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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: oxyclean as a sanitizer? (LJ Vitt)
  Re: pulling your leg ("Kurt Schweter")
  First MCAB5 Qualifying Event - Last Call for entries! ("John B. Doherty")
  Re: To shake or not to shake, that is the question (Larry Bristol)
  Re: Oxyclean as a Sanitizer (Brew By You Info)
  Tired of All-Grain, extract brews ("Audie Kennedy")
  bt: what a crock ("Robin Griller")
  Re: Pale Ale experiment (Spencer W Thomas)
  RE: BT and all that jazz (Beaverplt)
  Subject: NPT Nuts (GASNER)
  drop the BT thread/oatmeal stout (Emily E Neufeld)
  RIMS heating chamber ("marc_hawley")
  Oxyclean as a sanitizer? (Al Klein)
  Re: Extract Brews, kits? (Al Klein)
  Re: Carboys (Al Klein)
  FW:  Recovering Gambler Needs Enzyme Help ("Bates, Floyd G")
  candi-sugar (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  Back Issues of Brewing Techniques (ksc58)
  dark grain use ("Micah Millspaw")
  new propane law ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Re:   Carboys... (Peter Torgrimson)
  Re: Carboys... (Jeff Renner)
  Green Beer / Pale Ale Experiment (David Harsh)
  Re:best all around grain/storage... (Kelly Grigg)
  Good beer bar in New Orleans (Stroud Steve)
  Do You Scoop? ("Cindy & Walt")
  Bad brew days (GordonRick)
  RE: diluted IBU, no-boil kits, wasted money, force carbs, step ma (Brian Lundeen)
  Homebrew Clubs in the surrounding Flint area? (Chad Holley)
  soda fountains ("Scott Basil")
  Hop aroma (DHinrichs)
  Minimal Allgrain Setup? (Steven S)
  Hop Character (mohrstrom)
  Re: RIMS Heater control (Tony Verhulst)
  Whirlygiggles (Carl Schulze)
  Whirlygigs, One More Time ("Kirk Fleming")


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:47:11 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: oxyclean as a sanitizer?


In HBD#3847 , Dave asked about oxyclean



> Hello all.  I am a new poster so please forgive any novice errors. 
> recently noticed a product called "Oxyclean" intended for stain 
removal,
> and general cleaner. The listed ingredients were Sodium Percarbonates 
and
> Sodium Carbonates. I was thinking these were the same ingredients for
> "one-step" sanitizer. I was wondering if the "oxyclean" would be 
suitable to
> use for cleaning and sanitizing my brew equipment. 
> Many Thanks, 
> Dave Darity

Dave the problem I see...IMHO One-step is not a suitable sanitizer.
I tried it several years ago, and produced a string of infected beers.
I corrected that by switching to Iodophor.
Other brewers tell me they do fine with one-step.  However, I remember 
one who claimed that and I tried his beer.  It too had an infection,
just not a obvious as mine.

I remember a Zymurgy article on sanitizers that described one-step as a
cleaner, not a sanitizer.

Leo Vitt
Rochester MN






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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:02:35 -0500
From: "Kurt Schweter" <KSchweter at smgfoodlb.com>
Subject: Re: pulling your leg

you got it, 
tried to fuel the fire, 
realizing it would be a stretch



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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:12:30 -0800 (PST)
From: "John B. Doherty" <dohertybrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: First MCAB5 Qualifying Event - Last Call for entries!

Fellow Beer Enthusiasts,

It is now official that the Boston Homebrew Competition on Saturday, February
9th, 2002 will be the first MCAB5 Qualifying Event of 2002.

The entry deadline is Friday February 1st, so that's one week for those of you
who want a first crack at MCAB5.  Last Call!!!

Full info can be found at http://www.wort.org/bhc.html

Look for the BOS results to be posted here and the full results to be posted on
the website above on the day after the competition.

Cheers,

 -John Doherty
Boston Wort Processors
Boston Homebrew Competition Organizer
dohertybrewing at yahoo.com
www.wort.org/bhc.html






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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:17:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Larry Bristol <larryjbristol at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: To shake or not to shake, that is the question

- --- Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net> wrote:

> I think you've missed an important point, at least
in then way I do 
> this.  While I start with high pressure (as high as
35 psi), I have 
> learned to judge how close to my target I am getting
by the speed at 
> which the gas bubbles in.  Then I will turn the
pressure down, again 
> to judge the speed of the bubbles.  If I judge that
I am still a ways 
> from my target, I'll jack the pressure back up.  If
it bubbles 
> slowly, I'll keep the pressure lower, but still
above target to speed 
> things up.  Then as I get close to target
carbonation, I'll turn the 
> pressure to the target.
> 
> So if my target is, say, 12 psi at 45 deg F, I'll
> go right), bubbling the very last CO2 at exactly
that.  Voila!  The 
> equilibrium that you seek, achieved in less than a
half hour.
> 
> Of course, there have been a few times when I
overshot my target and 
> had to vent excess gas or put up with foamy beer.
But usually I hit 
> it about right.
> 
> Still, I'd rather not rush things and just let time
do its thing. 
> But it's nice to have a method when time is short.
> 
> jeff
> -- 

That makes sense to me.  I think my statement "...
your keg of beer is not in a state of equilibrium...
it will change over time" is correct, but it now
sounds more ominous than I intended.

