HOMEBREW Digest #3924 Thu 25 April 2002

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  Yahoo! Group for contest announcements and results posting (Robert Marshall)
  Inline Water Heaters (Steven J. Owens)
  Re Barley Wine (Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative)
  Prison beers . . . (Ray Daniels)
  Atlanta Micro's and HB Shops ("Mark Nelson")
  Re: Hello again! ("Chad Gould")
  Mango wit - suggestions? (IndSys, SalemVA)" <Douglas.Moyer at indsys.ge.com>
  Re: High Pressure Lager Yeast L 36 ("Gregor Zellmann")
  Cleaning the taps and lines ("Berggren, Stefan")
  Here's a hot one: brewing in the bottle? ("James Sploonta")
  Hops brew pubs (DHinrichs)
  Re: HSA stuff ("Larry Bristol")
  Atlanta brews ("Dennis Waltman")
  Sunshine Challenge Competition - Top Ten Reasons (Don Lake)
  Koehler (Paul Mahoney)
  Diacetyl Please ("Bates, Floyd G")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:25:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Marshall <robertjm1 at yahoo.com> Subject: Yahoo! Group for contest announcements and results posting Hi all, Just a quick note. A few months ago I created a new Yahoo! Group for announcements of homebrew competitions, as well as the results of those competitions. At the present time its pretty anemic. Sure, its a duplicate of anything announced here, but free publicity is free publicity. If you feel like announcing your contest feel free to join! The url of the group is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/homebrew_contests Best Wishes, Robert ===== Robert Marshall NNY Brewing Co. (NO, not N. New York, No-Name-Yet!) [6653.5, 339.5] Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 02:32:18 -0400 From: puffmail at darksleep.com (Steven J. Owens) Subject: Inline Water Heaters Hi guys, This is an odd question, but bear with me... we go camping for two weeks every year (Pennsic). Calling it "camping" is a bit inaccurate... it's more like a two-week party in the woods. I know a lot of homebrewers who brew up a lot of batches just for this trip. By camping standards, it tends to be quite luxurious. For the last ten years or so, people have been bringing their own shower arrangements, driven off the piped-in water provided on site. For the last five years or so, RV water heaters for hot showers have been quite popular, heaters like this: http://www.bigdiscountrv.com/water_heaters.html Last year we decided to finally get one for our camp. Most of the water heaters people use are much like normal water heaters - they have a holding tank, heat up the water into the holding tank, when you shower you draw water off of the holding tank. But we came across this more expensive, on-demand Paloma water heater: http://www.globaltownewarehouse.com/HomeProducts/paloma/palomachart.htm It costs about twice what the other model costs. I tend to like the idea of on-demand systems, for all sorts of reasons, but the extra $200 for a gadget I'll use 2 weeks out of the year is a big down side. The the thought occurred to me; I've been wanting a RIMS for years. Maybe this puppy could serve double-duty. What do you folks think about the Paloma's suitability for a RIMS system? (or conversely, do you have any suggestions for an inline RIMS heater that could also serve as a portable, propane-driven shower heater?) Ideally it'd be rigged for both propane and natural gas, so I could drive it off propane while camping and off natural gas (like my furnace, dryer and stove) at home. Steven J. Owens puff at darksleep.cmo Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:55:36 +1000 (EST) From: Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative <Scott.Morgan at Sun.COM> Subject: Re Barley Wine G'day, >From my limited Barly Wine experience... if I bottle it it fails to carbonate much. This is not much of a problem since many of those styles are not meant to be heavily carbonated. It also takes forever for it to carbonate. I have always been Ok, remeber this is pretty strong stuff and the level of Alcohol may be inhibiting any further yeast activity. Perhaps some fresh yeast into the bottling program?? Mine have alwasy carbonated up, usually 6 weeks and they are fine. Corn sugar as suggested by Zymurgy or malt? I don't know. The argument is that corn sugar being almost pure glucose does not have the oxygen requirement that malt sugar does. That is fine. But... I always use Cane Sugar - considering the amount of extract used in the beer - 7-8kg per 22 litres, the small addition of 6 grams of sugar has never affected the profile. As there is an excess of dextrins if there is any live yeast over time these will eat away at the dextrins enhancing carbonation. My last 12 month old BW had a thick creamy head by then...pity I drank it all ... What do you suggest, folks. Corn or malt sugar? John Gubbins n0vse at idcomm.com Littleton Co (big forest fire burning now) Hey know all about that .... hope all is ok. Rennerian 1117,265.5 What was my Co-ords again Jeff?? Scotty Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 06:10:37 -0500 From: Ray Daniels <raydan at ameritech.net> Subject: Prison beers . . . Seems like there was a thread on prison beers not long ago, but I can't find it pre-2002 and seems like the search engine is down for 2002. Can anyone remember when these things were being posted? For that matter, would anyone like to write a story about this? Ray