---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Opportunity for Dan Listermann (Pat Casey)
  Blocked Bazooka screens (Pat Casey)
  The Jethro Gump Report-Servo ("Rob Moline")
  Bitter Beer with Safale (Tony Barnsley)
  Screen usage ("Peter Fantasia")
  Kettle screens ("Michael Maag")
  Re: Converting Extract Recipes to All Grain ("Larry Bristol")
  Utopias MMII (Alan Monaghan)
  Conversion perversion (Pat Babcock)
  Grain bed depth and Gott cooler ("Brian Schar")
  Converting Extract Recipes to All Grain (LJ Vitt)
  Re: Converting Extract Recipes to All Grain ("Drew Avis")
  re: SS Weld Finishing and Steam Sterilization (theory and practic ("Hall, Kevin")
  Mead (Chuck Doucette)
  More Lists ("Mark Ellis")
  3068 yeast ("D. Clark")


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Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 17:03:05 +1100
From: Pat Casey <patcasey at iprimus.com.au>
Subject: Opportunity for Dan Listermann

Dr Pivo touches on the vile and seedy world of the yeast abuser, and
someone else mentions wanting to clone a Victoria Bitter. There is a
clear opportunity here for Dan: Phil's Phlogger, the perfect device for
dealing with brewing deviants and miscreants. It would probably also
prove popular in Townsville where they enjoy this sort of thing anyway.

Pat



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Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 17:07:41 +1100
From: Pat Casey <patcasey at iprimus.com.au>
Subject: Blocked Bazooka screens

I've not seen a Bazooka screen, nor read an exact description of one.
But from what I can gather and judging from the complaints, maybe this
will help:

I use a 15" length of 3/4" SS braid, aka "The Slug" in my 12" diameter
kettle and all my hopping schedules include 15 to 30 gram of whole hops,
either loose or as a plug. Typically there'll be another 60 to 80 gram
of pellets, plus 1/3 tab of Whirlfloc - for 20 litres into the
fermenter. After the boil I whirlpool, let it all sit for 15 to 20
minutes then run off. The whole hops sink to the bottom with the pellet
debris and trub on top. The whole hops sitting on top of the braid make
for a very effective screen and give a very clear run off.

Pat





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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 00:05:50 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report-Servo

>From: Alan Meeker <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
>Subject: Tom Servo
>
>Concerning Servomyces, Rob Moline posted:
><SNIP>
>One word of caution here, <SNIP>
> -Alan Meeker

	Alan, I will personally provide you with a copy of a videotape (DVD, if you
prefer.) of Keith Vila of Coors, some years ago  at  a conference, where he
stated that research  at  Coors, expected to find an upward limit for
zinc...was unable to....as far as the yeast were concerned.

	Once you evaluate this presentation, I look forward to your insights.
	I will send the London in the same packet.
	Further, Chris White recently wrote in the New Brewer regarding Servo..have
you seen that? If not, I will send a copy.

Cheers!
Rob

Jethro Gump

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
New Address- jethrogump at mchsi.com



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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:23:23 -0000 
From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk>
Subject: Bitter Beer with Safale

Darrell has had problems with a really bitter beer where he reused Safale
Yeast

> Hops were: 1 0z Cascade at 60
>           1 oz Fuggles at 30
> same at 15, with .5 oz Cascade...

> Perhaps too much hops?

No I don't think so

> It tastes REALLY bitter...can it be the reused Safale yeast,

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I've had a really bitter beer
using Safale, when I commented on it on UK (Craft) Homebrew, others reported
the same thing. The common factors appeared to be sulphate rich liquors
(Naturally or via the addition of gypsum), in combination with certain
varieties of hops. In mine and at least one other Target was the culprit.
The bitterness does fade with time which suggests that the suspended yeast
also has some effect. My beer was certainly clear but running some through a
1 micron (absolute) filter, dropped the bitterness to a more 'acceptable'
level

Hope this helps

- --

Wassail!

