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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE: Yeast Starter ("Parker Dutro")
  Re: Real Aussies ("Rob Compton")
  Conicals ("David Hooper")
  Pediccocus Bacteria ("Peter Fantasia")
  Re: Conicals (Art Tyszka)
  Concerned Brewer ("Caryl Hornberger")
  Re: Conicals (David Towson)
  Re: Yeast Starter (Demonick)
  Re: It's spelled "lose" (mohrstrom)
  2002 BUZZ OFF HB Competition ("Houseman, David L")
  Barley wine help ("Ira Edwards")
  Bifenthrin/Jap beetles (Mark Kellums)
  re: oxidation ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: Conical Fermenters (Rob Dewhirst)
  Baltic Porter (Greg Remake)
  Einen Kleinen ("James Sploonta")


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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:56:14 -0800
From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: RE: Yeast Starter

A good rule is to store your starter at close to the same temp. your ale
will be stored. If it's gonna be 68 deg., your starter will be fine  at  room
temp. (as long as room temp. is under 80!) It's genetic conditioning.  It
helps to make your starter  at  the same (or close) gravity as the OG of your
recipe.  If it's a big beer (OG over 1.080) you can do one starter  at  1.050
and then step it up two or three days later with a second starter wort
closer to your recipe's OG.  Pithcing the starter  at  krausen or after krausen
is debateable.  A good rule is:  If you pitch at krausen, dump the WHOLE
starter into your beer, this assures good kick-start, as much of the yeast
is suspended and active.  If you wait until the activity has slowed (and
this is what I typically do) then you can pour off most of the wort, leaving
the thick yeast cake and an inch of wort.  Shake it god either way so it
mixes all together and pour it in.  One question:  Why are you doing a HEF
for your first batch, and why a starter?  It may be best to go simple and
just pitch two packets of good dry yeast or one healthy strain of liquid.
Also, Hefeweizen is usually a more dificult beer to accomplish, but if you
are set on it and feel comfortable with the brewing proccess, go for it.  My
first batch was complicated enough as it was, though.  Good luck!
Parker



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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:37:45 -0000
From: "Rob Compton" <compton at btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Real Aussies

As a stinking pom... I can concur that Real Aussies do not drink Fosters.
They have mastered the art of brewing it in vast quantities and conning the
rest of the world into thinking it's wonderful, thus exporting the lot!

Then there's Castlemaine XXXX wher the first X can be replaced by a 'P' and
so-on!! (Sorry Mr Bond! [Alan])

Vegemite.... well we have our own version here, called Marmite, which is
made in a factory next door to the Bass maltings in Burton-On-Trent. It's
the same sort of thing, it's like it or loathe it!

Ahhh, I feel like a Toohey's........

PS, can someone please send me a Carlton football shirt! I have asked
countless friends who have visited Oz to bring one back, but nobody seems to
be able to find one. Caaarrrnnntheblueees!

Rob.




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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:16:38 -0800
From: "David Hooper" <DHooper at kc.rr.com>
Subject: Conicals

I have bottled from conicals. I contacted Hobby Beverage, who makes the
MiniBrew, and they wrote me that they recommend going to kegs from the
conical, but suggested you go to a bottling bucket for bottles. I have
bottled from the conical using PrimeTabs and it worked well. You do have to
reduce the trub and yeast below the outlet and let it settle for awhile
before bottling. If I add corn sugar, then I go to the bottling bucket, but
it is no problem.
Also, I want to thank those people who sent me information on the types of
pumps they are using. It was very helpful. Now I will have my conical for
ales, and a pump for my carboys for my lagers.
David Hooper
DHooper at kc.rr.com
http://pages.prodigy.net/david_hooper


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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:46:34 -0500
From: "Peter Fantasia" <fantasiapeter at hotmail.com>
Subject: Pediccocus Bacteria

David,
I've used Wyeast Lactobacillus culture and I do make a starter. Since the
bacteria like certain vitamins(I think its thiamin and B1) I add yeast
energizer and a crushed brewers yeast tablet along with some yeast nutrient.
It takes a while to get a good culture growing. 2-3 days. I use it for
making Berliner Weiss.

Cheers,
Pete in NJ


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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:14:47 -0500
From: Art Tyszka <Atyszka at cbf.com>
Subject: Re: Conicals

On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:12:40 -0500, Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
wrote:

>The big question remaining that nobody answered is whether you can 
>bottle (or keg) directly from a conical, and how difficult that is, or 
>what the procedure is.

Bill, I own the B3 conical and can't say enough about it.  Kegging directly
from it was covered in another post, but it's an easy operation.  As for
bottling directly from it - no problem.  While I keg 90% of my beer I do
occasionally bottle from it too.  I use a very short (2") piece of vinyl
tubing to connect my filler right up to the side port valve (an essential
option IMHO).  I get around the dilemma of priming sugar by using PrimeTabs.
I struggled with a different way but this seems to be the best as you don't
stir up the sediment nor risk contamination by opening the fermenter.
Standard disclaimers, blah blah blah.

