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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: SF/Berkeley beer haunts (Matt Walker)
  Mash tuns ("Parker Dutro")
  RE: More on Oxidation ("Parker Dutro")
  Filtering brew water ("Parker Dutro")
  RE: Hop utilization ("Parker Dutro")
  beer from rice malt? ("santhosh  kumar")
  RE: Plastic bags (Bill Tobler)
  Re: hop utilization ("Larry Bristol")
  It's spelled "lose" ("R.B.")
  Re:Subject: Grassy Cascade & Liberty Ale ("Paul Erbe")
  HOPS BOPS XIX Competition (Karl)
  Re: Mash Tuns ("Larry Bristol")
  Coolers for Mashing (Nathan Kanous)
  oxidation and bottling ("Robin Griller")
  Conical Fermenter ("David Hooper")
  Plastic Bag Fermenter ("Dan Listermann")
  Conicals (Bill Wible)
  Jugulone Hop Tolerance ("Berggren, Stefan")
  Conical Fermenters ("Daniel Stedman")
  Re: wy3068 ("George de Piro")
  Light-struck Beer ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  iodophor...and chlorox (leavitdg)
  Re: fermentation bags, conicals, useful advice and Klein (Brian Lundeen)
  The mouthfeel is yellow! The flavor is tingly! The color is hoppy! ("James Sploonta")
  Boiling tap water (Arnaud VIEZ)
  Re: More Klein (Spencer W Thomas)
  Pumps ("David Hooper")


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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:19:56 -0800
From: Matt Walker <matt at suckerfish.net>
Subject: Re: SF/Berkeley beer haunts

> I am visiting San Francisco/Berkeley next month.

Check out http://www.sfbeer.org/ for a good San Francisco beer resource.
It's San Francisco only and doesn't cover any of the good East Bay, Marin,
or Peninsula breweries. See http://sfbrewpub.jasper.org/pubs.htm for
listings across the Bay Area.

Some of my local faves:

Anchor Brewing Company (http://www.anchorbrewing.com/) -- No explanation
necessary. Go there! Make sure to call well in advance for tour
reservations.

Toronado (http://www.toronado.com/) -- Looks like it's already on your list
of places to go. For those that don't know about the Toronado, it's a pub
with an outstanding collection of brews on tap and in the bottle. Check out
their website for a comprehensive list. They have an especially good
collection of Belgian Ales. I spend way too much time and money here. They
host a great Barleywine festival every year and April is Belgian Beer Month.
Grab a sausage at Rosamunde Grill next door.

Magnolia's (http://www.magnoliapub.com/) -- This is a fun little
brewpub/restaurant that usually has six or seven house brews and a few guest
brews on tap. They have a couple cask conditioned brews on the hand pump at
any given time. I'm a big fan of their Alt, Barleywine, and Tripel. Their
food is hit or miss. It's about eight blocks up Haight Street from the
Toronado (and two blocks away from my apartment :-).

Speakeasy (http://www.goodbeer.com/) -- Excellent local beer. Available most
places in San Francisco. I'm not sure if they offer brewery tours. You might
give them a call...

Suppenkuche (http://www.suppenkuche.com/) -- Great German restaurant with a
nice selection of German beers. A little pricey but well worth it for a good
night out. Give me a few glasses of Butten Alt and I'm a happy guy.

I've heard good things about 21st Amendment in San Francisco, Pacific Coast
Brewing Company in Oakland, Triple Rock in Berkeley, and Marin Brewing
Company in Marin. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of either Gordon Biersch or
Thirsty Bear in San Francisco but who knows, you might like 'em.

You should send a trip report to the HBD when you get back.

Cheers!

