---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  Cheap kegerators (doug)
  Re: Kettles and Thermometers ("Layne T. Rossi")
  Castlemark honey (ensmingr)
  Beer from dirt ("Groenigen,  J.W. van ")
  re: Kleinian Descriptions ("Steve Alexander")
  Dry Yeast Experiment ("Phil Yates")
  RE : RIMS PIDs and SSRs (John_Fraser/User/NWExternal)
  Cinti Bockfest (E.J.)" <eahrendt at visteon.com>
  backyard barley growing (Randy Ricchi)
  Ask the pros! (Patrick Brochu)
  Water Chemistry ("Frank J. Russo")
  RE: 10 gal soda keg modification help (HOW DOES COKE CLEAN THEIR KEGS?) ("Walter H. Lewis III")
  Fermentation vessel changes ("Michael T. Bell")
  RE: Gott cooler/plastic mash tun/lauter tun ("Steven Parfitt")
  Re: Airlocks Suck ("Pete Calinski")
  RE: 10 gal soda keg modification help (Jeff Renner)
  re: True Alchemy: Lead ==> Gold? No, Dirt ==> Beer ("Steve Alexander")
  Dip Stick ("Jerry Sadowski")
  SSRs an PIDs ("the freeman's")
  souring beer (Marc Sedam)
  "Apparent Rennerian"??*** (Steve C Cobble)
  cider problems/barley seed (RiedelD)
  Thoughts on the mixin' of yeasts (Darrell.Leavitt)
  After "oops", another one ... (mohrstrom)
  Re: Gott cooler/plastic mash tun/lauter tun (Steven S)
  San Diego Competition and Kettle Screen (Randy Barnes)
  Salvaging Flat Beer (Al Klein)
  RIMS PIDs and SSRs (Al Klein)
  Kettles and Thermometers (Al Klein)


*
* Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! 
* http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:40:30 -0500 (EST)
From: doug at Homebrew.con.com
Subject: Cheap kegerators

So I'm kegging 15gal batches in golden gate kegs these days.  I've got a
fridge that I use for corny keg storage, but it doesn't fit the half
barrels.  I don't have room for a normal sized fridge, and I don't want to
shell out the bucks for a commercial kegerator.

I figure someone out there must have some simple product, akin to an
insulating shell that slips over the keg with a chilling piece on top.
Anyone have a good solution for chilling a half barrel?

Doug




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:22:42 -0800
From: "Layne T. Rossi" <wetpetz at oberon.ark.com>
Subject: Re: Kettles and Thermometers

David Hooper asks, "I would be interested in how others use the thermometer
in their brew pots,
and especially if they use it while boiling wort.  I have looked around, but
have not found the exact information I need."

I am using a HERMS System with a 16 Gallon Kettle. I didn't install a
thermometer in my kettle when I built it because I found a floating dairy
thermometer to be just as good. I sometimes check to see if I'm close to
boiling in the beginning and then I toss it in with the chiller at the end
of the boil to check the temperature of the surface of the wort
occasionally. I didn't need to spend a bunch of money on a Stainless dial
thermometer to tell me that.

On a similar note have been building a webpage on how I built and use my
HERMS system. It's under construction but here is a link anyway.
Http://oberon.ark.com/~wetpetz/ferment.html

Layne Rossi
Campbell River, BC




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 02:42:41 -0500
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: Castlemark honey

Anybody know what happened to Castlemark Honey, of Shepardstown,
WV? I'm a satisfied customer of Martin's Honey Farm (
http://www.zlink.net/~martinhf/ ), but have heard about
Castlemark.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:00:48 +0100
From: "Groenigen, J.W. van " <J.W.vanGroenigen at Alterra.wag-ur.nl>
Subject: Beer from dirt

Todd Tilton writes:

>I thought you would need a lot more land than that.  That's about 22.22
>square feet, less than 5 feet by 5 feet or 4 feet by 6 feet.  How much
>Barley would grow on two square meters?  I was thinking that you would need
10
>pounds for 5 gallons of beer.

Well, I think it is difficult to write in generalities, because we are all
living in different climates, and two row vs. six row also make a big
difference. So, I'll just give a ballpark figure - I might be off up to 50 %
in both directions - I don't care:

Let's say you have a dry grain yield of 5 metric tons per hectare, that's
5000 kg / 10000 sq. m., so that is about 0.5 kg per square meter, and that's
about 1 U.S. pound per square meter. In other words, for 10 pounds you would
need about 10 sq. meters, which is about 100 sq. foot. An area of 100 sq.
meters, which I mentioned in my posting, would be more in the area of 1000
sq. foot, and would therefore in theory provide you with around 100 pounds
of grain, which is substantial. 

