, 4
minutes for a European lager, 4.5 minutes for an American or Belgian Ale,
and 5 minutes for a Hefeweizen. I rarely have to hook back up and adjust it
anymore. Also, if I've had the keg setting in the cold box for a while, I'll
gently transfer it to another keg before shaking - invariably there is  a
little sediment left in the original keg that would have been mixed up when
I carbonated it.

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew




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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:50:14 -0800
From: "Lane, Mark C. (NM)" <MarkC.Lane at voicestream.com>
Subject: My First All-Grain Batch and a pH question

My first all-grain batch was quite an experience.  I had only been brewing
several months and had become bored with the kits and partial mashes.  All
the reading I was doing at the time had me jonesin' for the big step to all
grain.  I bought a Gott cooler and somehow managed to find the proper parts
to replace the spigot with a 3/8" brass ball valve.  That was an
accomplishment in itself since I had absolutely no experience in the
plumbing department.  Heck, it took me a half hour to find the section at
the megastore.  But I shouldn't be admitting to that.  I picked up a Phalse
Bottom (too big) and a sparge arm (again, too big) and made them fit into
the cooler in one way or another.  Actually, the too-large Phalse Bottom
worked very well against the inside fitting for my ball valve.  The only
problem I encountered was a decent warping of the Phalse Bottom after the
mash.  No biggie though - everything worked great.  I did not have any grain
getting through the ball valve or anything.  I also bought a 9-gallon
stainless steel kettle from Homebrew Heaven and that has been a great piece
of equipment.  I upgraded to have the ball valve fitted and everything.
Yeah, I'm spoiled.

My first batch was a Murphy's-style stout, with a little extra pale malt to
increase the OG.  Why call it a stout if it isn't in fact stout, right?
Everything, to my surprise, went much better than expected.  I supppose
reading a ton of literature beforehand actually helped.  My only problem - I
didn't have a hot liquor tank.  When I was about to start my sparge, I
realized I had a great 9-gallon kettle with a cool ball valve to heat the
water and a nifty sparge arm to spin about and sprinkle water over the grain
bed, but no other vessel to collect the run-off.  Wait, my old trusty
5-gallon kettle I used for my partial mashes should work.  After fretting
several moments, I pulled out the old standby, and everything progressed
smoothly from there.  Not even a stuck mash or anything.  I was impressed,
and quite hooked on this new hobby.  Since then, only SWMBO has held me back
from offering my entire paychecks to those wonderful online sellers of evil
equipment.  Since that fateful day (sometime in October, 2000), I have
increased my equipment to a second Gott cooler for an HLT, one of those
wonderful stainless steel conical fermenters with internal cooling from
morebeer.com (brewing in the desert requires a good amount of temp control
during the Spring through Fall - I've actually been able to drop the temp to
45 degrees F in 75 degrees ambient), a magnetic yeast stirrer, and a
counterflow chiller from St. Pat's.  I've pretty much gone off the deep end
on the gadgets, but that's my nature.

As far as equipment I wished I hadn't purchased - I would have to say
everything I have purchased has served its purpose in one way or another.  I
could complain about buying a 5-gallon kettle; yet, without it, I would have
had no vessel to collect the wort from my first all-grain batch.  I could
complain about the two 5-gallon carboys now sitting dormant in my garage,
but I would then only have one fermenter and my brewing schedule would be
completely reliant on the fermenting/conditioning time of my previous beer.
I suppose the only thing I would sell back would be my immersion wort
chiller(s).  They never brought the wort temps down close enough to pitching
temperatures.  My counterflow chiller brought my last batch to 60 degrees F
 - I actually had to let it warm up before pitching.  Great stuff!

Ok, one little question - all of this talk about pH recently has started me
wondering.  After how long should the pH of the mash be stabilized, i.e.,
how long after dough-in should the mash be considered stable before
beginning to add salts and/or acids?

Mark Lane
Albuquerque, NM (pretty far from Mr. Renner, about 210 degrees or so,
estimated)



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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:56:02 -0700
From: james.vahsen-phx at st.com
Subject: Re: He who falls first...

> Grist Profile:
> 20% - 6-row pilsner malt
> 50% - 2-row pilsner malt, Maris Otter
> 30% - Rice
> WYEAST 2035 or WLP810 
> 
> Mash Profile:
> 140 degrees F - 2.5 hours
> 158 degrees F - 0.5 hours

Floyd,

1. Yes, you must put SOME hops in.  A 60+ minute addition of a
   neutral hop to get 9-12 IBUs, assuming SG of 1.036-1.040.

