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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Thanks and a few very Random Thoughts... (Kevin Elsken)
  Diacetyl and CCF ("Ayotte, Roger C")
  Glacier hops (Mark Kellums)
  Re: hops sprouts (Pietro Toniolo)
  On/Off and PIDS (AJ)
  Re: Mini-keg Bung Temperature Tolerance ("Angie and Reif Hammond")
  cleaning the outside of a immersion chiller (Ralph Link)
  Conical cooling ("Gene")
  LEAD IN BRASS FITTINGS ("George Krafcisin")
  Conicals/Clearfine ("Brian M Dotlich")
  Re: Killing yeast ("Gene")
  Both a Wort Chiller and Portable Kegerator ("William and Karen LaCross")
  Re: Making all-grain barleywine (David Towson)
  DMS removal? (Eric Jacobs)
  2002 California State Fair Homebrew & Commercial Competitions ("Sam Hernandez")
  (no subject) (RTOM0001)
  (no subject) (RTOM0001)
  Bill to legalize home distilling ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Re: Hop Shoots ("Doug Hurst")
  Oxygenation with O2 ("Lou King")
  Where to buy beer online ("Tray Bourgoyne")
  re: oxidation ("Steve Alexander")
  re: Subject: Attn Steven Alexander -  Question on decoction mashing ("Steve Alexander")


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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 22:49:49 -0500
From: Kevin Elsken <k.elsken at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Thanks and a few very Random Thoughts...

A couple of weeks ago I wrote the collective asking for advice on good
pubs near Heathrow airport.  As usual, the HBD'ers responded with good
advice.  In particular I must thank Calvin Perilloux, who sent a
detailed listing of several nearby pubs.  My time in London was limited,

arriving at 6:00 am on the USAirways flight from Pittsburgh to Gatwick.
My connection was at 4:30 pm on Alitalia, on the way to Milan (side
question: Italian food is wonderful.  Why can't they make a good beer?
But I digress).  Unfortunately that gave little time to attend to beer.
As it turned out, the flight was over two hours late leaving Pittsburgh,

and so we arrived at Gatwick around 8:00 am. I was lucky enough to score

a business class upgrade, but with the beer selection onboard limited to

Bud, Bud Light and Heineken, I skipped the alcohol completely in an
effort to minimize the jet lag.  Because of the upgrade, I scored a pass

to the USAirways arrival lounge.  They promptly showed me to a nice
shower facility, a great refresher after 8 hours on a plane.  When I
inquired about the location of the transfer bus to Heathrow, I was
promptly given a complimentary pass.  Let me tell you friends, it isn't
often I stumble into dumb luck like this!  I walked out just as the bus
prepared to leave, no waiting.  A pleasant ride to Heathrow, with
daffodils and hyacinth in full bloom, and the green over there, I tell
you, is just a tad more beautiful shade than you find in the US of A.

So I arrived at Heathrow, planning to check my large bag with Alitalia
and then venture out to Hatton Cross, where Calvin recommended a pub
called the Green Man.  We happened to drive right by the Hatton Cross
Station on the way, so I was psyched to go.  Then my luck ran out.  The
young lady at the Alitalia desk told me I could check no luggage until
2:00 pm.  Well, I just did not feel like dragging my luggage that far.
So on to Plan B: the Tap and Spile pub in the airside of Terminal 1
(thanks, AJ!).

I arrived around 11:00 am.  The beer selection was, well, OK.  They had
Guinness (great stuff, but the local Houlihans taps it), Fosters (OK,
Australia does have ties to Great Britain, is this their way of exacting

revenge for the penal colony thing?), Kronenbourg 1664 (I don't know,
sounds like Lowenbrow to me), John Smith Extra Smooth (extra smooth
WHAT?), Stella Artois, which I recall someone saying was Belgium's
Budweiser, John Courage Best Bitter, Strongbow (I can't even guess,
someone later told me it was a cider) and Marston's Pedigree, "A Classic

Ale Brewed in Oak Casks" (sounds like marketing to me).  They also had
Fuller's Best Bitter.

I started with the Courage Bitter.  It was hand pumped (good sign!) and
had a nice medium dark copper color.  Now, I thought I drank warm beer.
I was unprepared for how warm this beer was! I usually set my beer
fridge to 50 or 55 degrees F, but this had to be at least 65 degrees.
Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining, it was just a bit of a shock.
The beer was good.  I am not a good beer judge, as my palate has been
spoilt by too many years of pipe smoking.  Still, the flavor of the
courage was maybe just a bit less than I had hoped for.  Don't get me
wrong, it beats the pants off BudMillerCoors, but it was still somewhat
less than Nirvana.

