---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE; diacetyl rest after bottling lager ("Bill Frazier")
  Fist Partial Mash (Steve Tighe)
  Another Conical Options? (John Maylone)
  How Do You Sanitize Your Bottles? (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
  Munton's marris otter pale ale malt ("Peter Fantasia")
  suggestions on how to kill yeast ("Peter Fantasia")
  Lead in brass and copper pipng ("Braam Greyling")
  Re: Barley Wine Ale (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Any suggestions on how to kill yeast? ("Larry Bristol")
  belgian beers ("Fred Scheer")
  Baltic Porter (Glenn Raudins)
  RE CCF ("Steven Parfitt")
  RIMS ("Steven Parfitt")
  Temperature-controlled Conical (mohrstrom)
  16th Annual Big & Huge Homebrew Competition (Mark Garthwaite)
  hops poles (DHinrichs)
  Upper Mississippi Mash-Out Homebrew Competition (allan.boyce)
  Hop Trellis (mohrstrom)
  RE: Filtering Brew Water ("J.Savage")
  RE: unusual techniques (Brian Lundeen)
  Kaiser Doppel Malz clone ("Chuck Dougherty")
  Odd brewing practices... (Pat Babcock)
  Re: How to kill yeast (Gene Collins)
  RE: Maris Otter malt (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  muntons grain ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Conicals (stpats)


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Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:59:12 -0600
From: "Bill Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE; diacetyl rest after bottling lager

Darrell Leavitt asks..."I know that a diacetyl rest at the end of
fermentation is generally called
for with a lager/pilsner..but I wonder...could this rest be performed after
bottling?"

Hi Darrell-This reminds me of the old joke.  A lady comes to the complaint
window at a business.  She has a product that has obviously failed.  She
asks...Has this been tested.  The clerk says...Sure it was tested, it failed
miserably, but it was tested.

The answer to your question is...sure, you can do a diacetyl rest after
bottling.  However, you would be better served by doing a diacetyl rest in a
carboy so the diacetyl can escape thru the air lock.  After bottling,
everything will remain in the beer.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas







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Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:59:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Tighe <steve_tighe at yahoo.com>
Subject: Fist Partial Mash

Hello all,

Just discovered this forum a couple months ago, and
have been avidly re-reading a whole bunch of stuff
from the last couple years. Y'all have a little
something here for everyone!

I've been brewing for over a year (extract/specialty),
but am just starting to get more serious about it. I'm
ready to take my first baby steps toward all-grain.

I don't have a large enough kettle for 6 gallons of
pre-boil wort or a wort chiller, so I figure that my
first step will be to put together a lauter tun and
start with partial mash. I expect to go get a Phil's
Phalse Bottom and put it in my old 6.5 gallon bottling
bucket that I don't use anymore. This should be big
enough to make a reasonable-gravity 5-gallon batch
right? At least 1060 or so? I don't want to spend the
money, time, or deal with the complexity to go w/the
converted Gott cooler approach for now. I'll just mash
in a pot and transfer to the lauter tun.

I've decided to start with an American Pale Ale, since
it's nice and basic and should give me some feedback
on how I'm doing by not covering up my mistakes with a
lot of dark malt flavors. Guided by Ray Daniels'
Designing Great Beers, I came up with the following
recipe (5 gal):

3.25 lb light DME
3.25 lb pale ale malt (2 row)
 .75 lb 40L crystal

Cascade whole hops (assume for now 5.75%)
1.25 oz 60 min
1 oz 20 min 
1 oz at end of boil
 .75 oz dry hop in secondary (probably in a mesh bag)

Wyeast 1056

I'll mash at, oh I don't know, probably 150F or so
(Daniels says 149 to 154). The DME I buy seems to have
a fair amount of unfermentables, so I figure I'll go
with a less-dextrinous leaning mash.

According to Promash, assuming 70% efficiency and 3.5
gal at the start of the boil and using the Rager
formula, that should give me about 1050 gravity and 39
IBU, with 8 SRM color. This is within the style
guidelines and has a BU/GU of .79, about the middle of
what Daniels suggests.

One question I have is on the flavor/aroma/dry hops. I
basically picked those amounts at random, and made it
all add up to 4 oz because that's the lot size my
local shop sells hops in. I don't *have* to use the
whole package; will this amount blow me away? I love
hops, but you can, too, have too much!! I'd like a
nice, full hoppy flavor and aroma without puckering!

And of course, any other sage words about my plans
(techniques, mash temp, etc.) would be appreciated.
Oh, and I noticed back in January or so a bunch of
people commenting that a device like Phil's Sparge Arm
was thoroughly unnecessary. Could someone elaborate on
what you do to prevent channelling? I've heard of
putting a coffe-can lid on the grain surface and
placing the hose from the HLT right on that; is that a
recommended approach?

Well, sorry for the long-winded first post. I look
forward to hearing from the collective.