  -- Matt



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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:30:36 -0800
From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: Mash tuns

You could use a 2.5 gln. cooler for mashing, but you would be limited to
partial mashes only.  A typical grain bill for a 1.050 beer is between 9 and
14 lbs of malt.  This *and water occupies close to four or five gallons in
my 5.5 gallon cooler.  So you could improve the extraction of you partial
mashes and get an idea of what mashing is like by doing a partial mash in
your cooler.  Due to response size restrictions I can't describe it here,
but visit this site: www.howtobrew.com John Palmer wrote a great site for
beginner to advanced brewers, read about mashing and partial mashing and
combine the two.  If you want you can e-mail me with more questions:
ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com I'll try to help you, this mashing stuff can
be overwhelming at first.  Keep it up.
Parker



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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:36:49 -0800
From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: RE: More on Oxidation

Here, here!  Who needs more worry?  Relax, don't, have a...  Well, you know
the rest.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:48:06 -0800
From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: Filtering brew water

I built a water filter using a plastic 2 liter soda bottle, some ammo-carb
carbon aquarium-water charcoal, and some polyester stuffing.  I used to use
the same set up when I was growing flowers, and it helped my water quality a
lot, removing harmful chlorine and ammonia, while leaving the minerals in.
At least I hope.  My question is, does anyone know if this is bad way to
filter my brew water?  Would the charcoal or carbon be a problem if it's not
designed to filter houshold drinking water, or is carbon filtering all the
same?  Any thoughts on the possibility that this device will extract some
valuable nutrients from the mash water?  The water comes through the filter
clear and as far as I can tell, drinkable.  I drank a bit and it tasted
like, well, water.  Could the filtering be adding harmful agents to the
water?  C'mon, where are the chemists around here?
Thanks a lot, guys.
Parker



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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:48:51 -0800
From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: RE: Hop utilization

First, congrats on the move to 10 gal. all grain!  Fun stuff...  Onward, to
answer the question, yes.  You do achieve better utilization not only
because the grainbag is not hindering the steeping of the hops, but
full-boil all grain brewers get 3 to 4 percent better utilization than
extract brewers.  This number is assuming that each is boiling loose hops,
not bagged.  I believe the improvement in utilization is around 20% when
omitting the bag.  This is a drastic difference and it's strange that you
don't notice it.  Or did you say that your beers are coming out great and
you don't care!?  This is the ultimate test anyway, right!  Excellent to
hear of your success.  Keep on doing it.
Parker



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Date: 22 Mar 2002 11:31:27 -0000
From: "santhosh kumar" <ptsanthosh at rediffmail.com>
Subject: beer from rice malt?

Hi brwers,
I am far away from home brewing community.Home brewing
is very strange thing here in Kerala(India).We'v no
barley,malt, extract,hop,brewing yeast,but other
grains like rice and millet are common.
Importing malt extract is very expensive and not
affordable.So my option is rice .
I wish to brew with it ..let me know your experience and
knowledge for this concerning.
Santhosh


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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 06:36:31 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: Plastic bags

Jon,
    There are some brewers from the Brews and Views forum that use plastic
liners to ferment in. One person uses the 33 gallon, 1.8 mil LDPE bag  from
Paper Mart Packaging Store.
http://www.papermart.com/setpage.asp?PAGE=16-0-45

It looks like a good idea, I might try it one day.  The bags are food grade,
sanitized and ready to use, and easy clean-up.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian






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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:05:42 -0600
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: hop utilization

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 00:14:38 -0500, carlos benitez
<greenmonsterbrewing at yahoo.com> wrote:

>NOW, brewing all-grain 10 gallon batches I toss the
>hops in free and they remain in the brew kettle while
>I pump it through the chiller into the fermenter, This
>takes about 15 minutes  - does this additional
>exposure to the hops count? The beer tastes great, and
>not overly hoppy to me so I will continue to do it
>this way, but I am curious...

Yes, Carlos, this does make a difference.  Not in the sense of
increased bitterness, because alpha acids are not being polymerized
unless they are in a boiling solution.  But assuming there is any left
(see below), it does extract some extra hop flavor and aroma.  In many
commercial breweries, at the end of the boil they will set up a
whirlpool to help separate the spent hops and hot break from the clear
wort.  This typically takes 15-30 minutes.  During this time, the hops
are steeping in the hot wort, and there is indeed a benefit.  Even if
we do not use a whirlpool in our homebreweries, we can simulate this
step to our benefit when it is appropriate.