Next I tried the Fullers.  It was also on hand pump.  My uneducated
palate found it altogether better (a better Bitter?).  Better malt/hop
balance, a less harsh hop palate.  The again I could be wrong. (As I
write this a group of 9 French-speakers have set down at the next table.

More 'oui-oui' than the halftime of a Steelers game).

So its on to Italy, where I will be forced to eat prosciutto, parmigiano

reggiano and drink Chianti.  Life is h*ll.

[Editor's note: the above was written in a jet lag induced stupor.
Apologies to all who were offended. The following was written after
several relaxed days in Italy.]

Someone asked me to let them know how much a pint was in the UK
nowadays.  It was 6 quid for 2 pints of ale plus a bottle of mineral
water. After getting my properly adjusted credit card receipt back I
find it came to $8.55.  Not too bad, considering it was an airport and
the local Houlihan's charges $4 for a pint of Guinness.

Well, the food in Italy was just stupendous.  Nothing like the 'Italian'

one gets in the states.  Unfortunately, wine is the drink of choice
(remember, life is h*ll). Okay, and a few grappas. I did stop in a local

supermarket and everyone can rest assured, Italians can get all the
Corona they want.  This market did have Tranquir House Ale for Euro 2.30

a bottle (maybe $2 US), so I snagged one and took it back to the hotel.
Very nice.  I think in my 5 year homebrew career my taste has shifted
from the hop happy ales to the maltier side.  I now have a Mild on tap,
and it is such a pleasant beer.  I also made a Wee Heavy late last year,

and it just keeps getting better and better.

Anyway, thanks to all for the suggestions.

Ciao,

Kevin Elsken
Little Boy Brewery
North Strabane, PA

PS - Since I am ranting a bit, stopped by the local eatery and what do I

see on the table but an ad for Guinness, in a bottle, with a special
widget so you CAN DRINK IT STRAIGHT FROM THE BOTTLE !  Then I looked at
the picture of the bottle and it said "Serve Extra Cold"...Oh, the
humanity! I guess they sensed an untapped American market...




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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:28:59 -0600
From: "Ayotte, Roger C" <rcayot at solutia.com>
Subject: Diacetyl and CCF

First, there have been a lot of posts regarding diacetyl recently, and the
discussion has been going in a direction I think needs redirecting.  The
diacetyl rest is usually done when the yeast is active, in fact it is the
yeast the actually 'eats' the diacetyl when other food stuffs are
depleted, so providing a diacetyl rest in a lager can be tricky if the
yeast has begun to go dormant.  You can correct this by adding a small
amount of yeast and allowing a short (two day) refermentation at room
temperature!  I have done this with a lager that had very objectionable
diacetyl, it was in the keg already and I just removed the keg from the
refrigerator, pitched a very small starter (probably from a slant into
10ml super starter from brewteck, and then up to 200ml with DME)  allowed
it to referment in the keg for two days and replaced it in the
refrigerator.  The yeast removed the diacetyl, then crashed when placed
into the refrigerator and the beer was great.  Now could one do this in
the bottle?  Of course you can refermentation in the bottle should remove
the diacetyl if there are healthy yeast present, jus bottle with a small
starter, a little corn sugar, DME, primetabs or whatever, just try to do
the first few days of bottle conditioning at room temp not lagering temps.

Second, cylindroconicals.  Sure they are great but you can get 90% of the
benefits and some unique features by fermenting in a 10G cornie!  I love
my 10 gallon kegs, they work very well for fermenters!  They can be
sanitized like you would a serving keg, they do not break, they allow for
venting by placing a fitting on the gas side, slipping a piece of tubing
over the fitting and placing it in a bottle of water to act as a
fermentation lock.  In addition, the fermenting beer can be sampled by
placing a fitting on the serving side with your beer line and a 'cobra
head' type of tap on it.  When you want a sample, just pop off the gas
side wait a few minutes for the pressure to build and then tap off a
sample!  when the beer no longer is producing enough CO2 to allow for
this, pressurize with a little CO2 to get your sample.  I have had very
few problems with yeast or sediment with this set up, if you do, just use
a slightly shortened dip tube.  I don't brew often enough to benefit from
yeas harvesting so it does not bother me that I can't really harvest the
yeast with this set-up.  However, it does work well as a 'unitank'.  For
ales, I ferment in a 'Fermenchiller" (thanks Ken Schwartz!) and when
fermentation is over I remove the gas side fitting and place the keg in
the refrigerator.  After a week or so, I pressurize the keg and transfer
directly to my serving keg(s) usually a five gallon keg or two.  The beer
never see's the atmosphere once I pitch yeast and is handled through
tubing and moved around by CO2 pressure either natural or from a tank.  I
have heard that 5 gallon cornies are the wrong size (H/W) for good
fermentation, but I think they would probably work just fine, I use the
10's because I have one and because I like to brew a little more than the
4 or so gallons you could get out of a 5g cornie.