The Scurrilous Aleman (ICQ 46254361)
Schwarzbad Lager Brauerei, Blackpool, Lancs, UK
Rennerian Coordinates (I'm Not Lost! I'm A Man, I don't ask for directions)

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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 08:01:55 -0500
From: "Peter Fantasia" <fantasiapeter at hotmail.com>
Subject: Screen usage

Mike and Paul wrote about screening pellet hops out of the wort. I use a
home made version of the bazooka/easy masher. When using small amounts of
pellets had no problem .It's when using large amounts that I ran into
problems. I was talking wiyh Cowan the Beerbarian on the Brew Rat Chat and
he had a good suggestion which I've since used twice successfully. Buy a
large (9" by 5" minimum, bigger the better) nylon straining bag and suspend
it on a string or wire in the kettle. Pull it out and add hops for each
addition. Works great and as an added benefit you can remove hops before
cooling.

Cheers
Pete Fantasia
NJ
AKA Madman on the chat


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Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 08:07:37 -0500
From: "Michael Maag" <MichaelMaag at doli.state.va.us>
Subject: Kettle screens


 "Rogers, Mike" <mike.rogers at eds.com> is having problems with his
Bazooka screen clogging from pellet hops.
I use EasyMasher/SureScreens in my kettle, and the important things to
remember are:  Do not use Irish Moss, and let the wort settle for at
least 40 min. (after chilling if an immersion chiller is used).  If the
pellet particles are suspended in the wort, they will flow into, and
clog, the screen.
It helps to have at least an ounce of flower/plug hops in the boil, but
I have omitted them with success.  However, I always have my racking
cane and hose on stand-by  8*)
Hope this helps,
Mike Maag, Shenandoah Valley


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Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 07:39:29 -0600
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: Converting Extract Recipes to All Grain

On Fri, 8 Mar 2002 00:17:19 -0500, "Jeff Storm" <stormyjeff at lycos.com>
wrote:

>Anyway, I am trying to figure out how to convert extract recipes 
>to all grain.  Is there any conversion method to change the lbs 
>of extract to pounds of grain?

Jeff, the answer is both simple and not.  Here is the simple part:  You
need 1.25 pounds of pale malt for each 1.00 pounds of plain, unhopped,
light liquid malt extract (5lbs to 4lbs); you need 1.67 pounds of pale
malt for each 1.00 pounds of plain, unhopped, light dry malt extract
(5lbs to 3lbs).

The problem is that "plain, unhopped, light liquid/dry malt extract" is
not always the same from one recipe to the next.  If the recipe is for
a lager, for example, then you would probably want to use pilsner malt
instead of pale malt.  And if the recipe calls for a particular brand
of extract, then there may be something unique about the way in which
that malt is produced that you would need to know.  Making malt extract
is [essentially] the same process as mashing/sparging, so there can be
a lot of variations in the process from one brand to the next.  You can
probably replicate that in your all-grain recipe, but you need to know
what those variations are in order to do so.

And many recipes do not use "plain, unhopped, light liquid/dry malt
extract" at all.  What if the recipe uses "dark malt extract" or
something?  As an example, a couple of weeks ago, someone asked for an
all-grain recipe for Shiner Bock, a regional brewery located in Shiner,
Texas.  I had a good clone recipe, but it happened to be based on "Old
Bavarian Munich Blend" malt extract.  It is not too hard to guess that
this is a blend of pale malt (pilsner malt?) with Munich malt, but in
what proportions?  The good news is that all it takes is a little
research in these cases ("ask and it shall be answered unto you"), and
you can probably find out.  [I was informed that Old Bavarian Munich
Blend is a 50/50 blend of pale malt and Munich malt.  Dark malt extract
is probably made from pale malt and some dark crystal malt.]  

And it gets even worse when the recipe calls for hopped extract.  Let's
just ignore this problem and maybe it will go away. <grin>  But, in
truth, these can be converted also, either by more research, or by
trial-and-error.

Converting extract recipes to all-grain is just as simple as converting
all-grain recipes to extract!  [quotable!]


Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 08:40:55 -0500 
From: Alan Monaghan <AlanM at Gardnerweb.com>
Subject: Utopias MMII


Ok, now that we have heard of this rare beer, I, living in Cincinnati Ohio
can't get it. If anyone in the 48 states hears this plea, I would love to
arrange getting a bottle for my collection (full that is) *grin*. If anyone
out there has access to and would be willing to help me with this, please
respond via private email. I would be most appreciative of any help offered.



