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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  basement brewing/SWMBO management/language-flavor ("Steve Alexander")
  The Jethro Gump Request-Millet Malting ("Rob Moline")
  Hefe Weizen Yeast (Len Safhay)
  RE: Weissbier by any other name... ("Dennis Lewis")
  Weissbier & Weizen (Rick)
  Weizen/Weisse (Brad McMahon)
  Re: Weizen / Weissbier (Wes Smith)
  Weiss / Weizen ("R. Schaffer-Neitz")
  Invitation To All Brewers ("Wayne Holder")
  leftovers ("Andrew Moore")
  Refrigerator Fermentation ("John Gubbins")
  Weizen / Weissbier ("Thomas D. Hamann")


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Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 02:07:10 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: basement brewing/SWMBO management/language-flavor

Gregor Zellman writes ...

>As I live on the fifth floor of a big, oldfashioned house in Berlin, I have
>to clean my stuff (modified sankes, fermenters, cornies) in the bathtub of
>my "flat".

Yow !  How do you heat a sanke boiler in a 5th floor flat ?  You and Larry
Maxwell deserve some sort of citation - perhaps from the fire marshall.

>SWMBO is not enthusiastic about my idea to place floor tiles, floor drains
[...]
Gregor - perhaps you skipped the course on managing SWMBO.  The basic rule
is this - you are not disobeying if you never ask for permission.  The
corollary is that forgiveness is more abundant and less costly than
permission.

If you surprise SWMBO by replacing the bathtub with a  tiled shower with
floor drain or with 150 square meters of planted barley in the yard she will
become 'enthusiastic' almost instantly.  Trust me, I have experience in this
matter.

I appreciate that Larry Maxwell brews on a plastic mat in his living
room(ouch), and that it's possible to brew in a 5th floor apartment, but
I've gotten used to hoses and damp sneakers - it really works better I
think.
- --

I'm 100% with Paul Shick on dehumidifiers in indoor home breweries.   It's a
must in humid climates unless you enjoy fungus and infections.

A hose, particularly with a kitchen spray head eliminates the water outlet
issue too.  I have plenty of headroom and floor space for sinks and
counters, but I still can't see cleaning a sanke in a plastic sink with the
edge 35 inches off the ground..

Perhaps the best ideas appeared offline  - better than my thoughts about a
modular shower would be HBD janitor Pat Babcock's suggestion of a mop sink.
Something like the corner unit at http://www.justmfg.com/service.htm or the
vastly cheaper -36 model at http://www.sinkworld.com/page4.html, and Jason
Henning's mention of a wet/dry vac.

===
btw - 'speriments - John Palmer has suggested that malt can be used in place
of barley seed tho' the germination rate is poor.   I also have seen barley
sprouting from my brewing compost heap so it is certainly possible.     I
took 100 corns from a fresh Weissheimer pils malt bag and started by soaking
them in & off as in a malting session.   11 of the lot have developed
acrospires which appear to actually be growing, not just popping out of the
husk.  The disappointing thing is that none have developed any root shoots
at all !

This might work, but the germination rate may be too low even for
experimentation.    I do have a source for 2-row malting barley seed for
this years 'beer from dirt' trials.

====
Michael Schrempp writes ...

> I propose that we let
>this language thread drop and move on to other things.

This forum is for all things brewing not just your current interests.
Perhaps someday you *will* be interested in sparge arms, triac circuitry,
beer language, RIMS, caramelization products,  fridge repair, FWH or the
properties of weizen yeasts and you can  look at. http://hbd.org/ search
engine or Spencer's http://hubris.engin.umich.edu:8080/cgi-bin/dothread for
twelve+ years of *uncensored* HBD at your fingertips.  Of course if we take
brewing topics offline they won't appear in the archives.

The language discussion isn't about  a few beer snobs inventing
high-falootin' terms.  It's about the lack of words to describe the everyday
aromas and flavors that are regularly discussed here.  Look at the posts
this week - odd  flavors & Santiam,  Styrian Goldings substitutes and the
odd off-flavor one HBer gets after carbonation.   This isn't some abstract
problem to be debated offline by "afficianados".   I rather liked the "wet
cedar"=santiam - tho' I don't know if it's accurate.

 -S




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Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 01:22:38 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Request-Millet Malting

		The Jethro Gump Request-Millet Malting
Folks,
	I forward on a request for information to you....please help if you can...