Steve Tighe
Berkeley CA




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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 00:05:03 -0800
From: John Maylone <mrkoala at mac.com>
Subject: Another Conical Options?



Charles R. Stewart, <Charles at TheStewarts.com> says "I LOVE George Daher's
conical setup!  I was looking at the stainless tank from Toledo Metal
Spinning, but really like the idea of being able to  see inside (the yeast
level, etc.).  I'm currently using a polyethylene tank (albeit with a flat
bottom) and and have been very happy with it.  The wheels are a nice touch,
too.  And what a bargain!  Just go to http://www.usplastic.com and search
for 8551 (NAANYASC - No affiliation, and not yet a satisified customer).

While searching for 8551, I found a potential 15 gallon conical fermenter
at: 

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&catego
ry%5Fname=Polyethylene+Tanks&product%5Fid=15%2C+30+And+70+Gallon+Chem%2DMix+
Tanks

The unit has 60 degree cone angle and the $86.70 cost includes molded in 2
gallon increment markers and the stand.  They also sell fittings, etc.  The
tough part with this unit would be sticking a smaller dump valve on it; the
bottom comes with a 2" FPT...............


John Maylone
Tollhouse, CA




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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:37:25 -0500
From: "Barrett, Bob (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
Subject: How Do You Sanitize Your Bottles?

I was talking with a fellow homebrewer the other day 
and was telling him about the new way I clean and 
sanitize bottles before I bottle.  He said I should send
it out to the HBD and see what kind of response I 
get.  Sounded like a good idea so here it is.

I like using Anchor Brewing Co. bottles.  They seem 
to work the best with my 2 handed bottle capper.  I 
save the ones I have emptied and sometimes get
more from the local beer store.  In Michigan we have 
the recycle law so I just take them some long necks 
and trade them for the Anchor bottles.  It works out 
nice.  Doesn't cost anything more than I have already 
spent.

I soak the bottles over night in a solution of hot water 
and a PBW type product.  The next day the labels are 
floating in the water.  No hassle trying to get them off.  
I use a jet spray bottle blaster and rinse the bottles 
several times.  Then I visually inspect them for any type 
of foreign matter that is left inside and place them neck 
down in a six pack holder until I am ready to sanitize them.
This lets the bottles drip dry and keeps them clean, even 
for several months.

When I am ready to sanitize the bottles, I make little 
aluminum foil squares, approximately 2 inches X 2 inches.  
I place the foil squares over the opening of the bottle and 
mold them down to the side of the bottle with my hand.  
This keeps anything from getting into the bottle after it is 
sanitized.  This should provide enough protection to keep 
the bottles sanitized for several days.  Maybe even weeks.
  
Now the sanitizing.  Place the bottles you want to sanitize
in the oven.  I heat them to 350F for two hours.  Turn the 
oven off and let them cool in the oven.  When they have 
cooled I place them back in the six pack holders with the 
neck up.  Again, the foil will keep out the bad guys.  When 
I am ready to bottle I just remove the foil, fill and cap.  To me 
this is much easier than using any type of liquid sanitizer.

Comments?????  Have a better idea?????

My $0.02.  Cheers!

We make the beer we drink!!!
Bob Barrett
Ann Arbor, MI
(2.8, 103.6) Rennerian




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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:37:21 -0500
From: "Peter Fantasia" <fantasiapeter at hotmail.com>
Subject: Munton's marris otter pale ale malt

Doug,
Go all American. Why not try Breiss Pale Ale Malt? It is slightly darker
than their 2-row brewers malt. I use American malts whenever possible. Never
found any problems apparent.

Cheers,
Pete Fantasia
Brew Jersey


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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:42:37 -0500
From: "Peter Fantasia" <fantasiapeter at hotmail.com>
Subject:  suggestions on how to kill yeast

Ross,
Aggressive fining including bentonite , isinglass or polyclar coupled with
chilling and racking could do it. One note though, if you add honey without
boiling you risk adding wild yeaster beasters.

Good Luck,

Pete Fantasia
NJ


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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:26:45 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: Lead in brass and copper pipng

Hi everybody 

I am aquiring more information regarding the removal of lead in 
brass and my copper pipes.  


I found this on a webpage: 
************
Brass is OK

There are some purists out there who will insist that brass fittings 
and ball valves are a big no-no in brewing. I say hog-wash. The only 
downside that exists is the presence of small (and I mean really 
small) traces of lead on the brass surface. A quick 5 minute soak 
in a mixture of 2 parts vinegar and 1 part hydrogen peroxide will 
remove all traces of surface lead. The brass fittings and ball valves 
are much cheaper and more readily available than stainless steel   


********************* 

I cant find an explanation why this should work and I am not sure if 
it would work. So then I sent e-mail to a chemical engineer that I 
know and he replied:  


++++++++++++

Howdy Braam,


Ok - long story. I actually consulted some of my old chemistry 
books. Firstly - don't mess with lead. This is what was proven to 
cause Beethoven's deafness and ill health. It also causes mood 
swings and stuffs up your digestive system. Hydrogen peroxide is 
bad stuff. Dissolved in water (that is how you would buy it - it is 
very unstable by itself) it forms a very strong acid. Now I don't 
understand why one would want to mix a strong acid with a weak 
acid (acetic acid with H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide)). The strong acid 
might actually see the weak acid as a base and chow the OH at 
the end (I think acetic acid is CH3COOH if I can remember right...)  
 