As you know, hops are typically added to the boiling wort in courses. 
The first course is boiled extensively to extract the alpha acid for
bitterness.  But this prolonged boiling has a tendency to drive out the
hop oils and resins that contribute to flavor and aroma, leaving only
the bitterness.  [Here is a controversial subject:  You boil hops
extensively, say for 60-90 minutes to maximize the bitterness.  Since
you are driving away the flavor and aroma from these hops, does it
really matter what variety of hops you use?  Is not one source of alpha
acid as good as any other?]

Later courses are added for flavoring and aroma.  I personally advocate
separating these into a course for flavoring and an even later course
for aroma.   How much of each and the variety of hops to use depends,
of course, on the style of beer being brewed.  Boiling hops for a short
time (say 10-15 minutes) does not contribute a lot of bitterness
because there is not enough time to polymerize much the alpha acid. 
But most of the flavoring and aromatic qualities of the hops will
dissolve into the wort during this time.

Unfortunately, the aromatic characteristics are most volatile, and will
be boiled away quickly.  So for aroma, I advocate a very short boil of
no more than 5 minutes.  In fact, my practice is to boil them for ZERO
minutes!  When the boil is complete, I simply drop these hops into the
kettle, cover, and let them steep before cooling the wort.  I am not
doing a whirlpool, but otherwise note how similar this is to the
commercial practices.  And if you did use a whirlpool, my assumption is
that you would get even more aroma out of these hops due to the
stirring action.

When I started this rather obvious practice, I noted a substantial
increase in hop aromas (and flavors) in my beers.  The increased aroma
is especially noticeable during fermentation, where some of it is lost.
 The aroma percolating out of the fermentation lock is almost hypnotic!
 I highly recommend you try it.  I even prefer this technique to dry
hopping (except for cask conditioned beers) because it does not pick up
a lot of the "grassiness" I seem to get from dry hops.  Just be certain
that increased hop flavor and aroma is appropriate for the style of
beer you are brewing!

Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:10:49 -0500
From: "R.B." <randyr at up.net>
Subject: It's spelled "lose"

Why is it that everyone,  and I mean everyone, spells the word lose,
loose? I see this in every e-mail forum I belong to, not just this one.
Loose is pronounced like goose, and means not fastened securely. Lose is
pronounced like booze, and means to miss from ones possession.
To keep this on topic, me like beer.





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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:13:19 -0600
From: "Paul Erbe" <Paul.Erbe at mullinconsulting.com>
Subject: Re:Subject: Grassy Cascade & Liberty Ale

Pete - In regards to last years crop of Cascades, I notice in your
recipe that you assumed an AA of 5%. The 2001 cascade crop came around
9%.  So if you had 5% cascades they where not from last years crop.

I made a simple APA with all 2001 cascades recently and did not notice a
"grassy" flavor, I did think that the bitterness that they imparted was
quite harsh.  In fairness to the hops I did use a total of 4 ounces for
a 5 gallon batch.

Danny asks about Liberty Ale, this is the beer that got me back into
brewing after a hiatus.  Liberty is about as straight forward a beer as
is out there and I find a very simple recipe comes very close.  I use a
grain bill of 88% 2-row, 10% 80L Crystal and 2% Carapils/Wheat/Flaked
Barley whatever you like to use for head retention.  Starting gravity of
1.046 -1.052.  All Cascades 35 - 40 IBU and Wyeast 1272.  A little dry
hopping does not hurt for a good strong hop aroma.  Hope you  are able
to brew and enjoy this beer as much as I do.