       Be like water my friend ...
Alan G. Monaghan
   MCSE+I - Win4.0; MCSE - Win2k
    BJCP # C0389  (Recognized)
Gardner Publications, Inc.
Internet Administrator 

*  Phone	1-513-527-8867 
*  Fax		1-513-527-8801 
*  Car		1-513-520-6866 
*  Cell		1-513-378-0919  
* E-mail	AlanM at Gardnerweb.com <mailto:AlanM at Gardnerweb.com> 
5 URL		http://Bullwinkle.GardnerWeb.Com/
 




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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:25:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Conversion perversion

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager....

Jeff Storm implores:

>Anyway, I am trying to figure out how to convert extract recipes
>to all grain.  Is there any conversion method to change the lbs
>of extract to pounds of grain?

The methods are fairly straightforward, and can be handled on a
"rule of thumb basis" to get you close. To be more accurate
requires you to know a tad about the extracts involved, and a
tad about your brewery. The latter is the easier thing to
determine.

For your brewery, you need to determine your efficiency.
Effectively, this amounts to determing how many gravity points
you obtain by mashing each pound of any particular grain using
whatever your typical mash schedule happens to be. Other methods
require that you understand the evaporation rate and "kettle or
system losses"as well. And for the overall recipe, you need to
understand the typical hop utilization in your boil kettle,
characteristics of hops and specialty grains, etc. This data
will allow you to determine an "equivalent wort" to that
produced by the extract recipes.

For the extracts, it'd be great to know what they were hopped
with (if hopped) and to what level of IBUs. The grain bill, by
percentage of total, would be a vast help, too. Unfortunately,
this can be difficult to ascertain. More easily determined is
the gravity points yielded by adding one pound of the extract to
one gallon of water. This number can be used to compare to the
efficiency of your mash to determine equivalence.

This is by no means an exact science. There is natural
variability in wort production at both the extract brewer's
establishment and in your own. The same is true if you are able
to ascertain the hop data and grain bill for the extract. You'll
never "hit it" exactly.

That said, don't lose faith! I've made some pretty durned fine
brews by "converting" from extracts and capitalizing on
experience - particularly, the experience of OTHERS! Once
you've determined your extraction rate and or efficiency, you're
ready to proceed. 

Method One

1) Review the recipe for pounds of extract. DME scales at a
   higher rate than LME, typically. As a rule of thum, I'll use
   1.038 for LME and 1.045 for DME. You can measure the
   contribution by adding one pound of your extract to one
   gallon of water, too, if you prefer. Keep in mind, though,
   the DME is agorascopic - it quickly absorbs moisture from the
   air. This characteristc adds to the variability you'll
   encounter in this method, but weight is still a superior
   measure to volume in this case.

2) Multiply the number of pounds of extract by the points
   contribution (multiply the specific gravity of one pound of
   extract in one gallon of water by 1000, then subtract 1000 to
   get the contribution. If we're using LME, and our rule of
   thumb, the contribution is 1.045*1000-1000=45 If we used
   three pounds of it, the calculation required by this step is
   45*3=135)

3) Divide the resulting number by the points one pound of malt
   mashed in your system will yield (your extraction). The
   result is the number of pounds of grain you'll need. (if you
   get 35 points form a pound of grain, this is 135/35=3.9 lbs)

4) Subtract the specialty grains (except roasted barley or black
   malt) you require from this total. The result is your base
   malt amount.

Method Two

1) Review the recipe for expected OG and final volume from the
   boil kettle (ie, recipe claims to make five gallons at 1.035)

2) Multiply the expect gravity by 1000, subtract 1000, multiply
   by the sum of the expected volume plus your expected system
   losses (that left behind in the boil kettle, chillers, etc)

3) Divide the resulting number by the points one pound of malt
   mashed in your system will yield. The result is the number of
   pounds of grain you'll need.

4) Subtract the specialty grains (except roasted barley or black
   malt) you require from this total. The result is your base
   malt amount.