Now about 'leaching' the lead out of the copper. I had a look at the 
redox tables and it looks to me if the copper is going to get chowed 
by the acid before the lead does. This is bad. Should I be wrong 
and the lead does get chowed - my question would be what is your 
copper pipe going to look like? It will probably be pitted. This 
'leaching' process would only be able to remove the surface lead. 
Not the lead that is trapped beyond the surface layer. Now should 
the surface get scratched per chance it means that once again that 
new surface will have lead in/on it and that eventually you will go 
deaf from drinking your beer.   

Why it works for the guy with the brass - I don't know. Maybe the 
tin in the brass helps the copper hang around a bit longer. My next 
question is: How does he know that all the lead is gone? This is a 
looong term thing - you won't taste it or see the affects in the short 
term. I think the best would be to maybe buy SS piping. Fine - if 
you want the fittings to be copper/brass - no problem, because 
they will be small compared to the piping.   

Perhaps my chem eng is just a bit rusty - do you know any 
metallurgists?

Cheers,

Greg
+++++++++

Another person also sent the following:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi all,

Brass is an alloy (mixture of metals) that consists of between: 50 - 
90% Copper,	20 - 40% Zinc,	0 - 6% Tin,	0 - 2% Lead and 0 - 1% 
iron. Lead is not concentrated at the surface but distributed evenly 
throughout brass, by the nature of alloys, you cannot selectively 
dissolve one metal (lead) from an alloy. Any kind of surface removal 
with acids, etc, just etches away the surface. The amount of 
dissolved lead depends on how much total brass you dissolve into 
your beer, I am sure this is a minute amount. 

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<    

Now, my question is.

Why would a hydrogen peroxide and vinegar solution removes the 
lead from the surface ?  

I really really really hopes someone can explain this.  
All info will be posted to the group

Best regards

Braam Greyling

Braam Greyling
Snr. Design Engineer
Azoteq(Pty)Ltd
Tel +27 21 8630033  Fax +27 21 8631512



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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:50:41 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Barley Wine Ale

Mike Mullins writes from just up the road in Lapeer, MI:

>I have been fermenting a Barley Wine Ale for about three and a half months
>and I think it's about played out. I want to bottle this in 7 oz. bottles. I
>have never so thoroughly fermented a beer before and am worried that there is
>no live yeast left for carbonation. What would be the best way to ensure I
>get some carbonation in this beer?

While there's a good chance you would have enough viable yeast left 
for carbonation, the best way is to play it safe with fresh yeast. 
You could simply use a fresh pack/tube of the same yeast without a 
starter, or you could use this fresh yeast to brew a normal strength 
ale and harvest some for bottling.  I think that if the yeast is a 
top cropper, that would be the best yeast to harvest.

You could also kraeusen with the new ale (adding a portion of it to 
the barley wine when it is at high kraeusen), but that would reduce 
the effective OG of your barley wine.

>Although I have the ability to keg beer, I don't have the equipment 
>to bottle from my keg.

If you mean counter-pressure bottling, that may not be wise from a 
longevity standpoint, although I would defer on this to someone who 
has done it successfully.

When Ann Arbor Brewers Guild brewed 50 gallons of Classic American 
Pilsner for the 2000 NHC, we C-P bottled it.  We tasted some last 
October that had been kept refrigerated (16 months) and it was badly 
oxidized and virtually undrinkable.  It tasted great at the 
conference, BTW.  Not sure at which point in the brewing or bottling 
process the O2 entered, but it was a problem in a way that bottle 
conditioned CAPs were not.

As Steve Alexander most recently pointed out, live yeast is a good 
protector.  Sierra Nevada has a clever way of combining the best of 
bottle conditioning and counter-pressure bottling.  They filter their 
beer, then bottle it with a little yeast (and perhaps a very little 
fermentable material, not sure).  This way they have the protection 
of the yeast, but so little that fussy consumers aren't put off by 
the yeast deposit on the bottom.  There is so little that it's 
unnoticeable.

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:04:21 -0600
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: Any suggestions on how to kill yeast?

On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 00:23:44 -0500, Ross Cohn <artnculture at yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I'm new to this list and finally came up with a
>question to post:  I have a 6 Gallon Demijohn filled
>with Elderberry Mead that i would like to bottle
>soonand I have a problem:  
>  My problem is, I cannot find a way to kill the yeast! 
>I don't want to put any additives into the mix (it's
>all natural, including lemon juice to boost the acid
>level when we pitched), so I am looking for a natural
>way to kill it off, so there are no "bombs" when I add
>more honey.

