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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Beer, wine, light damage & brown bottles (Calvin Perilloux)
  Diluting wort and hop bitterness (Wild_Rodney)
  best all around pale malt/grain storage (Rama Roberts)
  New Orleans brew scene (SimondsVachow)
  shapes of things to come ("Mark Tumarkin")
  RIMS Heater control ("Dave Howell")
  No-boil kits (TOLLEY Matthew)
  belgium brewing schools ("Braam Greyling")
  No Hop Aroma in Pale Ale Experiment ("Ray Daniels")
  Re:  Homebrewed Aeroplains ;<) (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
  Re: Carboys (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
  Re: Carboys... (Kelly Grigg)
  Re: Propane Burner and New Laws... (Kelly Grigg)
  Re: No-boil kits & tired of all-grain ("Drew Avis")
  Re: To shake or not to shake, that is the question (Jeff Renner)
  new propane law (Jeff Renner)
  Pub-detecting watch set to change the world (hbd)
  No-boil beer kits (Calvin Perilloux)
  Re: Quick RIMS question (Rob Dewhirst)
  Re: Yeast profile questions, St. Patrick's Day Beer.. (Jeff Renner)
  alternative St Paddy's brew (Jeff Renner)
  Pale Ale Experiment ("Jens Maudal")
  RE: Shaking ...; Rotating sparge arms (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  forcing carbonation (PVanslyke)
  Oxyclean as a sanitizer? ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  hops in Bud? (Aleconner)
  Re: Oxyclean as a sanitizer? (Project One)
  Brewing Techniques (grayling)


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Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:55:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Beer, wine, light damage & brown bottles

Dave Houseman suspects that the "European flavor" is caused by   

>> ...the reaction is due to energy being imparted to the hops   
>> resins in the beer.  Light is one way to provide that energy. 
>> But heat from a long transport at sea in a cargo container    
>> on the deck of ship may result in the same effect.            
                                                                 
However, the chemical reaction causing skunkiness is not caused  
by just any old type of energy, but instead by a very specific   
bandwidth of light that excites/resonates specific chemical bonds
in the bittering compounds to be altered.  Heat alone will not   
cause that specific reaction.  What heat (and motion) CAN cause, 
though, is that other hallmark of some Euro imports, which is    
oxidation and staleness.                                         
                                                                 
Note that some large brewing companies use an altered version    
of the bittering agents which is not prone to the aforementioned 
reaction that creates the skunky mercaptans.                     

Calvin Perilloux             
Middletown, Maryland, USA    




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Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:06:47 -0900
From: Wild_Rodney <Wild_Rodney at asdk12.org>
Subject: Diluting wort and hop bitterness

Well, I just brewed up a stout and overshot my target OG (1065 instead of
1045).  I had six gallons of wort in the fermentor and added 3 gallons of
water to bring the OG down to 1044. My question is, how large an impact will
the addition of three gallons of water to six gallons of wort have on the
finished beer's bitterness (prediluted IBU=30)?  

Thanks,

 -Rodney


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Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 14:14:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at eng.sun.com>
Subject: best all around pale malt/grain storage

I imagine this is largely a matter of taste, but I'll be purchasing a
50-55lb sack of a base malt shortly and am looking for opinions on what
would be a good choice. Something that could be used in the majority of
recipes. I'm leaning towards Maris Otter pale.

Also, what's the consensus on how long you can store uncrushed grains
(double bagged, reasonable temperatures, etc) before degradation becomes
an issue? Two years or so?

thanks-
Rama Roberts
San Francisco bay area




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Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:05:29 EST
From: SimondsVachow at aol.com
Subject: New Orleans brew scene

Tim inquires about the New Orleans brew scene for a trip he'll make in April. 
 First, check your dates.  The Crescent City Homebrew Competition and 
Crawfish Boil will be held April 12 and 13 at the Deutsches Haus, the 
outstandingly tacky meeting place of the local German community--lots of 
great beer, good people and mountains of spicy crawfish.  If you're in town 
later in the month for Jazz Fest, then I recommend making a trip out to Mid 
City to Acadian Brewing, New Orleans only micro-brewer.  Their pilsener is 
one of the best brewed in this country by my reckoning.  Have dinner at the 
legendary New Orleans eatery Mandina's on Canal St. on your way out, then ice 
cream at a great old Italian ice cream place called Angelo Brocato's on 
Carrollton, then repair across the street to Acadian .  I wouldn't go out of 
my way to drink beer at the Crescent City Brewhouse (in the Quarter).  The 
beer is mediocre and the prices are steep by New Orleans standards.  

If you're up for a day trip, head across the lake to Abita Springs and visit 
the Abita Brewery.  Do it for the scenery however.  Abita's beers are not all 
that engaging, but Abita Spring's a pretty little piney woods town as is 
nearby (and more upscale) Covington which has a nice little beer bar (name 
escapes me now) and a little farmer's market on Saturdays.  There are some 
nice bike trails in the area.  

