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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Odd brewing practices... (Jeff Renner)
  Subject: Barley Wine Ale ("Eric R. Lande")
  Connicals ("Jim Busch")
  Diacetyl rest in the bottle (Bill Frazier)
  RIMS temperature control ("Norman L. Brewer")
  Mini-keg Bung Temperature Tolerance (Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger)
  Re: Rims configuration ("Robert Humphrey")
  Re: Pressure Relief ("Michael O'Donnell")
  US Plastics Conical (John Maylone)
  re: Partial Mashes ("Mark Tumarkin")
  RE: Bottling procedure ("Steve Jones")
  RE:adjustable pressure relief ("Walter H. Lewis III")
  RE: adjustable pressure relief/Maple wine ("Eric Ahrendt")
  Re: Conical & chilling idea (Jeff Renner)
  alcohol-free beer (ensmingr)
  Conical Racking Tubes ("Jim Bermingham")
  RE: Hop shoots (Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger)
  Baltic porters (Greg Remake)
  Hop Rhizomes (Bill Wible)
  Off flavor in tap system ("Doug Hurst")
  sanitizing bottles (Steve Tighe)
  Baltic Porter ("David Craft")
  Re: Why use a "racking port"? (David Towson)
  hop shoots (Marc Morency)
  Partial Mashes (Al Klein)
  First Partial Mash (Al Klein)
  RIMS (Al Klein)
  Re: baby hops and hops sprouts ("Dave and Joan King")


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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:44:52 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Odd brewing practices...

Most of us compost, but here's what Pat Babcock claims he does with 
his - he dresses it:

>the tutu was my jacket around my waste.

Actually, I guess that would help hold in the heat produced by 
composting.  Should speed things up.

Jeff
(feeling no more silly than Pat evidently did!)
- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:05:19 -0500
From: "Eric R. Lande" <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Subject: Barley Wine Ale

In HBD #3899 Mike Mullins says that he is worried that his barley wine
won't have enough yeast in suspension to carbonate in the bottle.  I
would guess, Mike, that there is still yeast available.  The best way to
be sure, however, would be to Kraeusen the batch to be bottled at a rate
of 4-6 liters of actively fermenting wort per barrel to be bottled.  This
comes from "Barley Wine" by Fal Allen & Dick Cantwell, part of the
Classic Beer Style book series.


Eric Lande
Doylestown, PA


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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:01:20 -0500
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Connicals

on the concept of a tank within a tank and running glycol
 through the center, the idea is valid as this is how pro 
CCF are fabricated, doublewalled but the inside is wrapped 
with piping to contain the glycol.  As for using a frige for the 
chilling capacity of the glycol resevoir, I tried this when I 
first setup my 1BBL uni at home.  The problem is that
during high krausen, the heat generated by the fermentation
rapidly consumes the reserved chilling resevoir, and the
frige has a hard time to rechill the glycol.  Eventually you 
BTW, the biggest heat load is during high krausen, so
post ferment you can drop the temp over time to cold 
condition. I then purchased a real glycol chiller from 
Rapids, the type used for long draw tap systems.  This 
works since the resevoir is cooled by immersion coils
that sit inside the glycol.  IMO , the biggest drawback to 
low cost CCF's for homebrewers is chilling.  Without 
chilling in some form, you are really limited to estery 
ales/Belgians and anything that can stand ferment
temps in the high 70sF.  Cheapest solution is to place
the unit inside a cold room/frige of some sort, but this
is still just passive cooling that can lead to highly 
variable temps inside the tank.

Lynne wonders about the racking ports.  Pro CCFs 
have three dispense ports of significance, the sample port 
for the Zwickel, the bottom yeast/protein drop 
triclover/butterfly, and of course the racking port with
rotatable arm.  In larger units, this is very useful to have
to help reduce the protein/yeast load on the filter.  Its
even useful on my 1 BBL version.  Im not so certain it 
would be required in sizes less than  15 gals, as the 
distance between the racking port and the bottom port 
are very small.  If you do have a racking port, 
I advise to have it double plumbed with triclovers so you 
can rotate the arm in place to get clearer beer during the bulk 
transfer and then rotate down to get the last more turbid beer. 