Art Tyszka
www.loyalshepherd.com 


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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:23:05 -0500
From: "Caryl Hornberger" <carylmarx at hotmail.com>
Subject: Concerned Brewer

I just started brewing in December, and now that the summer is quickly
approaching here in Indiana (well, you can't tell by today, but it really
is) I'm starting to get worried about brewing temperatures.  I only brew
ales, so keeping the house around 68F has been no problem, but in the
summertime, it's going to be 80F in the house.  What do I do? Go dig a 10
foot hole in the back yard?  What does everyone else out there do?  The
cheaper the better.

Thanks
Caryl Hornberger


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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:42:27 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Conicals

In Homebrew Digest #3897 (March 25, 2002), Larry Bristol wrote:

>II do have first hand experience going directly from the conical to a
>keg.  In fact, this is my standard procedure.  The side port valve on
>my conical has a curved tube inside the fermenter that can be rotated
>so that it rests just over the yeast, allowing (generally) clear beer
>to be drawn.

I believe I have the same model conical fermenter he is using (from Beer, 
Beer and More Beer), and I too use it as he described with great 
success.  In my opinion, the "rotating racking port" so greatly adds to the 
utility of the device, that it is worth the substantial added cost.  I have 
also successfully bottled directly from the fermenter using this port.  The 
trick here is to be sufficiently familiar with the recipe being brewed as 
to know pretty accurately what the final gravity will be.  Bottling can 
then be done when the beer is "a few points" above its final gravity, 
allowing the fermentation to finish in the bottle and carbonate the 
beer.  I am still experimenting with the definition of "a few points", and 
I don't feel qualified to give any further advice on that subject, but I'd 
be pleased to hear from anyone who has worked it out.

Dave



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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:20:16 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Yeast Starter

From: "Scott & Lisa" <scottandlisa at mindspring.com>
> ... When preparing the yeast starter, would it be better to ferment 
> it at the recommended batch temperature (68 F) or let it ferment at 
> room temp.?  Also, is it best to pitch the starter at high krausen?  

Either temperature is okay as long as your "room temperature" isn't
above about 75F.  Yeasties are hardy buggers.  I let my starters 
flocculate in the refrigerator, then decant, then pitch the yeast
cake.  For my take on yeast starters see 

http://www.primetab.com/yeaststarter.html

Ignore the stuff about aeration and just shake the starter to get as
much air in it as possible.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:38:15 -0500
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Re: It's spelled "lose"

> Why is it that everyone,  and I mean everyone,
> spells the word lose,loose? I see this in every
> e-mail forum I belong to, not just this one.

Randy - It's _not_ everyone.  "Loose" is the accepted Canadian (also UK and
Ozzie) spelling.  See also, "colour", "neighhbourhood", etc.


Mark in Kalamazoo
(insert "smilies" where ever you deem appropriate)



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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:01:25 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: 2002 BUZZ OFF HB Competition

Announcing the 2002 Buzz Off Homebrew Competition

This year's Buzz Off will be held on Saturday, June 1st at Iron Hill Brewery
and Restaurant in West Chester, PA.  Entries will be accepted from May 13th
through May 29th at regional homebrew stores and at Victory Brewing Company
in Downingtown, PA.  Mail-in entries must go to Victory and be received no
later than Wednesday May 29th.  The Buzz Off is once again an MCAB
Qualifying Event for the 2003 MCAB.  Judges please contact us to reserve
your position at the judging tables.  Further details and forms can be found
at the Buzz web site at http://hbd.org/buzz/.   

David Houseman
Competition Organizer
housemanfam at earthlink.net


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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:07:32 
From: "Ira Edwards" <ira_j_e at hotmail.com>
Subject: Barley wine help


Hello all,

I have been all grain brewing with my converted sanke kegs for a couple of 
years and wanted to do another barley wine with a really high (just 
HIGH)O.G.  and I need some tips.  thisis to ba a several year project...

in the past (about once a year) I ahve made a partial mash brew by just
fortifying  the boil with DME.  to do an all grain recipie, what special 
tips do I need to consider?  do I just make a 10 gallon mash witha hig 
gravity and them boil it down?  please help.  as a reference, I have been 
able to get a wort with gravities of over 1.150 out of my system, but that 
was only with the first runnings.  shoud I just go for that and use the rest 
if the wort for a normal strength beer.  I plan to pitch with 1/2 gallon of 
scottish ale yeast in a 6 gallon batch, and then later witha awine yeast if 
needed.

thanks for all your help in advance!
 -Ira






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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:08:27 -0600
From: Mark Kellums <infidel at springnet1.com>
Subject: Bifenthrin/Jap beetles

With the expected emergence of Jap beetles feasting on my hop plants this
season I was thinking of trying another insecticide, bifenthrin, suggested
by a fellow hbd'er(thanks Gregory). I used permethrin last season with good
results but it was a major PITA to apply. Its use also resulted in a bit of
a mite problem. The bifenthrin is in liquid form so that it should be a
breeze to apply compared to the permethrin dust. Can anyone share their
experiences using bifenthrin?