>What I would like to find is someone to malt seeds of a plant different
than
>barley, foxtail millet.  I have had a keen desire for several years to do
>the entire malting process, from germinating the seed to roasting, and then
>make beer (or make beer with someone) from the product.  I have a small
>vineyard in my backyard here in Ames and make wine when the birds don't get
>the grapes first.  I used to brew beer for many years, but gave it up (too
>much work, too much water volume for fun at home).  My peak brewing
>experience was a light, highly hopped, lager I made in a refrigerator.  I
>did the secondary fermentation at about 40 degrees F for 6 months, superb.
>
>People who malt are rare, it seems to be a very delicate process when done
>by hand.  Its easy get the germination timing wrong, and the roasting
wrong.
>Hence the desire for a real professional, if you know of one anywhere.
>
>I do research in the Agronomy Dept. here at ISU, on Iowa's worst weed
group,
>the foxtails (Setaria spp.).  This weed is also a crop, foxtail millet and
>korali (green and yellow foxtail respectively).  Both are used to make beer
>(Africa, Russia, central Asia), and I even have reports of it being
>distilled (Fox-ka?).
>
>Any help you can provide finding a willing malter would be appreciated.  I
>can't help but believe with the all the micro-brewing going on in this
>country now that a foxtail beer (or barley + foxtail) wouldn't be an
>interesting marketing idea.  But I am biased toward my favorite plant and
>weed.
>
>Thanks for any help you can provide.  I have more on the foxtails at my web
 .site:
 .
>http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jdekker/homepage.html
>
>Jack

	Thanks for any help any of you can provide...I know someone out there has
more experience than I do...
Gump



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Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:18:24 -0500
From: Len Safhay <cloozoe at optonline.net>
Subject: Hefe Weizen Yeast

Was going to culture a slant from a bottle of Schneider Hefe-Weizen, but
was reading in Warner's German Wheat Beer book that sometimes a
different - Lager - yeast is used for bottle conditioning. Does anyone
know whether I'd be culturing the primary fermentation yeast or a
second, bottling specific, strain?
Len Safhay



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Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:53:31 -0500
From: "Dennis Lewis" <dblewis at dblewis.com>
Subject: RE: Weissbier by any other name...

On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:36:09 -0500, you wrote in the HBD

>Subject: Weizen / Weissbier
>
>Hi all.  The recent discussion on weizen yeasts has brought out my anal
>retentive side.  *Weizen* means "wheat" in German and in beer terms is
>usually used as a short form of "hefeweizen" which is the wheat beer with
>yeast (hefe) floating in it brewed in southern germany.
>
>*Weissbier* is something completely different.  Weiss means "white" in
>German and weissbier refers to a beer brewed primarily in the Berlin area
>with an almost soda-like carbonation.  This is the beer that phillistine
>Germans add to lemon-lime soda to make a "radler."
>
>There, just needed to get that off my chest.  I saw one too many people
>referring to "weizen" yeast as "weisse" and had to object.

Well Bob, I'm sure that you're going to get more than a few replies 
regarding your post. I think that you need to read up on German wheat 
beers a bit more before chiding the group as you did. If you don't have 
Eric Warner's book from the Classic Beer Styles series _German Wheat 
Beer_ (where he discusses both Bavarian Weissbier and Berliner Weisse) I 
highly recommend it.

Also, check out the brewery web pages. Paulaner for instance
http://www.paulaner.de/e/index.html has descriptions for all five of 
it's weissbiers using 'weizenbier' 'weissbier' and 'weisse' 
interchangably. They even refer to their dunkelweizen as a 'Hefe-Weissbier 
Dunkel'. Too literally translated means 'yeasty dark white beer' which 
makes no sense unless you know the history of hefe-weizen. The 'weiss'
or white part of the name comes from the fact that wheat beers of the
time (like hundreds of years ago) were considerably whiter than the 
regular beers due to the kilning process for the malts. Also, the 
suspended yeast had to make it appear lighter as well.

Also, a radler is half helles and half lemon soda. Check out this site
http://www.bicycles.de/guides/bguides1.htm for the complete history 
about the radler (in german, sorry). A half weissbier half lemon soda
is called a 'Russ' or 'Russnmass'. http://www.biergarten.com/red/b2.htm

BTW, if you come across a 'Wiess', don't assume it's a typo--it might
be an unfiltered koelsch! (Warner, _Koelsch_, Classic Beer Styles)

Don't be afraid to Google search the web...you might learn something.

Ein prosit!