As for carbonating, most pros do spund the tank to capture 
C02 but to finish the carbonation to the right degree the 
carbonating stone is placed in the brite beer tank prior to 
packaging.  (Being able to spund the tank and also move 
the beer under CO2 pressure is one of my favorite features
of the CCF but this does come with a higher price).  Designing
CCFs for homebrewers is a serious challenge due to cost
tradeoffs.  Most homebrewers scoff at the idea of a tank
that costs 1K or more, but to really get the most out of such
a design requires a considerable investment.  Perhaps
the hobby could use one low end/low cost design and one
high end SS pressure and CIP capable one.

Prost!

Jim Busch




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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 05:32:24 -0600
From: Bill Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Diacetyl rest in the bottle

Yesterday I responded to a question posted by Darrell Levitt. He asked "I
know that a diacetyl rest at the end of fermentation is generally called for
with a lager/pilsner..but I wonder...could this rest be performed after
bottling?"

My answer..."sure, you can do a diacetyl rest after bottling. However, you
would be better served by doing a diacetyl rest in a carboy so the diacetyl
can escape thru the air lock. After bottling, everything will remain in the
beer."

I've been reminded by several that this is incorrect. I appreciate the
correction as I hate passing on momilies or poor info. The diacetyl doesn't
escape but is metabolized by the yeast. I agree totally with this...did
some remedial reading of my Noonan. I've been a proponent, for years, of
leaving the beer on the primary yeast until fermentation is complete. I
made enough beer, early in my brewing experience, that finished with high
FGs and all kinds of funky flavors to have learned that lesson. Yeast makes
beer.

My take on diacetyl rests is...they should be performed before bottling,
before the beer is racked off it's big yeast sediment in the fermenter. I
had always assumed (dangerous) that part of this process was venting of some
fermentation by-products that you wouldn't want in the beer. Of course,
the diacetyl is not venting but is being processed by the yeast.

However,  I'm not sure Darrell can accomplish what he wants after the beer 
has been
racked off the active yeast cake and is in the confinement of the 
bottle.   Bottled beer does go changes after it is conditioned.  Rough 
flavors fade and the true nature of the beer comes through.
Yeast does this but I don't know how much the small amount of bottling 
yeast can handle.  There are some beers bottled with yeast and high 
diacetyl (Redhook comes to mind but I'm not sure it contains yeast any 
more).  The diacetyl remains in the beer so perhaps there's not enough 
yeast left to process the diacetyl.

Anyway, sorry for any miss-information on this subject.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas 



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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:28:21 -0500
From: "Norman L. Brewer" <norman_brewer at nishanet.com>
Subject: RIMS temperature control

Steven Parfitt asks several questions about RIMS temperature control



1.  Why doesn't the RIMS heater deactivate enzymes?



It will if you aren't careful.  Two key factors are circulation rate and
temperature control (discussed below).  The circulation rate is controlled by
how fast the wort drains through your filter or screen.  On my system I can
get about 1 gallon/minute of flow initially, and that rate increases as the
temperature rises and the mash process converts more starch to sugar.   So
what sort of temperature rise would we see in the circulating wort with a 1250
watt heater and a 1 gallon per minute flow?



1250 watts * 1 (BTU/sec) / 1055 watts = 1.18 btu/sec



1 gallon/minute * 8lb/gallon * 1 minute/60sec = .133 lb/sec



temperature rise = heat/(m*Cp) where Cp is heat capacity of water ~ 1 btu/(lb
deg F)



temp rise across heater = 1.18/.133 = 8.85 degrees F.



On my system, I have to throttle the pump output do keep from pumping faster
than the wort can drain through the grain bed.  If I pump too fast, the pump
starts sucking air, loses its prime, and I have to shut it off and let the
liquid build up again.  1 gallon per minute seems about the best I can
routinely sustain.  So without a good control system you could easily overheat
the wort.  If the flow were cut in half, the temperature increases doubles to
17 degrees without some sort of control.  The key to good control is the
placement of the temperature measurement, as discussed below.



2.  How can the controller reach the desired output temperature?



PID controllers have a measurement, which in this case is the RIMS temperature
measurement, and a setpoint, which is what the user wants the temperature to
be.  The controller error is calculated as the difference between the setpoint
and the measurement.  The controller output is the percentage of time the RIMS
heater is on  and is in the range of 0 to 100%.  The proportional gain of the
controller determines how much a change in the error affects the controller's
output.  By adjusting the gain of the controller, you create a "proportional
band" around the setpoint, and if the measurement is within the proportional
band, then the controller output will be in the range of 0 to 100.  If the
measurement is outside of the proportional band, then the controller output
will be either 0 or 100 and will not change with changes in the measurement.
If the controller is set up properly, the proportional band is only 1-2
degrees around the setpoint.  So if the measurement is 135 and the setpoint is
150, then the controller output will remain full on until the temperature
reaches 149, and then will quickly cut back as the temperature approaches 150.



