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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  BJCP style guidelines for Palm Pilot (ensmingr)
  Re: Cleaning kegs ... and other stuff ("Gregor Zellmann")
  RE: Drainage, etc. in basement brewing (Paul Shick)
  Carbonation and astringency (Tim  Burkhart)
  Weizen yeast and "Good Eats!" (Joel Plutchak)
  Re: Weizen Yeasts ("Jodie")
  BJCP Palm Database ("Kristen Chester")
  Subject: Ginger in Beer ("Ralph Davis")
  March Mashness call for entries and judges ("Erik Nelson")
  Re: Ginger in Beer (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Weissbier Yeasts (Jeff Renner)
  Beer Stock ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  teflon stir bar / traceable thermometer ("William Graham")
  RE: indoor cleaning (Brian Lundeen)
  Boil Kettle Screen ("Bret Morrow")
  WZZ Homebrew Competition, Reno NV ("John C. Tull")
  Re: Siphoning ("David B. Peterson")
  Siphoning ("Eric R. Lande")
  Cleaning Rusty Kegs ("Charles R. Stewart")
  Dispensing from cornies to a Beer Engine (Robert S Wallace)
  Seattle area Homebrew Competition ("Lori Brown")
  Ranco controller for boil (Al Klein)
  Cleaning kegs ... and other stuff (Al Klein)


*
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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:11:14 -0500
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: BJCP style guidelines for Palm Pilot

Carlos asked about BJCP style guidelines for his Palm Pilot (
http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/3871.html#3871-10 ).

A very simple solution is to simply download the PDF file(s) from
http://www.mv.com/ipusers/slack/bjcp/style-index.html , and then
use the Acrobat Reader for Palm, which is freely available from
the Adobe site (
http://www.adobe.com:80/products/acrobat/readerforpalm.html ).
Works for me, but you may have troubles with these largish files
if your Palm is RAM-impaired.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:29:37 +0100
From: "Gregor Zellmann" <gregor at blinx.de>
Subject: Re: Cleaning kegs ... and other stuff


Steve Alexander wrote in HBD #3871 about the disadvantages of his new
basement, he uses for brewing.

Steve, I think your plan of building a "modular shower" for cleaning your
equipment is a good idea.

As I live on the fifth floor of a big, oldfashioned house in Berlin, I have
to clean my stuff (modified sankes, fermenters, cornies) in the bathtub of
my "flat". What a drag. I always make a mess on the tiled floor too and
there is no floor drain. Cleaning big ss pots in the bathtub can easily
scratch the enamel of the tub. This is a constant worry too, so I lay old
towels in there to avoid this.

I visited two pretty big commercial breweries recently and was allowed to
hang around there during brewdays. What I liked very much, were the big
water hoses literally everywhere in the breweries, which were used all the
time to clean up spills and stuff and brewer's rubber boots. I can imagine,
that you miss your floor drain and hose.

SWMBO is not enthusiastic about my idea to place floor tiles, floor drains
and waterfaucets with hoses attached in our whole place ;-) , so I guess I
have to live with the current setup. I would love to have a basement room
entirely dedicated to brewing!

Gregor Zellmann
Berlin, Germany




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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:43:01 -0600
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: RE: Drainage, etc. in basement brewing


Hi all,

	Steve Alexander writes in about the trials of
setting up a brewery in a basement with only one sink
and an inadequate floor grade.  Steve, I had to deal
with exactly these difficulties when we moved to a "new"
old house about a year and a half ago.  The sink problem
was the easiest to fix: a new "plastic" laundry sink
from a local hardware emporium, placed next to the 
existing sink, gave a nice platform for cleaning and
rinsing.  I didn't bother plumbing the new sink, except
to run a PVC drain pipe to the floor drain.  If you're 
worried about the two sinks forming a stable enough platform, 
it's easy to bolt the legs to the basement floor:  the tub 
legs are predrilled for this.  Is there room for a second
sink in your case?  For the "shower" you suggest, I just 
ran about 8 feet of 3/8" tubing from the sink faucet over 
the overhead water pipes and let it dangle over the sink,
using it for all my water needs.  It gives plenty of
flexibility for cleaning (and makes it easy to hook up
the filter for filling the hot liquor tank.)  I don't
have room for the counter next to the sink, unfortunately,
which would make certain tasks easier.  The washing machine
is a close second, though:  very stable, although a bit too
high for convenience, at times.