Thanks
Mark Kellums
Decatur Il.



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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:26:37 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: oxidation

Phil asks more .... (and Pivo adds some useful detail)

>This means the lag time most of us experience waiting for our yeast to get
>going is allowing the harmful effects of oxidation to easily take place.
But
>we generally don't notice it. Why?

As Pivo points out not all of the oxygen is consumed by yeast even under
ideal circumstances.  More specifically - in air saturated wort (~8ppm of
O2) roughly 2ppm is used to make yeast lipids.  Of the remaining 6ppm some
(again Pivo noted this) into peroxide or super-oxide (O2-) ions.  Yeast (and
all cells) have mechanisms for dealing with small quantities of these "free
radicals".  For yeast it involves catalase also squalene and reduced
glutathion as a sequestration agents and several other mechanisms, but the
potential for cell damage exists.  Some small fraction of the 8ppm adds to
wort component staling.

The reason you don't notice this is that the few ppm of O2 at aeration time
is chipmunk nuts compared to other sources of wort oxidation.  Small scale
brews (15-90 gal) have been measured to uptake 50 to 200 ppm of O2 during
the mash !!!!    It's not a good thing that our small batch mashes pick up
so much O2, and it's probably the biggest reason for limited "fridge life"
of HB, but we all know that well made but badly handled HB usually won't
show much staling damage for 2 or even 3 months in the fridge.

The exact sort of oxidation damage you *may* eventually see depends on a lot
of factors - pH, enzymes, concentrations, times and temps and also the
wildly different flavor thresholds of the specific products.  You can
oxidize a lot of phenolics and only have a modest flavor impact, but if you
oxidize the same molar concentration of fatty acids - whew bad.
Trans-2-nonenal - the cardboard aroma aldehyde is formed as a  breakdown
product of oxidized linoleic acid - about the most common fatty acid around.
It's somewhat difficult to oxidize at wort pH, but much easier at beer pH.
Still most of the lipid oxidation happens in the mash or before because
there are lipooxygenase enzymes speeding the process along.  One specific
barley lipooxygenase (LOX-2) is needed to oxidize the linoleic in just the
right way so that it will breakdown to form trans-2-nonenal.

A long while back I suggested to DocPivo that he *may* need to aerate his
mash and not his post boil wort to form cardboard aroma.   The good guys at
Katholique Univ in Louvrain Belgium (a hub for brewing research)
demonstrated exactly this point in a 1999 paper (Cerevisea, 1999).    Many
of the paths to nasty tasting oxidation products are multi-step like this -
something oxidizes then over time degrades into something awful.  Yeast may
be able to rescue and reverse simple oxidation in some cases - but they
can't put humpty-dumpty together again.

Phil again ...

>I guess the answer must be that this oxidation will not become apparent (as
>far as having any effect on flavour) until somewhere a lot further down the
>track. I would imagine keeping the beer in warm temperatures (after
>packaging) would very much shorten the time before this
>oxidation rears it ugly head as a detectable flavour defect.

Right.  The yeast *may* rescue you from some of that O2 oxidation damage but
adding O2 almost universally drives flavor compounds toward less attractive
states.  Many of these compounds seem to only evolve into their least
desirable flavors states after long periods of aging.  I have a
trans-nonenal study in which the levels rose for 3 to 9 months after
packaging for example.  Temperatures are a big issue too - one paper showed
that trans-nonenal developed about 18 times faster at 40C than at 20C in a
beer - around 4+X per 10C.  That's a pretty good reason to keep your beer
cool.

Kunze mentions some of the hi gravity dark bocks as being very flavor
un-stable.    I *think* it's melanoidin oxidation at issue (just like my
ancient canned wort).  There are a lot of ways to get bad flavors, but many
of the processes are slow.

And Pivo writes ...

>Steve Alexander suggests adding the big "O" at four hours.  This is one
>of many suggestions.  Some would say at 24 hours, since that is the time
>of maximal "budding" of the yeasts (they look like little Mickey Mouses
>then) and they then can best use the stuff for growth instead of just
>shuttleing it off into a bunch of other oxidation reactions.
>
>My suggestion is (as always) to play with it.