Back in New Orleans, you'll find a couple of beer bars with nice selections.  
Cooter Brown's is Uptown near Tulane University.  It can be overrun with frat 
pukes on a Thursday or Friday night.  Take the streetcar out of the Quarter, 
throw the frisbee for an hour or two at Audubon Park then walk a couple of 
blocks toward the river bend and have an early afternoon pint or two at 
Cooter Brown's.  In the Quarter you'll find mostly discounted Bud, but there 
are a few oases.  O'Flaherty's (on Bienville near Decatur) is a respectable 
Irish pub, not the cartoon kind but the kind that always has County Cork 
soccer matches on, drop-in folk musicians and a seemingly endless supply of 
barkeeps from the homeland.  They serve the Guinness at the proper temp.  
Over in the Faubourg Marigny, you'll find dba (you've seen one in NYC 
perhaps), a beer bar that has stuff on tap I know for a fact is not 
distributed into Louisiana.  Just drink it; don't ask.  The Marigny is a good 
place to spend an evening.  Snug Harbor, arguably the city's top jazz venue 
is a few doors down as is Cafe Brasil, a music venue that tends to attract 
Latin, reggae and some funk acts.  It's a great place to be, well away from 
the hurricane swigging mayhem on Bourbon St.  

Last beer scene place I recommend is the Brew Ha Ha, the city's only homebrew 
supply shop.  Elvis Karnowski, an outstanding homebrewer in his own right, 
owns the place.  His shop is Uptown on Magazine St. on the Metairie side of 
Napoleon Ave.  Tell him I sent you.    

I envy you the trip.  We moved away after 11 years and miss New Orleans in a 
heart-rending sort of way. . . more soul in a section of New Orleans sidewalk 
than most of the country put together.  



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Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:10:32 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: shapes of things to come

call this educational, or maybe just for fun...
how many did you get the first time through?

http://www.chilliman.com/beer_labels_frame.htm




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Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:12:09 -0700
From: "Dave Howell" <djhowell at cableaz.com>
Subject: RIMS Heater control

In HBD #3847, Drew Avis asks:

"If so, do you run the heater at 120 or
240 V?  How do you control the heater (other than on/off)?"


Well, Drew, it's like this:

I run mine at 120V.   I currently use a cheap DC motor control kit to
control an SSR, which switches the heating coil.  The motor control has a 5k
pot controlling a 555 timer circuit, which varies a PWM output between 5 and
95% duty cycle.

I have a microcontroller PID project that's constantly in upgrade.
Currently it's in about 8 peices on my breadboards while I do a major
redesign.  I'm also sidetracked with a digital refrigerator controller
project (the analog one keeps falling out of tune, and is a real pita to
use).

The PWM box on the SSR works real well for both boosts and holding temps.
120V is not likely to char the wort unless you have a stuck mash.  It gives
about a 1.8 - 1.9 deg F/min rise in my system (I just put a lid on the
mashtun.  You might see a slight improvement if you insulate the whole tun).

220V is expensive in cabling, wall outlet, and a UL-listed GFCI.  You can
easily make a GFCI with a small microcontroller (or even a comparator or
op-amp) and a coil form, plus an SCR, BUT it's not UL-listed.

I plan on returning my PIC16F877-based dual PID to service when I can.  It's
being redesigned to limit the temperature differential across the heater
chamber to a user-settable value during boosts, then do small delta-T boosts
in PID (maintain temp during rests) mode.  Then, I think I can return to
220V.  FWIW, in my heater chamber a 220V 50% duty cycle with a relatively
free-flowing mash (it's a 5000W element) gave me a 4.2 deg F delta-T
(depending on the mash size, this can be as much as 6 deg F/min rise rate).
It charred the wort onto the element like you wouldn't believe.  Rather than
'tune' the PID, I think it's better to limit the max delta-T, and use a
simple PID alg to account for heat losses during rests.

Hence the redesign.

But I'm only doing the microcontroller PID stuff because I like
microcontrollers, not because I think it brews better beer.  It's certainly
not cheaper.  (Besides, my beer's faults are fermentation faults, not
mashing faults.  See above statement regarding analog temp controllers on
freezers.)

I like RIMS because I don't have to stir, I think sparging is simplified,
and because it gives me an excuse to play with microcontrollers (as opposed
to say, a motorized mixer).

Now, if I could just think of a brewing-related project that would need an
embedded 68k...  anyone need a refrigerator controller that sends you email
when it's getting low on homebrew?