The above discussion describes the P or proportional part of a PID
controller's output.  The proportional output is determined by changes in
error.  The Integral or I part of a PID controller's output is determined by
the magnitude of the error.  If an error persists, the integral action of the
controller keeps making changes to the output in order to drive the error to
zero.  For RIMS systems, the contribution of the D or derivative action to the
controller's output is not significant and the D tuning factor should be
turned off.



So how do you achieve good RIMS temperature control?  The first principal is
to place the measurement as close as possible to the heater.  My RIMS system
has the measurement just downstream of the heater in the piping that returns
the wort to the tun.  Although I really want to control the RIMS mash tun
temperature, controlling the temperature of the liquid flowing into the mash
tun results in good mash tun temperature control.  You can't really measure
any difference in temperature between the returning wort and the main body of
the tun once the temperature comes to steady state.  Placing the measurement
in the recirculating wort has the added advantage in that you never overheat
the wort, which could deactivate enzymes.  If you place the measurement in the
mash tun itself, then the temperature of the circulating wort could rise well
above the desired mash tun temperature, especially if the temperature
measurement is in a place where it doesn't see good circulation.  The worst
possible location for the temperature sensor would be at the inlet to the
heater, because this provides the longest delay between the controller output
and measurement  As a rule, delay = degraded control with control systems.







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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:44:16 -0500
From: Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger <katerob at erols.com>
Subject: Mini-keg Bung Temperature Tolerance

Thanks to Paul Kensler's advice, I've built a Rubbermaid cooler
mash/lauter tun using mini-keg bungs and pipe nipple as bulkhead
fittings, and am really happy with the results over several batches.  

I'm thinking of using the same arrangement to make a hopback (BYO
project from October 2001 issue) in place of the fittings recommended in
the parts list for the project.  Why?  Because I've got the mini-keg
bungs, I've used them before and liked the results, and I just have to
modify something.

Here's the question: I'm wondering if anyone has information on the
temperature tolerance of rubber mini-keg bungs (Fass Frisch) -- 170F is
no problem, but near-boiling wort will be running through the hopback,
and I could easily go with the brass fittings on the list before I go
ahead with the project.

Private e-mail is fine. 

- --Rob Hanson
the Closet Brewery
Cheverly, MD

- -----------
Life, alas, is very drear. 
Up with the glass! 
Down with the beer! 
- --Louis Untermeyer


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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:17:40 -0600
From: "Robert Humphrey" <romeohotel at ev1.net>
Subject: Re: Rims configuration

 "Steven Parfitt" asked about Rims control, and I may be able to clear, or
muddy , things up.

"I've got a WATLOW PID controller and power TRIAC to control the heater with
(Thanks John) so I shouldn't have any trouble with that."
An excellent choice.  I'm assuming you have a 965 series temperature
controller.  These are great temp. controllers, but you need to know a
little about process measurement and controls.  You described your heating
element as " I used a screw in hot
water heating element, and can swap them out to select different heat
densities. I plan on using a 4500W 230VAC unit at 115VAC for 1125W, with a
3500W 230VAC element as an option of 875W at 115VAC.  I can always put a
blocking diode series with the element to cut that in half, so I have
options for 1125, 875, 562.5, and 437.5 Watts, so Scorched wort shouldn't be
a problem."
Basically you are describing a temperature control element that will either
be turned on, or turned off, as opposed to an element that can be turned on
in increments.  This negates the use of a "pid" controller.   Instead you
will be doing what is called "on/off control".  Luckily, the watlow series
965 can be programmed for on/off control, however, as you described you
worries, this is not the most accurate way to control temperature, as it
usually involves either long warm up times, or over run of the target
(called "setpoint") temperature.  If you had a way to control the voltage
(and thereby control the power) to your heating element you could use the
pid function of this controller.  The 965 has an auto tune function that
will set the derivative ("d", otherwise known as "rate") to maximum
efficiency where the controller will allow the setpoint to be reached
quickly, yet by monitoring the "rate" of temperature change it will keep
from overshooting the setpoint.  I like the Watlow, and use one to control
my herms, but I do this for a living and can get variable drives quite
cheaply.  If I can be of help, please feel free to email me direct.
Robert



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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:11:00 -0800
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Pressure Relief

"Does anyone know how to make an adjustable pressure
relief valve that can be attached to gas QD of a corny
keg."

