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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Complete Brewing System recommendations? (jeff.stampes)
  Re: HSA Problems ("Steve Alexander")
  RE: AHA Board (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  recirculating cooled beer (Marc Sedam)
  changing the alcohol laws in NC (Marc Sedam)
  AHA Board Candidates Hops Restaurants ("H. Dowda")
  Neck Ring and/or Infection ("Andrew Moore")
  Re: Hop Rhizomes in Canada (Daniel Chisholm)
  Re: AHA BoA election ("phil sides jr")
  Jeff and James (Brian Lundeen)
  Lambic help ("chris eidson")
  counterflow chiller tips ("Sam Taylor")
  Cold Break Removal - why bother? (ECI) <s.riopel at eci-co.com>


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Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 22:32:09 -0600
From: jeff.stampes at xilinx.com
Subject: Complete Brewing System recommendations?


I've been brewing for around 9 years now, mostly all grain.  I've
assembled several different systems over the years, the most recent one
using a large cooler for a mash tun, a block and tackle on the garage
ceiling to lift the sparge water (and the final product), and a bunch of
'homebrewed' parts.

I've dreamed of something like a Brew Magic.  My wife (Gotta love
her....) out of the blue saw me looking at a few systems on the web, and
said it was OK with her if I buy one.

So now I'm trying to learn what I can.  I really like the idea of the
brewing sculptures from morebeer.com, since it occupies a minimal amount
of garage floor space.  However, I don't know if something like a Brew
Magic is considered to be superior.

For those who have gone out and splurged on a complete system, what tips
do you have for me?

Thanks,
Jeff




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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 02:25:44 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: HSA Problems

Larry Bristol across several posts writes ....

>I am somewhat surprised and disappointed in the hostile attitude I
>sense in your posting.  I hope you are having a better day today.

Your mock concern is latent hostility, Larry. I just noted that Alistair was
ignorant of the effects of oxidation. No hostility intended.  It's a pretty
common thing - f'rinstance you completely missed the boat  ....

>I am somewhat bewildered by the implication that there is a
>relationship between HSA and spoilage due to oxidation.

>I consider HSA and oxidation to be separate and unrelated topics...

>I think that it is time someone pointed out a fact that apparently is
>not obvious:  Aeration is *NOT* the same as oxidation

Bizarre comments.  Nothing wrong with ignorance per se - it's the only
vantage point  from which learning can take place - but when someone
misunderstands a topic yet makes jibes like 'my oxygen doesn't oxidize'
 ... - he's begging to play the fool.

Larry, if you took a trip to a decent library and looked under food science
you'd learn a lot about staling and oxidation.  I suggest you make the trip,
but I'll give you a headstart.

That atmospheric oxygen is compounded with wort phenolics during the mash
and boil  has appeared in journals since the early 1950s.  Oxidized
phenolics can lead to coarser flavors and darker color.  Your dictionary
translation of HSA is for the birds.  G.Fix (I think) coined the term HSA
but refers to it without name on pp 130... of PoBS.   The idea is from a
paper in Brewer's Journal, 1986 by Ohtsu et al who trace some fates of air
O2 taken up during mash&boil.  The impact of oxygen taken from air during
mash&boil = HSA.  There is no significant fate for oxygen in hot wort other
than oxidation !

I've posted a lot of citations before on the topic including the fine paper
Jim Adwell referenced.  You want more, see ....
JIB105pp269-274 ' "Use of O18 ...impact of oxidation process... "
(great paper by the some of the same researcher as Adwell's reference)
JIBv105pp301-307 - "Flavour Impact of Aged Beers'
JIB89pp415-415 "Liberation of Staling Aldehydes during Beer Storage"
ASBC57(1)pp24-28 "....Protective Mechanism of Sulfite Against Beer Staling
 ...."
JIB105pp237-242 "Enzymatic and Non-Enzymatic Oxidation in the Brewhouse ..."
Bamforth.
(a survey article in which Bamforth calculates rates for various oxidation
mechanisms).

During Mash&Boil Bamforth notes (several studies) that small scale brews
uptake 50 to 200 ppm of O2 ! That's a *lot* of oxygen.

>You simply cannot get that much oxygen into the hot
>wort using ordinary means.

You can and do and it's been published for a long time.  You're starting to
sound like Alistair.

A circumspect  Pete Czerpak asks
<any idea what order reaction the main HSA reactions might be [...] ?