Dave Howell
Mesa, AZ
[1630.2, 247.7] Rennerian

THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the
sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their
country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and
woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this
consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the
triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness
only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper
price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an
article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.
                -- Thomas Paine, "The Crisis No. 1"




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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:25:06 +1100
From: TOLLEY Matthew <matthew.tolley at atsic.gov.au>
Subject: No-boil kits

From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>

>On a similar topic, I was wondering if anybody has noticed or
>followed the recent new "no boil" trend regarding 'kit' brews
>(the liquid kit cans that are pre-hopped and blended for a
>certain "style")...Anybody out there tried this?

Erk - you've been sucked in by the Crocodile Man, so I guess it was only a
matter of time before somebody tried to convince you poor Americans that
no-boil kits were a good idea :)

'Kit and a kilo' is probably the way most Australians brew, and is the
reason why homebrewing is such a dirty word here.  A 1.7kg/3.75lb can of
prehopped (iso-hopped, that is) extract, a single sachet of dried yeast
under the lid, and the worst instructions you could ever hope to see:

Chuck a few litres of boiling water in the bottom of your fermenter.  Stir
in the extract and a kilo of sugar.  Top it up to the 23L/6 gal mark with
cold water.  Sprinkle your yeast over the top of the wort.  Whack on the
lid, and try to keep your beer nice and warm - 25oC/77oF should do nicely.
After a week, chuck it into bottles, adding a couple of teaspoons of white
sugar to each one.  Wait til you can't wait any longer (say, another week),
then drink up!

Common faults are oxidation, infection, very high levels of acetaldehyde and
exploding bottles.  The beers tend to taste pretty much the same - cidery
and worty, with no hop flavour or aroma to speak of.  They all come with the
same ale yeast, even the 'lager' kits (you ferment those at 25oC/77oF too!)

It's not all bad news - Eastern Suburbs Brewery (http://www.esb.net.au) in
Sydney make a range of very good 3kg no-boil kits designed to make all-malt
beers.  Opening the lid reveals fresh hops floating around in the extract,
and they have (from memory) half-decent instructions.  Apparently the
Bavarian Wheat kit with a liquid hefeweizen yeast took out a major prize in
a comp a while back.  If the new American kits are all malt, use fresh hops
and have a decent yeast under the lid, give them a go - just pay special
attention to sanitation, and ignore any instructions that go against common
sense (like pitching dried yeast, fermenting at heatwave temps, and bottling
too soon).

Cheers!
 ...Matt...



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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:20:48 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: belgium brewing schools

Hi all,

A friend of mine wants to go and study authentic Belgium Brewing 
in Belgium. 
Can anyone recommend and/or provide information on what 
Universities and or schools provide courses ?
How many brewing schools are there in Belgium.

Any info will be highly appreciated. 

Braam Greyling
Snr. Design Engineer
Azoteq(Pty)Ltd
Tel +27 21 8630033  Fax +27 21 8631512



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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 05:46:06 -0600
From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net>
Subject: No Hop Aroma in Pale Ale Experiment

Jens Maudal discusses the results of a Norwegian pale ale experiment and
notes:  "What we did find rather odd though was the difference in hop aroma.
After the kettle heat was turned off the recipe stated 25 gr (almost 2 oz)
of finishing hops (E K Goldings), this should be plenty to give a nice hop
aroma which it did in 3 - 4 of the beers, but just as many didn't have any
aroma what so ever."

First the math:  25 grams of hops equal 0.88 ounces, not "almost 2" as
stated, so the amount was rather less than indicated.  (After two years of
checking those # at *! metric conversions in Zymurgy, this jumped out at me!)

Next, it is evident from the other results reported that there was
tremendous variation in the final beers. One possibility is that the
intensity of hop aroma may have been the same in a larger number of beers,
but other characteristics of the finished product may have hidden the hop
aroma or interfered with its perception.  The presence of diacetyl, for
instance, could definitely interfere with your perception of a hop aroma.  A
particularly thick head or low carbonation might also influence perception.

Now, hop aromas come from the volatile oils in the hops.  The extent to
which the oils are dissolved and retained in the beer very much depends on
the conditions surrounding their addition---as well as subsequent handling
and processing of the beer.  Too cool for too short a time and you may not
get the oils extracted from the hops.  Too hot for too long and they
disappear into the atmosphere around your brewery (or as Pierre Celis once
said, "In this case it is just for the neighbors, yes?").

Other possible factors (although admittedly somewhat speculative): formation
and separation of the cold break which might trap oil components, use of
"blow off" for the foam during fermentation (various authors have shown that
hop components are present in this foam---although that was mostly
bitterness, I believe), type of yeast (if they weren't all the same) and
contact time with the yeast (possible adsorption of oils).  One could even
imagine the transfer methods, carbonation technique and dispense might have
an impact on expression of aroma components. Heck, British ale purists get
into fights over the use of sparklers on beer engines and a key qualitative
argument is that they change the hop aroma of the beer.

Such experiments beautifully illustrate the importance of the brewer and her
or his process in making beer.  While a great recipe is an essential
starting point, that alone does not guarantee your results.

