---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  RE:  Suckback in Secondary (Bill Tobler)
  MY Web Site (Ken Schwartz)
  RIMS PIDs and SSRs ("Larry Maxwell")
  Re: Salvaging Flat Beer ("Larry Bristol")
  Re: 10 gal soda keg modification help ("Mike Pensinger")
  True Alchemy: Lead ==> Gold? No, Dirt ==> Beer ("Todd M. Snyder")
  Palm databases (carlos benitez)
  Gott cooler/plastic mash tun/lauter tun ("Milone, Gilbert")
  fermentation science (Rudi Wehmschulte)
  dip stick ("Spinelli, Mike")
  homebrew class ("Joseph Marsh")
  RE: The O-word (Brian Lundeen)
  Fermenter QD boiling (David Passaretti)
  RE: Airlocks suck! (Brian Lundeen)
  Kettles and Thermometers ("David Hooper")
  Airlock Sucks (Richard Foote)
  RE: 10 gal soda keg modification help (Ronald La Borde)
  brief...off topic question (darrell.leavitt)
  Re: Harvesting barley ("Todd Tilton")
  Sour Beer (Mark Lazzaretto)
  Beating the Bazooka Screen horse ("Rich Medina")
  Louis Pasteur (Pat Casey)
  RE: The O-word (Brad McMahon)
  Harversting barley (Al Klein)
  Dubbel suggestions (Kevin Elsken)


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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:21:58 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE:  Suckback in Secondary


Bob Shaffer-Neitz asks:

What I don't know is why my secondary is sucking back water out of the
airlock.  Any ideas?


Bob,
    I have always heard of this problem, but have never had it myself.  The
major cause of suck back would be a significant temperature change in the
beer.  So unless you beer is getting warn in the day, and cold at night, I
don't see how this can happen.  I had an air lock that kept going dry on me
once, and finally found a hairline crack where the stem meets the body.  One
drip at a time, and it would empty in 2 or 3 days.  You couldn't even see
it, unless you put it up to your nose and put some pressure on it with your
hands.  Hope this helps.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian





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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:03:10 -0700
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com>
Subject: MY Web Site

Tony Barnsley asked for my website URL...

Quick HULLO to HBD land...!

- --
*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer
Fermentation Chillers and More at The Gadget Store:
http://www.gadgetstore.bigstep.com
E-mail: kenbob at elp.rr.com




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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:34:05 -0500
From: "Larry Maxwell" <larrymax at bellsouth.net>
Subject: RIMS PIDs and SSRs

I recently bought a PID controller with a solid-state relay
(SSR) output from Omega Eng'g, but failed to read the
spec sheet closely enough, which noted that the SSR
handles only 1A max.  I am guessing what I need is
another (external) SSR that handles 20A or so to control
my 1500 W heater element (at 120 V).  Is this correct? 
In other words, do I use the output of the internal SSR to
control the external SSR?  Seems logical, but before I
buy one I wanted to ask those in the know.

Larry
Atlanta




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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:34:21 -0600
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: Salvaging Flat Beer

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:16:16 -0500, "Hedglin, Nils A"
<nils.a.hedglin at intel.com> pondered:

>...<snip>...
>My wife came up with an idea to remedy this that I want to run past you all.  I
>have the 2 liter PET bottle Carbonator cap & a small CO2 canister.  Her idea
>was to open the flat beer, pour it into a small water bottle with the same
>sized cap & use the Carbonator to carbonate it.  This would only be done
>immediately before drinking it.  Would this work, or would oxidation set in
>too fast?  I figured I'd have the bottle in the frig so more CO2 could be
>disolved into solution, but it might also take some shaking too.

Kiss your wife and tell her she is a genius.  This is the perfect
solution to your (current) dilemma.  Those carbonator caps (YABADABADO)
are useful not only for maintaining CO2 equilibrium while transporting
a small quantity of kegged beer, but for doing forced carbonation as
well.  Personally, I would not bother fooling around with the smaller
(single serving) water bottles.  Use a 2 liter bottle and open as many
beer bottles as you need to fill 'er up!