The fun part is finding the right balance of specialty grains to
make the wort profile, and I can offer few guidelines here. In
general, as indicated above, I don't count heavily roasted malts
into my OG calculation. The yield from these grains is typically
trivial since all the sugars are rendered to carbon. I've even
gone so far as to add the dark grains at mashout with no
appreciable degradation to the OG (but a notably less acrid
character to the resulting beer, and the color I was looking
for). Sometimes a recipe makes it easy and provides what they
"steeped". First time out with a recipe like this, I'll use the
quantity they used, deducting it from the base malt quantity. If
I don't like the results, I'll tweak in the next iteration. A
good method fro determining the grain bill is to review recipes
for similar beers already in the correct format. Did they use
honey malt? Crystal? Caramunich? How much did they use. What was
the effect (if notes are provided, or if you have sampled the
resulting beer). Many hav spent batch after batch adding a
little more (or less) of one ingredient until they understood
its impact. Seek their notes. 

Hops, gruit, etc are another game altogether, with a higher
demon of variability and the ignoble demon of vagary (few record
enough pertinent information regarding the hops). Best bet here
is to espouse a methodology for bittering (Garetz, Tinseth or
Rager) and STICK with it. Run any recipe you encounter through
your calculation to determine if their claimed (if they even
bothered to claim any) hopping rates are reasonable to the data
they've provided and to your experience. Seek out the notes of
those who have played similar "what does THIS do"
experimentation with hops. And use published recipes and
guideline to determne what characteristics you are after, and
which ho(s) provide them.

And, above all, have FUN!

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:11:11 -0800
From: "Brian Schar" <schar at vimedical.com>
Subject: Grain bed depth and Gott cooler

I am thinking of leaping headlong into all-grain brewing after ten years or
so of partial mashing.  I am leaning toward the 10-gallon Gott cooler as my
mash tun, based on a lot of comments I have read here on HBD and elsewhere,
and on discussions with other homebrewers.  However, I am rethinking this in
light of an article in the recent Zymurgy that discusses 10 ways to prevent
stuck mashes.  The author suggests that the grain bed should be no more than
4 inches deep, and in no event more than 8 inches deep.  However, in a Gott
cooler, I can't believe I could get enough grain in there to make 5 gallons
of beer (much less 10 gallons) and still maintain a grain bed under 8 inches
in depth.  Is the author correct?  Or overly conservative?  How deep is your
grain piled in the Gott cooler mash tun?  Does it really matter?  I am
curious to get some feedback on this before I commit to a cooler.

Brian Schar
Menlo Park, California



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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:09:30 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Converting Extract Recipes to All Grain


In HBD#3884, Jeff Storm asked about converting extract 
recipes to ll grain...
 
>Anyway, I am trying to figure out how to convert extract recipes 
>to all grain.  Is there any conversion method to change the lbs 
>of extract to pounds of grain?
 
Jeff, I start with these figures for extract per lb per of grain
or extract.

pale malt 30 (also pilsner malt, munich, wheat, vienna)
Crystal malts 25 -- (also roasted malts)
liquid malt extract 35
dry malt extract 45

Any grain in the original recipe can stay in the recipe.

Multiply number of lbs extract by the number above.
6.6 lbs pale ale malt extract * 35 = 231
Divide by the number above 
Looking for pale ale malt 231/30 = 7.7 lbs

This is a very simple example.

If you are replacing amber or dark extract, you need some portion
to colored malt - crystal, or some sort of roast.  The style of beer
would influence my choice here.
If you're making a stout, replace 6.6 lbs of dark extract with some
pale ale malt and some roasted barley.  6.6 * 35 =231
>From last recipes, I believe 1 lb of roasted barly is enough.
1 * 25 = 25
You need enough pale malt added to the roasted barley to make a
total of 231.  #Pale * 30 + 1*25 = 231 
subtract 25    #Pale *30 = 206
Divide by 30   #Pale = 6.87 lbs

How do you measure .87 lbs -- Convert to ounces .87 * 16 = 13.92 oz.
Close enough to 14 oz

Hopped extract - you have no idea what hops are added to that extract.
You can only guess.