Ray Daniels [197.8, 264.2] Apparent Rennerian
Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer
Director, Brewers Publications

Call Customer Service at 888-822-6273 to subscribe or order individual
magazines.
Don't Miss:
Real Ale Festival - Feb 27 - March 2, 2002 - Chicago, IL
www.realalefestival.com



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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:38:09 -0500
From: "Barrett, Bob (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
Subject: Re:  Homebrewed Aeroplains ;<)

Phil Wilcox asks:  
>Has anyone tried to carry unlabeled homebrew onto an airplane since
>9-11?????

>I am not sure I want to try that trick or not.....

Phil,  Kim and I carried on a six pack of plastic brown screw top bottles
to Cancun at Thanksgiving.  No problems at all.  The bottles were in 
our carry on bag in full view.  We also returned from St. Louis in 
October with a growler in our carry on with no problems.  When we
went to Florida in December we shipped a case of plastic bottles as
regular luggage.  Again, no problems.  None of the plastic bottles 
had labels.  


We make the beer we drink!!!
Bob Barrett
Ann Arbor, Mi
(2.8, 103.6 Rennerian)


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:52:01 -0500
From: "Barrett, Bob (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
Subject: Re: Carboys

Bill Wible writes:
>Second, use PBW.  I found it to be the best cleaner out there.
>4 tablespoons in 5 gallons, let it soak overnight.  

Mixing up 5 gallons of PBW to clean a 5 gallon or even a 6.5 gallon
carboy is a waste of PBW and money.  Mix up about 2 gallons and
use the brush.  Put a rubber stopper in the opening, turn it upside
down and let it sit over night.  Next day use the brush again.  The 
carboy is clean and your PBW lasts much longer.  Not to mention
the carboy is much lighter to pick up and move around.

Same thing with sanitizer.  I mix 2 gallons of Star San and rack it
into the carboy.  Put a rubber stopper in the opening and lay it on
the carpeted floor and roll it for 3-5 minutes.  No need to mix up
5 gallons.  It just needs to make contact with the inside walls.

My $0.02!!!

We make the beer we drink!!!
Bob Barrett
Ann Arbor, Mi
(2.8, 103.6 Rennerian)


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:04:59 -0600
From: Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: Re: Carboys...

I found nice rubber coated handles at my brew shop here that clamps onto the
neck of the carboy....makes it easy to carry around full or empty....

I'd recommend getting one for each of your carboys....makes life MUCH 
easier...

HTH,

Kelly

On Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 12:15:20AM -0500, after pounding the keys randomly,
Bill came up with....
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:16:30 -0500
> From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
> Subject: Re: Carboys
> 
> Dan,
> 
> Yeah, carboys are hard to clean and handle, but here's a couple
> tips that might help.
> 
> First, get a good carboy brush.  These can usually be bent into
> a shape that will clean the carboy.  I've found the toughest part
> to clean is the ring around the neck, but the brush gets right there.
> 

- ------------------
No more Outlook....
Proudly using Mutt on Linux
- ------------------


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:11:10 -0600
From: Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: Re: Propane Burner and New Laws...

Aside from sentimental reasons for staying with your old stuff....
Just spend the $20 for a new regular tank...and about another $30 for a
burner stand with a regulator and hose on it....

Its not worth worrying over for $50.....IMHO...

:-)

Just fork out a little cash....and get to enjoying brewing. Heck, buy two
tanks...that way, you never run out....I have about 4 of them, but, then 
again, I live in New Orleans, and you have to have them at all times for
brewing, boiling crawfish/crabs, and the gas grill.....

Kelly

On Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 12:15:20AM -0500, after pounding the keys randomly, 
Nils came up with....
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:06:20 -0800
> From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
> Subject: Propane Burner Question & New Law
> 
> Hi,
>   I finally brewed up a batch in my new 10 gal kettle & found my old burner
> wanting.  I'm trying to figure out what to replace it with & am unclear on
> the high vs low pressure burners.  I'd like to continue to use my current
> tank & hose, but I'm not sure what type they are.  The tank is smaller than
> the standard propane tank, it's actually been laughed at when I take it to
> be filled because it's so small.  It holds just over 1 gallon of propane &
><snip> 
>   Also, I'm not sure if this is already been announced, but I heard that
> after March or April 1st, only propane tanks with an Overflow Shutoff Valve
> will be filled.  I don't know if that's a California or Federal law, but I
> know a number of brewers that are going to have to buy new tanks.
> 
> Thanks for your help,
> Nils Hedglin
> Sacramento, CA
> 
- ------------------
No more Outlook....
Proudly using Mutt on Linux
- ------------------


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:21:52 -0500
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: No-boil kits & tired of all-grain

Dan Ippolito is tired of all-grain.  Bill Wible asks about no-boil kits.  I
think you're both looking for Brewhouse kits from Spagnols in Vancouver, BC.
I've made several (yes, sometimes there's no time for all-grain, and the
kegs are running dry) and have been very impressed with the quality of the
beer they produce.  They are all a tad sweet (ie underhopped), and all ship
with a dry ale yeast (Coopers or Nottingham) which can be replaced with a
more style-appropriate strain.  I can usually pick one of these kits up for
CDN$20, which isn't much more than I can make an all-grain batch for...

