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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Chicago Cup Challenge ("Jerry Sadowski")
  Plastic bags ("Jon & Megan Sandlin")
  RE: 10 gallon cornie conversion to a conical fermenter ("Wayne Holder")
  Tropical Hops ("Graham L Sanders")
  Re: pacific northwest brewpubs (Matt Walker)
  The Vegemite Colony ("Phil Yates")
  RE: False bottom height ("Lou King")
  Any brave soles out there? ("Neitzke, Arnold")
  10 Gal. Cornie Conical Conversion (Richard Foote)
  Grassy Cascade ("Peter Fantasia")
  Beer Donuts ("Houseman, David L")
  Conical fermenters ("Jim Bermingham")
  Re: Conical 10 Gallon was Re:10 gallon cornies ("Larry Bristol")
  re:Pre Fermentation and other oxidations. ("Dr. Pivo")
  Cleaning a conical ("Jim Bermingham")
  hop utilization (carlos benitez)
  Re: pacific northwest brewpubs (Demonick)
  Carbonation impact on gravity reading... ("J. Todd Larson")
  Re:10 galon cornies - conicals ("Kurt Schweter")
  Update on MCAB4 -- Hotels, etc. (Paul Shick)
  Philadelphia brewpubs (Suds2468)
  SF/Berkeley beer haunts ("John Biggins")
  soda bottle threads ("Michael O'Donnell")
  Mash Tuns ("Allen Godin")
  Conical 10 Gallon was Re:10 gallon cornies ("badger")
  conical fermenters (carlos benitez)
  More On Oxidation ("Phil Yates")
  Liberty Ale (Danny Breidenbach)
  Sour Brown Ale ("David Craft")
  More Klein ("James Sploonta")


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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:21:28 -0600
From: "Jerry Sadowski" <jsadow1 at msn.com>
Subject: Chicago Cup Challenge

It's that time of year again.  The Brewers Of South Suburbia (B.O.S.S.) is 
hosting the Eleventh Annual Chicago Cup Challenge Homebrew Contest, 
Saturday, April 13, 2002.  The competition features the Chicago Cup which is 
awarded to the homebrew club collecting the most points.  Prizes and ribbons 
are awarded in every BJCP category and to Best Of Show winners for Beers and 
non-Beers.  This is a leg of the Midwest Homebrewer of the Year Contest.
Entries are being accepted March 25 to April 5.  The competition will be 
held at Jakes BBQ in Blue Island, IL.  Visit our NEW website at 
http://www.uswebaccess.net/boss/ for forms and rules.
We are in need of judges.  This is a great way to dust off your palate for 
the nationals which are two weeks later.  Judge coordinator is John Dalton, 
JDalton at enteract.com.
The contest organizer and club president can be reached at 
DavidPersenaire at aol.com.  Thanks in advance.



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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:38:52 -0800
From: "Jon & Megan Sandlin" <sandlin at bendcable.com>
Subject: Plastic bags

I would like to use plastic bags to line containers for fermentation.  I
imagine that the bags would have to be food grade (of course) and pretty
durable.  Has anybody tried this before?  Where do I source the bags?
Thanks in advance for your help.

Jon Sandlin
Bend, Oregon




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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:59:35 -0800
From: "Wayne Holder" <zymie at charter.net>
Subject: RE: 10 gallon cornie conversion to a conical fermenter 

Why would anyone go through the hassle of converting a corny keg to a
conical fermenter when you can buy a 12.2 gallon stainless hopper from TMS
(http://www.toledometalspinning.com) for $87?

I LOVE my TMS conical, which I believe, is the same cone as the B3 or
Fermenator conicals. The only disadvantage so far is that I need a couple
more.

They don't HAVE to be expensive, but I know a lot of folks that would like
to keep them that way.

Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
http://www.zymico.com



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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:32:17 +1000
From: "Graham L Sanders" <craftbrewer at bigpond.com>
Subject: Tropical Hops

G'day All

Now that I finally managed to confine Mr Yates to the highlands 
permanently, and he gets about actually learning about how to 
brew, I have received nothing from support from the rest of Aus 
from saving them from unexpected visits from that madman. I tried 
to tell Phil about oxygen and his wort, but it went right over his 
head. Every time I talked about it as a gas, he kept saying 
"oh I know about gas, its what I do in bed to avoid Jill". You lot 
are going to have a hard time ed-u-mar-kating him. Looney 
central is alive and well now he has to stay home.