As you demonstrate, it is possible to control the
process so that the conditions in the keg are fairly
close to the conditions that you would get using the
slow way.  I doubt they could be an exact match, but 
that is not really very important.  OK, yes, the beer
will change over time, but the closer you come to
hitting your target, the less significant that change
will be.

So, like almost everything, it depends.  I prefer to
do carbonation the slow way.  It sounds like you do,
also.    And it is nice to know there is an
alternative that can be used when time is short.  I
just hope I never get enough practice shaking such
that I learn to match the slow way.    <grin>

Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX



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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:26:09 -0500
From: Brew By You Info <info at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: Oxyclean as a Sanitizer

Dave Darity asks about Oxyclean as a sanitizer.

Dave, this is interesting to me, because I recently had
somebody tell me they use One Step the same way as
Oxyclean.  This guy told me he put a stained straining
bag - you know the ones you use for sparging or that
winemakers use when crushing fruit - into a plastic bag
with some One Step, and it came out completely clean and
white, like new.

So it seems they work the same as far as cleaning goes.

One step also claims to be a sanitizer, though, as well
as a cleaner.  Oxyclean seems to be sold exclusively as
a cleaner.  I don't know if they make any claims regarding
sanitation.

Bill





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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:07:03 -0500
From: "Audie Kennedy" <audiefr at hotmail.com>
Subject: Tired of All-Grain, extract brews

On the subject of partial mash, the best brews I have produced so far have
been partial mash kits I got from More Beer (no affiliation, etc.) and I
have not been able yet to brew all-grain that is as good, probably a problem
in my mashing techniques, which are improving.
As to the no-boil kits, I did produce a good brew without boiling extract,
and it wasn't one of the "new" kits.  I just wanted to try it to see if it
would work, and it did, but the most important reason to boil extract is
sanitation.  Boiling will help keep the "nasties" out of your brew.  And
don't follow the instructions that come with the kits!  Throw the
instructions away!  When I got started, I used the sugar the instructions
called for, and always got "cidery" beer, which almost made me give up the
hobby.  After I learned to extract brew with all-extract, my beer improved
dramatically.  After that, I only used sugar for bottling.  After getting my
Corny Keg setup, I don't use bottles, except for taking some brew over to a
friend's house, or giving some away, so now my beer has no sugar, unless I
add a small amount to increase the alcohol content, but I don't normally do
that.  I have also added rice to my recipes as an experiment, and cannot
detect any contribution to the flavor.  I admit I don't have a judge's taste
buds either (smoking for 30 years).
Audie Kennedy
Wise, VA


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:08:58 -0500
From: "Robin Griller" <robin_g at ica.net>
Subject: bt: what a crock

Hi all

In a post that looks slanderous, Peter says, "Steve Mallory, a failed
business man who ripped lots of people, me included" and continues,
"Mallory, like the big guys at Enron, went home with his pockets full." Let
me see, the guy loses his business, his means of making a living, but
according to Peter he 'went home with his pockets full."

And he wonders why we are defending a person against his petty nastiness.

Robin





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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:44:27 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Pale Ale experiment 

(I'm happy to be participate in a thread that hopefully will not
engender flaming responses!)

Why all the differences?  We saw very similar differences in the "HBD
Palexperiment" here.  Simply put, each participant has his or her own
unique equipment, process, and environment. It's not at all surprising
to me that the end results differ.

For example, I brew on my stove top, and in consequence have
difficulty reaching a very strong boil. Probably my hop utilization
suffers from this.

You ask about the lack of hop aroma.  I can think of at least 2
factors that would affect this:

1. Cooling process.  Different chillers will take different amounts of
time to chill the wort.  This will affect the amount of hop aroma that
remains in the beer.

2. Oxidation. One of the things that oxidation of the finished beer
can do is to kill hop aroma.  I can't tell from your message how long
after finishing the beers you waited before tasting, so I'm not sure
how significant this effect might be.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:00:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Beaverplt <beaverplt at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: BT and all that jazz

Peter writes
"I really don't understand why so many of you are
defending Steve
Mallory, a failed business man who ripped lots of
people, me
included.

I responded to an advertisement in BT and renewed my
subscription
for 2 years. A month later, they were belly up.
Undoubtedly,
Mallory knew of the poor financials of BT and of its
imminent
demise but kept this a secret and sought the money of
new
subscribers anyway. Sounds a bit like the big guys at
Enron, who
promoted the company when they knew of its imminent
collapse.
Mallory, like the big guys at Enron, went home with
his pockets
full.