Bamforth addresses this.  You have high O2 flow into wort due to rapid
depletion of O2 by oxidative processes.  Bamforth estimates non-enzymatic
processes could consume 100ppm of O2 per second (given oxygen) !!  It's
higher yet in the boil (near 1000ppm/sec).   Wort has near zero dissolved
oxygen as oxidation uses it instantly.  More O2 infuses from air by Henry's
Law.  'Course any splashing, stirring or air exposure adds in.  One study
(need more) measures 2/3rd of the O2 uptake occurs during the boil !

Most of the O2 starts off oxidizing phenolics and much of that ends
up in the break.  Still remaining oxidized phenolics are the cause of the
'coarser flavor and darker color' which Kunze attributes to HSA.
These are HSA's immediate effects.  Lipid and reductone oxidation
also takes place and lipid oxidation is subject to chain reaction.

Other oxidation products take time to develop yet owe their origins
to HSA oxygen.  Oxidized lipids later degrade into flavor
active compounds.  Aldehydes form but are masked behind sulfites
(produced by yeast) only to reappear when the sulfite levels drop.
Reductones and phenolics carry their oxidation state into the beer
only to be involved in reactions that transfer the oxidation state to
a more flavor active compound after fermentation.  Ascorbic acid
or reductones plus tiny amounts of Fe of Cu catalyze oxidation
transfers.

>Your experiment has nothing to do with HSA.  It would prove only that
>accelerated oxidation occurs at 40C and that Alistair's friends could
>detect that.

Right, it has to do with detecting staling effects due to oxidation
processes which can get their O2 from HSA.  Until Alistair wraps
his tongue around the idea that most of beer decline is due to
oxidative processes he doesn't know what to look for  He
(and you perhaps) are just looking for cardboard flavor.

>I have
>never detected an off-flavor in any beer that could not readily be
>attributed to some tangible cause rather than HSA.

You've never had an ale pick up sweet caramel notes, never had a beer lose
IBUs over time, never had a beer go downhill after several months ?   Never
had a subtle shift in flavor or added aldehydes as a dark beer ages out ?
Seems unlikely.  I taste these problems regularly time in home brews.

>HSA is simply not
>something that I lie awake at night worrying about.

Worry is useless, which is why I don't bother, but there are measures worth
trying.

RE: Jim Adwell's reference.
>  Drawing any other
>conclusions from the article is risky.

How about - "SO2 can reduce both lipid autooxidation and the nonenal
potential rise WHILE THE WORT IS BOILING".  Much more important I think.

>The test
>batches had 4 liters of O2 bubbled through the mash during the first 15
>minutes.[...] but I defy a homebrewer to
>dissolve that much oxygen [...]

No one said it dissolved. They bubbled a gallon of O2 thru 13gal of wort in
15min. You can bubble that much O2 from air with a mechanical stirrer or a
RIMS.

>WHOA!  Hot break removal --- now THERE is something I can get my hands
>around!

Break removal is important in keeping the oxidized long chain fatty acids
down, but you're missing the big picture.

Trans-2-nonenal (cardboard aldehyde) is a breakdown product of linoleic acid
oxidized in a certain way involving a specific lipo-oxygenase enzyme
(LOX-2).  Barley and malt contain variable amounts of LOX-2.
Cardboard-aldehyde is the super-star of HSA products - but you could try
hard and never form any.  The oxidized  phenolics, hops oils, reductones and
others are NOT left in the break, do not require special enzymes and will
cause more common if less dramatic damage.   The goal is to reduce
oxidation, not eliminate a single oxidation product.

A few practical suggestions ---
/sulfites in the mash/boil ***
/ CO2 or nitrogen in the mash/boiler headspace.
/ make a mash/boil 'float' to reduce surface area.
/ use a lid
/ use fresh crushed malt
/ remove break

(sulfite*** may effect 'repair' to damaged beer too).
*** some folks are allergic to sulfites.

Steven Parfitt's suggestion to pre-boil water is good thinking, but not very
effective.   Less than 5% of the HSA oxygen is in the water.

 -S




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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:35:11 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: AHA Board

Responding to Pete's challenge, I'll state that although I'm a rather
infrequent poster (maybe 2 dozen times), I've been reading the digest daily
for over 5 years. I find it as vital as my morning coffee and a good
breakfast to get me going, and the best way to keep up with the most recent
developments/issues/concerns in homebrewing.

I won't consume valuable bandwidth repeating my statement of candidacy here,
but you can read it if you wish at the AHA website. If elected I will work
as hard as I can to ensure that the AHA serves the homebrewing community
rather than the other way around. Thanks for your consideration, and be sure
to vote for Jeff.

