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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Hello again! (Steven S)
  carafa use ("Czerpak, Pete")
  dissolved oxygen in sparge water ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Re: Koehler Beer (Jeff Renner)
  Question on yeast propagation method (Paul Shick)
  Re: water retained by grains (Jeff Renner)
  Re: water retained by grains (Rob Dewhirst)
  Down East Alers Competition Results ("H. Dowda")
  Traquair House Ale Label Mystery. (Victor Macias)
  Barley Wine Bottling Sugar ("John Gubbins")
  RE: Crystal Malt Powder/DME (Paddock Wood Customer Service)
  Movingbrews? ("Gary Smith")
  spiced ale ("James R Bain    B Elizabeth")
  HSA stuff (Jim Adwell)


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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 06:57:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: Re: Hello again!

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> Well, I've been off the list for several years, but I'm back! For anyone
> that remembers me, I'm now in Atlanta...moved from NC in 2000. I'm ready
> to brew again, and I'm hoping that someone can steer me in the right
> direction.

Try Homebrewing Supplies (homebrewingsupplies.org) Indian Trail
and Hwy-29 (up I-85). All the in town people have closed (Amber Waves and
BYOB). There is one or two homebrew shops in Alpharetta and Cobb but i've
never been there.


> I'm looking for good homebrew supply stores in the Atlanta metro area?
> Also, which microbreweries in this area should I visit?

If you can call it microbrew Gordon Biersch isn't too horrible. The
meirscham (sp?) is tasty if a little thin on body. Hops carries some
intresting on-site brews but they serve the stuff so cold any flavor it
might have had is frozen stiff. I hear Max Lagers is good but i've not
been. John Havard closed and I never even got there. If you want a fine
pint of Guiness go to Fado's in Buckhead (not a microbrewery), but thats
assuming you have absolutly nothing better to do besides end up there.
Atlanta Beer Garden is also a popular spot but it tends to attract the
crowd so i've avoided it. With the warm summer days here suddenly a nice
trip over to the Price of Whales (not a microbrewery) by the park and
sitting on the patio is quite nice. Sadly the beer selection is just okay,
and the taps are rarely cleaned properly. I wish they would pick up
obsecure english ales.




Steven St.Laurent	403forbidden.net	[580.2,181.4] Rennerian
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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:00:16 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: carafa use

A few HBDs back, Darrell from Plattsburgh asked about carafa use in a dark
lager.  Here are various batches I've done, dark grains in each, as well as
total grains used. Whenever I show carafa (I,II,III) I've always used the
dehusked version....

oatmeal stout: 0.25 lb I, 0.25 lb III, 0.75 lb II, 0.25 lb roasted barley in
13.25 lb total 
brown ale: 0.5 lb carafa I in 15.25 lb total
bitter:1 oz II in 7.25 lb total + 0.5 dark brown sugar
brown ale: 0.375 lb I, 0.25 lb english chocolate in 15.125 lb total
scotch wee heavy: 0.25 lb I, 0.25 lb III in 22 lbs total 
schwartzbier: 0.375 lb I, 0.1875 lb III in 12.81 lbs total

I use the carafa in the bitter for a bit of color (medium amber colored
beer) and I seem to remember Jeff Renner mentioning it as a stabilizing
agent as well.  The amount of carafa used in the brown ales (american
brownes) made them quite dark which was what I wanted.  Not light brown like
I consider newcastle.  Finally, the 0.5 lb total in the wee heavy was way
too much.  Color turned out to be quite dark in addition to a mild roasty
flavor being perceptable.  The first runnings were boiled down in that so
perhaps it contributed to a larger color formation than I designed/thought.

I like the use of carafa.  In some beers, the use of carafa and english dark
grains provide a nice balance behind a brew that is too smooth with only
carafa use and not quite smooth enough with only english dark grains.

Try carafa, you'll like it too.

Pete Czerpak
albany, NY


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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:36:56 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: dissolved oxygen in sparge water

Phil Yates questions the solubility of oxygen in hot water since the water
starts cold and has plenty of oxygen in it.  Water at room temperature
(20degC) has about 9.2 ppm dissolved oxygen in it.  Water at 66degC has 4
ppm dissolved O2.  water at 71degC has 3.24 ppm oxygen.  water at 77 degC
has 2.62 ppm in it and finally water at 82 degC has 2.0 ppm.  Boiling water
has basically zero oxygen in it.  That being so, sparge water has about 25%
of the oxygen dissolved in it that it had at room temperature assuming
equilibrium was reached.