Daniels Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer Director, Brewers Publications ray at aob.org 773-665-1300 Call Customer Service at 888-822-6273 to subscribe or order individual magazines. For more information, see www.beertown.org Don't Miss: Craft Brewers Conference, April 10-13, Cleveland Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:28:09 -0400 From: "Mark Nelson" <menelson at mindspring.com> Subject: Atlanta Micro's and HB Shops I guess Steve S and I live on opposite sides of town. I usually hit a place called Marietta Homebrew, which is in of course Marietta GA. It's up Interstate 75, near the infamous Big Chicken KFC, rather than up I-85... I had been going to the two that Steve mentions closed down, and am still bitter that there is not a decent shop inside the Atlanta perimeter, but it is nice to have at least one within a 30 minute drive. As for Micro's, there are three in town. Sweetwater and Dogwood are my two favorites, and are really neck in neck. Atlanta Brewing / Red Brick Ales is the third, and I don't find them as interesting. As for Brewpubs, my favorite is 5 Seasons Brewing. They seem to brew the widest range of beers, from Maibocks to Milds, and usually have at least two lagers on at any given time. Second favorite I guess would be Max Lager's, which is in downtown. I hope all this helps. There is more info available at www.beerinfo.com/atlbeer Mark Nelson Atlanta PS. What is the price of whales these days? :-) "With the warm summer days here suddenly a nice trip over to the Price of Whales" It should be the Prince of Wales, of course. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:40:28 -0400 From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com> Subject: Re: Hello again! > > I'm looking for good homebrew supply stores in the Atlanta metro area? > > Also, which microbreweries in this area should I visit? > If you can call it microbrew Gordon Biersch isn't too horrible. The > meirscham (sp?) is tasty if a little thin on body. Hops carries some > intresting on-site brews but they serve the stuff so cold any flavor it > might have had is frozen stiff. I hear Max Lagers is good but i've not > been. Typically, when I've visited Atlanta in the past, there were two places I've gone to: Max Lagers and Summitt Tavern (the former Taco Mac). If you are looking for beer variety (but not a microbrew), Summitt is pretty good. The food selection is nice and there are (at least where I go) 100 odd-ish tap selections to choose from. Sadly, Georgia's 6% alcohol law limits you -- some of the interesting beers you can get in Florida are not found here. http://www.summits-online.com/ Max Lagers has a limited menu but has some very good brews. I much prefer this place to Gordon Biersch. Max Lagers is quieter, and the food at Gordon Biersch is mediocre IMHO. Atlanta's major microbrew-in-bottles is Sweetwater. They do brew some good stuff, notably for my tastes the 420 Pale Ale and Sweet Georgia Brown. http://www.sweetwaterbrew.com/ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:44:06 -0400 From: "Moyer, Douglas (IndSys, SalemVA)" <Douglas.Moyer at indsys.ge.com> Subject: Mango wit - suggestions? Fruity brewers, On Sunday, I brewed 11.5 gallons (US) of wit. It is currently fermenting happily in two 6.5 gallon carboys. I would like to take half of the batch (one of the carboys) and make a mango wit. I remember the Baron's national nemesis brewed one once. Graham, any suggestions? Anyone else with experience? I want it to be subtle, but definitely mango. I suppose that I will need to switch to a bucket for the secondary so I can deal with the fruit bits. (I've never used fruit before.) I could cut up the mangoes and freeze them to help break the cell walls. How much fruit should I use for 5.75 gallons of beer? How long should the beer sit on the fruit? Any other concerns? Any comments? Brew on! Doug Moyer Salem, VA [394.9, 147.9] Apparent Rennerian Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:06:47 +0200 From: "Gregor Zellmann" <gregor at blinx.de> Subject: Re: High Pressure Lager Yeast L 36 Jeff Renner replied on my request for more information about High Pressure Lager Yeast L 36: > I know that 4-5 years ago Dan McConnell here in Ann Arbor had such a > strain, and Bill Holmes was going to set up a 15 psi pressure valve > on a Corney to test this yeast, but I'm not sure if he or anyone else > in AABG did do it. I will check and report back if there were any > results. I believe that I fermented a lager with it at normal > pressures and temperatures with unremarkable results - that is, > normal lager flavor.