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
http://hbd.org/franklin




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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:11:12 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: recirculating cooled beer

Jeff,

I've seen you post this once before, but methinks I missed
the subtlety of what you do.  Could you describe your setup
in more detail, specifically the return stream of beer?  Is
it at an angle to make a nice whirlpool?  Anything else you
can share about it?

I was thinking about doing something similar, but feared
that my santization wouldn't be that great and that somehow
it would take longer to chill down.  I use a CFC chiller.
Oh, and do you see more sluggish ferments with the removal
of that much cold break?  I thought there was some
discussion on that.

Renner for AHA Advisory Board-- now there's a no-brainer.

I've also just recently made a fantastic CAP, slightly
modifying your recipe.  Comes as close to Yuengling Original
Lager as any that I've made since I started making lagers.
Yummy!

Cheers!
Marc

- --

Marc Sedam
Associate Director
Office of Technology Development
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105
Chapel Hill, NC  27599-4105

919.966.3929  (phone)
919.962.0646  (fax)
OTD site :  http://www.research.unc.edu/otd
Monthly Seminar Info:
http://www.research.unc.edu/otd/seminar/




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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:25:23 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: changing the alcohol laws in NC

Hi all,

Bob's email to the collective reminded me to post this note.

Having moved to NC from NJ (shhhhh!  don't tell anyone...),
the 6%abv limit on beer in NC was particularly troubling.
After many years in NC I've decided to try and spearhead a
change in the laws.

I've seen, from time to time, messages posted here and
elsewhere talking about changing this law in NC.  I'd like
to ask those North Carolinians on the list (Bob Sheck, David
Craft, and Homebrewer of the Year Brian Cole come to mind)
to forward me any information you have in this regard.  I
think there are a lot of people out there trying to meet the
same endpoint.  Please email anything to me at
alechemist at unc.edu.

I'm also seeking out help here from (a) anyone who's been
involved in successfully changing the alcohol limit in their
state, and (b) the AHA, to assist with the process.  Ray...I
think a running diary of the process published in Zymurgy
would be interesting and instructive.  As we all know, such
a change is about increasing choice and styles available in
your state and expressly not about a cheap buzz.  If I
wanted that I could already buy Thunderbird in our
state-supported ABC stores.  Irony of ironies...

Cheers!

- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 06:45:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: AHA Board Candidates Hops Restaurants

Pete Calinski makes a good point about candidate
participation in the pre-eminent homebrewing
information exchange forum.  That they participate and
are willing to share makes them more attractive as
candidates, to some at least.

It may also be possible to search the HBD archives for
their actual past postings, perhaps giving a glimse of
attitude.

Also, it may be wise to note that some candidates
tried to participate here and were flamed off the
board for no fault of their own.

Apparently the location (brewer) of the Hops has a lot
to do with their beers.  In Columbia, SC were are
blessed with a brewer of national caliber, Ric
Haskins, whose beers are multilevel marvels of malt,
hops and ester, as appropriate.  Yeah, the corporate
wonks want to sell beer to the masses so the service
is in frozen glasses, but you can always ask for a
warm glass, order two at once and let them warm to
good drinking temperature.  At our Hops, it is more
than worth it.  Wish you were here.



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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:59:05 -0400
From: "Andrew Moore" <abmjunk at hotmail.com>
Subject: Neck Ring and/or Infection

I recently bottled an IPA-esque brew that has developed a 1-2mm whitish ring 
on the neck of each bottle. My perusal of past archival posts suggests that 
it is likely the result of an infection, although there is the possibility 
that some ingredients may cause a ring. Plus, I think I can detect an 
infection-like flavor, but: #1 I am too new at this game to really know 
conclusively by taste alone, #2 the fermentation temperature was a little 
too high (+/- 75 degrees) which may contribute some off-flavors and, #3 I 
used some specialty grains for the first time, so some of the new flavors 
could be just that.

So, my question:

Based on the following ingredients, is there any reason to believe that the 
ring is caused by the recipe content and not infection?

8# Light malt extract syrup
1# 60L Crystal
1/2# Biscuit malt
1/2# Malted wheat
1 tsp Gypsum
1/2 tablet Whirlfloc

Chinook, bittering
Fuggles, flavoring, aroma
Fuggles, hop tea added to secondary

Also, I have been using One-Step in a wash-and-drip-dry manner for all 
equipment and bottles. I am considering new santitation procedures; I will 
peruse the archives further.