But anyway the Guru of the North has been summoned into action.

>From: "santhosh  kumar" <ptsanthosh at rediffmail.com>
>Subject: hop plant in hot cliamte
>
>Hi All,
>I wish to planting some hop rhizomes in my back yard.
>But we'v no winter,no snow here in South India.
>Any one can tell what'l happen for my hop plant
>without cold climate?

Now Santhosh you should realise that most in the USA would have 
no idea, and that includes things about growing hops in the tropics, 
with the exception of a bloke called Jeff Renner. For your 
information, I am based in Tropical Queensland which is in your 
neck of the world. On a side issue, if you need a forum that is 
more related to your local issues go to

www.craftbrewer.org 

Sigh up for the discussion group on that website. Its a discussion 
group for people on our side of the world, with members from 
South Africa, Australia and New Zealand, but also tropical brewers, 
and you fit the bill in both areas. 

Anyway I have been growing hops in the tropics now for a year. 
First myth to shatter.
1. They do not work like garlic and protect you from SWMBO. 
damn!!!! She is still about.
2. Hops will grow exceptional well in the tropics, 
in fact all year round
3. They do flower, But you will find they flowers poorly and the 
size is also smaller
4. They flower a number of times in a year

If you decide to grow the hops, most will tell you 2 plants is all you 
need to supply an average brewer. In the tropics you will also get 
hops, but I would recommend about 6 plants to get a good number 
of hop flowers. 

And of course I have new type of hop growing. In the tradition 
of naming hops, I grow a Thuringowa Ringwood.

Shout
Graham Sanders

Oh - I always find it strange how tourists and visitors keep dying up 
here, but the locals keep coming away with stories of near misses. 
So far this week we have had a couple of large crocs hanging 
arround boat ramps, one croc ramming a boat trying to flip out the 
guy, and a crabber who had an oar snapped in two, when he was 
getting one of his pots. 

I recon its because they are picky. I bet we are just plain too tough, 
and they prefer more tender, softer game.


 



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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:44:44 -0800
From: Matt Walker <matt at suckerfish.net>
Subject: Re: pacific northwest brewpubs

My girlfriend and I drove from San Francisco to Vancouver and back again
last summer hitting brewpubs in Portland and Seattle along the way. It was a
fun trip -- you'll have a great time. Steamworks Brew Pub
(http://www.steamworks.com/) in Vancouver, Pike Pub & Brewery
(http://www.pikebrewing.com/) in Seattle, and Bridgeport
(http://www.firkin.com/) in Portland are all worthwhile stops. If you're on
the Oregon Coast, check out Pelican Pub & Brewery
(http://www.pelicanbrewery.com/) in Pacific City and Rogue
(http://www.rogue.com/) in Newport. Also, I've heard good things about
Elysian and Redhook in Seattle and Hair of the Dog and any of the McMenamins
in Portland.

Check out the Northwest Brewpage at http://www.nwbrewpage.com/ for more
info.

Cheers!

  -- Matt



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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 19:17:04 +1100
From: "Phil Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject:  The Vegemite Colony

I have a question which Steve Alexander might like to answer, or any one
else for that matter. Does yeast autolysis require the presence of free
oxygen? I'm pretty sure the answer would be no.

I decided today to open my little ten litre party keg, realising that it
hadn't been used for several months. The last time I had a brew in this keg,
I took it to a friend's party and got into all sorts of strife. The men folk
loved the contents and drank it dry. I was later berated for ruining the
party. I recall driving to the party with a full keg. The ride home was
under the command of Jill who manned the wheel of the ute whilst I flopped
around in the back with the empty keg. But please let's forget about this
little indiscretion!

I always keep my empty kegs under CO2 pressure awaiting their next fill (of
course I thoroughly clean and sanitise them just prior to their refill).
Lifting the top off my little keg today filled the brewhouse with the
appalling smell of vegemite. Down in the bottom was a dark sludge of yeast
remains and obvious to me were the signs of cannibalism.