Regards
Paul Erbe
Mt Prospect, Illinois


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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:30:58 -0500
From: Karl <karl.r.smith at verizon.net>
Subject: HOPS BOPS XIX Competition

HOPS BOPS XIX
Best of Philly Homebrew Competition

Saturday, April 20, 2002 9:30 am
Hosted By: Homebrewers of Philadelphia and Suburbs
Location: The Academic Bistro
Drexel University
Academic Building, 6th floor
102 N 33rd St.
(NE corner of 33rd & Arch Sts)
Philadelphia, PA

This is an opportunity for you to have your homemade beer evaluated
by BJCP qualified judges.  Awards will be given for winning beers in
all categories and Best of Show.  Additionally, winners will receive
points towards "Delaware Valley Homebrewer of the Year".  Beer
evaluation forms will be mailed back to all contestants shortly after
the competition.

The Awards Banquet and Happy Hour is open to everyone immediately 
following the competition for a very reasonable small fee - $15 
members and $20 non-members.  HOPS members and their guests can take 
advantage of the "special members only" price.  Several club-brewed 
beers will be on draft, although you are welcome to bring your own.

If you have any questions or would like to judge or steward call the 
Competition Coordinator (Joe) at 215-233-6439 or e-mail at 
birman at netaxs.com

* Competition Guidelines, Forms and Info at http://www.netaxs.com/~shady/hops/

Also looking for judges, stewards, & other volunteers to make this event
happen!

Reply to me for questions, comments or bribes.

      cheers

     Joe  215-233-6439 or e-mail at birman at netaxs.com


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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:22:17 -0600
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: Mash Tuns

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 00:14:38 -0500, "Allen Godin"
<allengodin at hotmail.com> wrote:

>I'm not into mashing yet, so I don't care what the replies are to this post, 
>however, is a 2 1/2 gallon Coleman cooler usable as a small scale mash tun?
>I picked one up cheap from someone who's moving. I'm sure our family of 5 
>can find a use for it if Mash Tuns have a low end size limit. I will 
>probably start brewing with grain and extract by the end of the year as my 
>skills progress.

Well, Allen, it will not be too useful as a mash tun to make a 5 or 10
gallon batch of all-grain.  But since you are not mashing yet, who
cares?!?

You most certainly will be able to use it when you start brewing with
grain and extract.  The best way to utilize specialty grains is to
steep them in hot water, rather than just throwing them into the pot
when you boil the wort.  This is sometimes called a "mini-mash" because
the BEST technique to use emulates the steps in an all-grain mash on a
smaller scale.  You just do not have to be all that precise with the
temperatures, and you do not have to worry about converting starch to
sugar.

Put about 1.5 quarts of hot (170F) water for each pound of grain into
the cooler.  Temperature is not all that critical, but try not to go
over 175F.  (Since grain is about 1 quart per pound, you will have a
maximum capacity of about 4 pounds - more than you are likely to need.)
 Let the water stand for a few minutes so that the temperature of the
water and the cooler reach equilibrium.  Add the grains a little at a
time, stirring them in so that you get a mixture with the consistency
of oatmeal without any dry clumps of grain.  [You have just emulated
the "dough-in" step of an all-grain mash.]

Let this stand for 30 minutes or so, maybe as long as an hour if you
have the patience.  [You have just emulated the "mash" step.]  Drain
all the liquid into your boil kettle.  (Assuming the cooler has a push
button valve, try not to burn your fingers too much. <smile>  You could
replace it, but then the cooler might not be as useful for other
things.)  Anyway, there will be some grains and husks that come through
the valve.  Try not to worry about it.  But you might try to think of a
way to minimize this; all-grain brewers might use a screen at the
bottom of the cooler, sometimes called a "false bottom".

Close the valve and add enough hot water (about 170F) to cover the
grains.  Add the water gently, trying not to stir things up too much
(maybe use a garden sprinkler).  Let this stand a moment or two, and
then drain into your kettle again.  Repeat this a few times until the
liquid draining is nothing but water, you get tired of it, or you start
worrying about the amount of liquid you are going to boil; remember to
take into account the volume of the extract!  [You have just emulated a
"sparge".]  Dump the grains out of the cooler and discard them.  Wash
the cooler.  [You have just emulated the favorite step of most brewers,
called the "clean-up".]