	Dealing with the poor drainage was a bit tougher
in my case.  I think that the elevated humidity resulting
from this contributed to a recurring acetobacter infection
problem in the new basement.  Some months back I installed
a dehumidifier that really helps dry things out.  Puddles
from spills now dry out in a few hours, as opposed to a few
days.  The basement certainly seems dryer since then.  With 
the dehumidifier, I still have to mop a bit with big spills, 
but the small spills take care of themselves. The 
acetobacter problem is still there, though, if a fermenter
gets some exposure to air, but it seems a bit less severe 
than before.

	Good luck with the new basement, Steve.  Keep the
experiments coming!

			Paul Shick
			Cleveland Hts, OH


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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:00:04 -0600
From: Tim Burkhart <tburkhart at dridesign.com>
Subject: Carbonation and astringency

All,

Can carbonation enhance an astringency problem in homebrew? I have had a
consistent astringent taste in this season's brews that I have finally
attributed to possible oversparging. I recently fixed a problem with over
acidifying my mash and sparge water, causing an unpleasant twang in the
finished brew.

Before packaging the still beer tastes pleasant. After carbonation and aging
my beers have had a slight puckering, grainy edge that creates a "thin"
flavor in the body. Aroma in the beer is still good, so I don't think I'm
mixing up oxidization with astringency.

Any thoughts? TIA

Tim Burkhart
Kansas City


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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:22:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at uiuc.edu>
Subject: Weizen yeast and "Good Eats!"

   Rick Seibt asked about Weizen yeasts.  I'll add a more
specific question: has anybody used White Labs WLP380 Weizen IV,
which supposedly gives lower banana and higher clove/phenols?
How'd the beer come out?  Sounds right up my alley if it's true.

   Nils Hedglin recommends the "Good Eats!" show and tells
of an upcoming episode on beer (and brewing?).  I'd like
to second the recommendation for the show in general.
Unlike some HBD denizens, he's got a great sense of humor,
knows what he's talking about, and doesn't talk down to
the viewer.

Joel Plutchak <plutchak at [...]>
Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots

"Perhaps I'm missing something..." -One Of Those Denizens



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:22:35 -0500
From: "Jodie" <jodie at ga.prestige.net>
Subject: Re: Weizen Yeasts

Thanks for this discussion. Very interesting and timely.

My second brew was a Half Wit partial grain kit from St. Pat's. It included
a Wyeast smack pack. Didn't write down which one, but I assume #3068. I'm
going to call them so I'll know. Was so excited making my second batch of
beer that I didn't pay attention ;) I bottled it this week, so we'll see how
it comes out.

I just made my first batch of a Paulaner Hefe-Weizen clone using extracts
and grains and White Labs Hefeweizen Ale yeast WLP300, which is the brand
the brew shop I bought my ingredients at carries. When I racked it to the
secondary I was thrilled to smell hefe-weizen-like aromas!
Question: I brewed it the 9th and got a hydrometer reading of 1.062. When I
took a reading Tuesday it was 1.012.  The recipe says this should be the FG.
So, should I bottle it? Any benefit to waiting? I've read two kinds of
advice: bottle your beer when the FG is acheived or when the gravity remains
about constant for a few days, and have also read that the beer needs to
stay in the secondary for a minimum of two weeks.

I've been fermenting at room temps, 70-72 in my house. Is that too warm?
Should I put the carboy in the basement where it's in the low 60's?