If you don't know what the hell I'm talking about, buy yourself a jar of
vegemite and have a good whiff. In the new dictionary of beer descriptions,
I want to be remembered for describing yeast autolysis as being just that. I
also want Ray Kruse remembered for his contribution to the description of
light struck beer. I'll never forget his bottle of skunk oil which to this
day (some two years later) still sits on a far post stinking like it did the
day it arrived.

Now you can't blame our yeast friends for their activity. Locked away from
the rest of the world they are bound to get fed up and start eating each
other.Imagine having to suffer such atrocities amidst the stench of
vegemite!!!

It certainly seems to happen without the presence of oxygen.

God Bless America
And God Save The Queen
I hope he's got time to save Australia.

Cheers
Phil










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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 03:39:32 -0500
From: "Lou King" <lking at pobox.com>
Subject: RE: False bottom height

John Schnupp asks about false bottom height, and what is too small a
volume underneath the false bottom.

Beer, Beer and More Beer (NAYYY) has a false bottom, the design of which
puts the top of the false bottom below the outlet, and minimizes the
volume underneath through use of a convex shape of the screen itself.
The wort flows up through the middle of the unit.  See
http://www.morebeer.com/index.html?page=detail.php3&pid=AG405 (you may
have to paste this link together).  If I were to guess, I'd say the
middle of this false bottom is about 3/4 to 1 inch over the bottom of
the cooler.

I don't think this answers his question exactly, but maybe it'll give
him some ideas.

I have used this false bottom for several all grain batches, and I
haven't had any problems so far, nor do I think I'm wasting much wort
underneath.

Lou King
Ijamsville, MD



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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 06:15:47 -0500
From: "Neitzke, Arnold" <Arnold.Neitzke at fanucrobotics.com>
Subject: Any brave soles out there?

Stainless steel conical fermenter for $200.00?

Maybe, go to www.lehmans.com and search for "Old-time cream separator"  It
even has a window in the cone to view the contents.  Hey, it's good enough
for milk, it's gota be good enough for beer, right?

I am not going to go out and get one but I figured that someone on this list
may be interested in giving it a try and report back.

Arnold Neitzke
Brighton MI


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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:31:26 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: 10 Gal. Cornie Conical Conversion

Gene Collins writes:

>Does anyone have any drawings for making the cone section and is 45 degrees
>still the accepted "perfect angle"?

All sorts of pieces/parts are available off the shelf.  Go here
http://toledometalspinning.com and click on "TMS Products".  One of these
(forget which one) is a dead ringer for the BB & MB conical.  They call 'em
"conical hoppers", but we know better.

The standard is 60 degrees.

Hope this helps.


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA 






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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:40:02 -0500
From: "Peter Fantasia" <fantasiapeter at hotmail.com>
Subject: Grassy Cascade

Hi All,

Has anyone had a problem with this year's crop of cascade? I have twenty
gallons of beer with this overpowering grassy taste that is just awful. One
a Celebration Ale clone and one a Liberty Ale clone. The hops were pellets
from LD Carlson. They were both dry hopped and had reached final gravity
before bottling yet they both seem to be slightly overcarbonated. Can an
infection give a grassy taste? Here's the celebration recipe:

CELEBRATION ALE

Ingredients for 11 gal.

20.5 pounds American 2-row
1 pound Belgian Caravienne
1 pound Belgian Caramunich
 .75 pound German Light Munich
 .25 pound Black Patent Malt
 .25 pound 120L crystal


1.5 ounces Centennial (9.1 AA%) 60 min

 1.25 ounce Centennial (9.1 AA%) 30 min

2 ounces Cascade (5 AA%) 5 min

1 ounce Cascade (5 AA%) knockoff

1 ounce cascade dry hopped in each secondary

 Yeast :  wyeast american ale 1056

The only common thing between both beers was the hops.

Pete
NJ


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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 09:06:16 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Beer Donuts

This combines two of my favorite foods (eh...sins).  