Cool the bottled beer to your desired serving temperature to help the
CO2 dissolve, and yes, it will require shaking to get it carbonated
quickly.  Put on the carbonator cap, apply CO2 pressure, put on some
music, and caress the bottles while you dance a jig or the twist or do
whatever else you can think of to get the beer all shook up.  It will
hopefully be ready to drink by the time you get hot and thirsty.  There
will be no problem from oxidation if the beer is consumed immediately
(or even within a couple of days).

>I've consistantly had a problem with my bottled beer not carbonating.  It
>could be because I leave it in secondary too long & there's not enough
>yeast, or because I don't keep my house warm enough for the yeast to work.
>What ever the case, I now have 4 cases of good tasting, but flat beer.

I am more concerned about THIS dilemma.  Yeast should remain viable
sitting in beer within a secondary fermenter for a long, long time. 
Even though it may look like all of the yeast has settled to the
bottom, there is still enough floating around to carbonate the beer. 
Unless you keep your house around 40F or lower, ale yeast will still do
its job, just slower.  So I doubt any of these things are the problem.

The most likely cause is that there is simply not enough fermentable
sugar in the bottles.  You do not say how you bottle the beer, so I
will assume nothing.  You probably already know all of this (so forgive
me), but since you say the problem is consistent, there may be
something subtle that is getting overlooked.

You need to have some fermentable sugars in the beer when you bottle it
so that the yeast will have something to eat (and make CO2 from).  The
beer in your secondary after fermentation has completed probably has
little (if any) fermentable sugars.  You fix this by priming the beer,
which is simply adding some sugar at bottling time.  It is a good idea
to take a hydrometer reading before bottling so that you know the beer
has in fact actually reached its final gravity.

[I have not bottled in a long time, so if I say something way off base,
I presume someone will gently correct me.]  What I (used to) do is
syphon the beer from my secondary into a holding vessel (such as the
primary fermenter) to remove the trub on the bottom of the fermenter. 
Dissolve about 3/4 cup of corn sweetener in a cup of water, mix it
thoroughly in the beer, then bottle normally.  Try not to splash the
beer around very much during all this because you want to dissolve as
little oxygen as possible.  Put the bottles in a cool, dark place and
let them sit for about 2 weeks.

I have seen some brewing instructions that suggest you put a measured
amount of sugar into each bottle, rather than going through the extra
racking process above.  I do not agree with this technique.  Since it
is nearly impossible to get an accurate measurement of such a small
amount of sugar, and difficult to get the sugar into the bottle without
spilling a bit, this technique tends to make the carbonation levels in
the bottles quite variable.  The better technique produces a consistent
carbonation level in every bottle of the batch.

Also note that there are alternatives to corn sweetener, such as
brewery grade corn syrup, honey, and even malt extract.  Personally,
because the quantities are so small, it is doubtful whether there is
any real difference among them.  [I now expect to hear from those that
disagree.]  OTOH, I do not recommend using ordinary table sugar.  Feel
free to experiment!


Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:49:20 -0500
From: "Mike Pensinger" <Beermkr at bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Re: 10 gal soda keg modification help

I ferment in a 13.2 gallon keg with the top cut out.  The sanitation scheme
I have worked out involves directing the outflow from my imersion chiller
into the keg.  I use about 15 Gallons of water to chill my 10.5 gallon batch
and as soon as I have a gallon or so I put some Iodophor in the fermenter
and let it over flow at the end.  I figure the entire inside gets a good 20
minutes of exposure to hot Iodophor.  Works for me anyway.

Mike Pensinger
beermkr at bellatlantic.net
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~beermkr/
Norfolk Virginia - [551.4, 132.9] Rennerian




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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:04:22 -0500
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject: True Alchemy: Lead ==> Gold? No, Dirt ==> Beer

Regarding typical 2 row spring barley yields per acre:
http://www.uidaho.edu/cereals/nidaho/sb99.htm

This shows an average yield of 88 bu/acre at an average of 69 lb/bu, so
average of 6072 lb/acre of barley.  However, I think this is higher than
what a backyard grower/maltster/brewer might see, though.  I wouldn't expect
more than 1 ton/acre yield, or about 4 lb barley per 100 ft^2.  IOW, to end
up with a 50 lb bag of malt (why would you bother for any smaller amount?)
you'd have to plant about 1200 ft^2, an area 40x30 ft.