Hi David,

I made one by going to McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com) and buying an
"Adjustable Brass Vacuum / Pressure relief valve"
Part # 48935K25 for $7.33... it has a 1/4" NPT fitting on it... attach your
favorite pipe-to-tubing fitting, add a short bit of tubing and attach it to
a gas disconnect.  I use this setup to release pressure when I am filtering
and use the same valve on my counter-pressure bottle filler.

When you get it, mine was set up as a vacuum valve... needed to take it
apart and swap the ball and spring, but that takes a second and needs no
tools.

One disclaimer; next to using the final product, my favorite part of this
hobby is building the gear.  If you'd rather just have one, you can buy it
ready-made.  Check www.morebeer.com (no affiliation, yadayada) and search
for an adjustable pressure relief valve.  Unless you can tag the McMaster
part onto a work order to not pay shipping, this actually might be a
cheaper option.

cheers,
mike



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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:11:48 -0800
From: John Maylone <mrkoala at mac.com>
Subject: US Plastics Conical



I need to correct an error in an earlier post.  The US Plastics conical
#9349 does NOT come with a stand...this is item #9352 and runs an additional
$103.52...more than the plastic cone itself.  Back to the drawing board for
mois.........


John Maylone
Tollhouse, CA




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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 06:50:42 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Partial Mashes

you wrote:
I've got one of those
"whirly-gig" sparge arms.  It's fun to use.  If my wife isn't busy, she'll
put on her leopard print Sparge Queen costume.  She raises her scepter and
proclaims, "Let the sparge begin."  I turn the valve and make noises of an
hydraulic kind.  Water sprays out and the arm turns around.  It's supposed
to raise efficiency


gee, Mark,

I read about your 'sparging ritual' with great interest, a video would be
awesome - sure to be a big seller in homebrew shops everywhere. Do you think
it's the leopard print costume or the water noise chant that raises
efficiency?  ;>)

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL




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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 07:45:32 -0500
From: "Steve Jones" <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: RE: Bottling procedure

I thought I'd chime in on sharing my bottling procedure, too.

First, I always rinse my bottles very well right after pouring, and
stand upside down in the drainer. The next day I take them downstairs
and store them in cases upside down.

On bottling day (I use a CP filler, but I'd do the same with
conditioning) I take out the number of cases of bottles I'll need, then
set up a sort of assembly line process like so, sort of in a
semi-circular fashion:
  Cases of clean bottles to right of sink on floor
  5 gallon bucket of iodophor in front of sink on floor.
  bottle tree to left of sink
  cp filler (with bench capper) to left of bottle tree
  empty cases to left of filler.

I start by putting 12 bottles in the iodophor for about 10 minutes, then
pulling them out and put on tree (no rinsing). Immediately put 12 more
bottles in iodophor. repeat one more time, so there are 24 bottles on
tree and 12 in bucket when I begin filling.

While a bottle is filling, I pull two bottles from iodophor, drain, and
put on tree. When all bottles are out of the bucket, I begin adding two
at a time to the bucket while a bottle is filling. I continue this
process until the keg is dry, then hook up the next keg (if I'm doing
more than one) and continue.

I don't rinse, don't care if the bottles are dry, because the residual
amount of iodophor just isn't enough to detect in the beer. Often the
bottles are only in the iodophor for a few minutes, but when you put
them on the tree, the inside is still wet, which in my book still counts
toward the contact time. By the time I fill the bottle, it has been at
least 20 minutes of contact time. I've been doing it this way for 4
years and can only remember one bad bottle in all that time, and I've
re-used bottles at least 6 or 8 times without any washing or brushing.

It works for me.

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew




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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:04:53 -0500
From: "Walter H. Lewis III" <wlewis at alliedlogistics.com>
Subject: RE:adjustable pressure relief

An adjustable pressure relief valve is easy to build. I got the relief
valve from
Surplus Center
800-488-3407

part #4-1303 Pressure Relief Valve $3.99
Brand new Norgren 25-50psi.