Use a strainer to remove any grains and husks (that might still bother
you) from your kettle.  Stir in your extract.  Boil and continue like
normal.  When the beer is ready, send me a bottle, or (even better!)
send me air fare so I can personally come and help you evaluate your
beer.

>I hope whoever replies will say something useful for everyone who's just 
>beginning.

Me, too.  I hope this helps a little!


Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:45:52 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Coolers for Mashing

Allen Godin asks "is a 2 1/2 gallon Coleman cooler usable as a small scale 
mash tun?"

Well.......why not?  I picked up a small (?1 gallon) cooler at a surplus 
store for $0.25.  I won a sure screen at a brewing competition.  Now I've 
got a small scale mash tun.  It works pretty good for 1 gallon batches.  If 
I've got the hankering to brew a beer but no time for a full batch, I can 
whip up a small batch on the stovetop.  Last one was a rauchbier and it 
turned out to be one of those "I wish I'd made 5 gallons of this" 
beers.  I"m scaling the recipe up to brew next weekend.  ;^)

Yes, small coolers can work just fine for small mash tuns.  You may have to 
make some minor adjustments because of differences in size (this baby 
lauters VERY fast) but it works just fine for small batches.  Hope this helps.

nathan in madison, wi



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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:01:56 -0500
From: "Robin Griller" <robin_g at ica.net>
Subject: oxidation and bottling

Hi all,

Re Phil's comments on oxidation, I wonder if what he said about bottled
homebrew is necessarily accurate. This is just my own experience, but
here's what I've noticed over the last few years: my bottled beer is very,
very stable. I've found bottles hidden in the back of a cupboard after over
3 years (an old ale 1.066 og) and they've had no oxidation. I've had lower
gravity beers stored at room temperatures for up one and a half years with
no oxidation or staling. ON the other hand, when I first started kegging, I
had no refrigeration for the kegs and would cool the beer in water. This
meant that the beer was cooled and then warmed then cooled.....The  beer in
those kegs was far less stable than the bottled homebrew using, otherwise,
exactly the same techniques (including natural carbonation both in bottle
and keg). Now, I don't know that it had anything to do with oxidation, but
an interesting contrast? In any case, it seems possible that beer stability
may in part relate to constancy of conditions?

Robin



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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:06:59 -0800
From: "David Hooper" <DHooper at kc.rr.com>
Subject: Conical Fermenter

I make lagers and ales, and all my ales are made in the conical. I'd rather
clean my plastic MiniBrew any day than the carboy. What brought about me to
buying a conical was not the ease of use, but not having to pick up a
carboy. The older you get, the more you strain, and the slower you move. I
usually have my son, or someone else, pick up my carboys when making lager,
but I can usually handle the conical because I don't have to move it.
If you have physical limitations, a conical can help.
David Hooper
DHooper at kc.rr.com
http://pages.prodigy.net/david_hooper



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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:30:30 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Plastic Bag Fermenter

<Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:38:52 -0800
<From: "Jon & Megan Sandlin" <sandlin at bendcable.com>
<Subject: Plastic bags

<I would like to use plastic bags to line containers for fermentation.  I
<imagine that the bags would have to be food grade (of course) and pretty
<durable.  Has anybody tried this before?  Where do I source the bags?

The "Hair of the Frog" brewery in Grand Rapids does this and locally a few
years ago a Australian Rules Football club used this method of fermentation
for a special brew for a party.   The beauty of this method is sanitization
is easy and there is no clean up.  Further yeast can be harvested simply by
sanitizing the bag and slitting it over the next batch.

US Plastics has bags for 55 gallon barrels and 5 gallon buckets.


 Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at http://www.listermann.com

Take a look at the anti-telemarketer forum.  It is my new hobby!