If you want to try a beer donut recipe:
http://www.beercook.com/recipes/beerdonuts.htm

Dave Houseman



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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:32:45 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Conical fermenters

Bill Wible writes of conical fermenters: "a conical fermenter is just a
really cool toy, and almost
every brewer I know wants one, or thinks they do"  Yes, yes they certainly
are cool and like most of our brewing equipment they are toys.  I have a
conical fermenter and love it.  
In 1961 when I first started brewing I used a "Butter Churn" as a fermenter.
 I also used a # 2 Dixon Ticonderoga to write with, a slide rule to
calculate with, and my family had a 3 party phone line.  Back then if there
had been such things as Lap Tops, PC's, Palm Pilots, hand held calculators,
and mobile phones they would have been really cool toys.  Now people who
have them, think they couldn't do without them.  I for one never, never want
to go back to the old churn.  I have never seen anything wrong with a grown
man having toys if he wants and can afford them.
Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX


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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:22:41 -0600
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: Conical 10 Gallon was Re:10 gallon cornies

On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:16:58 -0500, Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
wrote:

>Yeah, this probably will open a can of worms.

<snicker>  Bill makes an excellent analysis of the relative advantages
and disadvantages of conical fermenters.  I happen to think he has
understated the advantages and overemphasized the disadvantages.

>...<snip>...
>One is that due to the high cost of a conical, most people who have them 
>only have one.  If it's tied up for 3 weeks at a time (for ale) and you only 
>have one, you can't brew another batch.  If you're going to tie it up with a 
>lager, that might take 8 - 10 weeks.  Same problem the big boys have - 
>planning and allocating tank space.

True enough.  To me, however, one of the fun aspects of using a conical
is that I have to plan my brews a little more carefully.  So is this
really a disadvantage?  I guess it depends on your perspective.

But more importantly, I disagree with the basic premise of this
supposed disadvantage.  Possession of a conical fermenter does not
preclude you from following the same procedures you would use without
one.  If the conical is tied up and you want to make another brew,
simply move the beer into carboys for secondary fermentation, just like
you would move it from a primary to a secondary fermenter.  After it is
moved, you loose the convenience of being able to dump yeast out of the
bottom, but frankly this is not something that you do a lot as the beer
reaches full attenuation.  This means you could brew every 3-4 days if
necessary; you would run out of carboys long before you ran out of
conical fermenter (note: singular).

>Another problem is controlling the fermentation temperature.
>Glycol units can be purchased or added on, but they're not cheap.
>And a 10 gallon conical likely won't fit in any fridge that one of us has.

Also true, but I fail to understand why a conical fermenter offers any
more difficulty in this regard than does any other type of fermenter. 
Most brewers ferment at room temperature, and a conical will fit into
any room that one of us has.

Obviously, this would be more of a concern when making lagers.  But I
will go back to the "only have one of them" disadvantage and ask how
many brewing fridges does the typical homebrewer have, and just how
many 10 gallon batches can be lagered at the same time?  It appears to
me that fridge capacity is as much of a problem as would be the lack of
multiple conical fermenters.

>They're also difficult to clean.

I have to take extreme exception to this!  A s/s conical is much easier
to clean than the plastic bucket or glass carboy that is in common use.
 It is easier to clean than a corney.  And it is FAR easier to clean
than a fridge!

>Personally, I think the disadvantages of conical fermenters outweigh the
>advantages, but a conical fermenter is just a really cool toy, and almost
>every brewer I know wants one, or thinks they do. It's the way the big boys
>do it, and it's something most of us think we'd like to have.

I will give up my conical when they pry my cold dead fingers from the
bottom dump.  :-)

When the statement was made that this would "open up a can of worms," I
expected the thread to go along the lines of why the shape of a conical
fermenter is superior to a fermentation vessel with straight sides.  I
do not have any new scientific data to offer in this regard, and I
suspect this subject has been argued over and over in this and other
forums.  Perhaps we can avoid this tedious debate.  It makes me sorry I
even brought this topic up.  <grin>




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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:19:49 +0100
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: re:Pre Fermentation and other oxidations.