I took a brass "T" fitting, attatched an "in" quick disconnect to one
leg of the "T", a pressure guage to one and the relief valve to the
third. From here you begin fermentation and watch the guage. When you
reach your desired pressure, slowly open the relief valve until you hear
gas escaping and then tighten back down a tiny bit. This will maintain a
constant pressure quite well and does a great job of having finished,
carbonated beer at the end of fermentation.

Walt Lewis
Huntington WV
GHHA




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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:00:56 -0500
From: "Eric Ahrendt" <Rock67 at PeoplePC.com>
Subject: RE: adjustable pressure relief/Maple wine

David Passaretti asks:

"Does anyone know how to make an adjustable pressure
relief valve that can be attached to gas QD of a corny
keg. This way I could replace the airlock with the
pressure relief valve somewhere towards the end of
fermentation and not worry about too much pressure
build up"

I've thought about doing this myself.  Without going into the details of the
fittings required, why don't you plumb up a gas pressure requlator to
whatever port you are using to vent CO2?  You can then set the regulator to
vent any gas that builds over your setpoint.  An accurate low pressure gauge
would help a lot (I'm fortunate enough to have one.) Then you just need to
calculate the PSI required at the desired volumes CO2 at the temperature
you're working with.

As far as the regulator goes, any regulator meant to be used with compressed
air would work. Look in the tool section of the big home stores.  Any gauge
you're likely to find there will be very cheap and not accurate at the
pressures we're talking about.  You'll probably just have to 'spurment. I
figure this is an easy (lazy) way to hit the correct carbonation every time.

On another note, the maple sap is running like crazy here right now.  I've
collected almost 20 gallons out of the big tree next to the driveway.
Gravity of the sap clocks in at right around 1.008.  Does this sound right?
Anybody have any suggestions for what gravity I should stop boiling at if I
want to make staight maple wine/beer? (Time to go change the propane tank!)
Thanks.

Eric Ahrendt
Fremont, OH USA



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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:15:31 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Conical & chilling idea

Lonzo McLaughlin <lonkelm at yahoo.com> suggests fabricating a plastic 
water jacket for a plastic conical fermenter and asks

>What do you think?  Any other ideas?

How about an immersion chiller/attemperator?  You could use the same 
immersion chiller you use for brewing and hook it up as Mark Ohrstrom 
suggested.  Sounds a lot simpler than either Mark's suggestion of 
another (stainless steel) conical or making a jacket.

BTW, back to the 50 gallons of CAP that we brewed for the 2000 NHC. 
We used Mike O'Brien's (pico-Brewing Systems) stainless 
cylindro-conical fermenter.  It is bigger than we needed - maybe 80 
gallons?) and has a cooling jacket.  Mike rigged up a half barrel 
Sankey of glycol in a home freezer next to this beast and hooked a 
pump up to a thermostat connected to a probe in the fermenter.  It 
did a dandy job of maintaining 50F during fermentation, then he 
dropped the temperature over several days to 32F for lagering.  Seems 
to me it could even hold pressure and that we carbonated in it before 
transferring to kegs prior to bottling.

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:29:34 -0500
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: alcohol-free beer

Over the years, some HBD'rs have been interested in making
alcohol-free homebrew. Just saw the article below which might
interest ya'll. I wonder how their beer tasted? And if their
yeast is available?

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
- -----
Biotechnol Appl Biochem 2002 Apr;35(Pt 2):133-40
Production of non-alcoholic beer using free and immobilized cells
of Saccharomyces cerevisiae deficient in the tricarboxylic acid
cycle.

Navratil M, Domeny Z, Sturdik E, Smogrovicova D, Gemeiner P.

Department of Biochemical Technology, Faculty of Chemical and
Food Technology, Slovak University of Technology, Radlinskeho 9,
SK-81237 Bratislava, Slovak Republic.

Production of non-alcoholic beer using Saccharomyces cerevisiae
has been studied. Non-recombinant mutant strains with a defect in
the synthesis of tricarboxylic-acid-cycle enzymes were used and
applied in both free and pectate-immobilized form, using both
batch and packed-bed continuous systems. After fermentation,
basic parameters of the beer produced by five mutant strains were
compared with a standard strain of brewing yeast. Results showed
that the beer prepared by mutant yeast cells was characterized by
lower levels of total alcohols, with ethanol concentrations
between 0.07 and 0.31% (w/w). The organic acids produced,
especially lactic acid, in concentrations up to 1.38 g small
middle dotl(-1) had a strong protective effect on the microbial
stability of the final product and thus the usual addition of
lactic acid could be omitted. Application of the yeast mutants
appears to be a good alternative to the classical methods for the
production of non-alcoholic beer.