Cheers!
Drew Avis, Merrickville, Ontario ~ http://www.strangebrew.ca
I think people tend to forget that trees are living creatures. They're sort
of like dogs. Huge, quiet, motionless dogs, with bark instead of fur.




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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:26:22 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: To shake or not to shake, that is the question

Larry Bristol <Larry at DoubleLuck.com> wrote about accelerated force 
carbonating at high pressure with shaking:

>The down side of these techniques is that the carbonation level in your
>keg of beer is not in a state of equilibrium.  And this means it will
>change over time.  I like my beer to remain constant over time.  Of
>course, if you drink the entire keg before it changes, then this is not
>a problem!  :-)

I think you've missed an important point, at least in then way I do 
this.  While I start with high pressure (as high as 35 psi), I have 
learned to judge how close to my target I am getting by the speed at 
which the gas bubbles in.  Then I will turn the pressure down, again 
to judge the speed of the bubbles.  If I judge that I am still a ways 
from my target, I'll jack the pressure back up.  If it bubbles 
slowly, I'll keep the pressure lower, but still above target to speed 
things up.  Then as I get close to target carbonation, I'll turn the 
pressure to the target.

So if my target is, say, 12 psi at 45 deg F, I'll end up (when things 
go right), bubbling the very last CO2 at exactly that.  Voila!  The 
equilibrium that you seek, achieved in less than a half hour.

Of course, there have been a few times when I overshot my target and 
had to vent excess gas or put up with foamy beer.  But usually I hit 
it about right.

Still, I'd rather not rush things and just let time do its thing. 
But it's nice to have a method when time is short.

jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:37:15 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: new propane law

Nils Hedglin writes from Sacramento, CA

>I heard that
>after March or April 1st, only propane tanks with an Overflow Shutoff Valve
>will be filled.  I don't know if that's a California or Federal law, but I
>know a number of brewers that are going to have to buy new tanks.

I think this is a federal law.  It may be too late to do this now, 
but when this was first announced, I didn't get my tanks filled, I 
must took them to one of those exchange places.  The clerks were in 
the dark about the differences, and I  got the new ones at no cost 
other than the premium you pay to exchange.  What's more, they were 
brand new.

Might still work.

Jeff

- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:40:23 -0500
From: hbd at rfischer.mailshell.com
Subject: Pub-detecting watch set to change the world

Scientists have finally found a worthwhile use for technology and placed a
pub-detecting global positioning system inside a wristwatch.

The watch provides the wearer with the location of the nearest four pubs
and his/her distance from each one.

http://www.silicon.com/bin/bladerunner?30REQEVENT=&
REQAUTH=21046&14001REQSUB=REQINT1=50470

Future versions will detect the nearest mensroom  ;-)

Russ



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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 06:43:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: No-boil beer kits

>>... wondering if anybody has noticed or followed the recent new 
>> "no boil" trend regarding 'kit' brews

This works.  Really.  I had made kit beers before with just a
10 minute boil, and they came out OK, but I have to admit that
I was pretty skeptical when I first heard about No-Boil.  But 
a few years ago my pal Regan Pallandi who worked at ESB brewshop
in Sydney gave this a go.  I have to admit, I approached that
beer ready for all sorts of foul odours, but the results were
impressive -- the beer was like a well-made extract kit, and 
you couldn't tell (well, I couldn't) that the boil had been 
skipped.  There was even a faint, light hop aroma in there, 
which I suspect would have been boiled off if the kit had been 
done in the conventional manner that requires hop additions
to offset what you've driven off during a long boil.

Now the prime consideration, once you have taken care of the
blindingly obvious and bought a pre-hopped extract, is sanitation,
and we'll assume that the extract itself is sterile, which is
pretty likely with one straight out of a can, perhaps not as
likely if you've got a half-bucket of extract lying around
the cupboard.  We'll also assume that your water is sterile,
which probably is not an issue if you're topping up with
un-boiled tap water anyway.

An added concern is whether a given kit is designed to be used
in this manner.  What Regan chose might well have been an extract
that was formulated to retain some hop aroma in it, judging from
the kit instructions.  Other kits might expect a boil, and thus
have no hop aroma at all in them. 

As for the overall quality of an extract versus a mash brew,
that's a whole 'nother topic.