BTW, after the debut of my first beer at two weeks of age, an extract with
grains kit from The Home Brewery at a superbowl pay (no one drank any other
beer if that tells you anything ;) ) we saved the rest for an additonal two
weeks and tried it. My husband was blown away by how much it had improved.

Jodie Barthlow
Georgia



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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:25:25 -0500
From: "Kristen Chester" <kristen at cambridge.com>
Subject: BJCP Palm Database

Carlos Benitez  requested a BJCP database to enter
into his palm pilot.  Well... some stalwart soul has
already done it for you, Carlos.

Go here:
http://www.uberbeergeek.com/bih/index.html

and download the Beer Style Viewer for the Palm.
The viewer lists all styles, and is neatly cross
referenced by aroma, flavor, etc...

I use it all the time, and I love it.

I also found the following in my wanderings, but I have no
personal experience with it.  It's called the Beer Style
Guide TinyByte, and you can find it here: (must copy
and paste both halves of the link for it to work of course):

http://www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cfm?sid=47499020020131140840&p
rodID=13985

 ... or just go to www.palmgear.com and type BJCP into
the Search box.

Here's the description from the website:

The Beer Style Guide TinyByte duplicates the Beer
 Judge Certification Program's guide for evaluating beers.
It consists of a main view that lists all the styles recognized
 by the BJCP.

The Beer Judging form works with the style guide to
provide a facsimile of the Beer Judge Certification
Program's standard form for evaluating beers, including
 guidance on what to evaluate for each parameter. It also
contains a self-totaling score tally sheet.

The Homebrew notes tinyByte also works with the
style guide to provide a format for taking notes during a
brew session.

Hope this is of some help for you.

Kristen
Reston, VA



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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:07:48 -0500
From: "Ralph Davis" <rdavis77 at erols.com>
Subject: Subject: Ginger in Beer

I wouldn't want to discourage you from creatively spicing a nice Wit beer,
but a local DC brewpub--who makes excellent beers--has a "Ginger Beer" that
is absolutely awful.  They apparently used Ginger INSTEAD of hops, some
historic recipe, and even won an award for the brew, but to my taste its
disgusting!  Canada Dry is MUCH better!  I'd rather have a hefeweissen.

Ralph W. Davis
Leesburg, Virginia
[395.2, 121.8] Apparent Rennerian

"Beer is living proof that God loves us
and wants us to be happy."   -Benjamin Franklin




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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:03:28 -0600
From: "Erik Nelson" <heimbrauer at mn.astound.net>
Subject: March Mashness call for entries and judges

The 2nd annual March Mashness homebrew competition will be in need of
judging for the entries.  The judging will start on March 9th and on March
10th.  The entries are also be accepted from February 25th until March 8th.

If you have any questions, please feel free to email me at
heimbrauer at astound.net

Erik Nelson




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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:16:04 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Ginger in Beer

Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu> wrote

>This is kind of directed to the Center of the Brewing Universe but I
>thought it could be useful for the collective.
>
>I'm going to be making a witbier for summer quaffing. I like the bitter
>orange and the coriander. I also like ginger. However, I've noticed that
>different types of ginger used different ways can have different results.

Wow, you're ahead of me.  I just buy whatever the grocery store has. 
The only differences I've noticed in ginger is that some has shiny, 
smooth skin and others have a rougher, flaky, papery skin.  Tell me 
more about these ginger varieties.

>I've noticed that some uses of ginger can leave an almost sour flavor and
>aroma in beers. I've also noticed that Jeff Renner indicates that using
>ginger to replace bitter orange in his wit provides some background
>bitterness. I've also noted that some uses of ginger can be very floral
>(esp in cooking).

Actually, what I've written is that the ginger bite replaces the 
lactic tang.  I don't use the orange peel because some wits that use 
it seem to end up with an old lunch meat smell, which may or may not 
be from the orange peel.  At any rate, I don't use it or miss it. 
The coriander seems to provide enough orange flavor.