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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:54:06 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Conical Racking Tubes



I'm not sure what Lynne O'Connor or St. Pats has done to ruffle Wayne Holder
AKA Zyme's feathers. I thought the response to Lynne's questions by Danny
Johnson was excellent. Also, those given by Art Tyszka, Bill Pierce and
Brian Lundeen were good answers to her question. I would have answered her
question but I didn't know the answer. I bought mine with a racking port
because it made the whole thing look neater. I have my conical setting in
the den, and when people stop by, I point the thingie out and tell them 
That's the racking port". It seems to impress them. They always nod their
head and utter "OK", then I point to the next thingie and tell them "This is
the dump port" Again they nod their head and say "OK" By that time my wife
usually comes over and leads them off some where and I stand by my toy
waiting on the next guest to ask "What the hell is that?
The HBD is usually a great source in getting your questions on Home Brewing
supplies, equipment and techniques answered. The dumbest of the dumb, the
list that I head up (sorry Phil), can ask questions without the fear of
being flamed too bad. Wayne napalmed Lynne. Of course it could be, being a
grown man and having people call him "AKA Zyme" is what has his feathers
ruffled. I get my feathers ruffled sometimes because of my name too. When
you start putting your name on a form and the space provided has only enough
room for people with the last name containing 7 letters, I get ruffled
feathers. If I ever find out that Lynne designed those forms she had better
look out. Talk about flaming someone.

Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX


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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:50:12 -0500
From: Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger <katerob at erols.com>
Subject: RE: Hop shoots

Hans Aikema writes:

>And, did anyone ever eat hop sprouts  (expensive? tasty?) 


  Last spring around this time on my first trip to Belgium, my wife and
I splurged and went out to dinner while in Bruges at Den Dyver -- a beer
cuisine restaurant.  Each course was served with a tasting size (6 oz or
so -- though sometimes you got the whole bottle) of a beer they'd paired
with the dish.  I specifically went for the menu with the hop shoot
salad on it, since I had been dreaming about getting one for months,
once I had realized we'd be there in the season.  It was delicious, but
I couldn't tell you if it was the dressing, my long expectation, or the
two beers I had at Bruges Beertje (a beer bar) before dinner. The dinner
was more expensive than any other we had while in Belgium, but not too
bad (even for a couple on two nonprofit salaries)

  Anyway, if you have enough hop shoots (or know someone who does) give
the hop shoot salad a try!  I think there might even be a recipe for it
in one of Michael Jackson's books (but I can't say for sure).  And, if
you're in Holland, maybe you could pop over to Belgium for a day
sometime soon to scout out a salad?


- --Rob Hanson
the Closet Brewery
Cheverly, MD

Life, alas, is very drear. 
Up with the glass! 
Down with the beer! 
- --Louis Untermeyer


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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:38:31 -0600
From: Greg Remake <gremake at gsbpop.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Baltic porters

Thanks to those who posted here and replied to me with your information 
about Baltic porters.  Tom Gardner sent me the following link and 
directions to a very informative discussion on his club's website, 
including a well thought out draft for style guidelines.  Also in the 
discussion is a link to Dave Brockington's interesting reviews of a number 
of commercial Baltics.  I'm still formulating my recipe, but it will use 
plenty of Vienna, Munich, and crystals with some dark roasted malts and a 
mild hopping rate, maybe only FWH.

- ---------------------

Subject:         Baltic Porter
     Date:         Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:05:49 EST
    From:         TomAGardner at cs.com
        To:         gremake at gsbpop.uchicago.edu

Greg, A guy in my homebrew club has been exploring the style and just posted
some ideas on the club website. Check out www.foamontherange.org and go to
the message section under the all about beer subsection. Enjoy, Tom

- ---------------------

Cheers!

Greg



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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:31:03 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Hop Rhizomes

I have a rhizome called Glacier, which I am not able to find
info on anywhere.  Anybody know about this hop, or where I
can find info on it?  A web search turned up nothing but
Alaska and places in Alaska.  Go figure.  I waded through
the results for awhile, then gave up.

Thanks!