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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:47:44 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Conicals

Hey guys,

I wasn't trying to offend anyone with my description/evaluation
of conical fermenters.  I know there's alot of guys out there
using them.

I personally don't own or use one, because I've been put off mainly
by the cost.  And since I don't have one, most of what I "know"
about them is heresay from other brewers, like the part about them
being hard to clean.  I was always told that, but again, I have no
first hand knowledge.  If all you guys say its not true, then I
guess it's not true.

The big question remaining that nobody answered is whether you
can bottle (or keg) directly from a conical, and how difficult
that is, or what the procedure is.

Thanks, Wayne, for that link to the cheap stainless tanks, I will
look into that.  And thanks to the guys who wrote about the cream
seperators. I will look at those as well.

This whole thing actually began as a discussion of 10 gallon
cornies.  See what happens?

Bill
- --------------------------
Brew By You    
3504 Cottman Ave.
Philadelphia, PA 19149
215-335-BREW (PA)
215-335-0712 (Fax)
www.brewbyyou.net
- ---------------------------




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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:57:16 -0600
From: "Berggren, Stefan" <stefan_berggren at trekbike.com>
Subject: Jugulone Hop Tolerance

Does anyone know if hop rhizomes are jugulone tolerant (ie...Black walnut
tolerant)  I have some black walnuts in the back, but would like to grow
some hop vines.  Please let me know if anyone else has had any experience
with walnut trees and hops....

Cheers, 

Stefan  

I hate a drinking companion with a memory. --Martial, Roman epigrammist (1st
century A.D.)

 

 




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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:30:56 -0600
From: "Daniel Stedman" <playflatball at hotmail.com>
Subject: Conical Fermenters

Hi - while conical's look cool (just like the big boys!), I've never 
understood why people spend all of that cash for so much more trouble. I 
ferment my 10 gallon batches in a 15.5 gallon keg that I also use for my hot 
liquor tank. The biggest advantage to this is that just before knock out I 
can boil a gallon of water with my counterflow chiller and other tubing 
inside of it for 15 minutes and be guaranteed bug-free for transfer & 
fermentation. Lets see you do that with your conical! After all, who wants 
to whip up 12.2 gallons of sanitizer every time you brew? I don't! I prefer 
to use chemicals sparingly. I suppose you could just take a spray bottle of 
StarSan and spray the inside for a couple of minutes, but it's still pretty 
risky whereas steam heat is 100% effective - even in nooks and crannys.

Other benefits? Cleaning is a snap, no valves to worry about, top-cropping 
yeast is a breeze, and I've already got a temperature guage built in. Plus, 
I've got nice big handles for moving it around and it fits perfectly in my 
fridge.

I love gadgets, but conicals don't make much sense to me. I'm not going to 
spend money to make my brew day longer, no matter how shiny the gadget is.

Dan in Minnetonka



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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:38:58 -0500
From: "George de Piro" <george at evansale.com>
Subject: Re: wy3068

Hi all (and especially Steve),

I should try to read the HBD more.  It was much easier to do when I used
company time in my pre-commercial brewing days!  On to the discussion:

AJ wrote:

> >I'm not much of a geneticist but the POF gene which lends the clove
> >flavor is heterozygotic (is that the right term?) I.E. its a single gene
> > - not a pair) and thus is lost is succesive uses.

Steve then wrote:

> I'm not prepared to challenge AJs assertion - but something sounds wrong
> about it.   If the decarboxylating POF gene was lost so fast and
completely
> it would almost certainly be history.

Back to me:

A geneticist would be useful at this point.  Steve's confusion about AJ's
statement seems reasonable, though:  how long would any yeast strain keep
this trait if the gene could be so easily lost?

It is my understanding that most (if not all) brewing yeasts are polyploidy,
meaning that they have more than one copy of each chromosome.  This makes it
more difficult to understand how Weizen strains would only have one copy of
the clove gene.