BTW, for those of you know aren't in the know, Nathan is referring to 
my popular Ginger Wit.  The recipe is at 
http://hbd.org/brewery/cm3/recs/09_85.html.  I get lots of positive 
feedback on this beer.  It's a very refreshing, well balanced beer, 
but it is essential to avoid diacetyl.  I got it once (don't know 
what I did wrong) and it ruined the beer.

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:44:50 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Weissbier Yeasts

Rick <ale_brewer at yahoo.com> asks:

>YeastLab (do they still exist)?

Not liquid yeasts.  HB importer and distributor GW Kent here in Ann 
Arbor contracted with Dan McConnell, who also owns Yeast Culture Kit 
Co., to produce liquid yeast for them under the YeastLab name. 
Apparently there wasn't a big enough market for them and WhiteLabs 
and Wyeast as the hobby shrank a few years ago (maybe two?) and they 
stopped.  They still carry dry yeasts.  Not sure who manufactures 
them.

Dan still sells all of the yeasts on slant that he produced for 
YeastLabs plus more than a hundred others.  Most of them aren't in 
his catalog but they are available.

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943

(Ed: Dan's company, Yeast Culture Kit Company, maintains an electronic
catalog at http://www.yeastculturekit.com)

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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:09:50 -0800
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: Beer Stock

Hi,
  I'm kind of interested in buying some stock in a brewery.  I know Pyramid
has a public offering, what other breweries offer stock?
Thanks


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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:53:51 -0700
From: "William Graham" <billg at compasscom.com>
Subject: teflon stir bar / traceable thermometer

Greets -
	I'm looking for a stir bar for my magnetic stirrer, and have had little
luck finding one on the web. Also, I'm looking for a NIST traceable
thermometer, again, available on the web. Any of you avid bookmarkers know
where I can grab these little thingies?

Thanks,
	Bill, in malty Golden, Colorado



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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:56:39 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: indoor cleaning

Steve Alexander writes:

>  That and a large double cement sink with attached counter 
> top made this a great location for
> handling liquids.   Spills could just be hosed off, and the sink was
> certainly sturdy, low and big enough to allow washing of a 
> sanke, carboy or corny with and it was only a little awkward.

You are a brave man to wash glass in a concrete sink. ;-) I get
butter-fingered regularly enough that I am thankful for my nice, soft
plastic laundry sink.
 
> Also the plastic 
> sink 'seems' less
> sturdy and it's only a single sink - big mistake.   I've 
> washed carboys in
> it, but I'm not about to try sankes.

I struggled with this for awhile, and there is certainly nothing wrong with
putting in a wash-up shower stall. However, I've found a way to clean up my
larger items (such as my Sanke electric boiler) in my plastic laundry sink.
It's not pretty to watch, and my back certainly feels it at the end of the
day, but I just balance the keg on the edge such that the opening of your
keg is toward the inside. I could make this much easier on myself by bolting
the laundry sink to the floor, because it can be a little tippy, but I've
managed to balance it OK so far. Anyway, after a gentle scrub down with a
few liters of PBW solution, I dump that out and balance it on the edge for
the rinse. A length of heavy duty black rubber hose lets me direct the hot
water stream up in to the keg, and the keg is angled so that the rinse water
just drains into the sink through the top. A little rotation so that all
areas get rinsed off and it's not too painful. Of course, this only works on
something that is reasonably enclosed (make sure all drains are closed).
Doesn't help me clean off my big grape press base, but generally that gets
done in weather where it is still possible to hose it down outside.
Yessiree, Bob, nothing like a brisk hosedown of equipment in single digit
temperatures in the wee hours of the morning to make you glad you're a
winemaker.