Ross, I faced the same problem when I wanted to leave some residual
sweetness in my apple cider.  The yeasties would eat all the sugar it
could find, leaving the cider so dry it was practically dusty.  The
problem with answering the question is knowing your definition of "all
natural".  Nuclear fusion is an all natural process to me, so I do not
know if either of the two methods below qualify, but for what they are
worth:

(1) Pasteurization:  Immediately after bottling, place the bottles in a
hot bath.  Bring the bottled mead to 150F for 10-15 minutes, and that
should do the trick.

(2) Stabilization:  Add potassium sorbate, 1/2 teaspoon per gallon. 
This is what winies use to leave some residual unfermented sugar.  Your
LHBS probably sells wine making supplies, also.  This is the technique
I prefer for my cider 
(see
http://www.doubleluck.com/things/brewery/recipes/DoubleLuckCider.html).

Note that if you kill the yeast (no matter what technique you use), you
will not be able to do bottle conditioning as there is no yeast
remaining to generate carbon dioxide.  Assuming you are not planning to
make your mead "sparkling", this should not be a problem for you.


Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX   AR=[1093.6,223.2]
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:10:27 -0600
From: "Fred Scheer" <fhopheads at msn.com>
Subject: belgian beers

Ira:
I have cultured the "sediment" of Bottles
Fantome, Duvel, and some other styles
with the help of a local Scientist.
After making several batches of cloning the
appropriate Belgian beer style, I had some of
the local Music City Brewers tasting
the beers. We all concluded that the taste
was very close to the Fantome and Duvel.
At the moment I'm "lagering" 5 different
styles of Belgian type beers, all brewed with
the yeast cultured from imported bottles.
Fred Scheer






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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:22:29 -0500
From: Glenn Raudins <glenn at raudins.com>
Subject: Baltic Porter

Greg asks about Baltic Porter.  A great example is Aldaris Porter, from
Riga, Latvia, that can now be found in places in the U.S.  If memory
serves me correctly, as I toured to brewery in Riga, it is at least a
starting gravity of 1.085 possibly more.  So shoot big, but not imperial
stout big.  It is fermented with lager yeast, but I believe you can do
equally well with an Ale yeast.  With regards to color, it appears black
brown, but you can actually see through it (when held up to the light)
and it has a somewhat ruby hue to it too.  When selecting a grain bill,
think towards the sweeter tastes than the roasted tastes.  Tasting notes
from Michael Jackson: "cherry-to-black, syrupy, herbal, rooty,
cinnamon-ish "  I think he is pretty close to the mark, I don't taste a
cinnamon to it, but the herbal syrupy is right one.  

Hope this helps, it is a beer worth sampling a few of.  

Glenn Raudins

http://www.raudins.com/BrewBooks/ - Reprints of Historical Brewing
books. (And soon Historical Distilling Books.)


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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:29:19 -0500
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE CCF

Just finished my first batch in a Cylindro-Conical Fermenter.

(1) I taped one of the sitck on thermostrips on the side of the cone, and 
have a heat lamp on the opposite side. The basement is only 62F right now, 
and I check it twice a day and adjust the heat lamp to maintain 74F during 
fermentation. I brewed with WY1214 and wanted the esters. This worked out 
quite well for crude temperature control.

(2) Dumped the sploog after one day out the bottom port. Nice capibility.

(3) Dumped the yeast out the bottom port last night before racking beer. 
Nice also. Put a quart yeast cake in the fridge for my next session.

(4) Dumped beer from CCF into two cornys via the side port. first gallon in 
first corny was cloudy with yeast, after that it ran pretty clear. Lifted 
top cover and feed CO2 in while racking to prevent exposure to O2. Probably 
not a big deal since the top surface of the liquid was pretty still.

(5) After racking beer, I carried the CCF outside and hosed it out. Wiped 
the sploog ring out with a sponge, rinsed again, carried it back inside and 
dumed a gallon of SanStar in it. Sponged it really well with the SanStar, 
and put the top back on. When I get ready to brew again, I'll lift the lid, 
wipe it all down and drain the SanStar, and be ready to fill it again. 
Cleanup was a snap. And, I don't worry about dropping it like I would a 
Carboy.

Nice toy.

Since I got it made for free (Friend runs a sheetmetal shop), I think it is 
especially nice.

Would I pay $500 for one. Hell no!

Would I make one from a TMS (Toledo Metal Spinning) grain hopper for a total 
investment of less than $200. Hmmmm, possibly. Yea, another would be nice. 
One for ale, one for lager.

This one holds over 15 gallons, and a 11.5 gallon batch has about the right 
amount of room for Kreussen, etc. Make em large.

It will be interesting to see if I'm still using it regularly in a year or 
so.