But, as other people remarked, you probably have boundary effects and it is
unlikely that you will get the high yields that farmers would get. For
starters, I wouldn't like to use any pesticides. And again, these are only
ballpark figures, I'm not looking for a big discussion on this. 

Take care,

Jan Willem.





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 03:16:33 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Kleinian Descriptions

I commented on the state of descriptions of brewing *ingredients* a bit ago
writing that developing an extended language, similar to some of wine
description terms is a sorely needed thing.  Joel Plutchak wrote ... re Bob
Klein ...

>  people dump on him not for using "fanciful"
>language or winespeak, but for the descriptions themselves.

An honest opinion, but I disagree.  The comments against Mr.Klein encompass
both bad descriptions but primarily his use of terms in describing beer.
For example PatB writes ...

>Get this: "The accompanying honey-sweet undertow
[...]
>Look, dear! The tide of my beer is in!

Terms similar to "undertow" are successfully used in describing wines.
Wouldn't you expect an "undertow" to describe a powerful flavor not
initially evident ?  I admit it sounds a bit froo-froo when describing beer,
but just how do you describe this sort of thing ?  You either spell it all
out in painful detail or use such an analogy as shorthand.   We don't have
an agreed upon shorthand set of terms like winetasters, but we never will
unless someone tries and then the terms pick up use and a evolve to a
consensus meaning.

>Ales described as both sweet and dry in the same sentence...
OK - that's an example of an unintelligible description, tho' I'd like to
hear the actual example.  You can certainly have tongue drying tannins in a
sweet beer or sweet spices in a dry (no-caramel or sugar) well attenuated
ale.

 But .
>"The flavors become more integrated at the end."
and
>moderated flavors rising and falling...
describe real sensible flavor phenomena.  Partial descriptions of these can
be found in sensory and organoleptic eval sections of M&BS, and various
papers on flavor.  Failure to see that flavors change from the initial taste
thru to the aftertaste is a defect in the taster not the description.

Pat sez ...
>No, in retrospect, Steve, the BJCP and other beer judges should
>avoid such "fanciful descriptive language" like the plague.

This comments should be directed at someone who suggested that judges
describe beer this way - not me.  My post was about beer INGREDIENT
descriptions.  I disagree with throwing out the idea of better - much better
descriptions of aroma and flavor sensory impressions.  Whether Mr.Klein does
it well or incompetently isn't the issue - never was.

Example ...
A friend asked me at club meeting last evening about the flavor of Carafa
malt.  Here is Weyermann's description of the result of using this malt
"deeper aroma of dark beers as well as beer color", use is for "Dark Beer,
Salvator Bockbier , Stout , Porter, Alt Beer, Bockbier, Schwarzbier".
Totally useless - you might as well read the Lovibond and guess.  It's dark,
adds aroma (which malts don't?) and can be used in anything from stout to
bock - really doesn't describe flavor/aroma.  Now here is Al Kozonas'
description from "Homebrewing Volume I", [Carafa II] "dark bread crust
aroma; a hint of smokiness; very smooth flavor with a restrained sharpness
and some unsweetened chocolate flavor".    Now Al has put together a great
and useful description.  Yes, Al runs toward allegory in comparing hops to
pastries and leather and red wine.- but that's all to the good.  I think I
can accept the seeming contradiction of smooth flavors (malty front flavors)
with the restrained sharpness (limited acidic sharpness as found in black
malt).

Written descriptions of beer ingredient flavors and aromas are usually
pretty bad.  Only AlK's book and a few other rare sources take a serious
stab at competent descriptions.  Descriptions like "saaz - spicy" or "munich
malt - malty" or "XYZ123 yeast - estery" are the normal level of Neanderthal
grunts and groans found on hops, malt, yeast, manufacturer/vendor
documents..

We should do better.

- --

Al's book is primarily about partial mash brewing, but includes a lot of
interesting materials like these detailed descriptions of hops, malts and
yeasts flavors.   See http://www.brewinfo.com  no affiliation, but I think
it's a useful book for non-partial mashers too.