Steve Alexander - any idea what order reaction the main HSA reactions might
be in terms of oxygen concentration?

Atleast up to 66degC, the dissolved O2 curve is linear.  At boiling, its 0
ppm.  If you look at the above points on a graph and follow the trend, the
O2 solubiilty looks linear with temperature.

While I believe HSA is a real phenomena, I don't take drastic measures to
reduce oxygen content.  I still pour my mash water from about 12 inches
above the bottom of the mash vessel, recirculate first and second running
about 6 inches above grain bed.  However, I don't get crazy and drop my mash
from a height of 18 meters or anything else.

Pete Czerpak
albany, NY


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:49:14 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Koehler Beer

John M. Fraser <FRASERJ at Nationwide.com> writes:

>Having a girlfriend, of last name Koehler, she is way interested in seeing
>if I can get a recipe of this old brand!  There is some attempt to revive
>the brewery in PA, where her family originated from early in the 1900's.
>
>If anyone knows of a Koehler recipe, please send it to me!

Rummaging around my library I find that Koehler Beer was made by the 
Erie Brewing Co. of Erie, PA.

This is from pp. 117-118 of  _The Connoisseur's Guide to Beer_ by 
James D. Robertson, Caroline House Publishers, Aurora, IL, 1982."  I 
suspect the early history is from _One Hundred Years of Brewing_ 
(1903), but that book has no index and my quick browse of it didn't 
turn up this brewery):

"Erie Brewing Co )Erie, Pa) Charles Koehler had been a grower of 
tulips in Holland for some years, then in 1840 he sold his land and 
sailed to America with his wife.  In 1847 he decided that he would 
become a brewer and established a small plant at 25th and Holland in 
Erie.  He had some success with the business and passes the brewing 
idea on to his sons.  When he died in 1869, his oldest son, 
Frederick, together with brother Jackson and partner A. L. Curtze, 
continued the business as Fred Koehler & Co.  Jackson left the firm 
in 1883 to buy the nearby Kalvage Brewery and both continued to 
operate independently until they decided to merge with the J.M. 
Conrad and Cascade Breweries to form the Erie Brewing Co. in 1899. 
The firm was managed by descendants of Jackson Koehler until 1979 
when Erie was purchased by C. Schmidt & Sons, Inc."

Robertson goes on to describe the current (1982) product line, which 
is mostly unremarkable, although "Koehler Beer (brewed with the Dutch 
Taste)" he describes as having "a flavor quite different from those 
of the vast majority of American beers."  There was also an ale, 
lite, pilsener, lager and "Imperial Cream Beer" introduced in 1976 
and brewed with "choice barley, malt, rice and hops aged for full 
three months for a hearty, robust, old-country taste."  This sounds 
like an attempt to use surplus capacity and produce a product that 
would regain lost sales, but, like nearly every regional brewery, 
they ultimately were swallowed up by a bigger brewery which has 
itself subsequently suffered the same fate.



I would suggest that you brew a Classic American Pilsner and perhaps 
opt for rice as the adjunct considering this latter, although they 
may have used corn for their everyday beers.  Your exact target would 
depend on which period you wanted to reproduce and which beer in 
their lineup.  The later beer would have had more adjunct, less hops, 
and lower gravity.

A good starter would be 70% 6-row, 30% rice, cereal mash, first mash 
145F, add cereal mash to get 158 (adjust as needed), Cluster hops for 
15-20 IBU, noble hops for flavor and finish for 20 IBU total maximum, 
OG 1.044, FG 1.009, use the old Christian Schmidt yeast if you can 
get it (the Koehler yeast is no doubt lost to history).

If you wanted to go for the "Imperial Cream Beer" you might want to 
up the gravity, but probably not the hops.

I can scan the two pages from Robertson's book with the somewhat 
uninformative tasting notes (generally low hopping).

If something indeed comes from reviving this beer, let me know. 
Perhaps I can help further.

Hope this helps.

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:56:24 -0500
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: Question on yeast propagation method


Hi all,

	Now that the MCAB festivities are finished, I've
been trying to get back into the brewhouse.  After addressing
some sanitation issues, I hit on one of our local breweries
for some ale yeast, and had a great conversation with one of
the more knowledgable brewers about how he treats this particular
strain (Wyeast 1272-American Ale II.)  His method of propagating
yeast is quite different than most homebrewers, and I'm curious
as to whether people have tried it successfully at a smaller
scale.