Phil Yates asks an interesting question:


> But enough of this, I have another question. We have argued in here to the
> death about whether or not HSA existed, or more to the point, whether or not
> it mattered. I'm sure we all agree that oxidization of our beer post
> fermentation is a serious no no. But I'm curious about this point:
>  Most of us go out of our way to get as much oxygen as we can into our wort
> just prior to dumping in our yeast. What happens if we don't dump in our
> yeast, or not immediately?
> What happens if we run our wort from the kettle, heavily aerate it and put
> it in a sealed container free from infection? What happens if we leave it
> there for a good month before throwing in our yeast?
>
You are on to the whole subject of "Cold Side Airation", which also has
the same acronym as "Cub Scouts of America".

So in an attempt to earn my merit badge, I'll forward some opinions.

As stated, the traditional view is: "at pitching time" is the only time
your stuff really ever should see oxygen.

The popular way today is to blast with pure oxygen to an optimal 8ppm
(which curiously is just about what you can squeeze in at atmospheric
conditions.... is this real science or just "dong what you can do" and
then justifying it?)

Now, when the wort is cold it will be able to dissolve these large
ammounts, and if the yeast is not there to take it up, it will certainly
react with "something"... hence "oxidation".

It turns out that even though the yeast will readily gobble every speck
in sight within about half an hour of exposure.... even within the life
of the yeast you are causing an "oxidation" overload, and far from every
molecule of that gas goes directly towards "cell wall building" as one
would like to believe... but in fact in the yeast's very own metabolism
can be made into such lovely violently reacting characters as my old
friend hydrogen peroxide.

So this is a BIG question in my mind.... Is this the optimal way to
"feed" oxygen.  There is some real live work that has shown that
"staling" of the beer, increases with increasing additional oxygen loads
in the beginning.

Steve Alexander suggests adding the big "O" at four hours.  This is one
of many suggestions.  Some would say at 24 hours, since that is the time
of maximal "budding" of the yeasts (they look like little Mickey Mouses
then) and they then can best use the stuff for growth instead of just
shuttleing it off into a bunch of other oxidation reactions.

My suggestion is (as always) to play with it.

I've found that what works well for me, is to wait until it is just
coming onto "white krauzen"... that is... little cottony balls of foam
are spreading on the surface, but have not covered it.

If you've got one of those (and of course in our varying setups this
will hardly be at a time that "I" can tell you, be it 4 or 24...... just
watch the stuff).   If you then rack off half of that stuff to another
fermenter, doing a lot of splashing to give it a new feed ("dropping" is
the term, and does not refer to midnight "acid" rides on the posty bike,
or Marilyn fondleing in the bog).... and let it ferment side by side
with the remaining unmolested half, I think you'll soon figure out
what's going on....

 ... and probably a lot faster than me or anyone else advising or
prophesising on it.

As to wort getting "oxidised".....  you bet. Oxidation is the ultimate
death of every beer that gets to sit around long enough, and air, heat,
and agitation are things that will speed it on it's way.

"anti-oxidants" is a popular term these days (reducing agents is not a
bad one either), and in your struggle to keep your beer fresh there is
really only a couple of things on your side.  One is to avoid oxidation
(don't add too much oxygen at the wrong time, don't store your kegs in
the oven, and don't dance the "shimmy" with them by the pool table),
another is the sulphur content in the beer (and I don't expect you'll be
manipulating that too much), and lastly... a most wonderful
"anti-oxidant" indeed..... living yeast.

As to: "Can yeast counteract (reduce) oxidation products that have
already formed?" (as in your suspected "stale" wort).

I'd guess "to a certain degree".  I base this on "krauzening"
experience.   While adding a "krauzen" is the best way I know to
maintain a healthy beer, or avoid "oxidation", I've not yet seen it be
able to completely fix one that is patently stale (oxidised).It will
GROSSLY improve it, but that nasty corner of "old barrell" always still
seems to exist if you hunt hard enough.