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN 5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck




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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:48:45 -0500
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RIMS

Last night I finally installed my RIMS heating chamber in my rig. I  decided 
to put it at the output of the pump. The downside of this configuration is 
that everything that goes through the pump, goes through the RIMS Chamber. 
The upside is It required bending one piece of tubing (with a flair 
fitting), and adding one more with two flair fittings. Very easy 
installation. I have not wired the chamber yet. I'll do that affter running 
some circulation tests with water.

I've got a WATLOW PID controller and power TRIAC to cotrol the heater with 
(Thanks John) so I should'nt have any trouble with that.

Woke up this morning and while laying in bed started thinking (bad thing 
first off in the morning). When wort is circulated through a RIMS heating 
chamber, people are concerned with scorching the wort. I used a screw in hot 
water heating element, and can swap them out to select different heat 
densities. I plan on using a 4500W 230VAC unit at 115VAC for 1125W, with a 
3500W 230VAC elelment as an option of 875W at 115VAC.  I can always put a 
bolcking diode series with the element to cut that in half, so I have 
options for 1125, 875, 562.5, and 437.5 Watts, so Scorched wort shouldn't be 
a problem.

So, what's bugging me? Enzimes. Deactivation of the enzimes occurs much 
lower than scorching the wort.

What keeps the RIMS heater from Deactivating the enzimes in the liquid? 
Short exposure to the hight temperature in the heater, since the wort is 
pumped back in the tun and mixes with cooler wort?

Secondly, how to get to target temp? My temp feedback sensor is in the top 
of the RIMS chamber. If I set the PID for my target temp, I'll never get 
there, or will take forever. If the PID is trying to hold 153, and my mash 
is at 135, the PID will turn on to heat wort returning to the tun to 153. As 
the inlet temp drops, the PID will cut back on the heater drive and 
asemtotically approach the target temp, but my delta T will drop. How do I 
get there in a timely manner, unless I set my PID above the target temp, and 
shut it off when I reach target?

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN 5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck




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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:03:54 -0500
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Temperature-controlled Conical 

> But as Brian Lundeen, <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>, notes,
> "brewers who are serious about improving their
> beers will spend their money on temperature control
> before buying a conical."

Hmmm ... why not have both?

Consider this: Why not take TWO of the same-sized spun stainless conicals,
and nest them one inside the other?  Form a path for recirculating glycol
by routing a closed cell foam gasket on the outside of the inner cone
before assembly, and clamp them together to compress the gasket.  Seal
around the top with the same foam gasket, and add bulkhead IN and OUT ports
on the outer cone.  An el Cheapo recirc pump driving glycol from a chilled
tank inside a dorm fridge, controlled by a Ranco (or even an old household
thermostat).  A good scrounger ought to be able to pull it off for about
two bills.

Note: If anyone puts this into commercial production, they owe me a "test"
unit for my endorsement!

See you at MCAB (unless the kid makes it home from Afghanistan by then)!


Mark in Kalamazoo



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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:40:22 -0600
From: Mark Garthwaite <greattaste at hbd.org>
Subject: 16th Annual Big & Huge Homebrew Competition

	The Madison Homebrewers & Tasters Guild is proud to sponsor 
the 16th Annual Big & Huge Homebrew Competition!  The Big & Huge is a 
competion for high gravity beers.  Entries for Big Ale and Big Lager 
categories range from an OG of 1.050 to 1.060.  Huge Ale and Huge 
Lager categories are for OG's greater than 1.060.  Ciders, meads, and 
sakes above an OG of 1.050 are accepted in a single category.

When:	Saturday May 4, 2002 at 11:00 am
Where:	JT Whitney's Pub & Brewery in Madison, WI
Entry Deadline is Wednesday April 24th.

	The Best of Show beer will be awarded the coveted WOOLY 
MAMMOTH plaque.  New this year is a HAIRLESS MOUSE award for the Best 
of the Cider, Mead, and Sake Category.  Awards and prizes will be 
presented to the top three finishers in each category.

More details can be found at: http://www.mhtg.org/contests/b_h_2002.html

Please contact me if you have questions or are interested in 
judging/stewarding.  The Big & Huge is a BJCP sanctioned event.

Cheers,

Mark Garthwaite, Big & Huge Czar


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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:41:07 -0600
From: DHinrichs at Quannon.com
Subject: hops poles


"Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Yeast Starter/bifenthrin/hops poles

>BTW - does anyone have any clever (cheap) ideas in tall hops poles for my
>garden ?

Since I have a fence yard (chain link) I purchased 3/4" electrical conduit
10' long. I then weaved them into the fencing to about 18" from the ground
(4' fence). I then topped them with a cross bar of conduit bent to sit on
top of the vertical poles in a big "U" total about 13' high. I run twine
down to the hill (I only have one plant). The whole setup waves in the wind
but does not seem to be a problem. cost less then $20. Note: you can buy
pre-bent corner peices at most home centers.