 -S








Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:47:16 +1100
From: "Phil Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Dry Yeast Experiment

Before I talk about the subject, I have to mention (because Brian Lundeen
brought up the matter) that those of us "Down Under" do not use Sanderian
coordinates to describe our geographical position.

Mr Sander's ravings seemed to come to an abrupt halt quite some time ago (a
relief for many and not before time!!). His sudden silence is largely
attributed to the strong rumour that a salty finally did us all a great
favour and bit the b**tard's head off. God rest his soul and may the salty
survive what must have been a shocking case of indigestion!

The real centre of Australian homebrewing is in the Southern Highlands of
NSW, not because I happen to reside here but because Wes Smith does, just
around the corner from me.

It was Wes who suggested I might like to dabble with the dry yeasts he has
recently been using. They come from the French company DCL in the form of
Saflager and Safale.

Two days ago I pitched a Safale SO-4 ale yeast into an English style ale
wort and the results have been extraordinary. High kraeusen occurred (and
what a high kraeusen it was!) in under twenty four hours and in two days the
entire fermentation is all but over. It behaved as though it was fermenting
at 30C. But it has in fact been running at 22C. Wes warned me that from his
experience, this yeast liked to produce quite a bit of diacetyl. I took a
sample tonight which measured SG 1012, two days after fermentation began at
SG 1050. The sample is dominated by diacetyl.

I'm not a scientific brewer, as many of you would know. Long have I
championed the argument for "practical brewing". But I am fascinated to
learn what is going on here. For all the years I have used nothing but
liquid yeast cultures, I suspect a revolution in dry yeast production has
been going on. Hell!! Rob Moline has been telling us this for a long time.

As for the high diacetyl, my bet is that it will all be gone over the next
few days. The other thing I notice is that this SO-4 yeast is compacting
itself solidly at the bottom of the fermenter. It should be a very clear
beer when I keg it in a week or two.

Steve Alexander once suggested that my approach to brewing was about 200
years behind the times, and that I should be wearing leather shorts with
straps. Maybe he is right. But how did he guess how I like to dress up on
Friday nights? To the best of my knowledge, the only non Australian HBD folk
to visit Burradoo are Ray Kruse and Doc Pivo, oh and Jeff Renner who made it
to the train station.

Come to think of it, most of them (with the exception of Jeff) seem to have
disappeared from the HBD. Maybe they were all out in the swamp with Graham
Sanders on the fateful night the salty silenced him?

Cheers
Phil





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 06:55:20 -0500
From: John_Fraser/User/NWExternal at Nationwide.com
Subject: RE : RIMS PIDs and SSRs

Larry wrote :

>I recently bought a PID controller with a solid-state relay
> snip snip....
>control the external SSR?  Seems logical, but before I
>buy one I wanted to ask those in the know

I use a computer to control my SSR's
(http://members.tripod.com/rims-brewing/), the relay controller I use had a
1A relay and I could have controlled another SSR relay with it, though I
chose to have the manufacturer customize it and just have a 500mA
Darlington Ground setup to control my SSR's.

I use 40A SSR's which can handle 80-300V, as I use 240V to power my RIMS.

John M. Fraser




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 07:56:52 -0500
From: "Ahrendt, Eric (E.J.)" <eahrendt at visteon.com>
Subject: Cinti Bockfest

Does anyone know the fate of the Cincinnati Bockfest?  The only reference I
can find is the Bloatarians upcoming Bock competetion.  Thanks.

P.S. Anybody going to the Real Ale festival in Chicago in a couple weeks?

Eric Ahrendt
Lighting Manufacturing Feasibility
Visteon Corporation
Sandusky Plant



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:06:57 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: backyard barley growing

Tom Snyder talks about home growing barley:

SNIP>This shows an average yield of 88 bu/acre at an average of 69
lb/bu, so
average of 6072 lb/acre of barley.  However, I think this is higher than

what a backyard grower/maltster/brewer might see, though.  I wouldn't
expect
more than 1 ton/acre yield, or about 4 lb barley per 100 ft^2.  IOW, to
up with a 50 lb bag of malt (why would you bother for any smaller
amount?)
you'd have to plant about 1200 ft^2, an area 40x30 ft.<

I have to question his assumption that backyard growing would give
smaller yields. I've been gardening for over 25 years, and I know that
backyard gardeners can get far better yields than farmers by using
intensive bed growing techniques. Yes, even with crops like corn.
With rich soil, you can plant corn as close as 12-15" apart with a
similar distance between rows. This close planting insures good
cross-pollination, even at the edges of the beds. By contrast, farms
plant corn in rows something like 3 feet apart, and plants are
(guessing) 18" apart.
The key, of course, is good soil, and attention to watering.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:26:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Patrick Brochu <pcbroch at pixelmediastudio.com>
Subject: Ask the pros!