Roger Ayotte 




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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:10:05 -0600
From: Mark Kellums <infidel at springnet1.com>
Subject: Glacier hops

Hop Variety G L A C I E R



Origin    Cross between Elsasser F and 8685-014 M.  Genetic
    composition is 1/2 Elsasser, 5/32 Brewer's Gold, 1/8
    Northern Brewer, 1/16 Bullion, 1/32 Early Green, 1/32
    German Aroma hop, 1/64 East Kent Golding, 1/128
    Bavarian and 9/128 unknown

Maturity   Mid-season

Yield    Six Year Average:  2,135 lbs/acre

Disease Reaction  Needs Plant Protectants for Powdery Mildew and Downey
    Mildew.  Agronomically, very acceptable.

Cone-Structure  Medium-compact and plump

Quality:

 Lupulin  Abundant, yellow in color
 Aroma   Excellent, pleasant hoppiness
 Storageability  Six year average:  71.5% of alpha acids remaining after six
    months storage at 20 C.  Very good, and similar to
    Willamette, Styrian, and Magnum
Spectro Data:

 Alpha Acids  Six year average:  5.63%
 Co-Humulone  Six year average:  12%
 Beta Acids  Six year average:  7.6%

Hop Oils:

 Total Oil  0.7 - 1.6% v/w (six year average = 1.1%)

 Myrcene  33 - 62% (six year average = 47%)
 Humulene  24 - 36% (six year average = 29%)l
 Caryophyllene  6.5 - 10.0% (six year average = 7.2%)
 Farnesene  <0.3%

Brewing Character:  An excellent hop with balanced bittering properties
    combined with an acceptable aroma profile.




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:06:07 +0100
From: Pietro Toniolo <ptoniolo at tin.it>
Subject: Re: hops sprouts

Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico) said:

> And, did anyone ever eat hop sprouts  (expensive? tasty?)

I live in Italy, and my origins are in Vicenza on the north-eastern
part of Italy, near Venice.

One of the specialty spring dishes from Vicenza is "Bruscandoli" (pron.
Brussca`ndoi, tonic stress on the "a"), a kind of young hop sprouts.
They are generally prepared with rice, as "Riso`tto coi brussca`ndoi".

Deeelicious!

Pietro "Trone" Toniolo
[Apparent Rennerian 7008.1km, 51.8]


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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 13:50:38 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: On/Off and PIDS

There is no problem with on/off control with PID controllers. In fact
with electrical heaters there is no practical alternative (i.e. Variacs,
saturable core reactors and subcycle width modulation are out of fashion
these days). As long as the time constant of the load is long with
respect to the cycle time, the controller can't tell that the control is
on/off proportional - the system acts like a big low pass filter. With
SSR's there is no need to lengthen the cycle to increase contact
longevity so it is quite possible to have sufficiently short cycle times
for the vast majority of systems. For example in the typical home
mashing setup (10 - 30 pounds of grain plus 15 - 50 pounds water) a 5
second cycle time is well below the system time constant. If a PID
controller called for 25% output one would be hard pressed to see the
difference between the results obtained with a 2KW heater turned on for
1.25 seconds and off for 3.75  and the same heater on continuously but
throttled back to 500 watts by an autotransformer or reactor. Bear in
mind that heater controllers which accept 0 - 5V or 4-20 ma  control are
acutally doing on/off control. The minimum unit of control is the half
cycle  i.e. when 25% is commanded the unit could be on for 25 line half
cycles and off for 75. Thus if 1% resolution is required the minmum time
cycle is 50 line cycles or 1 second in most of the world and 1.2 seconds
in the US and other countries that use 60 Hz.