This assumes you can grow small areas of barley like this with good results
around the edge of the planting. Anyone that's grown sweet corn, for
instance, knows that the rows around the edges don't do very well compared
to the interior of the field.

That said, someone with that kind of time and energy could cut this area by
hand with a scythe (or weed-wacker?), and thresh by hand,  beating the hell
out of it on a paved surface, I suppose. Please, please, please post an .avi
of this process if anyone attempts it.  I'd love to see someone threshing
barley by hand in their driveway, beer in hand!

Todd Snyder
Williamsville, NY



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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:45:51 -0800 (PST)
From: carlos benitez <greenmonsterbrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: Palm databases

Hello All!

   This is mainly for the gadgetheads out there - I
recently made a database of Wyeast products for my
palm pilot. this includes the Wyeast #, name, Optimum
fermentation temp., apparent attenuation, and a short
description of the product. This is in an MDB format
and requires either MDB (mobile data-base) OR MDB-LITE
to read on the Palm. Any mistakes or misquotes are
mine not Wyeast's. When I get the time, I plan to do
hops and malts as well. Anyone interested in this is
welcome to a copy (free!) just drop me a personal
email and I will zip it to you (I don't have my own
web-site) Alternatively if someone would like to add
it their web site for downloads that is OK too.

=====
BIBIDI !
        Brew It Bottle It Drink It 
       Carlos Benitez - Green Monster Brewing
        Bainbridge, PA,  U.S.A.



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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:09:06 -0500
From: "Milone, Gilbert" <gilbert.milone at uconn.edu>
Subject: Gott cooler/plastic mash tun/lauter tun

I was contemplating making/buying the materials to make a gott style
mashtun. The first question that came to mind
when doing all grain in a plastic masher, how does one deal with the
different mash temperatures? IE if I start mashing at 150 for 30 minutes
then have to mash at 160 for 20 more minutes, how do I raise the temp 10
degrees? Or are Dynamic mash temps not possible without a heating element?
 -Gil Milone
Private replies
gilbertmilone at hotmail.com


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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:13:13 -0600
From: Rudi Wehmschulte <rjwehmschulte at chemdept.chem.ou.edu>
Subject: fermentation science

Fellow brewers:

I was recently asked by the local student organization of the 
American Chemical Society to give a presentation about brewing 
science. Being a homebrewer I plan to focus on beer.
I am looking for some sources that describe the mashing process and 
the fermentation itself in detail, especially the chemistry behind 
it. I am quite familiar with the "hop chemistry" due to a series of 
recent publications.

Thanks

Rudi

- -- 
***********************************************
Rudi Wehmschulte, Dr. rer. nat.		(405) 325-2388 (office)
Dept. of Chemistry and Biochemistry 	(405) 325-2827 (lab)
University of Oklahoma         		(405)-325-6111 (FAX)
620 Parrington Oval, Rm. 208
Norman, OK 73019
e-mail: rjwehmschulte at chemdept.chem.ou.edu

http://cheminfo.chem.ou.edu/faculty/rjw.html
***********************************************


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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:17:58 -0500
From: "Spinelli, Mike" <paa3983 at dscp.dla.mil>
Subject: dip stick

HBDers,

I use a standard piece of copper plumbing pipe (1/2"?) as a depth gauge.  I
squished one end of the pipe flat and filed a "(" shaped bevel on the flat
tun.  I then secured it inside the tun by clipping the top of the pipe to
the lip of the tun using one of those plastic home depot clamps.   I then
filled the tank with 12 gals. of water and attached a SS worm hose clamp to
the pipe at the 12 gal. water line.  Did this again at the 25, 30 and 35
gal. line.