Dr. Pivo



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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:51:50 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Cleaning a conical

I forgot to mention the ease of cleaning a conical.  Bill stated that they
were also difficult to clean.  This is far from the truth.  They are very
easy to clean.  Much easier than anything I have ever fermented in.  You can
almost crawl into one of these things.  You do have to take the valves off
for a good cleaning, but this takes only a simple wrench to do this trick.
Jim, Loving His Toy, Bermingham
Millsap, TX


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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:06:48 -0800 (PST)
From: carlos benitez <greenmonsterbrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: hop utilization

Hi All,

   When I first started brewing, I was using using
nylon grain bags to hold my hops (much like a tea
bag)- this worked very well. At the end of the boil
and start of chilling phase I would remove the bags -
NOW, brewing all-grain 10 gallon batches I toss the
hops in free and they remain in the brew kettle while
I pump it through the chiller into the fermenter, This
takes about 15 minutes  - does this additional
exposure to the hops count? The beer tastes great, and
not overly hoppy to me so I will continue to do it
this way, but I am curious...

=====
BIBIDI !
        Brew It Bottle It Drink It 
       Carlos Benitez - Green Monster Brewing
        Bainbridge, PA,  U.S.A.



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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:24:04 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: pacific northwest brewpubs


In Seattle, sorry, these are off the top of my head and I don't have the
time to look up addresses and phone numbers.  Lots of Yellow pages on the
web.

Hales Ales IPA,		Special Bitters
Maritime Brewery, 	Dry hopped Islander Pale
Trollyman, 		home of Redhook Ales

Above 3 are very close, Hales and Maritime are in Ballard part of Seattle,
Trollyman is in Fremont which you pass through on the way from Downtown
to Ballard.  Hit Hales and Maritime, then Trollyman if you have the time.

Big Time Brewery, Bhagwan's Best, Oatmean Stout, Big Foot Barley Wine
                  Try them all.
A must, in the University District.

Elysian           Pilsner
Pike Place
Pyramid           Ho hum - Do not go out of your way.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 09:14:48 -0800
From: "J. Todd Larson" <larson at amazon.com>
Subject: Carbonation impact on gravity reading...

I thought my lager was done.  I rarely, if ever, take gravity readings.  It
appears and tastes like it is a little shy of being done, and is very
slightly carbonated in a keg right now (I thought it would be done by now
and began to carbonate it).  Can I still take an immediate gravity reading,
or should I dispense some and let it sit over-night to decarbonate?

It is my first lager, so I may have mis-judged the time to finish.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Todd Larson
Bainbridge Island, WA
larson at amazon.com



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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:36:28 -0500
From: "Kurt Schweter" <KSchweter at smgfoodlb.com>
Subject: Re:10 galon cornies - conicals

10 gallon cornies make great fermenters - 
spend a few bucks on an extra fluid tube and cut it off
or just use one from a 5 gallon soda keg
draw the beer from above the yeast
don't need to reinvent the wheel here



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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:32:46 -0600
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: Update on MCAB4 -- Hotels, etc.


Hi all,

	A quick update on the MCAB4 preparations:  the
Renaissance Hotel (where we're holding the judging and
having a hospitality suite) has filled up entirely for
the weekend of April 12-14.  Several other downtown
Cleveland hotels still have openings for the MCAB4 weekend,
among them:  
	Holiday Inn Express
        Holiday Inn City Center
        Wyndham Playhouse Square
        Comfort Inn Downtown
        Hyatt Regency,
all within easy walking distance of the Renaissance.        
MCABers can check all of them at once at cleveland.hotelguide.net.

A terse summary of the (tentative) schedule is:

        Friday, April 12:
                5-6PM Judge registration at Renaissance Hotel
                6-9PM First Round judging, Renaissance Hotel
                9PM-??? Talk brewing, sample homebrew in Hospitality
Suite
                        Renaissance Hotel

        Saturday, April 13:
                8:30-9:30AM Register at Great Lakes Brewing Co (Tasting
Room
                        of new Brewhouse.)
                9:30AM-12:15PM Morning talks, breaks (C. White, A. 
                        Tveekrem, S. Alexander.) at GLBC
                12:30-1:30 Lunch break
                1:30-5PM Afternoon talks, breaks (A. Meeker, C. Skypeck,
AJ 
                        DeLange, D. Cantwell, G. Strong.) at GLBC
                5-7PM  BOS judging at GLBC, break for everyone else
(back to
                        Hospitality Suite?)
                7-10PM Banquet/Awards Ceremony at GLBC.
                10PM-??? Talk brewing, sample homebrew in Hospitality
Suite
                        Renaissance Hotel.