2. Add rice hulls to mash, or you will be in for a long day.
   Also, you will want to do a protein rest if you can.

3. 6-row is unnecessary unless you have it laying around.

Mmmmmm.  Tasteless beer.  I seem to have similar experiences
with drinking doublebock.  Fortunately, triplebock tastes like
soy sauce to me, so I stay away from that entirely...

Hophead,
Phoenix, AZ



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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:13:06 -0500
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Thermal mash calculations

Gene Collins asked about using thermal mass settings in Promash.

This is a direct extract from the Promash help file: 

Mash Tun Themal Mass: The amount of heat (expressed from 0.0 to 1.0) the
mash tun will absorb. If you heat your water in the mash tun, or pre-heat
the mash tun itself then the thermal mass will be 0.0. If you infuse into a
cold mash tun you will need to know the thermal mass. If you do not know the
thermal mass of your mash tun, we suggest starting with a value of 0.30 and
comparing results with actual strike temperatures hit to accurately
determine the thermal tun of your mash. This elements default value can be
set in the System Defaults, so the same thermal mass can be used over and
over without resetting the element.

I heat my water in the mash tun and use a thermal mass setting of 0. My
strike water calculations are usually pretty accurate.


As to the problem of overshooting your gravities, I think its safe to say we
all wish we had that problem. ;^) Efficiency is a measure of the actual
extract to the possible extract. You can calculate it yourself by adding all
the gravity point potentials of your grains,  dividing by your net volume,
then dividing that into your actual gravity points. For example:

8 lbs pale malt    at  37 pts per lb = 296
1/2 lb crystal 40  at  34 pts per lb =  17
1/2 lb carapils    at  33 pts per lb =  16
1/4 lb chocolate   at  30 pts per lb =   8
total                               337 pts

OG (after boil) of 5 gallons: 1.045, or 225 gravity points (5 * 45).
Efficiency = 225/337 = 67%

Adjust your efficiency setting in Promash to match what you are getting,
then you can adjust your recipes to achieve your target gravity.

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew




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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:55:23 -0500
From: "Kurt Schweter" <KSchweter at smgfoodlb.com>
Subject: Re: sparge arms

Dan, please ----
absolutely necessary ????
some people may get the impression that
in your own way you are telemarketing



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Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:16:55 +1100
From: "Philip Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: True Love Ale

What's a bloke to do when he gets asked on short notice to provide a keg of
his finest at someone's wedding. Along with the request comes all the usual
crap. "You make the best beer we've ever tasted", "If only we could have a
keg at our wedding, four weeks away".

Four weeks away?
Four weeks away?!!!

I am averse to weddings at the best of times. And this being my mate's third
go at it, I reckon he ought to just sneak off and do it in a registry
office. Hell, Jill and I took off to the Caribbean when we got married, so
as not to bother anyone. That was my first and it certainly is going to be
my last. A bloke can't be foolish enough to do this more than once in a
lifetime. Not unless you are Eric Fouch who just can't help himself.

But getting back to the keg of beer they wanted. How am I expected to
magically produce a keg of beautiful beer with four weeks notice? My fridges
are occupied with an ale and a lager still in fermentation. "Couldn't we
have one of those?" comes the shocking question. Don't these people
understand that a brewer runs a production line tailored to his needs? You
can't just pull a brew out and hand it to someone without creating a big
hole in your own supply.

The whole question has ruined my day, ruined my month in fact. But the ever
resourceful brewer always finds a solution.

Down at the bottle shop I bought two cases of "Old Kent", a cheap and nasty
beer but just the colour I wanted. All 48 stubbies I poured into one of my
kegs. To this I added a concentrated Styrian Goldings hop tea to give it
some bite and help create that murky homebrew look. I gassed up the keg and
tried a glass of it out on one of my brew mates.

"This is disgusting!" was his comment. He was right.

Off with the lid of the keg and in went six bottles of James Squire India
Pale Ale. Now this is starting to get bloody expensive but I ain't parting
with my own.

"This is still disgusting!" was my brewing mates comment.
Again he was right.

Off with the lid again and in went two large bottles of Sheaf stout.
"Why don't you add a bottle of vodka?" was my brewing mate's sarcastic
comment.