Hi all:

Well I jumped back in the hobby (or should I say science) of beermaking
after being away for a while.  I don't do anything fancy like most of you
guys describe here, i'm mostly brewing from malt extract for now, but do
plan to move forward to something more complex.  So here are my 2
questions of the day for all you experts out there!

1-What are my options aside from bottling?  I'd be interested in small
kegs (~5 liters), but how is the beer carbonated in these?  Last thing I
want is to have to drink 5 liters of beer on a saturday to avoid the beer
going flat!

2-Would anyone have a good recipe for beginners, combining malt extract
with other easy to find ingredients?  Malt extract is not too bad but
there are only so many brands available at the brew store.

3-(Did I say 2 questions?)  Any known good place where I can order
supplies for homebrew in Canada (or get them myself in Ottawa, Ontario)?

Thanks!




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:31:22 -0500
From: "Frank J. Russo" <fjrusso at coastalnet.com>
Subject: Water Chemistry


I recently had my water tested for the seven primary ions Beer makers
concern themselves with.  I put these numbers into my water adjustment table
and began trying to make additions to adjust the ion conc. upward, depending
on the style I will brew.  What I found out was if I use the salts normally
available at my homebrew store to do the adjustments I have to settle for
either undershooting or overshooting the target levels significantly.
Having a background in Chemistry I determined I could best reach the range
of conc. using different salt.  I went to my local pharmacies and had no
luck in being able to procure these items: Potassium Carbonate, Magnesium
Carbonate, Potassium Sulfate.  I selected these because they allowed me to
increase sulfate or magnesium without increasing the other.  I could
increase carbonate levels with out increasing the calcium level.

Anyone know where I might be able to procure these items?  Got the name of a
good chem. supply house?


Frank Russo
ATF Home Brew Club
New Bern NC
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for the good men to do
nothing."



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:32:47 -0500
From: "Walter H. Lewis III" <wlewis at alliedlogistics.com>
Subject: RE: 10 gal soda keg modification help (HOW DOES COKE CLEAN THEIR KEGS?)

Several years ago I began recycling soda kegs for a lemonade business I
had. During that time I began doing business with a tank recycling
company in TN. They bought used/damaged kegs/tanks from soda cmpanies,
reconditioned them and sold them cheep!

In working with them over several years, they gave me THEIR secret.

Pour 1/2 C Cascade Dishwasher detergent into Keg

Fill with HOT Water

Seal Lid

Shake to insure that the Cascade is desolved

Open Popets to expose them to the solution

Let sit till cool

Rinse WELL

They told me it EVEN removes rootbeer flavor from the gaskets!!

I tried it, it works!

Some people may be concerned with bleach in the Cascade. In discussion
with CASCADE, I was told that in all but ONE -- I forget which one --
the "bleaching" agent is oxygen. Stick with regular cascade and you
should have no chlorine exposure.

Walt



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:09:07 -0600
From: "Michael T. Bell" <miketb at okplus.com>
Subject: Fermentation vessel changes

I have recently made some modifications to my fermentation vessel ( a
15,5 gal. sanke ) and wanted to get the collectives thoughts.  I never
liked the idea of not being able to see into the keg to observe how
clean it was, so I cut out a 12 inch hole in the top.  I plan on using
regular racking tubing formed into a circle to put around the outside
of the opening to act as a seal with a SS lid and a weight on it.
I've cut a small hole in the lid for an airlock.  I can now get into
the thing and scrub away after fermentation.

The next modification is what concerns me.  I installed a SS bulkhead
fitting near the bottom with a SS ball valve on the outside. On the
inside, I have installed a brass (de-leaded) compression coupling with
a copper dip tube that goes to within 1/8 of an inch of the bottom.  I
plan on draining off the cold break from the valve before adding the
yeast and also harvesting the yeast for use on my next batch.  With
this setup, I can do primary, secondary, and bottleing/kegging from
the same vessel.

Will the brass and/or copper on the insider of the keg affect the
fermentation at all?  Any other thoughts/concerns?