As for practical experience with Weizenbier, I have this to say:

I have used both Wyeast 3068 and The "Die Weisse" strain given to me by Herr
Hangoffer.  Both can produce very nice beers but I prefer the accentuated
clove of the "DW" strain and have used it exclusively at the brewpub.  Until
a few months ago I would never repitch the yeast for more than 2 batches,
for no good reason other than fear of flavor shifts (which in a commercial
setting can be a pretty good reason).

Last year I noticed that the rate of fermentation improved in the second
pitching of the yeast with no noted flavor changes, so I repitched the yeast
a third time.  This fermentation was also exceptional, so I stuck with it.
This went on for around 6 batches over 9 months, at which time I did note
slightly higher than usual astringency in the resulting beer and dumped the
yeast.

I have to store my Weizen yeast for several weeks (on ice) between batches,
and it does lose some viability, so I feed it before each brew.  The clove
character was good in each batch, and fermentations were strong.  I wish I
had the resources to quantitatively assay 4VG, but my nose is all we've got.

I have kept the yeast refrigerated on slant since I received it in 1998, and
still find that it pumps out plenty of 4VG.  I would think that the
relatively warm environment of the slant would allow for mutations to
eliminate the POF gene if it was so easily done.

Steve then wrote:

> Before plating out your yeast and regrowing a slurry be sure to check that
> your wort has enough ferulic acid precursor to 4VG to give the clovey
> flavor.  Raw grains have more ferulic than malt, and wheat has much more
> than barley.  An enzyme active around 43C releases ferulic from malt - so
a
> rest may improve the 4VG level dramatically.

I used to laboriously rest my Weizen mashes at 43C in the hopes of producing
a clovier beer, but when I lazily mashed in at 145F (63C) and got the same
result I abandoned the low-temp rest.  Head retention improved, too!

I guess I haven't really shed any new light on this issue, but I have
pointed out that I have obtained good, reasonably consistent results without
going back to a cryogenically preserved culture several times per year.  Of
course, your mileage will vary and unless you've tasted my beer, you have no
reason to trust anything I say!

Have fun!

George de Piro

C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
(518)447-9000
www.EvansAle.com






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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:06:04 -0800
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: Light-struck Beer

Hi,
  Does anyone know what type of light causes skunkiness in beer?  Is it all
light?  Just incandescent, or flourecent?  Would the red bulbs used in
photographic dark rooms have the same affect?
Thanks,
Nils Hedglin
Sacramento, CA


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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:54:51 -0500 (EST)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: iodophor...and chlorox

A few weeks back someone mentionned something about not mixing iodophor
and chlorox.  I know that bleach and ammonia is toxic...but I had not
heard about iodophor and bleach.  

I ask in that I often dump the bleach from a carboy into a 'shop sink'
and then later, after bottlewashing...dump the iodophor mixture into
the same sink.  Is there a problem with this?

 ..Darrell
[545.7, 72.3 Rennerian, apparently]


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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:31:11 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: fermentation bags, conicals, useful advice and Klein

Jon Sandlin writes:

> I would like to use plastic bags to line containers for
> fermentation.  I imagine that the bags would have to be food 
> grade (of course) and pretty durable.  Has anybody tried this 
> before?  Where do I source the bags? Thanks in advance for your help.

Paddock Wood sells just what you are looking for. Go to www.paddockwood.com
in the equipment section. I also find them useful for bulk grain storage. I
use them to line a probably non-food grade garbage bag, which sits inside my
trash containers. This allows me to seal up the bags with little air
exposure, and also to store more than one type of grain in the bins when the
volume of each gets low enough. I don't trust the fermentation bag to hold
the weight of the grain by itself, that's why I double bag it in a hefty
trash bag.

Larry Bristol says:

> Also true, but I fail to understand why a conical fermenter
> offers any more difficulty in this regard than does any other 
> type of fermenter. 
> Most brewers ferment at room temperature, and a conical will 
> fit into any room that one of us has.