So I did.
And I've named it "True Love Ale", cos I'm such a sentimental guy.

I figure, at the wedding, if they don't think much of my True Love Ale,
after two glasses they will all be unconscious and wake the next morning
remembering nothing. What's more, the best part of the keg will be still in
tact. I'll save it for the next function I get asked to take a keg to. The
whole creation has cost me over $100 so I had better get some use out of it!

Oh clever and resourceful brewer, I never cease to amaze myself.

Cheers
Phil
ps will report how the wedding goes.



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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:56:20 -0500
From: "Arnold Neitzke" <arnold_neitzke at ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: CAP Report


> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:37:30 -0500
> From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
> Subject: CAP Report
>
> but still, crap.  Start RauchCAP boiling, add specialty grains to mash for
> porter, re-circ, sparge.  Boil.  Treat CAP pot with a few drops of
> "anti-foam", and it proceeds to boil over.  Crap.  Maybe it needs a few
more
> drops?  Add several drops to the porter, which then boils over.  Crap.
> Wonder - did I get "extra-foam" solution instead? Smokey CAP smell now
>
> This hobby is supposed to be relaxing and fun?
>

I am still laughing my a$$ off, this is the best of 2002 yet :)



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Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:08:45 +1100
From: Wes Smith <wsmith at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Dark Malt Additions

Scotty wants some input on mashing dark malts so here we go - sorry this is 
bit late to follow the thread, but my original post had some non-ascii 
characters and was rejected at the HBD gates...

Doug Hirst is indeed correct in his premise that there is extractable malt 
in all dark roasted malts. This varies from type to type and of course 
lessons the darker the roast becomes. It is also important to recognise the 
difference between roasted malt and roasted barley when discussing various 
makes of roasted grain. For instance, Bairds Roast Barley is just that - 
unmalted barley roasted to just short of the point of carbonisation. 
Typically with an EBC of 1300 minimum (500L), RB has an extract potential 
of around 60 - 65% (fine crush). Weyermann Carafa Special on the other hand 
is made from de-husked roasted malt and in its darkest form (Type 3) is 
1200 - 1300 EBC (450 - 490L) with an extract potential of 70%.

But there is much more to be got from these roasted grains other than 
extract and colour. Flavour and sometimes even aroma are equally important. 
Take a classic dry Irish stout - RB is the key constituent where the colour 
and more importantly the flavour come from the heavily roasted grain. This 
in turn is balanced by the aggressive hop bitterness to produce a balanced 
flavour/aroma. Or take the famous Schlenkerla Rauch beer from Bamberg, 
(home of the Weyermann Malting Company) which is brewed to around 50 EBC 
and the colour achieved with roasted malt with only minimal affect on the 
flavour profile. I have a sample of this in the fermenter as we speak, 
brewed from a recipe supplied by Thomas Weyermann after a recent visit to 
their maltings.

It is also a fact that many heavily roasted grains can produce harsh 
off-flavours and aromas. This can be due in part to the barley strain 
and/or growing conditions in a particular location as much as the roasting 
process itself. It is no coincidence that the highest skilled job in a 
maltings is that of "Roastmaster". He is responsible for the selection of 
grain, moisture evaluation, determination of temperature rate and ramp, 
determination of end colour and finally the critical quenching point. It is 
much more than merely roasting to achieve a certain colour. Here in 
Australia our 2 local maltsters who have roasting capability have downtuned 
the colour rating of "RB" to about 800 - 900 EBC simply because to roast 
any darker will exacerbate the off-flavours. It seems our arid climate 
barleys do not take too kindly to roasting - maybe they get enough heat out 
in the sun!

To the process of mashing roasted grains - most texts I have read recommend 
adding the high colour malts such as RB at some point after mashin but 
leaving enough time to get a 45 minute stand. My own experience has been 
that 45 minutes is the minimum - I would feel more comfortable with a 60 
minute stand in a single step infusion mash of say 90 to 120 minutes to get 
all the colour and flavour present in the grains. That harshness in flavour 
several have mentioned can come from the tannins or from various reactions 
that occur in the roasting process. It can also be exacerbated in the mash 
tun and during sparging by incorrect pH. Water hardness will also play a 
part in drawing out bitter flavours so it is important to understand your 
water profile and adjust mash and sparge pH accordingly.