BTW, anyone who wants to throw some money at
businesses that will
fail, please let me know. I'm always in need of some
extra cash
and shouldn't have too much trouble starting a
business that will
fail."

Peter obviously is not, has never been, nor will ever
be a business owner. While I nor any of us will ever
know exactly why Mallory went under, it's foolish to
think that they would sabotoge their business by
warning people that their business is failing. Talk
about making sure it will happen! Most likely they
were doing their damnedest to save their business
right up until the end. I certainly understand your
anger and frustration. But to lash out and accuse
these people of purposely misleading you is just plain
ignorant. To compare these people to Enron is
slanderous and irresposible. If you believe you were a
victim of fraud, seek legal recourse. Otherise, this
is not the forum for this kind of trash.



=====
Jerry "Beaver" Pelt

That's my story and I'm sticking to it



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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:10:59 EST
From: GASNER at aol.com
Subject: Subject: NPT Nuts


Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 00:49:11 -0800
From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher at socal.rr.com>
Subject: NPT Nuts

Hmmmmm. If memory serves, NPT stands for Normal Pipe Thread. (National Pipe 
Thread???) They are tapered in diameter from start to end, thus, when a pipe 
is started into a coupling it is very loose at first, but finally the tapers 
fit tightly, then another half turn with a large wrench deforms the metal to 
a pretty tight fit. The plumbers goop on the thread seals the remaining 
crevices. 

A nut on a bolt on your (older) car would be NC or NF for National Coarse or 
National Fine. The bolt on the car would be constant diameter the full 
length, hence the nut can be run up or down the full length without ever 
getting tight (until it 'hits the wall'). This would not allow for a seal of 
the threads and water would leak through.

NC and NF are not metric. They are the older English system used in the USA 
and elsewhere. They are NOT the English system 'Whitworth' as used by the 
English on parts of my old Triumph TR2. (Sigh, . . . knock off hubs/wire 
wheels roadster. 1954 was a very good year for Brit cars.)

 Earl L. Gasner
gasner at aol.com
P.S. God (or a European) only knows what a metric pipe thread would be 
called. 
(:-)


>A couple of people mentioned difficulty locating 1/2" NPT nuts for making up
bulkhead fittings.  Any well-stocked plumbing supply should stock these in
brass.  Reason being that they are used on nearly every conventional faucet
set.  The portion of the typical 4" centerset (like a lavatory or bar sink
faucet) that sticks down through the countertop are threaded 1/2" NPT, and
these same nuts are what hold the faucet in place.
>Kent


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:46:04 -0600
From: Emily E Neufeld <eneufeld at juno.com>
Subject: drop the BT thread/oatmeal stout

Let us get back to discussing brewing. Yeah, I lost a good part of my
subscription too, and wasn't able to get any back issues.  I think Steve
Mallory did his best, and probably never made much while BT was
successful, and lost his shirt when it failed.  Comparing Steve Mallory
to Ken Lay is ludicrous.  Now for brewing: what is the recommended amount
of oats for an oatmeal stout?  I used about a 1lb in an 11.25lb grain
bill.  It has the silkiness of the oats but could use more of the aroma.


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:07:16 -0600
From: "marc_hawley" <marc_hawley at msn.com>
Subject: RIMS heating chamber

The question was:

> Quick RIMS question: anyone out there using the RIMS heater chamber and
> heater element from Moving Brews?  If so, do you run the heater at 120 or
> 240 V?  How do you control the heater (other than on/off)?

I am using the Moving Brews heater chamber with the recommended low watt
density heater. I do run it at 120 volts. It is rated at 4500 watts for 240
volts. I assume at 120 volts it would be a little over 1000 watts. (I
understand these things are not quite linear.)

I control it with an infinite switch of the type used to control electric
range elements. This works great for my "manual" RIMS. I run it full ON to
ramp between rests, then turn it back to a medium setting to maintain a
temperature during a rest. The controller cycles on and off every 10 seconds
or so and the outflow from the heat chamber varies only about a degree F
during the cycle.



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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 21:13:49 -0500
From: Al Klein <rukbat at optonline.net>
Subject: Oxyclean as a sanitizer?

Dave Darity asks about using Oxyclean as a cleaner/sanitizer:

>The listed ingredients were Sodium Percarbonates and
>Sodium Carbonates. I was thinking these were the same ingredients for
>"one-step" sanitizer. I was wondering if the "oxyclean" would be suitable to
>use for cleaning and sanitizing my brew equipment. 

That's what I used for my first batch (before I knew "better") and had
no problems with infection.  Since my second batch, however, I've been
using PBW or BLC for cleaning and iodophor to sanitize.
- -- 
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 21:13:50 -0500
From: Al Klein <rukbat at optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Extract Brews, kits?