This might be true, but that doesn't make it right. I'm of the opinion that
brewers who are serious about improving their beers will spend their money
on temperature control before buying a conical. When basement ambient is
suitable I will use it, but most of the time, I will use one of my two
freezers with a controller to get the fermentation temperature I desire. If
you are using a fridge or freezer, I would think that would introduce some
logistical problems in using these fermenters, especially with a chest
freezer.

Allen Godin writes:
 
> I'm not into mashing yet, so I don't care what the replies
> are to this post, <snip> 
> I hope whoever replies will say something useful for everyone 
> who's just 
> beginning.

Sorry, Allen, useful advice is just not tolerated in this forum. You
probably meant to subscribe to the Useful Homebrewers Digest, which is run
by Pat's evil twin brother, Skippy. BTW, if you didn't care about the
replies, why did you even ask?

Finally, to James Sploonta:

> C'mon! Where are all of you?! Don't let SA scare you off!
> Klein is an idiot! 

Klein makes money off of his calendar. If that's being an idiot, then I'm
clearly wasting my time just being a moron. ;-)

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:10:56 -0500
From: "James Sploonta" <biere_god at hotmail.com>
Subject: The mouthfeel is yellow! The flavor is tingly! The color is hoppy!

More Kleininess: "This ale's hardnosed mouthfeel delivers its flavor
directly and unabashedly, spreading a layer of hops in its wake." That
from 3/21 "Bridgeport Blue Heron Ale". A review of this material could
aptly read "Klein's descriptive prowess in things beery leaves a layer of
warm, organic fertilizer in its wake."

How, exactly, does "A pleasant tasting beer" demostrate "integrity"? HOW?!

I'll admit that every once in a while Klein manages to express a correctly 
associated aspect of the ale he is "reviewing" in a most poetic, targeted 
nature. However, that is a rare occurrence. Most of the time he is 
associating disparate sensations with components of beer presentation and 
flavor. Hardly a move to bring the "whimsical language of wine judging" (I 
think I got that right) to beer judging. It is only one man's attempt to 
gleen some of the cashflow from the brewing and beer appreciation market.

I quietly read as SA jumped to this gniff-gnaw's defense, obviously
without any more evidence than what was presented here, and I then quietly
listened by as others folks were heartenned by SA's comments and chimed in
as well. I then BOUGHT (yes, I donated money to the Cause of Klein - for
for research purposes only, and at 50% off, since it's already March.) the
calendar. This is DRIVEL, friends. MUDA! Waste!

Jimmy Sploonta
Somewhere between here and there.



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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:30:36 +0100
From: Arnaud VIEZ <arnaud at viez.net>
Subject: Boiling tap water

Hello fellow brewers,

I have a question about water treatment :

I would like to know if there is a way to calculate the new amounts of
salts (especially calcium and bicarbonates) resulting of a one-hour boil
of my tap water.
Also, when I add gypsum or Epsom salts or CaCl3, is it better to add
them before or after the boil (in order to lower the pH) ?

My tap water :
Ca : 90.2
Mg : 3.3
Na : 13.1
SO4 : 27
Cl : 24
HCO3 : 231.8

Thank you in advance,
Arnaud.





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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:39:32 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: More Klein 

I was using this one from last December as a bookmark:

Worthington White Shield

"ever-changing and delectable morsel"
"caramel-cocoa mouthfeel"
"splendiferous flavor"
"chocolate character rides confidently atop  .. caramel sweetness"
"light caramel aroma tickles the nose with hints of dried fruit"
"brief hint of peach ... comes and goes at mid-bottle"

=S


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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:04:27 -0800
From: "David Hooper" <DHooper at kc.rr.com>
Subject: Pumps

I am looking for a pump to pump liquid from one carboy to the other.  Bill
Frazier gave me the name of a pump from Barnant, but I would like to know
what other people have used and where they bought them.  I wanted to go to
Moving Brews, but that doesn't seem possible right now.

Thanks


David Hooper
DHooper at kc.rr.com
http://pages.prodigy.net/david_hooper



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