Is this enough?  Is the math too hard?
If this level of math is too hard, then I suggest getting a program
like suds or promash.  Myself - I use a lotus 1-2-3 spread sheet

 - Leo Vitt
Rochester, MN



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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:01:13 -0500
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Converting Extract Recipes to All Grain

Jeff Storm asks about converting extract recipes to all-grain.  Jeff, I get
asked to include this feature in StrangeBrew all the time (although more
commonly it's to convert all-grain recipes to extract).  Here's the approach
I'd suggest:
1) Enter your extract recipe into one of the several recipe formulation
programs out there.
2) Create a new all-grain recipe in the same software.  Add the same
specialty malts (crystal, roast malts, etc), hops, and yeast as in your
source recipe.
3) Add an appropriate base malt in increments until the OG of your new
recipe is the same as the old recipe.  By appropriate, I mean if you're
brewing a British-style beer, use a British pale malt.  If you're brewing a
continental lager, use a continental pils malt.  And so on.
4) Now adjust the specialty malts so that the colour of the two recipes
matches.
5) Your mash schedule is going to depend on your base malts and the style
you're brewing.
6) Finally, check that the recipe conforms to the style you're trying to
brew (if this is important to you).

Hope this helps!

Drew Avis ~ http://www.strangebrew.ca
One thing that makes me believe in UFOs is, sometimes I lose stuff.


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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:34:25 -0500 
From: "Hall, Kevin" <Kevin_Hall at bausch.com>
Subject: re: SS Weld Finishing and Steam Sterilization (theory and practic

Beerlings (to borrow a phrase),

Mark Sedam wrote in HBD 3875:

<<What can I do to smooth out the welds and approach "sanitary welding"
status. I have a Dremel, but that's about it.>>

As The Honorable John Palmer indicated in his earlier reply, your Dremel
will eventually do the job. When that unit dies, you might want to consider
acquiring an electric die grinder. These are heavier duty (therefore a bit
more expensive) tools intended for the removal of metal in the process of
cutting and polishing molds or welds. They can also be similarly sized to
Dremels, so if you have a significant investment in cutting tools, there are
collets that you can get to fit them to the die grinder. Use of good TIG
welding techniques will reduce the chances of too much bubbling or rough
spots in the finished weld in the first place.

The grinding smooth of welds in a piping system reduces the chance for soil
to accumulate, thus allowing a foothold for the bad guys to get started. Not
to mention, the additional metal ion (iron, nickel, chromium, molybdenum,
etc.) contributions from the oxidized metal which might effect taste and
yeast growth.

He is also good in recommending the use of citric acid cleaner for
passivating the surface when complete. Be sure to remove all filings when
your done, as the work hardened stainless steel bits will rust quite quick.

Regarding the recent threads on using moist heat for sterilizing the
interior of vessels. I would be loath to recommend this unless you are
experienced in the use of steam and its proper handling. The pressure inside
of a sealed vessel can rise quickly, so quickly that you may not be able to
relieve fast enough to prevent a rupture. This is especially true when using
a direct fire, such as the jet propane burners employed by most homebrewers.
A Sanke keg, while much heavier in construction than a Corny, is not
intended or designed for pressurization through direct application of heat.
A Cornelius keg is also not recommended for use with heating, even after the
rubber bases are removed. 

Sterilization, or even 'sanitization', is not effected unless there is
sufficient level of heat exposure maintained to a sufficient period of time.
What this means is that unless the temperature reaches a minimum of 121C
(250F), you cannot claim a sterile process. Now this is predicated on a
couple things: a requirement for 12 log reduction of a heat resistant
theoretical bioburden, even heat distribution within the system, minimum
exposure time to sterilizing conditions, and a saturated moisture
environment. These are the requirements when you are making a sterile
solution for use in drugs or preparing food. 

This is why your home canning pressure cooker is effective: the inside of
the vessel reaches 20 psig, which under saturated steam conditions is
roughly 124C (255F) (that's why 20 psig is the magic number). The other
reason it is effective is that the temperature within the vessel is even; no
cold spots. Once the pressure cooker's gauge reads the proper pressure, or
the poppet valve starts popping, you would wait a period of time to fully
cook the canned goodies inside (this is the time factor).