	He brews 10 barrel batches, but tries to avoid the expense
of buying tons of yeast by growing it up, like most homebrewers.
He starts with small starters, as we do, aerated thoroughly, up
to about a gallon or so, then does a half barrel starter of wort, 
similar in character to the planned batch, seriously aerated. He
pitches the entire half barrel into the main batch, aerating again,
about 18 or so hours later.  

	I questioned pitching this big a starter and aerating, 
worrying about oxidation/reduction of alcohol leading to off
flavors.  Like many homebrewers, I decant the fermented wort
off the yeast slurry, whenever I've built up a big enough starter
and had enough time for it to ferment out.  His reasoning is that 
the starter has reproduced about as much as it's going to, without 
producing much alcohol at the 18 hour mark, so he won't be oxidizing 
many alcohols and leading to premature staling or off flavors.  He
says its a matter of careful timing, so I presume it requires a
lot of familiarity with the quirks of the yeast strain.  In any
case, his beers are generally very clean, with good attenuation
and little evidence of problem fermentations.

	Has anyone tried to time their starters this carefully,
to pitch a large population of very active yeast while avoiding
adding much alcohol to the soon-to-be-aerated wort?  Has it worked?
Are there likely long-term worries, like selecting for yeast that
might have more trouble fermenting maltose or maltotriose, as 
opposed to glucose?

	Any feedback is welcomed.  It's nice to be back brewing,
at last!  Having 11 gallons of wonderful smelling APA chugging 
away in the basement is really uplifting.

			Paul Shick
			Cleveland Hts, OH


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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:08:37 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: water retained by grains

Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>

>I recently mashed a CAP-like pilsner and had close to 0.20 gallons/lb of
>water retained by the grains where I usually have 0.12.  The highest I've
>seen before was 0.17 with my system.
>
>Does flaked maize or 6-row retain more water than 2-row?

Glad to hear you are brewing this great beer.  You are more 
quantitative than I am in your brewing, I guess,  I have never 
measured retained water.  6-row has slightly higher husk than 2-row, 
and this would retain water, but I can't imagine it would be 
significant.  It is also slightly higher in protein, which would also 
retain it.  Flaked maize is little more than starch and a little 
protein.  Again, wouldn't seem to be all that different.

However, it sounds like you have the only data point.  Maybe the 
answer is yes.  Maybe you can repeat the experiment.

I wouldn't think this would affect your results.

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:52:19 -0500
From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Re: water retained by grains

At 10:08 AM 4/23/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Glad to hear you are brewing this great beer.  You are more quantitative 
>than I am in your brewing, I guess,  I have never measured retained water.

I try to sparge hands-off, so I measure my water in advance, and when it's 
done it's done.  I ran out of water this time, and it's the only time 
that's happened.  That's the only reason I noticed significantly more water 
was retained.






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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:43:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: Down East Alers Competition Results

http://www.sagecat.com/dea.htm


Congratulations to the winners. See you next year!



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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:29:55 -0700
From: Victor Macias <VMacias at foxsports.net>
Subject: Traquair House Ale Label Mystery.

Greetings, collective.

I recently bought a bottle of Traquair House Ale at a fine Southern
California sandwich shop/beer spot (infamous for keeping well-aged bottles),
and the label is different than the current label.  The bottle I have has a
label with an all off-white background and green cursive lettering.  Does
anyone know if this is an older label, and if so, what years Traquair used
it?  Thanks in advance for your help.

Victor Macias	
Pacific Gravity Homebrewers Club
Culver City, CA

     


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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:21:59 -0600
From: "John Gubbins" <n0vse at idcomm.com>
Subject: Barley Wine Bottling Sugar

A question for all you high gravity brewers out there.  I've been
brewing for years and notice that whenever I brew a high gravity beer
whether Stout or something else, if I bottle it it fails to carbonate
much.  This is not much of a problem since many of those styles are
not meant to be heavily carbonated.  It also takes forever for it to
carbonate.

In the most recent issue of Zymurgy there was a letter addressing this
question.  I am in the same fix.  I have a Barley Wine brewed around
last Christmas that is ready to bottle. The question:  Corn sugar as
suggested by Zymurgy or malt?  I don't know.  The argument is that
corn sugar being almost pure glucose does not have the oxygen
requirement that malt sugar does.  That is fine.  But...

Back in the dark ages when I learned to brew at a couple of now
defunct Colorado BOPs, corn sugar was used as an adjunct.  It left a
funky flavor in the beer.  When I first started brewing at home I used
corn sugar to prime with ala Papazian.  It worked but that same off
flavor was in there.  When I changed to malt, the off flavors
disappeared.  I've used malt ever since in bottling.  When I keg which
is most of the time, I force carbonate but those aren't high gravity
beers usually.