Of course, all of the details are at hbd.org/MCAB.  It should be a 
seriously fun/interesting weekend.  Hope to see lots of HBDers here.

			Paul Shick
			Madly organizing in Cleveland Hts, OH

P.S.  We still need judges!  See the MCAB page and sign up, please.


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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:32:41 EST
From: Suds2468 at aol.com
Subject: Philadelphia brewpubs

Hi All:

I'm fixing to visit Philly the first week of April and would like to know if 
anyone can suggest some choice brewpubs.  Any ideas?

Brent
Johnson City, TN
State of Franklin Homebrewers



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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 22:35:59 
From: "John Biggins" <bignz721 at hotmail.com>
Subject: SF/Berkeley beer haunts

I am visiting San Francisco/Berkeley next month.  It's been 2 years since 
I've been there & was wondering if anything good or new has popped up that I 
can't find on Pubcrawler or any good recommendations (besides the manditory 
Toronado visit).

Private email OK

Thx

 -jb



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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:52:15 -0800
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: soda bottle threads

Does anyone on the list know the thread size and pitch for a 2-liter soda 
bottle?  I'm trying to tap a fitting to go on the top.  I roughly measured 
something like 1" 10TPI, but that doesn't seem to exist.

Any suggestions greatly appriciated.

cheers,
mike



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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 19:28:19 -0500
From: "Allen Godin" <allengodin at hotmail.com>
Subject: Mash Tuns

I'm not into mashing yet, so I don't care what the replies are to this post, 
however, is a 2 1/2 gallon Coleman cooler usable as a small scale mash tun?
I picked one up cheap from someone who's moving. I'm sure our family of 5 
can find a use for it if Mash Tuns have a low end size limit. I will 
probably start brewing with grain and extract by the end of the year as my 
skills progress.
I hope whoever replies will say something useful for everyone who's just 
beginning.

Thanks,
Allen Godin
Morrisville, VT

New and Improved!

Check out C-Smoke.
A Topica list for smokers of
quality commercial hand made cigars.

http://www.geocities.com/allen_godin/ClassicBoats/Boating.html

My website is growing.




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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 17:03:11 -0800
From: "badger" <badger at badger.cx>
Subject: Conical 10 Gallon was Re:10 gallon cornies

> From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
>
> There are advantages and disadvantages to using conicals.  The big
advantage
> is the ability to remove the yeast from the beer, not the other way
around,

yeah, that does seem to me to be a big plus.. I hate racking..

> There are also quite a few disadvantages.  One is that due to the high
> cost of a conical, most people who have them only have one.  If it's tied
> up for 3 weeks at a time (for ale) and you only have one, you can't brew
> another batch.  If you're going to tie it up with a lager, that might
> take 8 - 10 weeks.  Same problem the big boys have - planning and
allocating
> tank space.  Another problem is controlling the fermentation temperature.
> Glycol units can be purchased or added on, but they're not cheap.  And a
> 10 gallon conical likely won't fit in any fridge that one of us has.

so, If I don't lager or have a need for temp control, and only do batches
every once in a while then the biggest pain would be cleaning.

> They're also difficult to clean.

yeah, I could how that might be a problem.

Another factor occured.  weight.  I don't have a pump system, so it would
have to be all gravity feed.

> I undertand you can't bottle out of it, so you still have to do at least
one transfer.

can you bottle out of SS conical?  I guess I hadn't considered that.

> do it, and it's something most of us think we'd like to have.

oh heck yeah its a toy..  just like the whole process of brewing for me.. I
have a garage full of toys..





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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 19:37:43 -0800 (PST)
From: carlos benitez <greenmonsterbrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: conical fermenters

Hi everybody,
   For those of you interested in conical fermenters
you might want to check out Lehman's (the non-electric
people) Old-time cream separator -10 gallon, stainless
steel, sight window,  conical bottom w/ valve ... Sure
looks like a conical fermenter to me -  just don't
tell the Amish you're using it to brew ;)
   web site is www.lehmans.com - cost is $199.00 US - 
 I don't know if this would be a good price, OR even
if this would really be suitable for this purpose but
it might be worth a look.