As for spills, well I was just stupid when I built my house. I knew my
basement would be largely used for my fermenting hobbies, but I still went
ahead and put in a wooden floor. I should have at least kept a section as
concrete with a good floor drain. So, the mop gets an occasional use in my
area, too. The plus side is, the wooden floor is a lot more forgiving when I
put my carboys down a little on the forceful side. 

Cheers
Brian


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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:06:02 
From: "Bret Morrow" <bretmorrow at hotmail.com>
Subject: Boil Kettle Screen

Greetings,

I was playing around withe idea of using a Nylon mesh to filter out trub/hop 
leaf residue after the boil.  The specs on the mesh I have available says 
its softening temp is 437-455 oF (the only true measure of temperature).  
Also, I can get my hands on Polyester screen cloth (softens 438-464 oF) and 
Polypropylene cloth (melting temp 320-340 oF).  The mesh pore size is 
variable so I can pick what ever I need.

Does anyone know about the use of such things in brewing?  Does anyone know 
what mesh pore size is commonly used?  The advantages of easily 
removed/easily cleaned appeals to me.  Also the sharp stainless steel wires 
on my EZ masher always seem to find their way into my finger tips!

Cheers,
Bret Morrow
Hamden, CT
(eastish and slightly southish Rennerian)






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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:33:18 -0800
From: "John C. Tull" <jctull at biodiversity.unr.edu>
Subject: WZZ Homebrew Competition, Reno NV

The Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists Homebrew Competition (24 March 2002) will 
be needing judges and stewards as well as entrants. We now have our 
online registration available. You can find all the details as well as 
the links for registering as a judge, steward, or entrant here:

http://homepage.mac.com/wzz/wzz-comp2002.html

Thanks and hope you can participate,
John Tull
Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists
Reno, Nevada



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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:04:43 -0800
From: "David B. Peterson" <dave at toppledwagon.com>
Subject: Re: Siphoning


There is only one way to siphon easily.  The siphon starter from 
Fermtech:  <http://www.fermtech.on.ca/>  (NAYYY)

I've been using this product for many years and I can't imagine 
brewing without it.

And if you use those rubber caps, when you blow into the carboy, your 
exhaust breath is still contaminating your beer, even if you do 
gargle with vodka beforehand.

Good luck and happy brewing!

 -Dave


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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:45:27 -0500
From: "Eric R. Lande" <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Siphoning

Andrew Nix (Clinton) seems to be playing the semantics game with my post
on siphoning.  Andrew I guess it depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

I know this is just details, but using CO2 to force the flow is still a 
siphon provided you stop adding CO2 once the flow is going.  If your 
lifting the fluid above it's height at any point and the flow continues 
after starting, it is a siphon.

I wrote that IF you started with the source carboy above the reipient
that it would act like a siphon.  Now if both the source and recipient
are on the same level, once you start the flow with your CO2, the flow
will continue in siphon-like fashion until the source carboy is half
empty and the recipient is half full, and then stop.  (BTW- by not
continuing to push the beer with the CO2 and simply letting air (O2) be
sucked into the carboy as the beer exits, you risk oxidation.)  So, in
short, in stead of knit picking, open a home brew and relax, life is too
short.


Eric Lande
Doylestown, PA


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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:01:55 -0500
From: "Charles R. Stewart" <Charles at TheStewarts.com>
Subject: Cleaning Rusty Kegs

Along with the last batch of corney kegs I received, were several that had
small rust spots on the inside.  In the hundreds of kegs I've received over
the past year, I've never encountered this.  Maybe some sort of acid was
stored in them?  Anyhow, is there anything I can do so that I can use them?