Bill




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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:50:04 -0600
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: Off flavor in tap system

Thanks to a couple of suggestions from the collective re: using air tool
fittings to get my CO2 through the freezer door, I have a fully
operational two tap upright kegerator.  But now I have a new problem,
which I hope someone can help me solve.  

Since I currently am out of homebrew (blasphemy!) I decided to fill a
Cornie with filtered water to have carbonated water on tap.  It works
great.  However, I have been noticing a very prominent chemical-like
(plastic?) flavor and aroma in the water.  It occurs in the first glass
I draw off after it has been sitting  a couple hours.  I assume that the
flavor/aroma is coming from the water that has been in prolonged contact
with the 3/16" beer line I purchased from B3.  What I don't understand
is why.  Their website states:

"Beer line is not the same as hardware store tubing. All of our beer
line is odorless, tasteless, and non-toxic FDA rated clear tubing. All
lines have 1/8" thick walls and are rated for use in gas line
applications as well."

They don't say what the tubing is made of, and, I don't know much about
plastic.  I'd like to eliminate this problem because, while I don't mind
throwing out the first glass of water, I would mind throwing out the
first glass of homebrew.  Additionally, it makes me worry about what
chemicals I'm drinking.  Any ideas how to get rid of the problem?

Thanks,

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[215, 264.5] Rennerian


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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:01:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Tighe <steve_tighe at yahoo.com>
Subject: sanitizing bottles 

Well, now that I went ahead and made my first post the
other day, I may as well keep going.

My bottle sanitizing procedure is wrapped up in my
overall sanitizing approach during the bottling
process. It probably sounds more complex than it
really is.

Like most everyone else, I rinse out my bottles as
soon as they're empty. I collect 'em in old 12-pack
holders (often empty wine cases, since they're tall
enough to hold both 12 and 22-ounce bottles). When
I've got a full box, I soak them in a bucket in a
solution of Straight-A cleanser (BTW, I don't see too
much about this stuff on HBD; any thoughts about it as
opposed to PBW or other products - it's worked well
for me) for awhile - a couple hours to overnight. With
all but the most stubborn labels (the worst seem to be
Sam Adams and Russian River) this is enough to remove
them easily. I give the bottles a good scrub with my
bottle brush and rinse them a couple times, and put
them back in the case upside down.

On bottling day the first thing I do is fill up a
carboy (which I use as a bottling "bucket) with
iodophor. While that soaks I go get the secondary and
start boiling my corn sugar solution. After about 10
minutes I siphon the iodophor from the carboy into a
bucket, which also gives my siphon some good contact
time with the sanitizer. I then immerse 12 bottles
into the bucket of iodophor, pour the sugar water into
the carboy, and rack the beer into the carboy.

When the transfer is done, I dump out the iodophor
from the first 12 bottles, put the next 12 into the
bucket, and fill/cap the first round. When that's done
I repeat till the carboy is empty.

Like I said it probably seems more complex than it is.
My procedure has evolved over time till I can do the
whole thing - start to cleanup - for a five-gallon
batch in about an hour and a half. And it lets me
sanitize everything on bottling day with one
five-gallon batch of sanitizer. 

Of course, soon it'll be time to experiment with my
new (well, used) kegging system! You may see another
post in a week or so about that...

Steve Tighe
Berkeley CA
(pretty far west and a little south of Jeff Renner)



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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:14:16 -0500
From: "David Craft" <chsyhkr at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Baltic Porter

Greetings,

Baltic Porter sounds like a great sub-style to add to the current list of
entries. It has history and heritage and is distinctly different.  A fellow
brewer is my town brewed one by accident a few years ago and it turned me
into an all grain brewer. After tasting that beer and looking at his grain
bill, I knew I had to brew all grain.

 I am finishing up the last of three batches started last night.  English
Pale, Oud Bruin, and Belgian Dark Strong..............

How about it, let's add Baltic Porter to the list!   I plan on making one
this fall.

Regards,

David B. Craft
Battleground Brewers Homebrew Club
Crow Hill Brewery and Meadery
Greensboro, NC



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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:33:41 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Why use a "racking port"?

      In Homebrew Digest #3900 (March 28, 2002), Lynne O'Connor asked why 
one would use a side "racking port" on a conical fermenter instead of just 
dumping the yeast from the bottom port and then bottling/kegging through 
that.  Two reasons come to mind.