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA




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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:50:53 -0600
From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Re: Quick RIMS question


>
>Quick RIMS question: anyone out there using the RIMS heater chamber and
>heater element from Moving Brews?  If so, do you run the heater at 120 or
>240 V?  How do you control the heater (other than on/off)?

I use the MB heating chamber with a simple thermostat and run the 22" 
element at 120V.

Keep the temp sensor on the exhaust side and the flow rate reasonable are 
the only suggestions I can make.

<http://hairydogbrewery.com/equip/mashing.shtml>



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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:09:09 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Yeast profile questions, St. Patrick's Day Beer..

Andy Woods <woods_a at ACADMN.MERCER.EDU> writes:

>Recently I made a Oatmeal stout and split the batch with two different
>types of yeast, Wyeast Irish Ale (10840 and a American Ale clone 
>(similiar to 1056).  When I tasted both of these at racking time, 
>both tasted good but I didn't notice any different between the two 
>batches.  I have read the yeast profiles of each, and I am wondering 
>if anyone has failed to notice a difference between these two styles 
>of yeast?

I can't address this directly, but I will note that Ray Daniels wrote 
in article on Irish stout in the last Zymurgy that he prefers 1056 
for that style.  He argues that the style benefits from the clean 
character of 1056.

>Also.. Im looking to make a green beer for St. Patricks Day.  What type of
>styles and what special ingredients are appropriate for this type of brew? 
>Would you just add a large amount of food coloring at knockout during the
>boil?  Any recipes out there (i checked Cats Meow and a few other sites to no
>avail.)

Don't do it!  No one in Ireland drinks green beer.  Here in the US 
it's just green food coloring added to megaswill.  I don't know how 
they do it now with Sankey kegs, but back in my college days we just 
knocked out the wood bung.  I never saw how much color was added.

As an alternative, how about brewing my McGinty's Irish-American red 
ale?  I'll make a separate post.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:14:38 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: alternative St Paddy's brew

It's just a little early, but Andy Wood's request for green beer 
leads me to repost my note from last February.  And starting this 
early there's time to bottle it.  As I noted, I get lots of positive 
feedback - this is a popular beer with brewers and megaswillers alike.

////

Brewers

Let me suggest an alternative to stout or green beer that I suggest 
every few years, Irish-American Red Ale.  Here is my post from 
several years ago.  I've received good feedback from happy brewers. 
Feel free to substitute ingredients or modify procedure, of course.

There's just time to brew it if you keg and force carbonate.  A 
little iffy for bottling but it should work.  A mash note - I have 
done this since my original post with a single step infusion and it 
worked fine.  I used gelatin to clear the beer before kegging.

Don't worry about Cluster if you can't get it.  And Wyeast or White 
Lab's Irish yeast is essentially the same (Guinness) as YeastLab's, 
which is no longer produced.

Let me know how it turns out if you do brew it.

Jeff

  -=-=-=-=-=-
It's about time to think about brewing a beer for a St. Paddy's Day 
party.  How about something different from the usual stout or green 
beer, something with an American touch?

I've made an Irish-American ale that I figure is similar to what was 
served in Irish neighborhood taverns in the Northeast 100 years ago, 
although I have no proof.  Maybe like McSorley's?  It's sort of a red 
ale with corn, flaked barley, medium crystal and a touch of 
chocolate.  It's a little stronger than a British session beer,  a 
little less than typical US beers (due to higher FG), and certainly 
less strong than the authentic ales of a century ago, but they didn't
have to drive home then.  This is popular with Killian's drinkers as 
well as real ale fans as it has enough interest to hold them.  Resist 
the temptation to up the bitterness as it is inappropriate in this 
style.

McGinty's Irish-American Ale
5.25 gallons  at  1.044

5.5 lbs 6-row (US 2-row should work, too)
1.75 lbs flaked maize
0.75 lbs flaked barley
0.5 lbs crystal 30L
2 oz. chocolate

Mash 154F 60 minutes.  Actually, though, I did a 40/60/70C mash (30 
minutes at each step) adding the corn at 60C.  The 40C rest may have 
helped break down beta-glucans in the barley, and passing from 40 to 
60 over 30 minutes or so effectively gave me a protein rest, which 
may have made the beer clearer.  Irish moss might not hurt.

Bittering hops - Cluster (I used 3/4 oz for 19 IBU)
Finishing hops - Golding (Domestic would be fine) (I used 1/2 oz for
15 min. for 4 IBU and another 1/2 oz at knockout) (FWH might be nice
here)
Target 23 IBU

Irish Ale yeast YeastLab A05

OG 1.044
FG 1.015

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:41:13 +0100
From: "Jens Maudal" <jens.maudal at c2i.net>
Subject: Pale Ale Experiment

Sorry about that miscalculation, i know that one oz is roughly 28 gr.
A bit fast there.