Chip Stewart
Charles at TheStewarts.com
http://Charles.TheStewarts.com

Pursuant to United States Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section
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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:48:46 -0600
From: Robert S Wallace <rwallace at iastate.edu>
Subject: Dispensing from cornies to a Beer Engine

Hello HBDers:

	A quick question for those that may have experience dispensing from a 5
gallon Cornelius keg to an authentic beer engine.
	I am the recent proud owner of a Homark Beer engine that works superbly
(great eBay contact!) and am looking for advice as to how to best dispense
'traditional' ales from cornies.  I would like to set up some form of CO2
breather system following natural carbonation so that the hand pumped ale
characteristics are preserved even if I don't finish the keg in one night
(!).  My bar is on the first floor and the 50^F beer fridge is in the
basement just under the bar - I expect to pull beer from the basement
through a line of about 15 to 20 feet.  What diameter beverage hose might
you suggest?
	I have heard/read of using the gas-in side to pull beer from, and the
liquid-out fitting to let air into the keg, necessitating that laying of
the cornie on its side at an angle (not unlike real ale stillage).  What's
to prevent using the cornie in the 'normal' configuration (upright and pull
from the liquid out)??  Would be a major PITA to have to lay kegs down in
my fridge....

	If anyone has experience in setting up a beer engine hand pump system (or
knows of a good web reference) I'd love hearing about it, and how you have
set up your system.  Reconstruction of the new bartop is about to begin
(i.e. $ 150 worth of 8/4 mahogany is in the woodshop, and all measurements
have been taken!) and before I begin building the bartop, I would like to
get some input from experienced beer engine users!  Thanks in advance!

Rob Wallace  (please cc to rwallace  at  iastate.edu
Ames, Iowa
(Amateur Radio WA0RW)




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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:34:28 -0800
From: "Lori Brown" <loribrown at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Seattle area Homebrew Competition

The 6th Annual St. Patrick's Cascadia Cup Homebrew Competition will be held
March 9th at Hales Ales in Seattle, Washington.  All styles of beer, mead
and cider will be judged according to the current BJCP guidelines.

Judges and steward are encouraged to sign up online at
www.cascadebrewersguild.org

Anyone wishing to enter their homebrewed beverages can also sign up online
at www.cascadebrewersguild.org  The entry fee is $6 per entry.  Enter as
many times as you would like, but please limit your entries to one per
subcategory.  Prizes this year include $100 gift certificate for the best of
show entry, along with gift certificates of $30, $20, $10 (first, second,
and third place) in each flight.  See website for Western Washington
homebrew shops that are accepting entries.  Gift certificate awards are
redeemable at these shops either in person or for mail orders.  Entries are
due from now until March 3rd.

For more information check out the website or contact Lori Brown, 2002
Competition Organizer, at loribrown at worldnet.att.net  425-771-7602

Good luck!



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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:29:02 -0500
From: Al Klein <rukbat at optonline.net>
Subject: Ranco controller for boil

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:10:06 -0500, in rec.crafts.brewing you wrote:

Drew Avis asked:

>What I'm
>wondering is how the Ranco would handle boiling temps.  That is, is the
>temperature differential between a too-vigorous or boil-over boil and a
>normal, steady boil enough

No, for a given liquid, the difference in the temperature at which it
just simmers and the one at which it boils over the top is zero.  For
pure water that would be 212F in either case.  The extra heat goes
into the change of state from water to gas, not into any change in
temperature.  (Water at 1 atmosphere can't get any hotter than 212F.)
- ---
[Apparent Rennerian 567.7, 95.9] 
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net


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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:29:02 -0500
From: Al Klein <rukbat at optonline.net>
Subject: Cleaning kegs ... and other stuff

Steve Alexander asks:

>I'm considering installing a modular shower (no shower head - just hose)
>just so I have a spot where I can hose off sankes etc and tip them out
>without making a mess.  Actually a short 4ft or so type 3 sided enclosure
>with a base drain would do.  That doesn't really address spills and
>boilovers. Any thoughts ?  Anyone have a good solution for spills and
>cleanup when brewing indoors ?

Depending on the size of the room you're brewing in and the height of
the ceiling, it may be better to pour another inch or two of floor
with a greater slope.  (And replace the plastic sink.)
- ---
[Apparent Rennerian 567.7, 95.9] 
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net


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