Bill Wible writes:

>On a similar topic, I was wondering if anybody has noticed or
>followed the recent new "no boil" trend regarding 'kit' brews
>(the liquid kit cans that are pre-hopped and blended for a
>certain "style").
[snip]
>Anybody out there tried this?  I may have to try it once as an
>experiment.  I have done kit brews from a can in the past - but
>it was a few years ago, in my first year or two of brewing.  I
>always boiled the kits for at least 30 minutes, as suggested by
>the experts, and added my own flavor or aroma hops.

>In looking over my old brewing records, I find that I never got
>a kit brew from a can that was really good.

>Other experiences?

My first batch was a Mr. Beer - no boil, and I didn't know why until a
while later (the flavor and aroma hops) but, considering that it was
probably very stale, it didn't make that bad a beer.  In fact, it was
quite good (for an underhopped pale ale).  I've graduated to buying
the ingredients I want and brewing with them, but I still have a few
cans of Mr. Beer left, so I'll probably brew them no boil.  But I
doubt I'll be buying any more kits.
- ---
[Apparent Rennerian 567.7, 95.9] 
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 21:13:49 -0500
From: Al Klein <rukbat at optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Carboys

On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:19:20 -0500, in rec.crafts.brewing you wrote:

>Lastly, for handling carboys, get a milk crate.  Put the carboy
>in the milk crate before you fill it.  The milk crate has handles,
>and makes a carboy alot easier to carry and move.

I built a cheap dolly out of plywood, a 2X3, 4 casters, 16 wood screws
and some glue.  I can wheel the carboy anywhere (except on stairs)
and, if the fermentation seems to stick, I can roust the yeast without
rubbing the glass on the floor.

(Cut the 2X3 into 4 pieces, ~12" each.  The plywood should be about
19X19X3/4.   Put the carboy on the plywood and lay the 12" pieces of
2X3 down, one on each side, so they just touch the carboy.  Glue them
in place.  [Elmer's wood glue works nicely.]  Put a weight on the
whole thing [another board with an empty carboy on top is enough] and
leave for 24 hours.  Turn over and attach one caster to each corner.
If you find the scrap wood you need at Lowes or a similar store, it
should cost no more than $10 or so.  [If all you can find is 1/4" or
3/8" plywood, take it and glue 2 or more pieces together.  One of mine
is 4 1/4" sheets and I can jump on it.])
- ---
[Apparent Rennerian 567.7, 95.9] 
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:58:36 -0600
From: "Bates, Floyd G" <BatesFG at bp.com>
Subject: FW:  Recovering Gambler Needs Enzyme Help

All:

Thanks so much for the responses as of late.  Mr. Renner's response in
particular stirred my curiosity.  Usually this gets me in trouble.  However,
I am hoping that I don't have to brew a Corona for this one.

Here is why I chose to have a 2.5 hour mash at 140 degrees F.  Since I found
this on the net, I am not sure as to the validity of the argument presented
below.

Any thoughts from the collective?

"One technique that will further cripple beta-amylase is a thin mash.
Enzymes are more stable when they are latched onto their substrate (the
substance they act upon), and a thin mash leaves a higher proportion of the
enzymes floating around looking for their substrate. This is one of the
reasons enzymes don't have a single optimum temperature. In any case, if you
use a thinner mash, you will produce fewer fermentables than in a thicker
mash (up to a point - you gotta have water to make wort!).
If your objective is to make a very fermentable wort for a dry beer, things
get a little more complex. For starters you really want beta-amylase to be a
happy camper. Mash in cool, say around 140 F, and give your mash a good long
hold. This will allow beta-amylase to chop up all the amylose and the tips
of the amylopectin branches. This is a good start, but there are still a lot
of glucose molecules tied up in amylopectin. The only way for beta-amylase
to make more maltose is for alpha-amylase to "open-up" amylopectin molecules
(the starch that has no branches) with a few random whacks.
If you wait around long enough, alpha-amylase will start to open up
amylopectin. Remember, its optimum activity is around 158 F, but it still is
active at cooler temperatures, though it's much slower. As alpha-amylase
opens up amylopectin, beta-amylase starts tearing into the new non-reducing
mash should still be heated to around 158 F to achieve a negative iodine
reaction. Bud Light is made using this type of mash profile, and the mash
lasts for more than three hours. Unlike many other light beers, Bud Light
wort has a low concentration of unfermentable carbohydrates and does not use
exogenous enzymes (store-bought enzymes) in the process." 

For what it is worth, I agree with Mr. Renner.



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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:09:33 +0100
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: candi-sugar

Hi,

Mark asked (HBD 3842):"can plain table sugar be substituted for the same
effect?"