I  participated in the experiment myself and my beer had very little
hop aroma, could it be down to the use of a CFC.
After the heat is turned off and the aroma hops added i leave the wort
for 10-15 min for the hops and the hot break to settle down before
the chiller is started. The chilling takes 10-15 min, this means that the
hops
stay in the hot wort for almost half an hour. Could this be the main reason
for the lack of aroma.
When a coil is used for chilling the overall temp in the wort is reduced
very quickly even though it takes a lot longer to bring the wort to ideal
fermentation temp. The coil brings the temp down from almost boiling to
just being very warm, this might be enough to stop the volatile hop oils
from disappearing, just an idea.

>One possibility is that the
>intensity of hop aroma may have been the same in a larger number of beers,
>but other characteristics of the finished product may have hidden the hop
>aroma or interfered with its perception.  The presence of diacetyl, for
>instance, could definitely interfere with your perception of a hop aroma.
A
>particularly thick head or low carbonation might also influence perception.

This i totaly agree with, i was myself in the jugde team and some of the
beers
was very out of balance (considering using the same recipe) but others
incl. my own was not like that and should have had a better aroma.
I can't swear to it but i think my beers had a better hop aroma before i
started
using a CFC.
Maybe this is worth an experiment, or does others using a CFC get plenty
of hop aroma.
It is nothing better than sniffing a pint with a lovely hop aroma, i do get
this
aroma when i use my hop back, but that was not allowed in this experiment.

>Such experiments beautifully illustrate the importance of the brewer and
her
>or his process in making beer.  While a great recipe is an essential
>starting point, that alone does not guarantee your results.

>Ray Daniels [197.8, 264.2] Apparent Rennerian
>Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer
>Director, Brewers Publications

This is very true and it also shows how a small variation in the process can
make
such a big variation in the end result, no wonder the big boys mix their
brews to
minimise taste differences.

Jens P. Maudal jens.maudal at c2i.net
Greetings from "BottomsUp Brewery"
Drammen  -  Norway
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Visit my humble RIMS and homebrew page:
http://home.c2i.net/bottomsup/index.htm

Norbrygg bryggeside: http://www.norbrygg.com
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,



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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:43:34 -0500
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Shaking ...; Rotating sparge arms

Hi, all.

Larry, who must be very lucky indeed, responds to a query
from Stefan Berggren on force carbonation, and makes some
very good points about being patient. However, I must
question  his last paragraph in reference to shaking the
keg at high pressures to carbonate:

> ....
> The down side of these techniques is that the carbonation
> level in your keg of beer is not in a state of equilibrium.
> And this means it will ....
>

Larry, using the method I posted in response to Stefan
yesterday, I will admit that my beer IS NOT in a perfect
state of equilibrium. However, I would argue that my beer
IS VERY NEARLY in that state, and is close enough for our
purpose (at least mine). By shutting off the gas flow to
the regulator, and continuing to rock (not a vigorous action
like shaking) until the regulator pressure doesn't change, I
can then set my regulator to that pressure and it will close
enough to a state of equilibrium as to be practically
indistinguishable from it. I'm just achieving that state in
under 10 minutes instead of 14 days.

- -------------------------------------------------------------
On the subject of Whirlygigs (Def: cute name coined to
describe a certain brand of rotating sparge arm, often used
in a demeaning manner):

Talk about taking words out of context ... No they are not
absolutely necessary, and Dan didn't say anything of the sort.

I have one - used it 4 or 6 or 8 times, quit using it, used it
again, quit using it. It didn't make any difference in my
extraction rate or my beer, so now I just use a piece of 3/8"
vinyl hose draped across the grain bed. I don't concern myself
with channeling, don't care if the top 2 or 3 inches of the
grain bed are disturbed, don't care if there is a half inch or
5 inches of water on top - none of these things seem to make
any difference in my brew. I don't regret buying it - it
certainly performed the task as claimed - but I would advise
neither for nor against buying or using one.

However, if you want to use one, and like using it, then you
shouldn't have to suffer verbal abuse for doing so.

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew




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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:58:41 EST
From: PVanslyke at aol.com
Subject: forcing carbonation

There have been many discussions over the years on forcing carbonation in 
kegging. I have done secondary ferments in the keg and then transfered from 
the secondary to a serving keg under Co2 pressure. This works quite well and 
after transfer the keg is forced by one means or another until the serving 
pressure is met.

Some time ago I read an article about forcing O2 into the cooled wort to 
ensure adequate oxygen for fermentation. It has occured to me (I havn't tried 
this) that a similar setup could be used to carbonate the beer when 
transfering to the serving keg (obviously using Co2 and not O2!).

Has anyone tried this and what were your results?

Paul F. VanSlyke
Deposit, NY
42.066 N, 75.429 W (because I don't need to travel to Jeff's house)


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:10:09 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Oxyclean as a sanitizer?