Dennis Lewis
Warren, OH




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Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:30:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Rick <ale_brewer at yahoo.com>
Subject: Weissbier & Weizen

Bob Schaffer-Neitz says:

>*Weizen* means "wheat" in German and in beer terms is
>usually used as a short form of "hefeweizen" which is
>the wheat beer with yeast (hefe) floating in it
>brewed in southern germany.

Yes Bob this is gramatically true. But I think you'd
have a few Bavarians to convince otherwise.  I've
heard it (hefeweizen)referred to as Weissbier more
often than by it's true name.  Sit in a Bavarian
biergarten and order a Weissbier and see what you get.
I'll wager a pretty penny it won't be a Berliner
Weisse. In fact, Eric Warner's excellent book "German
Wheat Beer" refers to Hefeweizen as "colloquially
means wheat beer or Weissbier" - not exactly the way
you have it defined.


>I saw one too many people
>referring to "weizen" yeast as "weisse" and had to 
>object.

You may have also have a lot of Bavarian brewers to
convince. Sitting in front of me are six "weizen" beer
bottles (empty alas) and let me write down what their
label says:

"Ayinger Ur-Weisse"  (dunkleweizenbier)
"Ayinger Braeu Weisse" (hefeweizen)
"Franziskaner Hefe-Weisse"
"Schneider Weisse" Hefeweizen
"Edelweiss Weissbier" Dunkel
"Kapuziner Weissbier" (neck label) Kapuziner
Hefeweizen (main label)

I can assure you that none of these beers fit into the
Berliner Weisse category. I hope that your "anal
retentive side" will allow me to refer to it as
millions of Bavarians do.

BTW, Pale Ale isn't really that "Pale" all the time.

Rick Seibt




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Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:11:30 +1030
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Weizen/Weisse

Bob Schaffer-Neitz writes:

 >Hi all. The recent discussion on weizen yeasts has brought out my anal
 >retentive side. *Weizen* means "wheat" in German and in beer terms is
 >usually used as a short form of "hefeweizen" which is the wheat beer with
 >yeast (hefe) floating in it brewed in southern germany.
 >*Weissbier* is something completely different. Weiss means "white" in
 >German and weissbier refers to a beer brewed primarily in the Berlin area
 >with an almost soda-like carbonation.

Not so.
Weissbier, weisse and weizen are used interchangeably in
southern Germany to mean the same beer. Both are often
used in the same sentence!
A perfect example is Loewenbraeu. Their current wheat beers are
"Hefe weissbier", "Schwarze Weisse", and "Kristallweizen"

You will find virtually every Bavarian wheat beer brewery
will do the same thing. Have a look at the Erdinger
and Maisel's labels for example. Both weizen and weiss(e)
printed on the same label.

To further confuse you, in speech, Bavarians may also
refer to them as "wies'n"(field) beers.

If you were in Germany you would need to specifically
ask for a "Berliner Weisse" if that's what you wanted.
Else you would much more likely get a hefeweizen if you asked
for a "weisse", unless of course, you were in Berlin at the time.

 >This is the beer that phillistine
 >Germans add to lemon-lime soda to make a "radler."

Actually a pils or helles mixed 50/50 with limonade is a "Radler".
A Bavarian style weizenbier mixed with limonade is
a "Russ" or "Russ'n"
If you mix weizen with cola (!) you have a "neger" which
is also called a "flieger" in Westfalen/Rheinland.

Prost!

Brad McMahon
Aldgate, Sth. Australia.
   



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Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:14:04 +1100
From: Wes Smith <wsmith at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Weizen / Weissbier

Bob Schaffer-Neitz refers to what he believes to be the correct term for a 
Bavarian style wheat beer and attributes the "weissbier" term to something 
from a little further north in Germany.

Now as it happens I was reading Digest #3873 and had just poured myself an 
Erdinger - wait for it - "Weissbier". Actually it was a hefe-weizen. 
Curious, I looked at some of the other empty bottles and brochures I happen 
to have and low and behold all were called "weissbeir". Munchner Kindl from 
HB and the best hefe-weizen I have ever tasted - Unertl both call their 
beers "weissbier"

The Berlin variety seems to be called "Berliner Weisse"

I think what we have here is marketing license where, for whatever reason, 
all Bavarian wheat beers have come to be called "weissbier". Certainly all 
I had to do to order the house hefe-weizen while in Munich last October was 
ask for a "weissbier". Oh - one exception I noted was Schofferhofer, they 
prefer hefe-weizen.

Wes.