This way, I get a good idea of when I've collected enough during the sparge.

Mike

Cherry Hill NJ


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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:26:56 -0500
From: "Joseph Marsh" <josephmarsh62 at hotmail.com>
Subject: homebrew class

My only advice is to make sure you have only one person talking at a time. 
If you're doing this for the first time you'll have any number of people 
jumping in with what are essentially minor variations of basic technique. 
That only confuses the new people and disrupts the class. What is completely 
acceptable in an informal discussion of brewing by brewers with some 
experience is not going to work for a beginning class. Don't be afraid to 
tell someone to shut up. My budy at the local homebrew shop tells that to me 
all the time.

Joe



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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:35:41 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: The O-word


> >Anyway people, its noooooo opps. 

It doesn't matter who wrote this, I see it from many people and it drives me
nuts. The correct spelling is oops. From the Merriam-Webster Collegiate
Dictionary (on-line):

Main Entry: oops 
Pronunciation: '(w)u(&)ps
Function: interjection
Date: 1933
- -- used typically to express mild apology, surprise, or dismay 

The spelling opps would yield a pronunciation of "awps" which of course,
nobody would ever utter out loud. Unless of course, you're a Cockney and are
referring to what a bunny does, or the deep-fried pizza with extra Tabasco
wasn't sitting too well.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this, and probably rightly so. But it's
been eating away at me for some time and I felt compelled to speak out. 

Cross-posted to the HBD because I see it there, too. If I'm going to get
flamed, I might as well get it all over with at once.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Being extremely silly at [314,829] aka Winnipeg

PS For those of you down under, those are my Rennerian coordinates. Strikes
me that you should all be reckoning yourselves by Sandersian coordinates. I
would suggest the Europeans use Pivonian coordinates, but for his personal
safety, he never seems to stay in one place for any length of time.

Insert emoticons liberally as you feel necessary.


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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:30:27 -0800 (PST)
From: David Passaretti <dpassaretti at yahoo.com>
Subject: Fermenter QD boiling

I have never tried removing the rubber bottom from a
soda keg so I cannot help you there.  As far as
boiling in the fermenter goes, I have done this many
times and have never had any adverse affetcs on the
mechanism itself. As far as how well it sanitizes I
can only say that I have done this on 15-20 batches
and have noticed no off-flvaors attributable to beer
spoiling organsims.  I have had beer around in kegs
for as long as a year without problem.
I used to leave the top of the fermenter open and QDs
on both posts thinking that escaping steam would
sanitize the fittings. It seemed to work but then I
thought I could close it and the increased pressure
would be a superior sanitizer. I have done this with a
psi of 20-30 perhaps 5-8 times and it seems to work
flawlessly. I would think that the closed environmeny
wouldsanitize everything which came in contact with
the high temp/pressure environment. This would include
the entire poppet valve mechansim.



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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:50:15 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Airlocks suck!

Bob Schaffer-Neitz writes:

> What I don't know is why my secondary is sucking back water 
> out of the airlock.  Any ideas?

This generally happens to me because of temperature fluctuations in my
cellar. When the temperature drops, what's inside gets smaller, and
something has to fill that space. That something is outside air being pulled
back in.

The solution is simple. Use vodka (then you don't care it it gets sucked
back in) or use less liquid. It is possible to put in enough liquid to
maintain the seal but not enough to get sucked back. The incoming air will
just bubble through. To determine that level, fill the airlock, then blow
gently from the top to blow out any excess. Personally, I prefer the
twin-bubble to the 3-piece airlocks. I find they maintain their liquid
better over time, which is important to me as a winemaker, where stuff can
stay in carboy for months or years.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg



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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:06:10 -0800
From: "David Hooper" <DHooper at kc.rr.com>
Subject: Kettles and Thermometers

I recently purchased a new brew pot which has a fitting for a thermometer.
I started asking around if other brewers use a thermometer when boiling the
wort.  I have gotten three different opinions:
  1.. Never--no need
  2.. Always--helps consistency
  3.. Use it for mashing, then remove it for boiling the wort.
I would be interested in how others use the thermometer in their brew pots,
and especially if they use it while boiling wort.  I have looked around, but
have not found the exact information I need.