I also have a large bird house on a pole that is built out of 2" pipe. The
base is concrete with two poles extending up acting as supports for the main
center pole which is 20' high. The center pole pivots on a threaded rod
running across the two supports so it can be lowered. The center pole is
held in place by two pieces of angle iron bolted across the bottom of the
three poles. This design is often used for flag poles as well. cost about
$50. 

 *******************************************************
* Dave Hinrichs          E-Mail: dhinrichs at quannon.com *
* Quannon CAD Systems, Inc.      Voice: (952) 935-3367 *
* 6101 Baker Road, Suite 204       FAX: (952) 935-0409 *
* Minnetonka, MN 55345                                 *
*                http://www.quannon.com/               *
********************************************************


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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:23:04 -0600
From: allan.boyce at usbank.com
Subject: Upper Mississippi Mash-Out Homebrew Competition


The Minnesota Home Brewer's Association and the St.Paul Homebrewers are
pleased to announce a NEW Homebrew Contest!

THE UPPER MISSISSIPPI MASH-OUT!  Mpls / St.Paul, Minnesota

Entries Accepted:  April 12-21, 2002
Judging:           April 27-28, 2002
Awards Ceremony:   May 5, 2002  1:30pm - Summit Brewery, St.Paul

Entry Fee: $7 First Entry, $5 each for subsequent entries
           by the same brewer

Categories:  All BJCP categories, including Cider and Mead

For more information, go to: http://www.mnbrewers.com/mashout/

NOTE: If you can help us judge, write to Al Boyce at mash-out at nbrewer.com





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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:25:41 -0500
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Hop Trellis

Steve asks:
> does anyone have any clever (cheap) ideas in
> tall hops poles for my garden ?

I built my hop trellis from galvanized water pipe for ~$50.  It's about
18ft tall, and consists of a pair of 1-3/4in pipe (IIRC) supports in
parallel, set in concrete, on either side of a 1-3/4in pipe upright.
Nested inside this (as deep as I could shove it past the Chinese welds) is
a length of 1-1/4(?) pipe, with a Tee threaded to the top.  THROUGH the
Tee, is a length of 3/4in pipe, located with conduit hanger clamps.  Along
the 3/4 pipe are more of these same hangers, from which I string the twine
which the hops will climb on.

Buy pulling one of the through bolts at the base, I can swing the trellis
down in the spring to string the twine, and again at harvest time for easy
pickin'.  That is, assuming the  at #$%ing Japanese beetles haven't eaten
everything.

So far, it has survived 70+mph winds, including a devastating (very nearly
a tornado) storm, that sheared off thousands of trees, and tipped over a
nearby pivot irrigation system.  Haven't see a lightning strike on it yet,
but I keep watching ...


Here goes with the ASCII:

                  _____
*____*_____*_____*______*____*_____*____*
                | |         \
                | |          \
                | |        HOP TWINE ATTACHES
                | |           AT "*"s
                \ __
                   \
                \__
                | |\
                | |
                | |
          BOLT __| |__
               |   |
               |   |
               |   |
               |   |
               |   |
               |   |
               |   |
               |   |
               |   |
               |   |
     BOLT  _|  |_|   |_|  |__
             |  | |   | |  |
            |  | |   | |  |
     BOLT  _|  |_|   |_|  |__
             |  | |   | |  |
             |  |       |  |
- ---------------------------------------- GROUND LEVEL
         ####|  | ##### |  |####
         ####|  | ##### |  |####
         ####|  | ##### |  |####    QUICKRETE
         ####|  | ##### |  |####  /
         ####|  | ##### |  |####
         ####|  | ##### |  |####



Mark in Kalamazoo





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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:37:31 -0800
From: "J.Savage" <jonathansavage at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Filtering Brew Water

> Any thoughts on the possibility that this device will extract some
>valuable nutrients from the mash water?  The water comes through the =
filter
>clear and as far as I can tell, drinkable.  I drank a bit and it tasted
>like, well, water.  Could the filtering be adding harmful agents to the
>water?  C'mon, where are the chemists around here?=20

Good question - I reckon that it would probably work OK. The only way to =
really *know* what the filter set-up is (and is not) doing would be to =
analyze the water post filtration. We decided to use "whole house" =
filters for our brewing water. Total cost was maybe $35.- inclusive 2 =
filter elements and the fittings to allow us to attach it to the garden =
hose. A comparison between our water report and the filters published =
specs give me a fairly good idea of what my baseline filtered water is. =
We then add adjuncts accordingly.

Bests,

Jon
Long Beach, CA




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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:46:02 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: unusual techniques

Ray Daniels writes:

> Do you masticate your grains before 
> brewing!? 
> 
> If you have done any of this---or anything off-beat or 
> unusual in terms of brewing techniques---I want to hear from 
> you! Drop me a note at ray at aob.org.

First off, Ray, there is nothing unusual about masticating. 90% of brewers
do it, and the other 10% are lying.