The Scurrilous Aleman laments the unavailability of Weyermann Carafa 
Special malts in the UK. Tony, have you tried The Home Brew Shop -
www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk They certainly advertise many of the other 
Weyermann malts. If you have no luck, contact me off-line and I will see 
what I can find out from the good folks at Weyermann.

Wes.

Importing and distributing Bairds and Weyermann products in Australia. 



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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:09:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Ippolito <DCippy at homebrew.com>
Subject: Tired of All-Grain!

Hi all!
  First, in response to the worst buys thread -- carboys!  
They're awkward, hard to clean, and they scare the heck 
out of me.  I've been using an all plastic setup for some 
time now and haven't noticed any ill effect from it...my 
brews don't usually need long fermentations, though.  
  Anyway here's my question -- I'm tired of all-grain 
brewing! Lately I find myself more and more limited 
on time.  I don't have the refined palate of a beer 
judge, but my beginning extract brews suited me just 
fine and I never got a single complaint from those 
I shared them with.  But I do have 
the equipment for all-grain, so I want to compromise 
with a partial mash.  What I'm looking for are 
suggestions on how to get the best beer possible out 
of a partial mash...Where to get quality LME, DME, or 
other ingredients to make my brew similar in quality 
to all-grain. Thanks to any who can help!
Dan Ippolito
Valdosta, GA

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" 
- -- Benajmin Franklin


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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:25:44 -0600
From: "Fred Scheer" <fhopheads at msn.com>
Subject: Pilsener hopping


HI all:

Regarding the hops used in Pilseners, Jeff Renner
could answer that for American Pilsener. I used in
my Pilseners Cluster Hops for Bittering, and
Perle for Aroma. Lot's of my friends in Germany
who went with me through DOEMENS using the same hops
for their Pilseners.
Good luck,
Fred M. Scheer




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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:11:05 -0500
From: kingkelly at juno.com
Subject: Puerto Rico

This one is tough.  Headed to Puerto Rico in a couple of weeks, and
looking for any recommendations of good beer spots.  I know the island
favorite is Medalla, and there isn't much in the way of microbreweries. 
Will be mainly on the eastern half of the island.  Thanks for any inputs!

Esther King
President
Star City Brewers Guild
http://hbd.ord/starcity


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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:16:55 -0500
From: Andy Woods <woods_a at ACADMN.MERCER.EDU>
Subject: Yeast profile questions, St. Patrick's Day Beer..

To all,

   Recently I made a Oatmeal stout and split the batch with two different 
types 
of yeast, Wyeast Irish Ale (10840 and a American Ale clone (similiar to 1056).
When I tasted both of these at racking time, both tasted good but I didn't 
notice any different between the two batches.  I have read the yeast profiles 
of each, and I am wondering if anyone has failed to notice a difference 
between these two styles of yeast?

   Also.. Im looking to make a green beer for St. Patricks Day.  What type of 
styles and what special ingredients are appropriate for this type of brew?  
Would you just add a large amount of food coloring at knockout during the 
boil?  Any recipes out there (i checked Cats Meow and a few other sites to no 
avail.)

Andy
woods_a at acadmn.mercer.edu



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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:14:29 -0500
From: Mark Anderson <mjandrsn at w-link.net>
Subject: Pitchable Tubes & Harvesting

Greetings All:

I've been lurking about this site for months, and have been enjoying all
your posts.  .

I've had mixed results with the Wyeast pitchable tubes.  My first batch
with it finished way short, but when I groused about it at the local HB
shop I was told that the customer response so far had been pretty good.
Since then I tried an Irish Ale which, despite the 12 hour lag, finished
out quite well despite the high og (1.070.)  Which leads me to this
question about harvesting the yeast.

The stout I brewed had a stormly ferment.  Just the best.  I racked a
fair amount of trub into the secondary and when the sediment settled I
found it had graded into three distinct layers.  The top layer is about
3/16 inch deep and has a dense, butter-like look in both color and
texture.  The second layer has more texture and darker color, and the
bottom layer looks like something I'd rather not discuss.  Both of these
layers are about 1/2 inch thick.  I was told that yeast tends to settle
mid-layer, but I'll tell you, that top layer looks too good and too pure
not be anything but a guest of honor at a fermentation party.  Should I
vacumn the bottom and remove as much of the gunk as possible and then
pitch the remainder into the fermenter?  Or is it just as well to pitch
all three layers, trub and all?

Best regards to all,

Mark Anderson
Seattle, WA



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