Usually one selects the cycle time and then runs the autotune function
to determine the full set of PID parameters (including rate). An
interesting twist on this with some CAL controllers I use is that while
they calculate band, reset and rate at the cycle time the operator has
selected they also determine the optimum cycle time which you then have
the option of programming into the system. I have no idea what the
algorithm is for finding this 4th parameter.




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 09:31:39 -0500
From: "Angie and Reif Hammond" <arhammond at attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Mini-keg Bung Temperature Tolerance

Rob Hanson asked:

>Here's the question: I'm wondering if anyone has information on the
>temperature tolerance of rubber mini-keg bungs (Fass Frisch) -- 170F is
>no problem, but near-boiling wort will be running through the hopback,
>and I could easily go with the brass fittings on the list before I go
>ahead with the project.

Time for an experiment!  Boil one in a pot of water and push on it with
a spoon.  Does it get a lot softer then one in just warm water?  Boil
for an hour or so - any changes?  Any odors while boiling?  Remove and
let cool - can you tell it apart from one you did not boil (color
changes may be okay)?  You may want to taste the water when cool for any
off flavors (hopefully there would be nothing that is hazardous).  If it
passes these tests, you have ruled out some possible failures.  I would
then try it in the real application for final confirmation, however, I
would try first with just water and not risk wort!

Reif Hammond
Durham, NH




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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 09:18:40 -0600
From: Ralph Link <ralphl at shaw.ca>
Subject: cleaning the outside of a immersion chiller

Hello Brewers
I have managed to obtain a 50 ft. coil of 3/4" copper tube. I plan to 
rewind it around the circumference of a 100lbs. propane tank to make the 
chiller. This may be a bigger problem than I think. My next concern is, 
what would be an effective and easy way to clean the exterior of the 
chiller, since the copper coil has been left laying around in the open for 
a long period of time. Personal email are welcome
Ralph Link
(on the opposite side of the same city as B. Lundeen)



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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:19:36 -0600
From: "Gene" <gcollins at geotec.net>
Subject: Conical cooling

LeavesThanks to all of those who posted both privately and publicly to my
recent post about converting a 10 gallon cornie.

There have been several posts regarding glycol cooling of conical
fermenters. I am a gadget-capable guy that could do this, but living in the
beer wasteland that is Oklahoma, I haven't seen one of these.

>From my experience as a master truck technician, I know that glycol is used
as a cooling solution. We use ethelyne glycol and propelyne glycol as engine
coolants, but these are extremely deadly if ingested, so these are out due
to possible cross-contamination issues. Where would one obtain straight
glycol (food grade?)?

Secondly, I assume that you must have a cooling source, thermostatic
control, and a circulation pump of some manner. Again, I have no reference
here. Can someone clear up the details? I have an old style soda dispensing
machine with a complete small refrigeration unit that I have been wanting to
do something with. I think, if my limited understanding is correct, that
this would be a perfect use for it.

Gene Collins
Broken Arrow, OK




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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:36:40 -0600
From: "George Krafcisin" <gkrafcisin at mindspring.com>
Subject: LEAD IN BRASS FITTINGS

GlacierBraam Greyling asks about lead leaching from brass fittings, and why
a solution of hydrogen peroxide and vinegar will "remove" the lead from the
surface of the fittings.

At the lab where I once worked we did lead extraction testing for the
American Pottery Association.  Old-time pottery used lead and
chromium-containing glazes, that could leach significant amounts of lead
into low pH solutions like wine or orange juice.  (Don't use your antique
pitchers for this stuff.)

The amount of lead you can extract into your brew will depend on pH (lower
dissolves more), percentage of lead in the brass alloy, surface area of
brass exposed, time of exposure, and temperature.  My guess is that for most
brewers, the combination of these will give you a yield of lead in final
brew that is insignificant.

Potentially more of a problem is your own water supply. The current US EPA
guidelines for lead content in drinking water supplies is 15 ppb (parts per
billion or micrograms per liter), with an ultimate goal of zero.  See
www.epa.gov/safewater/standard/leadfs.html for more information.  In our
lab's water testing, we found significant lead in office and factory water
supplies from lead leached from solder in copper piping.  EPA notified folks
that some water cisterns were made of lead, and older underground pumps may
have brass or bronze fittings, yielding lead levels in the hundreds of ppb.
Since 1986 in the US, pipes and pipe fittings for potable water are required
to be "lead free", with less than 8% lead content.