>From what I know, the only differance between candi sugar and plain table
sugar is the crystal size. So the answer is yes if it concerns white candy
and white sugar. Coloured sugar (and candi) contains impurities from the
sugar source or is deliberately added.
I made a page om my site about sugar (sorry in Dutch).
http://www.hopbier.myweb.nl/chemieensuikers.htm

Greetings from Holland (Europe), Hans Aikema



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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 07:57:47 -0500 (EST)
From: ksc58 <kcada at cas.org>
Subject: Back Issues of Brewing Techniques

     I ordered a back issue of Brewing Techniques from
brewingtechniques.com on 1/16 and paid for it via PayPal.  On 1/19
I received a USPS Delivery Confirmation that it had been sent and
it arrived here in Ohio yesterday, 1/24.

     I've read a lot of grumbling here about people judging that
they were ripped off and skepticism about how this back issue
ordering would work, but I'm sure pleased!

					  Ken Cada


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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 07:07:18 -0600
From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at silganmfg.com>
Subject: dark grain use

The use of darker grains in the mash out or sparge/lauter has
some benefits of more stable melanoidin formation due to the higher
temperatures at mashout and or sparge. 
Over the years I have found that grinding the specialty grains, black,
roast, chocolate to a powder and then adding them into the mash
at the time of mash out to be effective. The resulting flavours seem
more 'rounded' and subtle. 

Also, more info can be found on melanoidins and colloidal stabilty
in a old zymurgy article on 
beer stability written in '90 or '91 (I don't recall exactly)


Micah Millspaw - brewer at large

>From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu 
>Subject: dark grains

>not capable of enlightening...but I have spoken to a good brewer at a

>pub who suggested waiting with the roasted barley, ie not placing in
>the mash, but instead adding it to the lauter-tun.  I have tried and 
>think that he is correct, that is , that it renders less harsh 
>flavor...if that is what one wants...



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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:00:10 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: new propane law

Jeff Renner writes of filling propane tanks:

> I didn't get my tanks filled, I 
>must took them to one of those exchange places.  The clerks were in 
>the dark about the differences, and I  got the new ones at no cost 
>other than the premium you pay to exchange.  What's more, they were 
>brand new.

Now I know why I like Jeff, he's sneaky like me.  I had an old tank which
might not pass inspection because of it's old, cruddy valve.  Rather than
buy a new one, I exchanged it at the gas station for slightly more than the
cost of the propane itself.  No questions asked.  I now have a new tank with
the overfill protection which does not need to be inspected for 7 years.
You can also do the same with your CO2 tank.  Since I paid cash for mine, I
always ask for my tank back when I get it filled.  But once it comes close
to the hydro test date or needs a new valve, I'm going to pull my name off
of it and just exchange it.  Let them absorb the cost.

If only you could do this with car, house, SPOUSE...  ;-)

Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen A. Pannicke

glen at pannicke.net          http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F  214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"I have made this letter longer than usual,
because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal




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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:28:22 -0600
From: Peter Torgrimson <petertorgrimson at prodigy.net>
Subject: Re:   Carboys...


Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com> writes:

> I found nice rubber coated handles at my brew shop here that clamps
onto the neck of the > carboy....makes it easy to carry around full or
empty....

I also use these handles and they are great.  However, I read somewhere
that carrying a full carboy by the handle could cause the carboy to
break at the neck.  Since then, I carry it with the handle, but also
support it on the bottom.  I am thinking about switching to the milk
crate solution after hearing about all the gruesome carboy accidents..

Does anybody have any information about this?  Obviously, carrying it by
the handle alone puts tremendous stress on the neck area.

Peter Torgrimson
Austin, TX





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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:19:49 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Carboys...

Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com> wrote:

>I found nice rubber coated handles at my brew shop here that clamps onto the
>neck of the carboy....makes it easy to carry around full or empty....
>
>I'd recommend getting one for each of your carboys....makes life MUCH
>easier...

I agree.  Another help is a plastic milk crate for each carboy.  It 
also makes it easier to carry and protects them from bumps.  A five 
gallon carboy fits with some extra space; a seven gallon fits snuggly.

And a warning - you shouldn't carry a full carboy by the neck handle 
alone - a few people have reported on HBD that the neck snapped off. 
I use the handle and the crate.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:29:45 -0500
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Green Beer / Pale Ale Experiment

On green beer-
	Thanks to Jeff Renner to pointing out that no one in Ireland drinks
green beer.  I will confess to having been naive enough to think that
breweries actually made a set quantity of green beer just for St.
Patrick's day and was impressed that the bars never had any left over. 
But then, this was the 70s and my beers of choice were Schoenling Little
Kings and Rolling Rock, so you have to consider the source.

On the various beer experiments-
	The Bloatarians have run what we call a "Fixed Recipe Competition" for
several years.  The entry fee includes everything but the yeast and
water - we've done both extract and all-grain versions of the
competition.  The resulting brews have a remarkable range of flavors -
even the extract versions.  The only rule is that you must use all of
the ingredients supplied - the details are left to the individual
brewer.  This, of course, leads to a broader range of variation than
would be likely from a specified brewing program, but that's part of the fun.
	I can recommend it as a club event - the biggest problem is getting the
recipe kits available long enough ahead of time for enough people to
brew.  We work a deal through Listermann's retail shop so people can buy
their kits when they get other supplies.  