Now, I do have a somewhat unusual technique, although I won't be writing Ray
for two reasons:

1. I'm still mad at him for not making DGB twice the size it is (Belgium?)
2. I am in no way a 'spurmenter. I do things in a very unscientific,
uncontrolled, open to misinterpretation way (FWIW, I still believe cold
fusion was discovered, it was just suppressed by the energy cartel). So any
proof that what I am doing is in anyway having a beneficial effect will have
to come from someone else.

Anyway, about a year ago, Steve Alexander wrote me about adding sulfites to
the mash. I have long since forgotten the details of what Steve wrote me,
and possibly I never really grasped them in the first place. However, what
came out of it was a decision to add potassium metabisulfite to my mash
water. I add about 3 grams to a typical mash water volume for my 8 gallon
batch sizes. I vaguely recall calculating this amount out based on what
Steve wrote me, whether I did it correctly is another matter.

Anyway, the intent is to use the sulfur dioxide generated to bind with
oxygen in the mash water so that it can't do nasty things which might lead
to... Oh no, you won't get me to say the H-acronym. It seems to me that if
*** does exist, the mash is a very inviting environment. Even if you
pre-boil the water, you will still entrain some air when mixing in the
grains unless you really want to go to extremes like cold dough-in,
underletting, things of that sort. Being lazy, I'll turn to chemicals
wherever possible.

I used this technique on two beers now approaching a year of age. A Koelsch
which turned out very nicely, and a Bock which turned out... Let's just say,
most people congratulated me on a pleasant brown ale. Typical storage is at
basement temps, which can fluctuate between 58-68F, not exactly ideal. Both
beers have held up reasonably well, and certainly don't seem stale. Not
trusting my own taste buds, I sent a Koelsch off to Drew Avis, who is BJCP
certified and humours me by writing nice, Kleinesque reviews of my beers.
Drew seemed to agree with my assessment, although he did point out a slight
musty or yeasty character. Perhaps that was just a result of being stirred
up in transport.

What does this prove? Simply that I'm adding sulfites to my mash water,
nothing more. The flapping of a butterfly's wings in Japan may have had as
much effect as the sulfites. And as Phil pointed out when he wasn't regaling
us with his dreams of Graham prancing in slow motion through the monsoons
with a pint of Tropical Flower Wit (there, try and get that image out of
your head), perhaps longevity is not really that big an issue with most
brewers. If you drink up your brews in a few months, mash abuse probably
doesn't make much difference. I would certainly encourage other brewers to
try this, and add their observations on any effects it might be having on
their beers, positive, negative or neutral.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:00:58 -0600
From: "Chuck Dougherty" <jdougherty at wlj.com>
Subject: Kaiser Doppel Malz clone

Greetings all--

While traveling in Austria recently, SWMBO and I had the opportunity to
try Kaiser Doppel Malz.  (Despite the use of "doppel" in the name, it is
only 4.7% abv, so I guess it would best be classified as a dunkel.)
This beer is tremendously sweet, downright candy-like.  I frankly don't
care for it, but SWMBO thinks this is the best beer she has ever tasted,
and I am therefore curious if anyone has ever tried to develop a clone.
I can of course think of several ways of making a sweeter dunkel, but I
would like to hear from anyone who has targeted this particular beer or
knows anything about how it is actually brewed.

Interestingly, this beer is quite different from the Kaiser "dark beer"
(inexplicably labeled in English) that I found in Hungary.  That beer is
more balanced, and to my taste at least, much more drinkable.

Chuck Dougherty
Little Rock, Arkansas


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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:09:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Odd brewing practices...

Greetings, Beerligns! Take me to your lager...

Ray Daniels writes:

> Do you masticate your grains before
> brewing!?
>
> If you have done any of this---or anything off-beat or
> unusual in terms of brewing techniques---I want to hear from
> you! Drop me a note at ray at aob.org.     

I wear a tutu and do interpretive dance while playing a lyre during each
step of the mash* (just ask Jim Suchy. He's seen it.). Does this count?

Hey - they say plants like music. The grist came from plants, right? In
trial after trial, I've found that this improves my efficiency, and adds a
subtly lunatic, malty sunset of effervescence to the aroma of the beer
body's garnet flavored mouthfeel (Ha! Top THAT, Klein!). Really: it all
makes sense, in a scary, twisted sort of way...


- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I have escaped the gravity of that particular flypaper. I have
shed my bonds and have risen like the mythical phoenix. This has
not been done to simply crash and burn upon the same desolate
shores from which the journey commenced. I have tasted of
freedom and have found that it...    ...tastes like chicken."
 - Me, responding to an invitation to return to my old job.