Thanks,
Mike Bell
Norman, OK.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:19:48 -0500
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Gott cooler/plastic mash tun/lauter tun

Gil Milone ponders:

>I was contemplating making/buying the materials to make a gott style
>mashtun. The first question that came to mind when doing all grain in
>a plastic masher, how does one deal with the different mash >temperatures? 
>IE if I start mashing at 150 for 30 minutes then have to >mash at 160 for 
>20 more minutes, how do I raise the temp 10 degrees? >Or are Dynamic mash 
>temps not possible without a heating element?
 -Gil Milone

Two ways to increase mash temp, (1) Infusion, add more boiling water, and 
(2) Decoction, remove part of the mash, boil and add back.

I have done both with my GOTT.

First recomendation is use a 10 gallon Gott instead of the 5 gallon.

I only use my GOTT for 5 gallon batches, but am challanged when making a 
beer with an OG greater than 1.064 or so due to the limitation in space for 
grain and water. I prefer to do a "No Sparge" mash where I add all the water 
at mash out and let it drain. I can't do this in a 5 gallon cooler. It takes 
two or three passes to get enough run-off to boil when I use the 5 gallon 
unit.

Typically, I will add my first infusion to get to my rest point, say 153F. I 
try to undershoot slightly, and add boiling water to adjust to get to my 
target, then let it set for an hour and a half.  My cooler typically will 
drop 3-4F during this time. I then add boiling water to get to mash out at 
168, let it set for ten minutes to settle the bed and sparge. I prefer doing 
a two step sparge where I let the tun drain till the grain is just visible, 
then add enough 170F water to meet my runoff requirements, stir the top of 
the grain bed and start the second runnings.

Someone asked recently (yesterday?) about hot water in a GOTT. I figure they 
were made as food grade devices for hot (Coffee) and Cold beverages, so I 
don't worry about it.

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN 5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:56:45 -0500
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Airlocks Suck

Waaaiiit a minute.  Opps or oops or however they say it in Canada (where
they measure temperature in degrees Canadian (C)) And pronounce the "t" in
fillet.

(Just kidding, Brian, I love Canada, I watch the news on CTV every night.)

Back to airlocks and waaiit a minute.  If airlocks pass air from "in" to
"out" why don't they pass it from "out" to "in"?  They are not "diodes",
they should be bi-directional.  I just tried one of mine.  One with six
"globes". I had to suck pretty hard on the "in the fermenter" end to get any
water to come through.  Even then, enough stayed in the bottom of the "U" to
provide act as a lock.  In order to get "suck back" there has to be a mighty
suck.

Can it be something else?

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:01:35 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: RE: 10 gal soda keg modification help

Ronald La Borde <pivoron at yahoo.com> writes from an undisclosed 
location (but I'll bet that's because he's still recovering from 
Mardi Gras) about boiling Corney kegs:

>I would not do this.  I had been cleaning out my kegs
>with very hot water, not steaming, but very hot.  The
>darn poppets partially melted.  I think I remember the
>yellow rubber, or whatever the yellow seal was made of
>had softened and deformed.

This does not jibe* with my experience.  I remove the gas in and beer 
out fittings and boil them as SOP with no problems.  I've even 
autoclaved them (using a pressure cooker).  I don't remember any 
yellow parts.

Those fittings can harbor spoilage microbes and are hard to clean 
with sanitizing solutions.

Jeff

*Since Brian was getting his pet peeve off his chest, I figure I 
might as well mention that it bugs me when people who should know 
better, like National Public Radio reporters, say or write "jive." 
I've seen it here, too, but I cut non-professionals more slack.
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:21:22 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: True Alchemy: Lead ==> Gold? No, Dirt ==> Beer

Todd M. Snyder" writes ....

>This shows an average yield of 88 bu/acre at an average of 69 lb/bu, so
>average of 6072 lb/acre of barley.

Based on what I see at  http://www.ambainc.org/pub/prod/prod.htm and some of
the Canadian Ag sites I think 4000lbs/acre is closer to typical for
commercial production.

> I wouldn't expect
>more than 1 ton/acre yield [amateur] ...
It would be a difficult to achieve in the backyard, since I don't plan to
use herbicides to clear weeds.  I haven't grown more than a handful of grain
in the past, but I currently have a couple thousand sf of rye (grain not
lawn grass) as a cover crop and it's dense enough to keep weeds away.
Hopefully barley is similar.