Dave Harsh						Cincinati, OH
Bloatarian Brewing League            [Too lazy to bother] Rennerian



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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:48:00 -0600
From: Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: Re:best all around grain/storage...

How about keeping them in the freezer?  I have a large chest freezer, and I
keep my large bags of flour, etc. there to keep bugs out.(A problem in the
deep south).

But, wouldn't this work well if you have the large freezers?

Kelly

On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 12:14:22AM -0500, after pounding the keys randomly,
Rama Roberts came up with....
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 14:14:11 -0800 (PST)
> From: Rama Roberts <rama at eng.sun.com>
> Subject: best all around pale malt/grain storage
> 
> I imagine this is largely a matter of taste, but I'll be purchasing a
> 50-55lb sack of a base malt shortly and am looking for opinions on what
> would be a good choice. Something that could be used in the majority of
> recipes. I'm leaning towards Maris Otter pale.
> 
> Also, what's the consensus on how long you can store uncrushed grains
> (double bagged, reasonable temperatures, etc) before degradation becomes
> an issue? Two years or so?
> 
> thanks-
> Rama Roberts
> San Francisco bay area
- ------------------
No more Outlook....
Proudly using Mutt on Linux
- ------------------


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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 07:17:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Stroud Steve <stevegstroud at yahoo.com>
Subject: Good beer bar in New Orleans

dba, the great beer bar in Manhattan, has a sister bar in NO.  Good
draft list (including a couple of cask conditioned offerings) and a
great bottled selection.

See  http://www.drinkgoodstuff.com/fr_beer_no.htm for the beer list
and
http://www.drinkgoodstuff.com/fr_info_no.htm for hours and directions

Steve



 .



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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:44:04 -0500
From: "Cindy & Walt" <walcin1 at home.com>
Subject: Do You Scoop?

Hello to the great collective,

    I am an all grain brewer (yes, with whirrygig) and like the beers I
make.  I'm wondering if you scoop the foam that appears on the top of the
newly started boil.  I typically boil for about 10 minutes prior to adding
hops and remove the foam that forms.  I seem to remember reading to do that
somewhere.  Of coarse if you FWH you can't remove that foam.  Do you?  If
you don't, why not?
    Now a brief survey, if a buddy said that he just brewed up his "Smokey
Porter", a really good brew, but found that the rauchmalt was buggy, would
you drink it?  I was done my milling and found those little buggers crawling
around.  Well I'm cheap!  I would have had to throw away 9 pounds of malt. I
didn't, I brewed.  I do intend on telling anyone who may have one that it is
"Buggy, Smokey Porter" tm.

Thanks for your input,
Walt Crowder  -  in Medford New Jersey (don't know my coordinates)



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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:52:22 EST
From: GordonRick at aol.com
Subject: Bad brew days

Still laughing about the Kitty/Rauch/CAP episode. Makes my brew day look 
really relaxing. My worst experience was watching my brew kettle, with 6 or 
so gallons of just boiled wort, topple off of the cooker  when I pulled on 
the garden hose connected to the immersion chiller. To borrow a phrase, 
"crap".

The recent swing-top discussion reminded me of the trick we used to play on 
"newbies" when I was stationed in Bamberg with the Army in the early 
eighties. You would tell them that the only "cool" way to open the swing-top 
was to hold it by the neck with one hand and "chop" the cap off with your 
index and middle finger of the other hand. You would than demonstrate by 
cooly whacking the top aside with one swift motion. What you didn't let them 
see was that you were discreetly and simultainiously popping the wire bail 
with your thumb on the bottle holding hand. If your timing was just right, 
the top would pop right off as sweet as anything. Of course the newcomers 
efforts would be disasterous and generally accompanied by a lot of "GI 
language". Always good for a few laughs (and a few bruised fingers). 

Prost!
Rick Gordon
530, 180 Ren


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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:50:09 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: diluted IBU, no-boil kits, wasted money, force carbs, step ma

Rodney (variant: wild) asks:

> Well, I just brewed up a stout and overshot my target OG 
> (1065 instead of 1045).  I had six gallons of wort in the 
> fermentor and added 3 gallons of water to bring the OG down 
> to 1044. My question is, how large an impact will the 
> addition of three gallons of water to six gallons of wort 
> have on the finished beer's bitterness (prediluted IBU=30)?  

I've always assumed a linear relationship. If I dilute my wort with 50% more
water, I should end up with 50% less bittering, or 20 IBU. You've ruined
your beer, throw it out. ;-) Next...