Thanks

David Hooper
DHooper at kc.rr.com
http://pages.prodigy.net/david_hooper



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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:45:05 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Airlock Sucks

R. Schaffer-Neitz writes about the woes of a sucking airlock or suckback in
secondary.  Ya gotta hate when that happens.

I've had suckback occur when a newly pitched batch may cool (especially
lagers in the fridge) while fermentation is getting under way, such that
negative pressure wins over positive.  It's the ole canning jar thang that
causes the lid to seal--negative pressure or vacuum.  This wouldn't seem to
be the case here with a secondary fermentation, unless perhaps you had a
sudden temperature decrease that would slow CO2 evolution (reduce positive
pressure) and create a negative pressure.

I've also had fexible-sided fermenters (plastic) suck water from the
airlock if I pick them up to move them.  The weight of the wort causes the
container to flex and suck the airlock water.  Gotta hate when that
happens.  Alcohol or sanitizer in the airlock can help if it does suck.
Better yet is forethought and prevention.  Remove the airlock, then move it.

Perhaps neither of the above is a possible culprit.  How 'bout a new tack?
Could there be a hole in the airlock?  A hole or crack might allow water to
drain either down into or onto the outside of the fermenter.  Check this
out, take two aspirin and call us in the morning.

Hope this helps.


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA



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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:53:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald La Borde <pivoron at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: 10 gal soda keg modification help

>From: "TED MAJOR" <tidmarsh at charter.net>
>
>Recent posts here describing the sanitizing of a
>Sankey 
>keg with soda keg fittings by boiling gave me the
>obvious 
>idea of boiling my fermenter to sanitize.

I would not do this.  I had been cleaning out my kegs
with very hot water, not steaming, but very hot.  The
darn poppets partially melted.  I think I remember the
yellow rubber, or whatever the yellow seal was made of
had softened and deformed.

Since then I have not used excessively hot water to
clean.  I would think boiling with pressure would also
present the opportunity for melting the poppets, not
to mention the saftey issues.

I once asked and never heard back, so I will ask
again.

HOW DOES COKE CLEAN THEIR KEGS? anyone know?

Ron
Ronald J. La Borde
www.hbd.org/rlabor
pivoron at yahoo.com







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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:41:14 -0500 (EST)
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: brief...off topic question

Date sent:  13-FEB-2002 16:39:08 

I apologogize, but have a cider question.  Please answer off of the list.  
If you had 5 gallons of cider which tasted like apple cider vinegar,...
would you toss it...or attempt to save?

 ..Darrell

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/
_/Darrell Leavitt                              _/
_/INternet: leavitdg at splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu _/
_/Internet (receives attachments):             _/
_/          dleavitt at sln.esc.edu               _/
_/AMpr.net: n2ixl at k2cc.ampr.org              _/
_/AX25 : n2ixl  at  kd2aj.#nny.ny.usa             _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/


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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:17:24 -0500
From: "Todd Tilton" <tilton at erols.com>
Subject: Re: Harvesting barley

>
> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:51:34 +0100
> From: "Groenigen,  J.W. van " <J.W.vanGroenigen at Alterra.wag-ur.nl>
> Subject: Harvesting barley
>
> Todd Snyder writes:
>
> >Anyone actually interested in converting dirt to beer is eventually going
> to
> >want a harvestor for reaping in (literally) all that homegrown barley.
>
> Well, I won't deny that that is the royal way of doing it, but it might be
a
> bit much for people who are just fooling around in their back yard. After
> all, you only need a couple of square meters of barley for a batch of
beer,
> so people might start small.

I thought you would need a lot more land than that.  That's about 22.22
square feet, less than 5 feet by 5 feet or 4 feet by 6 feet.  How much
Barley
would grow on two square meters?  I was thinking that you would need 10
pounds for 5 gallons of beer.