What do you suggest, folks.  Corn or malt sugar?

John Gubbins
n0vse at idcomm.com
Littleton Co  (big forest fire burning now)
Rennerian 1117,265.5



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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 13:16:04 -0600
From: Paddock Wood Customer Service <experts at paddockwood.com>
Subject: RE: Crystal Malt Powder/DME

Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net> pines:
"I can't seem to find anyone who carries crystal malt powder anymore. It's
ice cream season and I am pining for the stuff.  Anyone have any ideas?"

Why, yes, I do! Paddock Wood (AAAPBMSAMMR*) has it and Chocolate dry malt
extract as well.

http://www.paddockwood.com/catalog_malt.html#DME

$1.25 CND/100gm.  Which is something like $0.22/oz USD.

cheers,

Stephen Ross -- "Vitae sine cerevisiis sugant."

Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK, Canada
experts at paddockwood.com  www.paddockwood.com

*Affiliated As Anything, Please Buy My Stuff And Make Me Rich



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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 20:33:40 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com>
Subject: Movingbrews?

Hi,

I'd like to get an order from movingbrews 
(a duplicate parts list from my
last order to him for my RIMS project). His 
web page is still there but
says no more orders till the Christmas 
vacation is over. I've called,
reached a full voice mailbox & emailed 
him with no reply.

Anyone know if he's still going to be open 
for business? I can still get
what I need otherwise but it'd be nice to 
have all the parts be
consistent.

Thanks & Cheers,


Gary

Gary Smith

http://musician.dyndns.org


"I have more talent in my smallest fart 
than you 
have in your entire body"

 - Walter Matthau to Barbara Streisand 
(off camera while making "Hello Dolly") -




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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 19:34:17 -0700
From: "James R Bain B Elizabeth" <nutfarm at snowcrest.net>
Subject: spiced ale

THX to Jim, Richard, & Phil for your input and suggestions.  Have sent private
email responses.

Jim in Chico



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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:56:25 -0400
From: Jim Adwell <jim at jimala.com>
Subject: HSA stuff

Larry Bristol writes:

"I am somewhat bewildered by the implication that there is a relationship
between HSA and spoilage due to oxidation.  Perhaps I have missed it, but I
have seen no evidence (even anecdotal) from any source to imply such a
relationship.  I would be happy to see any evidence to which you can point."

Okay, Larry, here you go.

A research article published on line by the The Journal of the American
Society of Brewing Chemists (http://www.scisoc.org/asbc/Journal/):

Nonoxidative Mechanism for Development of trans-2-Nonenal in Beer.  by G.
Lermusieau, S. Noel, C. Liegeois, and S. Collin 

http://www.scisoc.org/asbc/Journal/abstracts/search/1999/0204-05a.htm

This is a link to a PDF file you can download, or read online with the
Acrobat plugin, if you have it.

This research article claims that trans-2-nonenal, which is perceived as a
cardboard flavor in stale beer, is not produced by oxidation; however, the
precursers to trans-2-nonenal are in fact produced by oxidative changes
during mashing.  It goes on to point out that boiling wort with a small
amount of potassium metabisulfite ( about 1.5 grams in 5 gallons of wort,
more or less) keeps trans-2 nonenal from forming, thus eliminating or
reducing the cardboard flavor staling of beer.

A quote from the article:

"We logically detect higher nonenal potentials when oxidation occurs during
mashing (higher lipoxygenasic activity) or when the hot break is
insufficiently eliminated (slight nonenal potential de-crease). Moreover,
the nonenal potential of the wort is clearly related to staling of the
flavor of the corresponding beers, confirming that flavor stability is not
related to beer packaging but to wort preparation."

The result of the research detailed in this article clearly points to mash
oxidation as being the cause of beer staling, at least in commercial beer
factories.  Does this affect homebrewed beer?  In my experience, not much.
I, like Phil Yates, enjoy the fact that beer changes as it ages, and
frankly I don't keep beer around long enough for it to taste like stale
cardboard.  I like fresh beer.  Do I worry about HSA and keeping air out of
wort?  Not at all, because it simply does not matter to me if my beer goes
stale in 6 months or a year, because it doesn't last that long.  If a
bottle of beer lasts a month without being imbibed it's a miracle.

Steve Alexander et al can worry and fret over mash oxidation all they want,
me and Phil are just going to make beer and drink it, and RDWHAHB.

Cheers, Jim
Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://brewery.jimala.com


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