Dave Darity asked if Oxyclean can be used as a sanitizer:

>The listed ingredients were Sodium Percarbonates and
>Sodium Carbonates. I was thinking these were the same ingredients for
>"one-step" sanitizer. I was wondering if the "oxyclean" would be suitable
to
>use for cleaning and sanitizing my brew equipment. 

Sodium carbonate and sodium percarbonate are adequate cleansers, especially
for loosening up that organic crud (technical term) however, the carbonate
has no sanitizing power and the percarboante is a very weak one at that.
What little sanitizing power percarbonate has comes from the peroxide
component: 2Na2CO2*3H2O2.  At the concentrations you could reasonably afford
(that's the key) to use in your brewery, peroxide is not a good sanitizer,
especially on dirty equipment.  On the other hand, mixing liquid peroxide
from your drug store at 1:2 - 1:3 with vinegar makes a strong and
cost-effective spray sanitizer. 

I'm sure Oxyclean would do a good job at cleaning out your fermenter and
possibly would reduce some of your bacterial load, but I doubt that it would
be effective enough to be considered a sanitizer.  One thing to consider is
that it may also contain surfactants for removing soil which may be very
difficult to remove from your fermenter.  These  residual surfactants could
effect your beer's head for subsequent batches.  It's at least worth some
investigation, however.

I personally am looking into using Star San for all my plastic equipment.
While I love the economy of bleach, I hate rinsing it and it will slowly
degrade various plastic and rubber products.  Iodophor is my favorite choice
because it can be used on stainless and it is cost-effective, however it
will stain porous plastics and rubber.  As for the percarbonates, they must
join the metasilcates in the category of excellent and
environmentally-friendly cleansers.

At least in MY brewery...

Glen A. Pannicke

glen at pannicke.net          http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F  214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts
and those who harbor them." - President G. W. Bush


          




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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:35:08 EST
From: Aleconner at aol.com
Subject: hops in Bud?

In his recent review of a fellow brewer's CAP recipe, Jeff Renner muses:

<<You haven't mentioned hops.  Yes, some hops really are used!......Bud 
amazingly uses a large number of varieties.  Can't imagine why.>>

My understanding of Anheuser-Busch's usage of several different varieties of 
hops in their beers is a built-in protection against annual hop harvest 
inconsistencies.  Should one or more hop varieties suffer from weather or 
disease, it's (their) absence will not greatly affect the all-important 
consistency of the finished beer.

Cheers!
Marty Nachel

PS- A-B supposedly uses 11 different hop varieties.


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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:23:06 -0800
From: Project One <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Re: Oxyclean as a sanitizer?

Dave,

I've been using OxiClean to clean carboys and kegs for the last year.  It 
works great, and (around here, at least) is about 1/6th the price of 
PBW.  Although I've made a few unscientific tests which indicate that it 
does appear to sanitize, I still use Iodophor to sanitize and OxiClean only 
for cleaning.  Give it a try and see what you think.

         ------------>Denny Conn
                         Eugene OR (still haven't figured out where that is 
in Rennerian)

At 12:38 AM 1/24/02 -0500, Dave Darity wrote:
>-----------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:29:50 -0600
>From: "Dave Darity" <dave at jamesbaker.com>
>Subject: Oxyclean as a sanitizer?
>
>Hello all.  I am a new poster so please forgive any novice errors.
>I recently noticed a product called "Oxyclean" intended for stain removal,
>and general cleaner. The listed ingredients were Sodium Percarbonates and
>Sodium Carbonates. I was thinking these were the same ingredients for
>"one-step" sanitizer. I was wondering if the "oxyclean" would be suitable to
>use for cleaning and sanitizing my brew equipment.
>Many Thanks,
>Dave Darity
>Edmond,OK
>1079.5, 291.1] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:37:17 -0500
From: grayling at provide.net
Subject: Brewing Techniques

All of the talk about Brewing Techniques made me wonder
about the facts here. A friend and I talked about this and
came up with some things.

Go to 
 
http://brewingtechniques.com/order_form.html
 
and get C.E.N.'s phone number.
 
Go to
 
http://www.numberfinder.com/
 
Towards the bottom of the page is the reverse look up. You
need to choose the InfoSpace engine.
 
The phone number is registered to Stephen Mallery, not a
third party company as he stated.

CEN has two email addresses, technokween at yahoo.com and
info at consumersedgenetwork.com. However, on the order form
page for BT, c.e.n. at netzero.net is given. Netzero.net is a
free Internet provider. Why are they using a free Internet
provider when they could be using an
" at consumersedgenetwork.com" email account?

CEN and BT's fax number are the same. The area code is from
Northern Arizona, not Oregon where both companies are
located. 

These are just the facts but something sounds strange to me.
Maybe Stephen does have the best of intentions and really
does want to make things right. Make your own decisions and
draw your own conclusions from these pieces of information.

Cheers!

Jim
Westland, MI


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---