Todd Tilton
Springfield, Va



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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:28:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Lazzaretto <lazyz28 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Sour Beer

When I usually brew my Irish Stout, I add 3 bottles of
soured Guinness to the 10 gallon batch during the
boil.  I sour the some of my last batch by crushing
some pale malt, adding it to the beer in a container,
and then leaving it to sour for a week or two in a
warm place.  

I forgot to sour the beer last week, and I am brewing
on Friday.  I figure I can achieve the same effect by
souring it later on, boiling it for about 10 minutes
and then adding it when I keg the batch.  Anyone see a
problem with this?  Will I achieve the same taste?  I
have had great results with my usual procedure.

Mark Lazzaretto
Burbank, CA



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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:25:56 -0500
From: "Rich Medina" <gothambrewer at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Beating the Bazooka Screen horse

Prior to this debate, I purchased a Bazooka screen based on some 
second hand info and the obvious fact that there is far more surface 
area in the Zymico product than what was already in my hands, 
namely the EZ Masher.

Well, I plan to brew 2 ten gallon batches over the long weekend using 
all pellet hops and the Bazooka screen.  While I can not center the 
screen to my keg without further modification, I don't believe placing 
it slightly off-center will be detrimental to its performance.

For those of you who feather the valve leading from the bazooka 
screen, what is it that you wait for or look for before going wide open 
(I normally don't wait - go figya)?


Rich Medina
Gothambrewery, NYC
gothambrewer at bigfoot.com

You can observe alot just by watching
 - Yogi Berra




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Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:22:23 +1100
From: Pat Casey <patcasey at iprimus.com.au>
Subject: Louis Pasteur

This is a summary from a weekly science show, Ockham's Razor, on Radio
National (Aus)

Dr. Alan Baxter from the Centenary Institute in Sydney tells the
               story about "the beer of revenge". As a result of the
               Franco-Prussian war Louis Pasteur, whose name is usually
               associated with milk, was left with an obsessive hatred
for
               Germans. At the time Germany's main export was beer.
               Pasteur vowed to destroy Germany's primary export market
by
               developing the world's best beer in France. He dubbed
this
               "the beer of revenge".

for a full transcript of the broadcast which includes an explanation of
why the local mega-swill is full of sugar:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s478177.htm


Pat



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Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:55:30 +1030
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: RE: The O-word

At 03:05 AM 2/14/02, silly Brian wrote:

>The spelling opps would yield a pronunciation of "awps"
>  which of course,
>nobody would ever utter out loud. Unless of course,
>  you're a Cockney and are
>referring to what a bunny does, or the deep-fried
>  pizza with extra Tabasco
>wasn't sitting too well.

Naaah, you got i' wrong Brian.
Opps is wot goes inna beer to make it bitt'er.
Me ol' man yoosta ga down ta Kent ev'ry summer
an' pick'em.

Cheers guv!

(boy, it's hard to type Cockney!! :-) )



Brad McMahon
Aldgate, Sth. Australia
[16261km,268.1] Rennerian (too far away)
[1918km, 202.8] Sandersian (not far enough) :^P


   



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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:47:18 -0500
From: Al Klein <rukbat at optonline.net>
Subject: Harversting barley

J.W.vanGroenigen writes:

>Or is there an easier way of hand threshing? Anyway, I wouldn't bother with
>harvesting by machine if you have less than 100 square meters of barley.

Have an ox or a boar walk on it, then toss it up into the air with a
basket.  (It's a multi-thousand year old method.) :)
- ---
[Apparent Rennerian 567.7, 95.9] 
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net


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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:21:04 -0500
From: Kevin Elsken <k.elsken at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Dubbel suggestions

I recently tried a Bornem Dubbel and found it quite enjoyable.
Unfortunately, I have not been able to find any clone rcipes on line.
If anyone has a good recipe, suggestions on ingredients, or could
recommend a book with a good I would appreciate.

Private e-mail is OK.

TIA,

Kevin Elsken
Little Boy Brewery
North Strabane, PA
[Over that way, a few hundred miles, quasi-Rennerian]



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