>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:36:09 -0500
>From: "R. Schaffer-Neitz" <rschaff at ptd.net>
>Subject: Weizen / Weissbier
>
>
>Hi all.  The recent discussion on weizen yeasts has brought out my anal
>retentive side.  *Weizen* means "wheat" in German and in beer terms is
>usually used as a short form of "hefeweizen" which is the wheat beer with
>yeast (hefe) floating in it brewed in southern germany.
>
>
>*Weissbier* is something completely different.  Weiss means "white" in
>German and weissbier refers to a beer brewed primarily in the Berlin area
>with an almost soda-like carbonation.  This is the beer that phillistine
>Germans add to lemon-lime soda to make a "radler."
>
>
>There, just needed to get that off my chest.  I saw one too many people
>referring to "weizen" yeast as "weisse" and had to object.
>
>
>Cheers,
>
>
>Bob Schaffer-Neitz
>Northumberland, PA
>375, 102.6 (apparent)



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Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:27:58 -0500
From: "R. Schaffer-Neitz" <rschaff at ptd.net>
Subject: Weiss / Weizen

Sheepish Greetings to the Collective:

As several people have pointed out to me, I sounded off without correct info
on the weizen/weiss thing.  As Dennis Lewis pointed out to me, even
Paulaner's website lists its hefeweizens as "hefe-weissbier" (sorry, can't
do the scharfes "s" on my keyboard).  I must not have been deep enough in
Bavaria (Wurzburg) because I can't recall anyone ever referring to
hefeweizen as anything but hefeweizen.  Or maybe the "weiss" part is a more
recent bit of marketing on the part of the brauereis to emphasize the
"lightness" of hefeweizen as a means of competing with the threat of
megaswills (I was in Germany in 1986).

It was also pointed out to me that a "radler" is made with helles, and a
"russenmass" is made with Berliner weisse.  Again, sorry for the error.  My
host family in Wurzburg must not have been as knowlegable about beer as I'd
thought because they gave me that incorrect info.  Don't they have to pass a
test on beer to graduate high school? ;>)  Anyway, I promise to check my own
facts henceforth, rather than relying on you all to do it for me.

Zum Wohl,

Bob Schaffer-Neitz
Northumberland, PA
375, 102.6 (apparent)



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Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:31:46 -0800
From: "Wayne Holder" <zymie at charter.net>
Subject: Invitation To All Brewers



Grand Re-opening - Homebrew shop, Stein Fillers, goes nonprofit.

The California Fermentation Society* would like to welcome all brewers to
attend the grand re-opening of Stein Fillers brewing Supply in Long Beach,
CA.

Stein Fillers homebrewing and winemaking supply store is under new
management, with a portion of profits going to a scholarship fund for the
support of  brewing science.

Date: March 2
Time: 11am - 6pm
Where: 4160 Norse Way, Long Beach, Ca. 90808
Phone:  (562)-425-0588
What:
    Brewing Demonstrations
    Food
    Homebrewed beer tasting
    Red Tag Sale


Customers of local homebrewing and winemaking supply stores have seen many
other similar stores go out of business and came up with a plan to save this
one in Long Beach.  This type of niche business is a something between a
cooking store and a hobby shop and when the owner told them he wanted to
leave the business,
the customers got together and formed a nonprofit corporation* to manage and
take over the business.  It is now a reality and the new owners are ready to
celebrate the grand re-opening.

The new group knows that this type of business is not very profitable, but
as a Public Benefit Corporation they now are not under pressure to turn a
profit. They also decided that any moneys left at the end of the year could
be set aside for a scholarship fund to educate those who would be interested
in pursuing a career in brewing or winemaking.

      *California Fermentation Society -  Mission Statement:

      This corporation is a nonprofit public benefit corporation and is not
organized for the private gain of any person. It is organized under the
Nonprofit Public Benefit Corporation Law for charitable purposes. The
specific purpose for which this corporation is organized is to educate the
general public in the art and science of grain and fruit based fermentation.
The means of providing such education includes, but is not limited to,
maintaining a retail shop for the purpose of providing access to materials,
supplies, educational information, and awarding an annual scholarship.


For more information see our web site at http://www.steinfillers.com




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Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:14:25 -0500
From: "Andrew Moore" <abmjunk at hotmail.com>
Subject: leftovers

Jeremy asks about a recipe with the following leftover ingredients:

Wyeast 1098 - British Ale
1/4oz - Fuggles hops
1oz - Saaz hops
1oz - Yakima Kent Goldings hops
1oz - Norther Brewer hops
1/4-1/2lb Crystal (10L) Malt grains

Jeremy:

For me, recipe formulation is the most interesting aspect of homebrewing; 
the goal being to make the beer YOU like. Trial and error is probably the 
best way to learn about what recipes and ingredients YOU prefer, regardless 
of what others may think or what the established styles may dictate. Of 
course, if you prefer perfecting your favorite commercial beer clone, more 
power to you. And, although they should not be viewed as limiting, the 
established styles do provide a convenient springboard from which to start 
experimenting.