      First, I have found that well sedimented yeast, particularly if the 
beer has been cooled to lager temperatures, can be very reluctant to come 
out through a half-inch ball valve without some prodding with a sanitized 
rod or similar object.  I prefer to do that after the beer has been drawn 
off so I can stir the yeast up all I want without it causing a 
problem.  Yeast compaction is probably not a problem in a commercial 
unitank because (1) it is high enough to have a good static head, and (2) 
it has a much larger valve.  But in a little homebrew tank with only about 
a foot-and-a-half of beer, there isn't much static head to get the yeast 
moving.

      The other thing I've noted is that yeast tends to cling to the 
sloping side of the cone, and then dribble out over time.  That might be 
desirable for bottle conditioning, since a little yeast is needed for that 
to occur.  But for kegging with forced carbonation, yeast in the keg is a 
nuisance.

      I debated with myself for quite a while before committing to pay the 
price for the rotating arm on my conical, but I have never regretted 
getting it.  It allows me to get clear beer out with ease, and then mess 
with the yeast later.

Dave



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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:31:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Marc Morency <marco_brau at yahoo.com>
Subject: hop shoots

Two things:

First, like Hans, I'm also considering growing hops
and need to know how much heighth the hops need to
grow. Can hops run also a fence (horizontal), or do
they need to grow up?

BTW, the small hop plants (shoots) can be tasty, but
I've only had the pickled version.

=====
______________________________________________
Do you like beer? Have you thought of making your own?
Check the Marcobrau Beer Pages - (http://marcobrau.com)



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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:57:07 -0500
From: Al Klein <rukbat at optonline.net>
Subject: Partial Mashes

> Mark Anderson said:

>It came out at 1.052.  I used an ounce of Cascade
>for flavor and found it a bit much for my tastes.  I was brewing an amber
>and got an IPA.

With one ounce of Cascade and an OG of 52?  That's more an APA.  And
not all that hoppy an APA either.  After drinking 5 gallons of it you
may agree.
- ---
[Apparent Rennerian 567.7, 95.9] 
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net


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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:57:08 -0500
From: Al Klein <rukbat at optonline.net>
Subject: First Partial Mash

Steve Tighe asked:

>Cascade whole hops (assume for now 5.75%)
>1.25 oz 60 min
>1 oz 20 min 
>1 oz at end of boil
> .75 oz dry hop in secondary (probably in a mesh bag)

>One question I have is on the flavor/aroma/dry hops. I
>basically picked those amounts at random, and made it
>all add up to 4 oz because that's the lot size my
>local shop sells hops in. I don't *have* to use the
>whole package; will this amount blow me away? I love
>hops, but you can, too, have too much!! I'd like a
>nice, full hoppy flavor and aroma without puckering!

Are you familiar with Cascade?  Do you like it?  Your recipe isn't too
bitter, but it will have a fair amount of Cascade flavor, sort of like
a bit of grapefruit in your beer.
- ---
[Apparent Rennerian 567.7, 95.9] 
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net


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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:57:09 -0500
From: Al Klein <rukbat at optonline.net>
Subject: RIMS

Steven Parfitt said:

>I plan on using a 4500W 230VAC unit at 115VAC for 1125W, with a 
>3500W 230VAC elelment as an option of 875W at 115VAC.  I can always put a 
>bolcking diode series with the element to cut that in half, so I have 
>options for 1125, 875, 562.5, and 437.5 Watts, so Scorched wort shouldn't be 
>a problem.

A single 4500 watt element and a 15 amp dimmer would be even more
versatile.  The element is resistive so any old dimmer would do.

>Secondly, how to get to target temp? My temp feedback sensor is in the top 
>of the RIMS chamber. If I set the PID for my target temp, I'll never get 
>there, or will take forever. If the PID is trying to hold 153, and my mash 
>is at 135, the PID will turn on to heat wort returning to the tun to 153. As 
>the inlet temp drops, the PID will cut back on the heater drive and 
>asemtotically approach the target temp, but my delta T will drop. How do I 
>get there in a timely manner, unless I set my PID above the target temp, and 
>shut it off when I reach target?

Move the sensor to just a little downstream of the heater and have the
controller control the power to the element?
- ---
[Apparent Rennerian 567.7, 95.9] 
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net


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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:56:11 -0500
From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: baby hops and hops sprouts

Steamed hop sprouts are very good, sort of like asparagus, but pleasantly
bitter.  Get them before they get woody.  They turn a very saturated green
color.  Yummmmm.

          Dave King (BIER)



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---