A previous post spoke about putting a small amount of water into a Sanke and
heating with the lid on. You may not have any fermentation issues with this
technique, but you still have not sterilized the interior of the keg. The
reason is that the temperature at the top of the keg is probably not
sufficient to kill resistant microbes. 

Now there is a silver lining here. *Most* microbes encountered in the wild
are not thermophiles (heat resistant), so raising the temperature above
their inactivation temperature is sufficient. Pseudomonas aeruginosa,
typical water borne bug, is inactivated around 65C (150F), but this one is
relatively wimpy. Generally speaking, 85C (185F) should be good to get rid
of the bulk of your nasties. The thing to keep in mind here is not complete
kill, but reduction of bioburden; you are going to inoculate the wort with a
hopefully healthy large quantity of microbes in the form of yeast anyway.
That monoculture will choke off any other competing small colony.

The things to keep in mind for good equipment sanitization are *clean* and
*dry*. If your equipment is put away scrupulously clean after adequate air
drying, then the chances of contamination are significantly reduced. Prior
to use, rinse with hot water, and your good to go. (Contrary to some, there
are relatively few bugs, both yeast and microbes, in the air. The bulk of
microbial contamination comes from water. True, spores can float in the air,
but they usually do not culture while floating. They require a surface and
water to replicate.)

This got a bit rambly, sorry. Just a few thoughts to throw onto the fire.

Thank you for your patience,
Kevin Hall
Lilac Ridge (Home) Brewing Co.
Rochester, NY


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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 13:53:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Chuck Doucette <cdoucette61 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Mead

So, I put together some honey mead this week
(Tuesday). The problem is, I see no activity in the
fermenter. I used about 3lbs. of clover honey, one
teaspoon (~23cc dry) yeast nutrient and filled with
water to one gallon. Heated the mixture to 180F for 20
mins. then cooled to approx. 70F (my thermometer only
goes down to 75). I then transfered to a sanitized one
gal. glass jug, pitched the yeast (Wyeast 3184 Sweet
Mead yeast). Yes, I know, I should have used a
starter. But I had a tube of yeast intended for 5
gallons, Surely this would be enough. Well, now for
the question: What should I do with this? is it
salvageable? Should I add more nutrient? Should I just
sanitize a rod and stir? Help!

Chuck Doucette
O'Fallon, IL.



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Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 13:05:42 +1100
From: "Mark Ellis" <mark at glacierdesign.net>
Subject: More Lists

Hi All,

If any of you are looking for some variety etc, I have started up a private site
with discussion lists ( particularly in response to a lot of people claiming
that a lot of Spam is coming through from yahoo sources and other free list
sites etc ). The web site isn't functional yet but the lists are.

Anyways the list of digest lists are as follows;

Fruit Winemakers
Winemakers
Brewery
Cidermakers
Meadmakers
Cheesemakers
Smallgoods
Bakery

If interested in joining go to www.artisansrus.com for subscription link.

Cheers

Mark E. in Oz



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Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 23:15:54 -0500
From: "D. Clark" <clark at capital.net>
Subject: 3068 yeast

Hi gang,

Is anyone using the 3068 Weihenstephan yeast from Wyeast able to keep those 
delicious clove and banana flavors for more than two batches?  I have used 
a couple of smack packs now, and the flavors I am after fade with the 
second or third batch.  My water is very hard, so I boil all of my mash and 
sparge water on the woodstove for a while to precipitate out some of the 
calcium. It may not make much of a difference, but it makes me feel 
better.  I usually save a quart of slurry from the primary to restart my 
next batch.  I'll pitch a big starter and ferment at about 70 degrees, but 
I seem to lose the flavor profile I am after.  Is there another yeast that 
I could try to get a similar beer?  Will yeast nutrient in my starter 
help?  I really like this style. but I'm too darn cheap to want to spend 5 
bucks for a yeast pack every time I brew.  Maybe I could move up to 10 
gallon batches.........I better look for another fridge.

Dave Clark
Eagle Bridge, New York



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