* That would be great, Jeff. It is something I would want to try at least one time. > I am pretty sure it is a S. cerevisiae strain. I seem to remember > Dan saying that it was becoming fairly popular with German commercial > brewers. The reasons would be obvious. However, I am a > traditionalist, not a commercial brewer, and I prefer the old > fashioned way of fermenting lagers. I actually also prefer the traditional ways for fermenting lagers, but as I stated above, I enjoy experimenting. I can only ferment real lagers during wintertime due to the required low temperatures. No space for a temp controlled fermentation chamber or modified chest freezer in my place. So if this really works, it would enable me to brew an occasional lager during the summer. > * - just found my records. I brewed two batches at normal lager > temperatures with YCKC's L36 high pressure lager yeast in 1997. The > results were NOT unremarkable in that a CAP I brewed in June, 1997 > and fermented with this yeast at 50F (10C) took Best of Show in the > 1997 Michigan State Fair. Sounds promising! Especially if those fine results could also be achieved at room or basement temperatures. > BTW, I wonder if with the same "L-36" designation if the YCKC is the > original US source for this strain. I believe that Dan got it > directly from Germany, I think from Herr Durst of Durst Malting when > he was visiting GW Kent. I would be interested to find out, where to get this strain. Although living in Germany and having visited many breweries, I have not heard about German brewers using this strain. Berliner Kindl Brewery (a mega swill producer here - no remarkable beer except for their Berliner Weisse) ferments their lagers at 15 deg. C though. Next time I visit them, I will see that I can have a talk to one of the guys in the laboratory to find out, which yeast they are using. It is good yeast. I brewed a couple of fine Vienna style lagers with it, which turned out very nice. greetings from Berlin Gregor Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:25:51 -0500 From: "Berggren, Stefan" <stefan_berggren at trekbike.com> Subject: Cleaning the taps and lines I am curious as to how others out there clean their lines and taps. I have never really done this and am curious to see if my beers are affected. My basement stays about 60 degrees and dark with little moisture. I currently have an Oatmeal/Coffee Stout and IPA on tap for about a month and have noticed no change in flavour other than mellowing or conditioning. What is the recommended time to clean lines, cleaners, and methods for keg/tap maintenance? Any and all questions, comments and discussions would be great ! Cheers, Stefan Berggren Madison, WI....Where spring has sprung (at least we hope) and the Maibocks have comeforth to celebrate along with the Hop Rizomes !!!! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:13:04 -0400 From: "James Sploonta" <biere_god at hotmail.com> Subject: Here's a hot one: brewing in the bottle? Per Klein: "...This beer seems to continue the brewing process, finishing more integrated and balanced by the final sip." I'll leave it at that... Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:09:30 -0500 From: DHinrichs at Quannon.com Subject: Hops brew pubs In HOMEBREW Digest #3923 Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net> penned the following: >Hops carries some interesting on-site brews but they serve the stuff so cold any >flavor it might have had is frozen stiff. We have two around this area and both have this problem. All beers served so cold with frozen mugs the beer froze to the sides of a mug, Bleech. The last time it was January and 15 degrees outside. On my next round I had the bartender use a mug fresh from the dishwasher and run it under hot water, it helped a little. For this reason I avoid Hops and have told the staff at the two I have been to that I will limit my visits because they are clueless. Fortunately the fine Sherlock's Home's is closer anyway. Dave in Minnetonka, MN Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:31:20 -0500 From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com> Subject: Re: HSA stuff On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:15:54 -0400, Jim Adwell <jim at jimala.com> wrote: >A research article published on line by the The Journal of the American >Society of Brewing Chemists (http://www.scisoc.org/asbc/Journal/): > >Nonoxidative Mechanism for Development of trans-2-Nonenal in Beer. by G. >Lermusieau, S. Noel, C. Liegeois, and S. Collin > >http://www.scisoc.org/asbc/Journal/abstracts/search/1999/0204-05a.htm Thanks, Jim! This is an excellent article that certainly indicates there is more of a relation between oxidation of the mash and beer staling than I had expected. As I previously stated, I am not a technical brewer, but that does not mean that I cannot read and (to some degree) understand technical brewing material. To me, the most significant statement in the article is the section titled "Influence of the Brewing Process", and I quote: "We logically detect higher nonenal potentials when oxidation occurs during mashing (higher lipoxygenasic activity) or when the hot break is insufficiently eliminated (slight nonenal potential decrease) (Table III). Moreover, the nonenal potential of the wort is clearly related to staling of the flavor of the corresponding beers, confirming that flavor stability is not related to beer packaging but to wort preparation." There is not much ambiguity to this statement, especially the second sentence. The purpose of the experiment was to determine if oxygen introduced when the beer is packaged is a significant cause of staling. They conclusively proved that it is not. Drawing any other conclusions from the article is risky. Now all that being said, I am not exactly sure what "higher lipoxygenasic activity" means, but I will certainly try to reduce that in future! <grin> [Actually, folks, it simply means an increased oxidation of fat and fatty compounds, so there!] But more importantly, what is unclear is what this might mean to me as a homebrewer. Let us look at the information in more detail. In the experiment cited in