* OK, OK. So I was really wrestling loose hoses on my counterflow chiller
while jumping up and down in pain and frustration as scalding water ran
down my leg. It was sort of like interpretive dance. And the chiller could
be mistaken for a lyre. By a blind guy. A blind guy with no sense of what
shapes are. And, yeah: I don't truly mean to imply that my cursing
constitutes dulcimer tones. Alright, alright. And the tutu was my jacket
around my waste. But is was a fairly accurate desciption of what I do...

 -p (trying to remember what the mash smells like...)




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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:55:46 -0600
From: Gene Collins <GCollins at cranecarrier.com>
Subject: Re: How to kill yeast

The perferred method in wine circles is to add potassium sorbate that acts
as a fermentation inhibitor. This is the same ingredient used commercially
in apple and other types of juice to prevent the product from fermenting in
the bottle from airborne yeast strains.

To be completely organic in this approach, pastuerization seem to be your
only other choice, but this can damage some of the flavor components. A
longhold method used as a milk pasteurizing technique, would be to heat the
mead to 145 degrees for around 30 minutes and allow to cool slowly to room
temperature. The alternative method is called the High Temperature Short
Time (HTST) method which involves heating to 161 degrees and holding the
temperature for 15 seconds. This technique would probably affect the mead's
flavor the most. Most likely, you would want to do either of these in a
"double boiler" set-up where you don't head the mead directly, but six
gallons will be hard to manage. Good luck.

Gene Collins
Broken Arrow, OK



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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:59:05 -0500
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Maris Otter malt

Doug,

I've never used Munton's maris otter. I actually made my original Hunter's
Moon batch from Beeston's maris otter. My second batch (VERY close to the
first)  was made with Thomas Fawcett maris otter malt. It is an excellent
malt for all my English ales.

I got it from from North Country Malt supply in upstate NY, who is the
importer. A few club members get together twice a year and order full bags
from them. If you order 9 bags or more you can get a price break on shipping
by truck - about $9 to $9.50 per bag. They will only sell direct to persons
who are not within 100 miles (or so) of a retailer of their products, and it
looks like you fit that criteria since Fairfax is the closest location of a
retailer to you. They are very good to deal with, and the stuff usually
arrives within 2-3 days here in East Tennessee. They also have  Hugh Baird,
Weissheimer, & Malteries Franco-Belges malts (great pilsner, munichs,
vienna, caramunichs), so if you guys are interested in 350 lbs of maris
otter, you should be able to get up a 9 bag order when adding in these two.

Just a note on the recipe: I am absolutely convinced that the 6 hour boil is
the primary reason for the intense flavors in this brew. If there is any way
you can do it, boil for 6 hours - you'll be glad you did.

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew





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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:12:03 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: muntons grain

Doug asked about Muntons grain, and specifically Maris Otter variety.  I use
normal Muntons pale as a standard base grain.  Seems to work fine with no
major complaints.  I go through maybe 3 or 4 sacks a year.  Never a problem
with poor extraction or anything.  Color seems okay also.  It may produce a
slight chill haze as normal at cold serving temps.  I have ordered a sack of
Maris Otter from Muntons also.  No complaints either.  NOthing really super
magical about it though.  It wasn't grossly different tasting in beer form
than normal Muntons although I did not brew same recipes with either.

I think if you want the cream of the crop, you want to get floor malted
Maris Otter which is not the Muntons stuff.  Although I have never used
floor malted stuff either.

Good luck.

Pete Czerpak
albany, NY


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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:33:49 -0600
From: stpats <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: Conicals

I'm a little confused by the use of the racking port for bottling, or 
even kegging. In fact, I'm not even sure why its called a "racking" 
port.

Commercial versions of these steep conical fermenters are called 
"unitanks" because they can be used for both primary fermentation and 
aging. Yeast and trub can be drawn off the bottom thus eliminating 
the need for racking.  It seems to me that using the bottom valve for 
bottling would be simple---just draw off any sediment first.  I think 
the primary reason for the "racking" port is actually as a sample 
port---to monitor the progress of the fermentation. Commercial tanks 
can be pressurized, so the beer can be naturally carbonated by simply 
closing up the tank when the gravity reaches some point.  Some tanks 
have a port for force carbonation as well. I'm really not sure in 
commercial applications where the beer is transferred to a Grundy for 
example, if the racking port is used or if they simply dump the 
sediment and use the bottom valve.

I guess my point is that the racking port does not appear to be at 
all necessary for bottling or kegging.

But perhaps I'm overlooking something. Do those who bottle from the 
racking port have some reason for not using the bottom valve? For not 
drawing off the sediment before bottling?  And if you first draw off 
all the sediment, then you eliminate the problem of stirring up 
sediment when you add priming sugar.

The reason I'm curious about this is that we're finishing up our new 
conicals and the whole issue of offering a simple sample port (no 
rotating arm) like those on large wine storage tanks vs one with a 
rotating arm is an issue. Its trivial to offer either or both but I 
want to be sure I'm not selling a bill of goods.

Lynne
- -- 
St. Patrick's of Texas Brewers Supply
512-989-9727
www.stpats.com


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