> IOW, to end
>up with a 50 lb bag of malt (why would you bother for any smaller amount?)
>you'd have to plant about 1200 ft^2 [...]
Right - and then throw in malting losses and probably a lower yield than
estimated and sowing inefficiency and maybe you're down to 30lbs of malt
from 1000sf.  The interesting thing is that you'll need to plant 2.5 lbs of
barley seed to get that 30lbs of malt based on various seeding calculations.
Not a very high multiplication factor.

>That said, someone with that kind of time and energy
> could cut this area by
>hand with a scythe (or weed-wacker?),
Time and energy rank cheap to the obsessed ...
Weed-whacker - excellent idea for a cereal reaping - thanks.

 >Please, please, please post an .avi
>of this process if anyone attempts it.  I'd love to see someone threshing
>barley by hand in their driveway, beer in hand!

I'll try to accommodate but my driveway consists of 39 tons of pavers
(another triumph of sweat over common sense) so the threshing is more likely
to take place on the garage or basement floor (anticipating a crop worth
harvesting).

 -S





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:14:11 -0600
From: "Jerry Sadowski" <jsadow1 at msn.com>
Subject: Dip Stick

I've used a food-grade plastic long-handled spoon that every homebrew shop 
seems to sell.  Just make notches on the handle at measured intervals.  Used 
an indelible marker to hi-lite the numbers.  Mine is long enough to measure 
up to thirteen gallons in a converted keg.  Doubles as a - you guessed it - 
spoon!

Jerry Sadowski
Crete, IL
about four hours West of Jeff



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:43:28 -0600
From: "the freeman's" <potsus at bellsouth.net>
Subject: SSRs an PIDs

The output of the PID is probably 3-12 volts DC.  This is used to
control a larger Solid State Relay that can handle the amps you need for
the heating element.

If the output from the PID is DC, it is polarity sensitive and the + and
 - leads must be connected to proper terminals on the relay.  If output
is AC, it doesnt matter.

For example, I use 2- SSR240DC25 relays on "the perfesser" to control
the 2- 240 volt 4500 watt water heater elements in the HLTL.  This
translates to a SSR that can handle 240 volts at a maximum of 25 amps
controlled by DC voltage from the PID.

If you are running high amps, then you might consider a heat sink for
the relays.

http://www.brewrats.org/hwb/er/images/er04.jpg

The book that came with the PID should tell you what the control output
voltage is and whether it is AC or DC.  If you are still unsure, call
Omega and ask them.

Omega Engineering
800-622-2378
Customer Service - Cathy at Ext 2291
Technical- Vince Leonardi at Ext 2319

Vince is - or was - a sometimes homebrewer.

Bill Freeman aka Elder Rat
Birmingham, AL



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:21:46 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: souring beer

Ahhh...intentionally soured beer.  I was planning to do this
next week as well.  I have a good clone of Flying Fish's
Belgian Farmhouse Ale.  Quite tasty.

I do exactly what Mark does (is it in the name?) for his dry
Irish stout.  Except I usually pressure can the resultant
wort to ensure all those buggers are killed.  If I were
boiling on the stove, I'd bump it up to 20 minutes but
otherwise it sounds OK.  The sourness isn't going to go away
from boiling.  It would be concentrated, if anything.

Good luck.

- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC
alechemist at unc.edu



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:02:40 -0500
From: Steve C Cobble <stevecobble at juno.com>
Subject: "Apparent Rennerian"??***


Somebody tell me what's an "Apparent Rennerian"??***
I'm new to this whole brewing thing and have been lurking, hoovering,
cutting&pasting, and filing away all the info I can. I just bottled my
first, a basic "Bulldog Amber", which should be ready in another week or
so. My 'sanitation' situation has been pretty scary, so I'm expecting all
kinds of weird flavors and effects. Of course I learned alot the first
time, and will adjust, improvise, and buy more stuff....I can't wait to
R.DW.HAHB!!
BTW, I noticed that there were some other 'South Shore' homebrewers out
there. I'm from Quincy, MA, USA, and always on the lookout for new local
hangouts, etc., although I've gotten some of the best advice yet from as
far away as Australia!!
***feel free to respond to me directly, as I know the list is quite full
enough....
Thanks 
Steve Cobble


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:06:03 -0500
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: cider problems/barley seed