Your help is appreciated.

Andrew Moore
Richmond, Virginia



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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:14:53 -0300
From: Daniel Chisholm <dmc at nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: Re: Hop Rhizomes in Canada

Eric Harding asked about hop rhizomes (or is it hops rhizomes???) in
Canada.

Richter's in Ontario (apparently a very reputable gardening place,
according to my gardening relatives) has some.  They have a minimum
order of six "plants", which in this case would be six rhizomes at $7
each.  I think shipping is then free.  They list Cascade, Hallertauer,
Mount Hood, Nugget and Willamette.

(cut'n'paste link:)
http://www.richters.com/Web_store/web_store.cgi?page=SubIndexPages/
HopsV.html&cart_id=3364477.2748

Puterbaugh Farms in Washington state also sell rhizomes.  Their web site
mentions this, but gives no further details.  I phoned them at
509-837-3616 one week ago and spoke to a nice lady named Emily, who told
me that they had Cascade, Chinook, Galena, Mt. Hood, Nugget and
Willamette.  They were nearly out (only 5-6 left) of Galena, Mt. Hood,
Nugget and Willamette.  Their rhizomes are $3.50 (US, obv.) each, and
seemed to have a very commonsense approach of simply putting the
rhizomes in with your hop order.  So if you need some hops, why not buy
a pound or two from them (I'm satisified with their hops!) and order
some rhizomes too?

http://www.hopsdirect.com/

So it looks like the selection at both these places is somewhat limited,
at least compared to http://www.freshops.com/onlinorders.cfm (but they
charge $15 phytocertification).  And no one seems to have domestic
Goldings (perhaps you could visit a friendly neighbourhood hop grower in
BC and ask for a cutting?)

FWIW, I ended up ordering some Cascade, Galena and Willamette from
Puterbaugh (piggybacking onto a big hops order).  Can't wait to plant
'em!



- -- 
 - Daniel
Fredericton, NB  Canada


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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:25:40 -0400
From: "phil sides jr" <phil at brewingnews.com>
Subject: Re: AHA BoA election

Jeff Renner writes:

>The annual AHA Board of Advisors election is now until May 15.  I am
>a candidate, and ask you for your vote.  I think I can represent you
>well.

>My candidate statement is below.  You can see all of the candidate
>statements at http://www.beertown.org/AHA/ballot.htm.  You can also
>vote online at that URL.  You must know your membership number.  If
>you do not know it, email info at aob.org or phone 888-822-6273.  You
>may also vote by mail with the ballot on page 23 of the May/June 2002
>Zymurgy.

>There are nine candidates, including three incumbents, for the five
>positions.  Please vote early and often.  Well, early anyway.  Do it

Actually there are ten candidates for the five positions.

I too would like to ask for your vote.  My candidate statement and the easy
to use ballot are at http://www.beertown.org/AHA/ballot.htm.  I am last on
the list alphabetically.  As Jeff said, you do need your membership number
(on your Zymurgy mailing labels).  Exercise your right to vote!

Phil Sides, Jr.
Silver Spring, MD

- ----
I don't have an attitude problem...  You have a perception problem.







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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:52:38 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Jeff and James

Jeff Renner, who really should know better, points us to:

> Time Out With:
> Alan Meeker, Cancer Researcher, Beer Man
> By Greg Rienzi
> The Gazette: The Newspaper of the Johns Hopkins University

Now, it's bad enough the article starts out with a picture of Alan clearly
on the verge of taking a swig of beer RIGHT FROM THE BOTTLE! 

But then, to add insult to injury, or maybe more accurately, chlorine to
ammonia, we come upon this quote from Alan:

"But then, even the size and shape of the fermentation vessel could have an
effect".

Alan, I don't blame you for this, you had no way of knowing that some
irresponsible lout would broadcast this whilst wounds are still healing.
This is squarely on the shoulders of [0,0]. Well, if anyone's looking for
me, I'll be down in the bomb shelter for the next few weeks. 

Maybe by then, Mr Sploonta will have gotten his Klein envy out of his
system, too. BTW, I'm convinced that "James Sploonta" is really a pseudonym
for a certain well known HBD personality. I mean, is it coincidence that if
we use the letter J as an abbreviation for janitor and ignore the obvious
spelling faux pas and lack of an adjective modifier on the final noun, the
letters in James' name can be rearranged to "J Pat seams loon"? Pretty
obvious to me, anyway.