I just reported the suggestion of Lodolo et al in MBAA-TQ v36pp139-145, 1999
for aerating high gravity wort at T+4hrs.   My own thinking suggests that
yeast with decent storage carbohydrate levels could use aeration best just
about the time the first CO2 bubbles push through the airlock - or a little
earlier -  which accounts better for the variable lag period (I think).  I
either do this, or if the hour is too late I aerate earlier.  I seem to get
good yeast performance regardless of how early I aerate, but I haven't done
the controls to compare for stale flavors or yeast performance.  I *suspect*
that the aeration timing will impact the yeast performance much more than it
will impact flavor for the reasons cited - ~100ppm of O2 enters the mash,
~8ppm of O2 in the aeration - and the yeast are available to handle most of
the aeration O2.

I'm all in favor of playing with it - but Mickey has two ears - no ?   Has
he been fighting Tyson again ?

Pivo ...

> and lastly... a most wonderful
>"anti-oxidant" indeed..... living yeast.
>
>As to: "Can yeast counteract (reduce) oxidation products that have
>already formed?" (as in your suspected "stale" wort).

Can't find it at the moment but I've read of fermentation dramatically
reducing the concentrations of certain oxidition product - certain carbonyls
as I recall.

>I'd guess "to a certain degree".  I base this on "krauzening"
>experience.

At Pivo's prodding I've given in to kreusening lagers recently and it really
does make a difference.  It also makes sense that kreuzen helps but doesn't
cure stale beer.    I'm also 100% in agreement with Robin Griller's
comments.   I've done dozens of side-by-side comparisons of the same beer
bottle-CONDITIONED vs kegged and the kegged beer never shows as well as the
bottle conditioned one - especially after long time periods.
Non-conditioned bottled HB is often worse than the kegged after a few weeks.
Live yeast do make a difference.

Re autolysis - yes yeast can and do autolyse w/o oxygen.  They rip
themselves apart from the inside when certain proteolytic and glucanase
enzymes fail to stay contained in the vacuoles.  This causes the release of
nucleotides,  fatty acids and some sulfur compounds from the yeast.  Any
free O2 will make flavor matters go from bad to vegemite at this point.

- --

As for relaxing and not worrying about it - I don't worry a bit, but I do
care about what is happening in my mash tun and fermenter and storage kegs
and would like to understand it well enough to control the resulting beer
flavor.   If oxidation worried me I'd have nightmares about those who shovel
hot mash from a mash tun to a separate lauter !

 -S




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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:02:03 -0600
From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Re: Conical Fermenters

George Daher has been posting updates on rec.crafts.brewing about his 
experience with the "chemical mix tank" sold as an ag product.
<http://www.geocities.com/sgdaher/brewery/Conical.htm>

Search for subject "conical update" and author of Daher.
<http://groups.google.com/groups?as_ugroup=rec.crafts.brewing&as_usubject=co 
nical%20update&as_uauthors=daher&hl=en>

He talked about part numbers, special modifications US Plastics did for 
him, shipping costs, and ease of use.  I believe the last thing I saw from 
his report was "I love my new toy."

But if you have the choice, please buy from Westheffer, as you contribute 
to my local economy. :)



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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:48:15 -0600
From: Greg Remake <gremake at gsbpop.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Baltic Porter

I recently sampled a couple of Baltic Porters that were very impressive, 
Okocim Porter (Polish) and Utenos Porteris (Lithuanian).  The relatively 
high alcohol content (around 7%-8%) reminded me of an Imperial Stout, but 
without the sharp roasted bitterness.  More brown than black and having 
little hop character, they didn't seem to have much in common with the 
British porters I'm more familiar with, but I'd like to formulate a 
recipe.  There were a few ratings of commercial products on the web, but I 
didn't find much in the way of recipes.  The BJCP guidelines don't address 
the style, and none of my books do either.  Can anyone offer some hints as 
to a recipe, or at least some guidelines to follow?

Cheers,

Greg

Chicago, IL



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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:34:57 -0500
From: "James Sploonta" <biere_god at hotmail.com>
Subject: Einen Kleinen

More Kleinien contradictions and redefinitions:

Bon Temps: "...slightly chewy on the palate. Most of the flavor resides on 
the back of the tongue, leaving a clean mouthfeel in its wake... THe 
escalating yet restrained bitterness..."

Old Devil: "Old Devel starts with a lovely oatmeal presence - soft, grainy 
and very spongy... The sweet, honey mouthfeel..."

That he is always tasting yeast in the finish of bottle conditioned ales 
suggests that he is either drinking "Billy Bob" style, or is indelicate in 
his pour. Oddly, though not a bad description of some beer, his description 
of Cinq Cents does not parallel my experience with it. Anyone else having 
the calendar care to comment on his description on March 25? I do not recall 
the "blossoming clove" in the profile. (I do agree, though,  that it is 
delicious served with nuts. But I must point ou that it is also delicious 
when served with sane people.)




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