In my own 70 year old home near Chicago, we have a lead supply line from the
city water supply.  We found 41 ppb in the "first draw" that had been
sitting in the pipes overnight.  That dropped to 19 ppb after flushing the
line for a couple of minutes.  The city has since added corrosion resistant
chemicals to the supply to reduce leaching of lead from the surface of the
lines.  Since there are no kids in my home (developing brains are more
susceptible to damage, and mine are about shot anyway), I don't worry about
it.

Once satisfied that your water supply is safe, I would use SS fittings for
any surface that stays in contact with low pH, hot wort or brew.  The cost
differential can't be that great. My own setup is all SS, glass or plastic,
except for a brass fitting at the bottom of my Igloo cooler I use for
mashing.  I assume that Igloo knows people will store acidic beverages in
it, so it's lead free.

Why use H2O2 and vinegar to "remove" the lead?  The vinegar lowers pH to
better dissolve lead.  I would guess the H2O2 oxidizes the copper, tin, and
lead in the brass, leaving a nice oxide coating that prevents the water from
dissolving the lead underneath.  When you do your usual thorough job of
scrubbing, you remove this, once again exposing the lead to solution.

Hope this helps.


George Krafcisin
Glencoe, IL



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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:47:34 -0500
From: "Brian M Dotlich" <BMDotlich at cs.com>
Subject: Conicals/Clearfine

Greetings,

I wanted to chime in with my idea for controlling temperature in conical
fermenters.  I was thinking about possibly surrounding the upper portion of
the fermenter (the non cone part) with a coil of copper tubing and then
applying 2 or 3 inches of spray on foam insulation to the entire cone.
Temperature control would be achieved by pumping sub-freezing automotive
antifreeze through the coil and back into a freezer which would have a very
large pool of antifreeze (60 or 100 gallons)

I also would like to re-pose my question to the collective about Clearfine
Beer Fining.  My local homebrew supply person recommended it,  says it works
great.  When I asked him if it removed yeast from suspension he didn't know
because he had only used it when he was brewing commercially.

So my question is...Do I need to add new yeast after using Clearfine?

Brian Dotlich
Centerville OH



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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:01:07 -0600
From: "Gene" <gcollins at geotec.net>
Subject: Re: Killing yeast

LeavesBrian Lundeen correctly points out that potassium sorbate does not
"kill" yeast, but merely stuns it into submission by preventing it from
multiplying. Thanks for pointing that out.

As far as filtering is concerned, that too is a good idea. Myself, I am a
purist and not afraid of a little yeast floating around in my brews, but
some do not care for it. This is a reasonable option for those that don't
and can prevent some flavor stripping that pastuerization could cause.

Gene Collins
Broken Arrow, OK




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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 12:57:12 -0500
From: "William and Karen LaCross" <lacross at chartermi.net>
Subject: Both a Wort Chiller and Portable Kegerator

Is it feasible to build an immersion chiller that could also be used as a
kegerator type beer chiller?  Has anyone tried to chill beer by running it
through copper tubing?  All of the beer chillers I've seen are made from
stainless steel tubing.  Speaking of s.s. tubing, can it be bent into a
tight coil with a spring bender like copper?  What size/type of tubing
should be used?  So many questions and so little time.

Thanks for any help you can give.

Bill LaCross
Petoskey, Michigan
(218.8, 345.7) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 13:25:14 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Making all-grain barleywine

      In a recent post, someone asked about techniques for making 
barleywine with an all-grain system.  I don't recall seeing any replies, so 
here is a piece of an article I wrote for our club newsletter (The Libation 
Association of Northern Maryland) that deals with the subject.