A poster yesterday mentioned a vinegar problem with his batch of
apple cider.  I had the same result with a batch of pear cider.  The
thing is, much of the flavour of the cider is excellent - it's just too
acidic (in that acetic, wrong-kind-of-acidic way).  I recall seeing some
mention of a process related to lambic making that involved
Brettanomyces.  It may have been called 'esterification' and it had
something to do with the conversion of acids to esters.  Does my
memory deceive me here?  Could we convert some of the acetic acid
to something better suited to a beverage?
- ------------
Regarding beer from the dirt.... well, all this talk has me thinking this
sounds like an interesting project.  This is probably the ultimate sign
that I need to be institutionalized.  But while I await the arrival of the
men in the white van, I would like to know where the HBD maltsters
found their barley seed.  Did anyone manage to buy some Maris Otter,
Pipkin, Harrington or Golden Promise?

cheers,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, BC, Can.   


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:43:16 -0500
From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu
Subject: Thoughts on the mixin' of yeasts

I've been thinkin lately (not good, always)...about those wonderful
critters who do so much to help us in our brewing efforts...and I've been
discussing it with several HBDers,...mostly offline.

 David (Persenair) suggested that I ask the HBD, so ....you can blame him
for my fragmented , but well intended thoughts and questions here..

 Especially with Lager yeasts, I'd bet that more of us than would like to
admit it are guilty of underpitching.  Well, we could just step up the
yeast...but if you are brewing a Bock/ or a Dopplebock...that might just
require more yeast than some (many?) of us are prepared for....

So here is the question: Suppose that I have brewed twice with a
yeast,...like WhiteLabs 800 (Pilsner) and I have saved the yeast, and want
to use it for a HUGE Pils....I may not have enough yeast...but suppose that
I try to get another vial of a yeast with similar temperature requirements
(like German Lager 830).  Cannot I use it along with the  Pilsner...?
Would this not
result in an overall greater number of yeasties, which might help to eat up
the relatively higher amount of fermentables, in say a DoppleBock?

Or, will there be a problem in that one (the German) is potentially higher
in attenuation  or floculation than the other?

One more question: Suppose that I don't have the German Lager yeast
available, but that I do have a SafLager Dry Lager
yeast available....This would certainly increase the healthy and hungry and
we hope healthy cells...but would I run into
other problems?

I have  more questions, but would be pleased to get just these few
answered...before I get the others on the table...

Well, just one more: If we are talking about Ale yeasts: are there any
reasonably accepted generalizations, like:
so long as attenuation, temperature and floc are all close..then we could
mix them?

Thinkin' way too much...and I need to get home to a brew!

 ...Darrell



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:26:10 -0500
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: After "oops", another one ...

Brian Lundeen pointed out a common error in the spelling of "oops",  which
brought to mind another all-too-common transgression that really chaps my
keister:

> When people ask if they should wash
> their grapes, I say sure, if your
> goal is to dilute the flavours with
> some water.


Look folks, get it right - the word is spelled "flavors" (which does NOT
rhyme with "devours" ...)


Mark in Kalamazoo (Michigan - The First Line of Defense Against Canada)




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:07:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: Re: Gott cooler/plastic mash tun/lauter tun


I've got a 10 gallon rubbermaid with phalse bottom and simple plastic
bulkhead fitting. Works great! For Step mashing, which i've only done a
few times just dough in (mix your grain/water) use less water than normal
for a thicker mash. Lets say 1 qt per lb for arguments sake. Then as you
step up just add boiling water. There are a ton of spreadsheets out there
to help you figure temps vs. water quantity. I did this and ended up being
almost spot on temp wise.

The best way is of course a nice rims unit. BYO had a article a bit back
on converting a gott cooler to RIMS.

Personally i'm going stick with what i've gott (pun intended) until i can
step up to some converted kegs + 10 gallon batches.



>I was contemplating making/buying the materials to make a gott style
>mashtun. The first question that came to mind
>when doing all grain in a plastic masher, how does one deal with the
>different mash temperatures? IE if I start mashing at 150 for 30 minutes
>then have to mash at 160 for 20 more minutes, how do I raise the temp 10
>degrees? Or are Dynamic mash temps not possible without a heating
>element?
> -Gil Milone
>Private replies
>gilbertmilone at hotmail.com


 Steven St.Laurent ::: stevensl at corp.earthlink.net ::: 403forbidden.net
			[580.2, 181.4] Rennerian

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The Marines don't have that problem." -- President Ronald Reagan, 1985







Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:53:16 -0800
From: Randy Barnes <rbarnes at sdccd.cc.ca.us>
Subject: San Diego Competition and Kettle Screen

Fellow Brewers,

QUAFF San Diego would like to remind you that the 9th Annual America's
Finest City Homebrew 
Competition will be held on Friday and Saturday, March 1 and 2, 2002. Entry
deadline February 22, 
$6.00 per bottle. We're also looking for judges! More information and
on-line registration at
www.softbrew.com/afchbc .