the article, the control batch had 4 liters of CO2 bubbled through the mash during the first 15 minutes. The test batches had 4 liters of O2 bubbled through the mash during the first 15 minutes. Care was taken to prevent the introduction of oxygen during subsequent processing. Not too surprisingly, the levels of nonenal potential were significantly larger in the test batches than in the control, all the way from the boil to the end of the aging process. <TONGUE LOCATION=CHEEK> Therefore, I can with all confidence recommend that homebrewers NOT bubble O2 through the mash! You can quote me on this. I stand firmly behind this statement. It should be safe to bubble CO2 through the mash, but unless you are willing to sparge and boil in an atmosphere of CO2, it is possibly not worth your effort. OTOH, the article proves that you no longer have to be concerned with oxidation when the beer is bottled or kegged. So quit purging the bottles and kegs with CO2, and splash the beer around all you want. </TONGUE> Now, I am not saying that bubbling this much oxygen through the mash might cause cancer in laboratory rats, but I defy a homebrewer to dissolve that much oxygen into the mash by stirring, pouring, splashing around violently while swimming in the hot wort, or any of the things normally associated with creation of HSA. As the information provided by "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com> shows, the amount of oxygen that can be dissolved in water significantly decreases as the temperature rises. You simply cannot get that much oxygen into the hot wort using ordinary means. I think that it is time someone pointed out a fact that apparently is not obvious: Aeration is *NOT* the same as oxidation (although there is a relationship between them). Aeration is the process of exposing to air, or causing air to circulate through. It is a physical process. Oxidation (the opposite of reduction) is "the process of increasing the positive valence or of decreasing the negative valence of an element or ion" [New World Dictionary of the American Language]. It is a chemical process. (Strangely, oxidation does not require any oxygen to be present at all, as reaction with other elements/ions can increase positive valence just as well as oxygen. Just a little bit of trivia you can use to win a bar bet.) So what is a mother to do? Well, one possible answer is staring us right in the face. There is a very significant phrase in the quote from the article that is almost invisible, and I draw a VERY BIG implication from it: "... or when the hot break is insufficiently eliminated ...". The author shrugs this off with the parenthetical comment that there is a "slight nonenal potential decrease". I can only assume that this factor is largely ignored because of the purpose of the study is not to examine hot break. The data given, however, does not support this comment at all, especially under conditions of natural aging! The nonenal potential of wort that has a "bad" hot break (not defined in the article) is about 50% higher than that with a "good" hot break (again, not defined) before the boil, before fermentation, and after accelerated aging (five days at 40C - where have I heard this before?). It could be argued that 50% is a "slight" difference, I suppose. But after NATURAL aging (3 months at room temperature), the nonenal potential of the wort with the "bad" hot break is suddenly over 2 1/2 times higher than the wort with the "good" hot break! I fail to see how anyone could conclude 250% is a "slight" decrease. There is no data to indicate what happens if the beer is stored under more favorable conditions. WHOA! Hot break removal --- now THERE is something I can get my hands around! I conclude that the greater danger to the homebrewer is not from HSA, but from a lack of adequate hot break removal (except, of course, for those of you who happen to age your homebrew at 40C). From now on, I am going to be a lot more diligent in regard to hot break removal. The article contains very useful information, indeed! And, no, I am still not going to stay awake at night worrying about HSA. Perhaps I am just trying to justify what I do and observe in real-life. It seems to me that this is what science is supposed to be about --- an explanation of what we see around us. Using the information to make life better is art. Or is it engineering? I sometimes get those mixed up. Larry Bristol Bellville, TX AR=[1093.6,223.2] http://www.doubleluck.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:37:02 -0400 From: "Dennis Waltman" <PDWALTMAN at sablaw.com> Subject: Atlanta brews One extra addition. Its not a microbrewery , nor just a bar, is a place called The New American Shakespeare Tavern. Its really a Playhouse with English pub-American Style before the play and during intermission. http://www.shakespearetavern.com/ I've had very nice draft Guinness there (they take the extra time with Guinness), and they also have Tenants on draft along with other entries, and a variety of bottled beers aimed at English styles (they have also Rogue's Shakespeare Stout, and they have at least a couple American Megabrews). English Pub type food with American entries (a real nice black bean chili) Then around 7:30ish the food/drink closes down and then the play starts on the stage. Usually Shakespeare, sometimes other playwrights (Miller, Marlowe come to mind), and