     Due to the very high original gravity required (1.080 - 1.120+ per 
BJCP), brewing barleywine poses some interesting challenges to the 
brewer.  For a given batch size, malt bills tend to be about twice that 
required for a "normal beer".  This often strains the capacity of a 
brewer's mashing and boiling vessels, and forces the making of smaller 
batches than usual.  If normal mashing and sparging techniques are used to 
achieve good efficiency in extracting sugars from the malt, the specific 
gravity of the wort collected will be somewhere in the 1.040 - 1.060 range, 
and a lengthy boil will be needed to concentrate the wort to the target 
gravity.  For example, in a recent batch , I had to boil for 
five-and-a-half hours and reduce 12 gallons of runoff down to about 5.5 in 
order to hit a target gravity of 1.102.  That 5-gallon batch had 20.5 
pounds of malt in the mash.  Such long boils cause substantial darkening of 
the wort, making production of a light colored barleywine 
difficult-to-impossible with this technique.  Another approach is to use 
just the first runnings from the mash to make barleywine, and then sparge 
the mash to collect wort for one or more lower gravity beers.  This 
"parti-gyle" technique has been used for several centuries, and it is still 
in use today.  Fuller's "Golden Pride" barleywine, for example, is made 
this way, with later runnings being used to make "London Pride" and 
"Chiswick Bitter".  The classic "Thomas Hardy's Ale" was also made by the 
parti-gyle method until it was discontinued last year when the former 
brewer, Eldridge Pope, sold their brewing interests and reorganized to 
focus on retail business.  While parti-gyle brewing may sound like a model 
of efficiency, hitting target gravities with this method is not a trivial 
matter, and having solved that problem, the brewer must still clean-up the 
brewpot between successive boils.  So all things considered, I don't find 
the idea particularly appealing.  Nevertheless, if you'd like to give it a 
try, or just read about how it's done, a good article on the subject 
appeared in the January, 2001 issue of "Brew Your Own" magazine beginning 
on page 41.  Extract brewers get a break when making barleywine because 
they can just keep adding extract until they reach whatever target gravity 
they seek.  In this case, the problem of concentrating the wort has been 
solved by the extract maker.  Also, the wort darkening that commonly 
results from boiling extracts is not unique, since you'd get that from the 
long boil needed to concentrate the runnings from a fully sparged mash 
anyway.  But no matter how you achieve the required gravity, hop 
utilization is going to be considerably less than with "normal" worts, so 
be prepared to use lots of hops.

Dave



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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 14:25:35 -0500
From: Eric Jacobs <eljacobs at bellsouth.net>
Subject: DMS removal?

A couple weeks ago, I made my first attempt at a Berliner Weiss.
Evidently I left it too long at too high a temp (let it cool from 150F
just sitting overnight, trying to let it sour) and then didn't boil,
and it's got a pretty high DMS level.  Enough that for me, it's not
just a flaw, it's undrinkable.  

I've searched the archives, and found the usual info on preventing DMS
(do exactly the opposite of what I did), but not much on removing it
from finished beer.  Anyone got any ideas?  

I've already tried force carbonating a small amount, then violently
decarbonating it (ie, shake the heck out of it) in hopes that the CO2
would scrub out some DMS.  That might have helped, but not enough.
I've also run across a research paper that mentioned DMS has a
surprisingly low boiling point, 38C, so I thought I might try heating
some of the beer and see if that helps.  But that's kind of contrary
to everything I've read about DMS in the past...  (But if it *does*

Or is my beer ruined?  ;)  Oh well, I'm out $6 in ingredients.  Is
there anything useful that I can do with 10 gallons of creamed-corn
flavored beer?

I've got to mention that other than the DMS, this beer is pretty
promising.  If anyone has thought about attempting a no-boil Berliner
Weiss, I would encourage you to give it a try.  I used the info posted
by Marc Sedam as a reference.  Early during the fermemtation it
smelled like... well I don't even know how to describe the smell.  I
think I've read it described as a "vomit-like" smell, and that might
not be too far off.  But after a couple weeks it's got a pretty clean
(except for the DMS), slightly sour flavor.  I'm definitely going to
give it another try, and just use a low-temp (100F) souring rest.

- --
Eric Jacobs
Atlanta, GA, USA


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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 12:04:51 -0800
From: "Sam Hernandez" <sam at calbrewers.com>
Subject: 2002 California State Fair Homebrew & Commercial Competitions

The 19th Annual California State Fair Homebrew Competition is now accepting
entries until April 27. Preliminary judging will begin April 30 and end with
the final judging on May 19, 2002. All styles of beer, mead and cider will
be judged according to the current BJCP guidelines.

The 8th Annual California State Fair Commercial Craft Competition will begin
accepting entries between May 1 to May 9. Preliminary judging will begin May
10 and end with the final judging on May 18, 2002. All styles of beer, mead
and cider will be judged according to the current BJCP guidelines.

Both of these competitions are BJCP registered and points will be awarded to
BJCP Judges.

The California State Fair and The California Brewers Guild will host a
"Thank you" dinner for all Judges and stewards after the Commercial Craft
Brewing Competition Finals on May 18 at Sacramento Brewing Company. Judges
and stewards are encouraged to sign up online at www.calbrewers.com/help.htm
so we can provide a count to the brewery.