=====
BIBIDI !
        Brew It Bottle It Drink It 
       Carlos Benitez - Green Monster Brewing
        Bainbridge, PA,  U.S.A.



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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:14:01 +1100
From: "Phil Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: More On Oxidation

I keep thinking about a couple of comments Steve Alexander made in a recent
post regarding oxidation. One reference he had, suggested that free oxygen
in wort would be totally spent in seven hours (no yeast added). Another
paper suggested that oxygen input to the wort should be done four hours
after the yeast is added (which is when the yeast would be ready to use it).

This means the lag time most of us experience waiting for our yeast to get
going is allowing the harmful effects of oxidation to easily take place. But
we generally don't notice it. Why?

I guess the answer must be that this oxidation will not become apparent (as
far as having any effect on flavour) until somewhere a lot further down the
track. I would imagine keeping the beer in warm temperatures (after
packaging) would very much shorten the time before this
oxidation rears it ugly head as a detectable flavour defect.

In fairness to Steve, he has long argued this very point. He did make the
point that these references were to "in brewery conditions". The only reason
I can see for this is that "in brewery conditions" probably takes into
account the rough handling the beer is likely to get once it leaves the
brewery and the length of time before it is consumed.

When you think about it, even kegs in a pub are not looked after the way a
homebrewer would want. They sit in warm conditions and the beer is cooled
going
down the line before it gets into your glass. Homebrewers generally look
after their creation with all the love and care children afford to
silkworms. Of course not all homebrewers keg their beer and keep it chilled
in the fridge. Those who bottle are possibly inclined to be more affected by
oxidation. Just my summation here, nothing scientific. Bottle conditioning
requires keeping the beer in warmer temps for a period of time. I dare say a
lot of bottled homebrew stays out of the fridge for a longer time simply
because 30, 40 or 50 bottles simply can't be accommodated. Try telling the
wife the food will have to rot on the kitchen table because your stacking
the
fridge with homebrew. Not likely!! Most homebrewers end up with a second
fridge.

I only got into this discussion after using wort kits. My normal full mash
brewing generally keeps me well clear of oxidation problems.

Brewing is a fascinating hobby. There is so much you can worry about, but
then only a certain percentage of it is worth worrying about. Of course you
can worry too little too! Finding your own balance is a part of becoming a
competent brewer.

Cheers
Phil







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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 11:22:56 -0500
From: Danny Breidenbach <dbreiden at math.purdue.edu>
Subject: Liberty Ale

Hi all,

I normally don't even think about imitating anything, but I've been on a
long hiatus from brewing, and just last night cracked open a Liberty Ale
(Anchor).  I don't think I've ever had one before.  I've never had a
commercially brewed beer that tasted so much like a REALLY excellent
homebrew.  What a great beer.

So the question arises: any tips on trying to shoot for something
Liberty-like ... extract or all-grain?

Many thanks,
- --Danny in West Lafayette, Indiana



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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 12:05:18 -0500
From: "David Craft" <chsyhkr at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Sour Brown Ale

Greetings,

I am getting ready to make a Oud Bruin.  If I add cherries to the secondary
would this still be Old Brown per BJCP guidelines.  I know of several
commercial examples that include fruit.  Would this be a Fruit Beer?

When I add the Pediccocus to the secondary, would I make a starter or just
pour in?  Anyone have any experience with this bacteria?

Regards,

David B. Craft
Battleground Brewers Homebrew Club
Crow Hill Brewery and Meadery
Greensboro, NC



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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:42:35 -0500
From: "James Sploonta" <biere_god at hotmail.com>
Subject: More Klein

>From March 20, CHouffe Biere De Mars:

"The hazy, ochre-colored body has an aromatic, fresh-mown hay aspect with 
hints of ginger and a sweet hay-tinged mouthfeel."

and

"A decided yeast bounce is present in the finish."

C'mon! Where are all of you?! Don't let SA scare you off! Klein is an idiot! 
Am I the only one who, unlike our faithful janitor, has not tossed out the 
Klein "I can't describe beer, so neither should you" calendar?


A lone voice crying out in the desert,
Jimmy Sploonta
Somewhere between here and there.




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