quite good. Nothing like drinking your pint of Guinness while the flashing swordplay of Romero and Juliet goes on 3-20 feet in front of your nose (hopefully the actors did not drink much before the show). If you are in Atlanta when there is a play on, I'd recommend it; and not only for the beer and food. Othello is going on now, and Comedy of Errors I have no affiliation with them except I drink a lot of their beer, eat a lot of their food, nibble on their spicy peanuts and enjoy the play. Dennis Waltman - --------------------------------------------------- The information contained in this message from Sutherland Asbill & Brennan LLP and any attachments is confidential and intended only for the named recipient(s). If you have received this message in error, you are prohibited from copying, distributing or using the information. Please contact the sender immediately by return email and delete the original message. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:53:38 -0400 From: Don Lake <dlake at amuni.com> Subject: Sunshine Challenge Competition - Top Ten Reasons You are invited to the Sunshine Challenge XIII in Orlando Florida May 17-19. We need entries, attendees and judges. For all information and forms go to http://www.cfhb.org/ Here are the top ten reasons to participate: 1. It's the largest club competition east of Texas and arguably the most fun. 2. It's being held just across the street from Universal Studios, which is the best theme park on the planet! Bring the wife and kids and they will appreciate your hobby for once. 3. Orlando's tourism industry has been hit hard since 9/11 and they're practically giving the place away (special room rates of $79 if you book before May 1). 4. Come meet and get to know the creative genius of Randy Mosher. 5. We give out impressive medals for win, place and show in all BJCP categories and not some cheesy ribbons. 6. There will be a Seminars, Pub Craws, Florida Brewers Guild Reception, Enlightening Room Craws, "Great Brewing Gadget Extravaganza", BJCP Exam, Pool Party, Award Ceremony and more. 7. We appreciate out-of-town brewers and prove it by mailing out the judge sheets and medals within two days (or hand them to you there if you attend)!!! 8. We have the best damn homebrewed band in the world, "Barley Wine" (these guys are so good they could get a record deal if they would only change their name to something cool like, "The Phenolics"). 9. Watch other clubs mount vicious attacks to wrestle the coveted "Sunshine Cup" from the Central Florida Home Brewers club as they desperately cling to their 13-year winning streak. 10. It's an MCAB Qualifying event. - Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:12:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Mahoney <pmmaho at yahoo.com> Subject: Koehler Brewers: I cannot give you any advice about brewing an original Koehler. But I can tell you some stories! Thanks Jeff for the official history. Now the personal history. I have lived in Virginia for 30 years, but my parents and most of my relatives are from Erie, Pa. Many still live there ('dreary Erie, mistake of the lakes'). When I was 12-15 years old, during the summer my parents would send me from Washington DC, where we lived, to Erie to spend time with my grandparents and uncles. I always had a great time spending part of the summer with my relatives, going to the beach (at the Peninsula), etc. One of my uncles was between marriages, so he would drive me around in his convertible, when he was off work. He would take me to the Koehler brewery on upper State St., and he would hammer down several brews with the workers there (he knew a lot of them). They would give the little kid a taste. It was forbidden fruit, and I loved it! But now I cannot tell you how it tasted! I was fascinated with the smells, the big equipment, the processes, the sounds, everything. I remember the brewery workers were very proud to show off their brewing equipment. My grandmother hated the smell of the brewery. It had a strange, heavy, sweet, stinky aroma that permeated a 6-8 block radius around the brewery. On still summer days it was really pungent! I remember the ads from the early-mid 1960s: "pour a Koehler Collar!" The old brewery still stands. I am told by my uncles that the city is trying to get a grant to rehab it, and turn it into trendy shops and art galleries. I told my uncle to buy for me the keystone over the brewery entrance if they ever decide to tear the building down. It is a large eagle emblem of the Koehler brewery. Damn thing is huge, probably weighs a ton or more, but it would look great in my yard! I thought Heilmann, not Schmidt, bought the brewery in the early 1970s during the brewery consolidations, then they closed it. Thanks for the memories! Paul Mahoney Roanoke, Va. Star City Brewers Guild Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:14:43 -0500 From: "Bates, Floyd G" <BatesFG at bp.com> Subject: Diacetyl Please Please don't beat me up too much for this question. How would I get diacetyl to form in a beer such as a Salvator Dopplebock clone? I have tried Irish Ale yeasts with very little diacetyl formation. I read somewhere that a brewery aerates the wort during primary fermentation to achieve the butterscotch flavor. Any ideas from the collective? Thanks in advance. Return to table of contents
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