For more information/entry forms please visit our website
www.calbrewers.com/state.htm , contact JJ Jackson, 2002 Competition
Organizer, at mailto:jj at calbrewers.com or at 916-348-6322

Good luck!



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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 23:49:27 EST
From: RTOM0001 at aol.com
Subject: (no subject)

RESPONSE TO:

<I I
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:04:27 -0800
From: "David Hooper" <DHooper at kc.rr.com>
Subject: Pumps

I am looking for a pump to pump liquid from one carboy to the other.  Bill
Frazier gave me the name of a pump from Barnant, but I would like to know
what other people have used and where they bought them.  I wanted to go to
Moving Brews, but that doesn't seem possible right now.

Thanks

DAVID,
I PURCHASED A PUMP FROM GRAINGERS INDUSTRIAL SUPPLY.  THEY ARE ON THE WEB AT 
GRAINGERS.COM.  YOU PROBABLY HAVE TO USE A COMPANY NAME TO PURCHASE THE  PUMP 
AS THEY DO NOT SELL TO INDIVIDUALS.

I GOT THE HOT WATER PUMP, TACO MODEL THAT WORKS GREAT PUMPING HOT WATER FROM 
THE LIQUOR TANK TO THE MASH TUN.

GOOD LUCK,
RICK T.


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Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 00:00:13 EST
From: RTOM0001 at aol.com
Subject: (no subject)

RESPONSE TO:

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 10:25:40 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: Machined-Copper Cleaning

Hi everybody,

This weekend I made a new Counterflow chiller with the 15mm 
copperpipe that is used for watersupply in houses. 

I am worried about the inside of the copperpipe. I think there might 
be lubricants and other unwanted stuff inside the copper pipe. I am 
not sure how it is machined into a pipe. 

What chemical can I use to clean it? I dont want to end up with oily 
stout or leady-lager...   

Thanks and best regards

Braam Greyling 


BRAAM,
USE A MIXTURE OF WHITE VINEGAR AND WATER (30% VINEGAR) AND HEAT IT TO AROUND 
160-170F  AND RUN IT THROUGH THE TUBING.  USE ABOUT 2 GALLONS OF MIXTURE.

RICK T.


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Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 07:23:03 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Bill to legalize home distilling

Jeff Renner posted the following on the DBD about a possible bill to legalize
distilling from a Michigan Congressman. As Jeff points out, it would be
political suicide for most politicians to support legislation like this. MADD,
the neo-prohibitionists, the religious right, and others would certainly come
down hard on any politician who supported this legislation (remember the
Whisky Rebellion?). But don't forget that not that long ago it was also
against the law to homebrew. As they say; Mighty oaks from little acorns grow.
If we nurture this little oak seedling with some compost from the spent grains
from our homebrew mash tuns, maybe one day we'll be able to build our own
stills beneath its branches.

In simpler terms - it's a long shot, but write your Congressmen asking them to
support this bill. It's has to start with us.

Mark Tumarkin

- ------------------------------
from the Distilled Beverage Digest V1 #267

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 15:18:08 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: bill to legalize home distillation.

Found an interesting site at http://www.gin-vodka.com/ with some good links.

Among the links is one to a bill designed to legalize home distilling
in the United States that was introduced by Michigan US
Representative Bart Stupak (Bill H.R. 3249).  The site says it has
been tabled but following the link suggests that it has only been
referred to committee.  It would be nice if common sense prevailed.
Write your member of congress.  Sadly, I imagine it would be tough
for most politicians to vote for such a bill.  MADD would come down
hard on them.  Stupak comes from a pretty safe district as I recall.

Jeff
 - --
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943

- ------------------------------







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Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 10:00:39 -0600
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: Re: Hop Shoots

I was recently searching for sources of bulk hops and discovered
Puterbaugh Farms (Hops Direct).    They sell pickled hop shoots.  I
don't know how they are, as I was only buying hop flowers (got 2lbs for
about $14.00).  You can also buy apples in 1000 lb. minimum quantities.
NAJSCYYY.
http://www.hopsdirect.com/

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL


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Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:55:28 -0500
From: "Lou King" <lking at pobox.com>
Subject: Oxygenation with O2

Probably a little late, as I think I under-oxygenated my wort, but what
is the "rule of thumb" for oxygenation with pure O2.  I.e., how long to
put the O2 in the wort?