Matthew Tolley writes with an Australian accent:
> 
> Erk - you've been sucked in by the Crocodile Man, so I guess 
> it was only a matter of time before somebody tried to 
> convince you poor Americans that no-boil kits were a good idea :)

IMO, true no-boil kits are a great idea. If you don't want to be a brewer.
However, I only regard the high gravity worts such as Brewhouse to be
no-boilers. They are simple, tasty, convenient ways to end up with beer. And
you can proudly tell your friends, "I've taken up wort fermenting as a
hobby". Next...

Bob Barrett maligns my wasteful nature thusly:  
> 
> Mixing up 5 gallons of PBW to clean a 5 gallon or even a 6.5 
> gallon carboy is a waste of PBW and money.  Same thing with sanitizer.

Jeez, Bob, it's not like I'm using a sparge arm. ;-) Even if I were to be
buying PBW and Star San at retail prices (which I don't), that's about $2.00
and $1.30 CDN respectively for 5 gallon solutions. The Star San lasts me for
weeks or months (depending on how careful I am to keep crud out) and with 5
gallons, I can just toss stuff in and submerge it for the most part. 5
gallons of PBW does a lot of cleaning for me. Not just the brew day's stuff,
some kegs that need a good degunking, or giving a case or two of bottles a
good soak. Again, more volume, less work for me and my scrubbing arm (which
of course is already sore from not having a motorized malt mill). There are
always trade-offs, and if people want to choose ease over thriftiness, or
vice versa, I don't see why that should bother anyone else. Next...

Double-not Renner brings up a couple of things I would like to pursue:
> 
> So if my target is, say, 12 psi at 45 deg F, I'll end up (when things 
> go right), bubbling the very last CO2 at exactly that.  Voila!  The 
> equilibrium that you seek, achieved in less than a half hour.

The question I wonder about with force carbonating relates not so much with
getting the quantity of carbonation you desire, but the quality. When you
blast the CO2 into solution over a half hour, instead of a couple weeks, do
you not get the impression that the carbonation is not stable, that it will
go flat more quickly in the glass? I tend to be a slow sipper, not a
quaffer, so perhaps this is more of an issue for me. Over time, they should
be indistinguishable, but right off the hop (sorry), I would suspect a
poorer carbonation.

> Mash 154F 60 minutes.  Actually, though, I did a 40/60/70C mash (30 
> minutes at each step) adding the corn at 60C.  The 40C rest may have 
> helped break down beta-glucans in the barley, and passing from 40 to 
> 60 over 30 minutes or so effectively gave me a protein rest, which 
> may have made the beer clearer.  Irish moss might not hurt.

My question here is, when you talk about spending 30 minutes at each temp,
does that include time needed to get to the next level? Or would you spend
30 minutes at 40, then another 30 minutes getting to 60, then 30 minutes
there, etc etc? Is a slow ramp better than a fast one?

Finally, my buddy has suffered some misfortune with his water furnace
system, and the end result is he had to have a heat exchanger replaced. This
thing sounds essentially like a counterflow chiller. The cooling jacket has
sprung a leak, and can likely be repaired, and he believes the inner coil to
be intact. The total length of tubing is about 15 feet, is that enough for
use in chilling my wort? Also, the inner tubing held coolant and some kind
of lubricating oil, from what he tells me. Can I expect to be able to clean
this adequately enough to use for my brewing?

Whoo, that was a read wasn't it. Everyone still with me, or did you all just
page down upon seeing my header? Hello?

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg



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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:01:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Chad Holley <em2hurley at yahoo.com>
Subject: Homebrew Clubs in the surrounding Flint area?

I'm a long time lurker and first time poster.  I live
in Grand Blanc, MI (close to Flint) and was wondering
if anyone knew of a club close to me.  I checked
HBD.org and the closest one listed is Cass River club
that meets up in the Saginaw area.  If no one out
there knows of one, any tips or suggestions from the
collective on how their clubs got their start? Or,
anyone in my area interested in getting together to
share some knowledge and brews?  Thanks in advance for
any replies.  Private E-mails would be fine by me.

Chad Holley
Grand Blanc, MI

About 50 miles north of the center of the Brewing Universe



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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:28:10 -0600
From: "Scott Basil" <sbasil at glasgow-ky.com>
Subject: soda fountains

has anybody tried to convert a used soda fountain, like the portable ones they
sell coke out of at little league games?  They appear similar to a draft
settup, with the taps and all, but how do you deal with the water/syrup lines,
etc?  I can get one cheap, so it is worth a try...



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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:47:56 -0600
From: DHinrichs at Quannon.com
Subject: Hop aroma

In HBD #3848 Ray Daniels writes:

>Now, hop aromas come from the volatile oils in the hops.  The extent to
>which the oils are dissolved and retained in the beer very much depends on
>the conditions surrounding their addition---as well as subsequent handling
>and processing of the beer.  Too cool for too short a time and you may not
>get the oils extracted from the hops.  Too hot for too long and they
>disappear into the atmosphere around your brewery (or as Pierre Celis once
>said, "In this case it is just for the neighbors, yes?").