As for your leftover ingredients, it looks like 5 gallons of pale ale, to 
me. I would add seven pounds, or so, of liquid light extract syrup and use 
everything else you have. Steep the grains. Start the boil with the extract. 
Add Northern Brewer for 60 min, Saaz for 30 min, Goldings for 15 min and the 
Fuggles for 5 min or less. You might shift some of the Goldings into the 
finishing category (5 min or less), if you like hop aroma.

Good luck with the experiments. One final note: to establish a clear cause 
and effect of particular ingredients or techniques on recipes, it's 
important to limit the variables from batch to batch. In other words, don't 
try everything at once. For example, I decided to limit myself to one kind 
of yeast while I experimented with specialty grains and hops.

Andrew Moore
Richmond, Virginia



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Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 17:20:20 -0700
From: "John Gubbins" <n0vse at idcomm.com>
Subject: Refrigerator Fermentation

Here is the conclusion of the uncontrolled fermentation on top of the
refrigerator.  As those of you who read my post on Saturday know, the
sample of wort was fermenting nicely.  It smelled like bread.  It
smelled good.  But by Sunday morning a fast growing bacterial
infection had taken over.  Gone was the kreusen and in was the white
slime.

This was an interesting experiment in fermentation, at least to me.
It proves that yes there are yeasts around in the air and there are
also some really nasty critters.  It also shows that the top of a
refrigerator is an ideal environment to ferment on.  For me it is not
practical since the fridge is tall and I don't want a carboy up there
and there is too much light.  For those with fridges in the basement
it may make sense since it will keep your temperature about right.

This winter in Colorado has been pretty normal temperature wise, but
we are experiencing a drought.  This happens.  For brewing beer at
this house I always wonder about the temperature.  The fermentations
take place in the basement where it is about 63 degrees.  I usually
don't have any problems however.

Anyway, I thought this somewhat interesting and wanted to pass it
along.

John Gubbins
Littleton, Co Apparent Rennerian 1117,265.5




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Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 23:58:08 +1030
From: "Thomas D. Hamann" <tdhamann at senet.com.au>
Subject: Weizen / Weissbier

I am afraid that I have to disagree Bob.
Ther are 3 terms used - Weizen, Weissbier and Weisse.
Weizen and Weissbier are interchangable and usually refer to southern 
German wheat beers.
When a beer is just referred to as 'Weisse' it's usually the Berlin version 
which is low in alcohol, high in fizz and quite sour often sweetened with 
red or green cordial, the green being Waldmeister syrup (woodruff).
Weiss does mean white and Weissbier seems to be the more popular name for 
southern German wheat beer e.g. Schneider Weisse (brewed in Bavaria [not 
pronounced BaRvaria!!!] and the BEST!!!)
My findings show that a beer made with wheat can be called Weisse, the 
Berlin version isn't called a Weizen though.
I'm not to sure about the Radler term though, I thought it was a beer 
(usually a Pils) mixed 50/50 with lemonade. I don't think a Berliner Weisse 
with lemon/lime soda is what's called a Radler.  I also think Alsterwasser 
is another name for Radler and what we call a shandy in Australia.

seeya,

Thomas.


At 15:42 23/02/02, you wrote:
>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:36:09 -0500
>From: "R. Schaffer-Neitz" <rschaff at ptd.net>
>Subject: Weizen / Weissbier
>
>Hi all.  The recent discussion on weizen yeasts has brought out my anal
>retentive side.  *Weizen* means "wheat" in German and in beer terms is
>usually used as a short form of "hefeweizen" which is the wheat beer with
>yeast (hefe) floating in it brewed in southern germany.
>
>*Weissbier* is something completely different.  Weiss means "white" in
>German and weissbier refers to a beer brewed primarily in the Berlin area
>with an almost soda-like carbonation.  This is the beer that phillistine
>Germans add to lemon-lime soda to make a "radler."
>
>There, just needed to get that off my chest.  I saw one too many people
>referring to "weizen" yeast as "weisse" and had to object.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Bob Schaffer-Neitz
>Northumberland, PA
>375, 102.6 (apparent)
>
>





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---