Today I made a 10 gallon batch, and I ran the tank for only about 30
seconds or so, which I am starting to think is a bit too short.

I think I read somewhere that 20 seconds is sufficient, but I can't find
where I read it, and that was probably for 5 gallons anyway.

Lou King
Ijamsville, MD



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Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:12:08 -0600
From: "Tray Bourgoyne" <tray at netdoor.com>
Subject: Where to buy beer online

Where can I buy beer online? I would like to sample different types and
styles. I have a very limited selection locally. I want to sample different
styles, types to help me in my home brewing.

Thanks,

Tray Bourgoyne



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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 19:40:46 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: oxidation

Phil writes ....

>I can only say it doesn't seem to cause any problems in my beer.

Then you are set - don't bother reading the rest of the post.

My early problems with oxidation occurred when my methods were pretty simple
and I was brewing a lot (and so had a large stash of older beers).    I had
a great lager ~3-4 months old that I wanted to share with a friend on an
upcoming trip so I bottled a few from the keg and kept them in the fridge.
The trip was cancelled, but sampling the bottled beers a week later showed
they definitely were lacking a lot of the great flavors that the kegged beer
still had - and got worse fast.  Funny thing - the kegged lager developed
those same flavor defects suddenly a few weeks later.  I had a couple kegged
beers go 'off' suddenly after tasting great for months - tho' I think the
first experience sensitized me to the problem.

If you start thinking about it kegged HB flavor is constantly evolving.  It
first it's a bit green and maybe yeasty, then tastes mature and fresh and
hopefully clean, then the better parts of the hops aroma/flavor eventually
fade and the freshness is less apparent - if you keep a beer around long
enough the flavors become dull and you may eventually see real real
problems.    I seem to see an association in my own beers with melanoidins
in the malt (a lot of Munich of dark malt) and quicker flavor changes.   I
just got an email from another HBDer who sees this in stouts and beers that
use dark roast malts.

Some of these aged flavors aren't necessarily bad - but they aren't
indicative of fresh beer.   I had a keg of a Belgian style tripple that hung
around several years and was good to the last drop - but not nearly the same
beer at 2 months old as at 18.

Funny thing - bottle conditioned beers eventually lose some of their 'top'
hops and malt flavors but don't seem to go "south" very fast.  I *suspect*
kreusening has a similar effect.

Anyway if you'd like your beers fresh tasting and long-lived then pay
attention to oxygen, especially in the mash and post fermentation.  If you
finish your beers in 12 weeks, or bottle condition - fuggedaboudit.  I mean
oxidation has impacts all along the brewing (and hop storage) path - but it
doesn't turn a good beer bad in 5 weeks.

 -S




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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 20:47:34 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Subject: Attn Steven Alexander -  Question on decoction mashing

RJ asks ...

Subject: Attn Steven Alexander -
{it's Steve or Stephen or hey-you ... no matter}

>[...]there's this one tiny little thing that always BUGS me.
>
>[...]But, what doesn't make sense, is that you all state that the
decoction(s) is
>pulled and then held at 158F [...]
>
>Okay, so here's the question:
>If they didn't have thermometers, how'd they know when they were at the
>first rest of 158F, prior to boiling the decoction?

The 158F rest of the first pulled decoction is a modern adaptation
undoubtedly added after the age of thermometers.   I have been unable
to find good historical sources that describe the actual procedure prior to
1850.

Historical decoctions used undermodified malts and very thin mashes (lots of
water).
Also without other sources of acidification an extensive acid rest was used.
The
oldest decoction schedules around mash-in with ambient temp or modestly warm
water and long rest.    I honestly don't know how they would get to the next
step temp for a protein rest.   In any case the benefits of the 158F rest
can
also be had by heating that first decoction slowly through the
saccharification
range of <70C at 2min/C or less and this is probably how they accomplished
the 1st decoction conversion without thermometers.  It would be nice, but
not
necessary to judge when the 1st decoction was above 70C so you could step
up the heat.  Performing a rest at 158F/70C is more necessary when  you have
a high heat source capable of blasting past the saccharification range.

I do know that in England there were descriptions of determining water's
readiness to be used as infusions based on 'groaning' (as the water gives up
dissolved gasses) and the glassiness of the surface after de-gassing.  There
are also critical mash temps where the glucans break down and stirring
becomes easier, and scorching/sticking less likely.  Perhaps the brewmaster
judged the 1st decoction temp by some similar observation.

 -S




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---