My question is what is a good starting point to get the hop aroma I so
desperately want. Wort temp, exposure time, hop amount? Now Ray points out
many other factors that can influence the final results. So to help narrow
the field I will list a typical brew for to start with.

German lager, 1.050 OG, Bavarian lager yeast, using noble hops, immersion
chilled in about 20 minutes. Single infusion, gravity feed three tier
system. Total temp controlled fermentation 58dF to start.

If this question is too difficult to get answer then perhaps it could be
answered another way. What should NOT be done? Or what have the collective
found to be usefull?



 *******************************************************
* Dave Hinrichs          E-Mail: dhinrichs at quannon.com *
* Quannon CAD Systems, Inc.      Voice: (952) 935-3367 *
* 6101 Baker Road, Suite 204       FAX: (952) 935-0409 *
* Minnetonka, MN 55345                                 *
*                http://www.quannon.com/               *
********************************************************


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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:01:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: Minimal Allgrain Setup?


I've been considering upgrading from my present all grain setup to
something more substantial but yet take up a minimum of space. Has/Does
anyone use the same vessel for mashing/boiling? Any thoughts as to the
ease of this?



 Steven St.Laurent ::: steven at 403forbidden.net ::: 403forbidden.net
			[580.2, 181.4] Rennerian



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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:56:08 -0500
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Hop Character

Ray Daniels offers on hop character variations in the Norwegian Pale Ale
experiment:
> "Too hot for too long and they disappear into the
> atmosphere around your brewery (or as Pierre Celis
> once said, "In this case it is just for the
> neighbors, yes?").

Having been downwind of the Celis Brewery on many an occasion, I can say
that the neighbors are not entirely unappreciative of the effect.  (Come to
think of it, I've never noticed the same effect around the A-B Brewery in
Newark ...)

Another aspect of technique that I've often pondered is the use of
immersion v. counterflow chillers, and how they affect hop volatiles and
utilization.  This may be what Ray was getting at.  At what temp does the
utilization clock stop ticking?

I'm toying with using dual chillers in my system - an immersion unit in the
kettle, then through a CFC unit to maintain flavor and aroma, yet getting
good cold break and fast/deep chilling.

Anyone with knowledge out there?  Egads!  Could this be fodder for a
'spearmint?


Mark in Kalamazoo
Arhstrom Bryggeri




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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:15:21 -0500
From: Tony Verhulst <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: Re: RIMS Heater control


> Well, Drew, it's like this:
 
> ...control an SSR, .... 555 timer circuit, .... PWM output between 5 and
> 95% duty cycle. .... microcontroller PID  .... The PWM box on the SSR works  
>..... my PIC16F877-based dual PID ..  delta-T boosts.... max delta-T, and
> usa a simple PID alg to account for heat losses during rests.
> 
> Hence the redesign.

I threw about US$50 at the problem (for a Ranco controller) and maybe
another US$75 for the rest of the control panel - most of which you
won't need if you run at 120VAC. See
http://world.std.com/~verhulst/RIMS/panel_001.htm. Works great!!

Tony V.
http://world.std.com/~verhulst/RIMS/rims.htm


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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:57:48 -0500
From: Carl Schulze <carl at internetcsi.com>
Subject: Whirlygiggles

Hate to admit it, but the one time I did an AG without using my sparger 
I couldn't shake the feeling that something was terribly wrong.   That 
"skree..skree...skree" sound is a necessary part of my brew day!

Whirl On!!!

Carl Schulze
Kearny, NJ



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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 18:15:20 -0800
From: "Kirk Fleming" <kirkfleming at earthlink.net>
Subject: Whirlygigs, One More Time

Well, I didn't mean to imply there was anything evil, wrong, or anything
else inherently negative about using a sparge arm. My opinion is that their
use is completely unecessary, that's all, and that if someone is having
trouble with it, the most effective way to cut losses is to not use one.
I've spent many, many hours doing brewing-related stuff that many other
brewers would say is a total waste of time as well, yet I still chose to do
it. No problem!

The request was, basically, how do I get this thing to work. I merely
suggested an alternative to fixing a problem is to avoid solving it
altogether. That may not be the best way to 'help' someone--but my view is
that if I can get my entire ensemble of brewing gear down to about 8 pieces
total, I'm happier!

I'll say it again--there's nothing wrong with the technique, I have nothing
against the Listerman (or any other) product or its manufacturer,
whatsoever, and I don't think any less of anyone who chooses to use one. A
pH meter is totally unecessary for world class brewing as well, IMO. I have
nothing against its use, anyone who chooses to use one, or against any
manufacturers of pH meters! I have one, and use it--'cause I like to
occassionally.

Finally, I sincerely apologize to anyone whom I may have offended--it was a
pretty strong opinion stately a little rudely!!

Kirk Fleming
FRSL, FRSE



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---