Regarding kettle screens and the problem with hops plugging the screen, I
tried a couple of false-
bottom screens in my kettle with little luck. I solved the problem with a
vertical screen which extends to 
the top of the kettle. It's made from perforated aluminum (my kettle is also
aluminum), bent to a
tall rectangular "tube" with bottom (same material) pop-riveted on. There's
a hole in the side near the
bottom to slip it over the drain to the kettle, and it's held in place with
a 1/2" pipe nut.

Remember to make it big enough to put your arm into to tighten the nut. I
find it works best with 
either whole hops only or a combination of whole hops and pellets. If using
only pellets, I would 
stuff a chore-boy scrubber (or hop bag, cheesecloth, etc) down to the bottom
of the "box" before
draining to filter out the pellet residue.

Works great with minimal whirlpooling.

Randy Barnes
AFCHBC 2002 Organizer
San Diego, California


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:34:08 -0500
From: Al Klein <rukbat at optonline.net>
Subject: Salvaging Flat Beer

Larry Bristol said:
>[I have not bottled in a long time, so if I say something way off base,
>I presume someone will gently correct me.]  What I (used to) do is
>syphon the beer from my secondary into a holding vessel (such as the
>primary fermenter) to remove the trub on the bottom of the fermenter. 

(Siphoning it into the bottles does the same thing.)

>Dissolve about 3/4 cup of corn sweetener in a cup of water

BOILING water, please.  I know - the beer is low pH, it's high
alcohol, etc.  But a cup of near-boiling water won't affect the beer,
and it will ensure that you're adding a *clean* sugar solution.  It
would be a shame to introduce something that would turn a nice APA
into a lambic.

>mix it thoroughly in the beer, then bottle normally.

Whirlpool the beer and let it settle.  Then siphon from the edge of
the vessel.
- ---
[Apparent Rennerian 567.7, 95.9] 
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:34:08 -0500
From: Al Klein <rukbat at optonline.net>
Subject: RIMS PIDs and SSRs

Larry Maxwell asks:

>I recently bought a PID controller with a solid-state relay
>(SSR) output from Omega Eng'g, but failed to read the
>spec sheet closely enough, which noted that the SSR
>handles only 1A max.  I am guessing what I need is
>another (external) SSR that handles 20A or so to control
>my 1500 W heater element (at 120 V).  Is this correct? 
>In other words, do I use the output of the internal SSR to
>control the external SSR?  Seems logical, but before I
>buy one I wanted to ask those in the know.

The SSR handles AC on the output side, and the second one would want
DC on its input (SSRs take DV in and control AC), so that won't work.
There are ways of doing it all solid state, but the easiest way is a
mechanical relay with a 110 volt AC coil and contacts that can handle
your heater (20 amp contacts at least).  If nothing else, motor
starting relays can handle that kind of load.

(You could also use the SSR to control a wall-wart, which would drive
a 20 amp SSR.)
- ---
[Apparent Rennerian 567.7, 95.9] 
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:34:08 -0500
From: Al Klein <rukbat at optonline.net>
Subject: Kettles and Thermometers

David Hooper asks:

>  1.. Never--no need
>  2.. Always--helps consistency
>  3.. Use it for mashing, then remove it for boiling the wort.

>I would be interested in how others use the thermometer in their brew pots,
>and especially if they use it while boiling wort.

Count me in the first part of #2.

Consistency?  My water always boils at the same temperature - so does
my wort, if it's the same SG.

With an electric stove, it takes a while to heat the wort to boiling,
so I keep the thermometer in the wort just to let me know how long
until I have to be back in the kitchen.  Also, after putting the
chiller into the wort, it takes time to get back to 212, so I want it
in then too.  And for cooling, so that I know when I'm done.

(No mashing - I do strictly extract at this time.)
- ---
[Apparent Rennerian 567.7, 95.9] 
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net


Return to table of contents

---