Mutter mutter,
Brian Lundeen
Looking for his meds at [314,829] aka Winnipeg




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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 20:41:31 +0000
From: "chris eidson" <eidsonc at hotmail.com>
Subject: Lambic help

This past Saturday was my wife's birthday and over her chocolate cake we 
shared a Lindeman's Framboise.  While we both enjoyed it, my wife liked it 
enough to request that I make a homebrewed version.  I have Szamatulski's, 
"Clonebrews" recipe but have some changes I would like to make.  Since I 
will have access to wild blackberries later this spring, I would prefer to 
use fresh fruit v. the suggested Oregon Fruit Concentrate and "raspberry 
beer flavoring".  Any suggestions on quantity of fruit?  Also, I have a 
slurry of WLP400 Belgian Wit Ale yeast I was thinking of using it instead of 
Wyeast 1056 in the primary.  Will this be in keeping with style guidlines?  
Will it make the finished product too phenolic?  Furthermore, the side of 
the Lindeman's bottle, while somewhat vague, lists one of the ingredients as 
unmalted wheat which differs from the Clonebrew recipe.  Does it matter 
which one I use?  Any recipe tweaks (Szamatulski's recipe follows) or 
general words of wisdom are greatly appreciated.

4.5# Belgian Pilsner malt
1.5# Belgian Wheat malt
 .5# flaked wheat malt
1# rice hulls
 .5# Gambrinus honey malt
1.5 oz old Czech Saaz
1 tsp Irish moss
1/2 tsp elderberries for color
1056 American Ale yeast
1 46oz can Oregon Seedless Raspberry Concentrate
20 drops pectin enzyme
3278 Lambic blend yeast

Single infusion mash at 150 for 90 minutes. Elderberries and Irish moss at 
last 15 minutes of boil. Primary fermentation with 1056. Fruit concentrate, 
pectinase, and 3278 in secondary.  Bottle with 1 1/4 cup wheat DME and 12 oz 
of natural raspberry beer flavoring.

Thanks,
Chris Eidson
Birmingham, AL



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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:52:32 +1200
From: "Sam Taylor" <sam.taylor at peace.com>
Subject: counterflow chiller tips

I built a counterflow chiller in the weekend, it was more straightforward
than I expected.  I can offer the following tips (some of which aren't mine,
but all were useful):
1.	Feed the copper tube into the hose BEFORE you coil them up.
2.	Using a silver alloy braising rod will give much stronger joins, but you
need lots of heat.  I used a cheap (sort of) hobbyist's handheld propane
torch, but this still wasn't enough for some joins.  I had to sit the
assembly over my burner while braising to get more heat.  Blasting all that
heat at your copper parts makes them oxidise pretty badly.
3.	I used low temperature solder for the other end of the chiller.  This was
much easier, and I think the strength and temperature resistance of the join
will still be perfectly adequate.  It wasn't obvious to me at first, but
wort doesn't actually contact any of the joins so there's no need for
lead-free.
4.	I used the classic design with T - shaped fittings, but you need to cap
off one side of the T.  Having thought about it, I see no reason not to just
use a 90 degree elbow (drill a hole in it) and save yourself 2 extra joins.

I suppose I should add that I haven't actually used it yet, because I need
to fit a drain valve into my kettle.  However, I have tested it without the
wort running down the centre, and it all looks very good.

samt



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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:17:28 -0400
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=E9bastien?= Riopel (ECI) <s.riopel at eci-co.com>
Subject: Cold Break Removal - why bother?

I have pretty much the same kettle setup as Warren Widmayer: perforated
false bottom about 6 inches in diameter with a central drain syphoning
back up and out through at ball valve.  I've notice quite a bit of trub
stuck on top of the whole leaf hops layer after draining the kettle so I
know most of it gets trapped there.  I then cool using a counterflow
chiller.

I don't remove the cold break or any hot break that might get through.
My question is should I really care? The few replies to Warren's
question seemed to address more the various techniques being applied but
no one has brought forth any explanations or reasons why we should
bother getting rid of the cold break.  I have been told from fellow
homebrewers that there are compounds in there that are actually
beneficial and essential to the yeast.  Is this true or not?

Could some of you more technically enclined brewers give us some
scientific or reasonable reasons to want to remove the cold break.  It
does involve more work, or at the least more equipment.  Then, is this
additionnal work and expense going to make a real difference.

Sebastien Riopel
Montreal, Quebec
(rennerian coords?)



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