---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: HSA Problems - S Alexander's practical suggestions ("Gregor Zellmann")
  re: Alcohol Laws in NC ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Extract Brew Woes ("McCracken, Matthew B")
  RE: Lambic Help ("Steven Parfitt")
  RE: AHA Board ("Scott D. Braker-Abene")
  Re: recirculating cooled beer - yuengling lager (Marc Sedam)
  Used wine barrel ("Jon & Megan Sandlin")
  Re: HSA Problems (alastair)
  Re: cold break removal ("Kurt Schweter")
  An Introduction ("John Dow")
  RE: mash/boil oxidation (Brian Lundeen)
  Force Carbonating Root Beer (jeff storm)
  RE: Lambic Help (MOREY Dan)
  Wort oxidation ("Brian Schar")
  re: Lambic help (Steve Piatz)
  controlling foam? ("Richard Dulany")
  Power Tools ("Larry Bristol")
  Omaha & Chicago Recommendations (eriqjaffe)
  changing the alcohol laws in NC,Hops Restaurants,Neck Ring and/or Infection (Wil)
  Why not?? ("Jason A Koehler")
  My recirculation, chilling, aeration and yeast pitching method (Jeff Renner)
  Pinkus Munster Alt Clone wanted ("Michael R. Brzezowski")
  Re: AHA Board ("Steven Ford")
  Imperial Stout ("David Craft")


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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:09:34 +0200
From: "Gregor Zellmann" <gregor at blinx.de>
Subject: Re: HSA Problems - S Alexander's practical suggestions

Steve,

I don't doubt that HSA occures during "normal homebrewing" and what you
explain makes sense to me. You give a few practical suggestions, I would
like to know more about:

  > A few practical suggestions ---
> /sulfites in the mash/boil ***
Could you please report which sulfites you add to your boil/mash and how
much of them?

> / CO2 or nitrogen in the mash/boiler headspace.
This suggestion obvioulsly *would* minimize contact of O2 and mash/wort, but
isn't it a bit expensive to let a lot of CO2 or N2 flow out of your CO2 tank
for at least 4 hours? (90 min mashing, 60 min lautering/sparging, 90 min
boil - and I didn't count the heat up phase of the wort until it starts
boiling) I am afraid, my tank would be empty after one brewday. And a refill
costs me 20 USD. How stabil are "cushions" (sp?) of CO2 on mash (stiring)
and wort (stiring, evaporation)?

> / make a mash/boil 'float' to reduce surface area.
Possible while mashing. But doesn't one want a vigourous boil with an
evaporation of around 10 % of the wort volume? A "float" on the wort surface
would greatly reduce the evaporation rate, no? I hate DMS  related, cooked
vegetable taste in my beers (and I know what I'm talking about here)!

> / use a lid
Same as above

> / use fresh crushed malt
Easy for me

> / remove break
Pretty easy too


Which of the mentioned methods are you using with your brews?

friendly regards

Gregor
Berlin, Germany



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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 06:54:57 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Alcohol Laws in NC

Bob and Marc,

If you get enough emails indicating wide support and sufficient interest, I'd
strongly suggest getting Pat to set up an email list on the HBD server - or
you can do the same thing on yahoogroups.com

This was extremely successful for us in Florida. I had Pat set up a list
during our campaign to change the Bottle Laws. I've posted about this on the
HBD before, so you're probably aware of the situation. If not, let me know and
I'd be glad to talk with you about the specifics. It takes a lot of work and
emails to get homebrewers and other beer lovers signed onto the list
initially. But once
that's done, it can be an extremely successful tool in quickly mobilizing
phone & letter campaigns statewide at crucial points in your effort. Getting
your views known and putting pressure on the legislators at the right times is
huge.

We are lucky that we don't have alc % limitations here in Florida, so
since removing the bottle size restrictions we have started to see a lot of
excellent beers (mostly imports, but also micros) on the shelves that were not
previously available. This has made all the hard work getting the law changed
seem really worthwhile.

As a concerned homebrewer, beer lover, and  AHA Board of Advisors member;
I'd like to see the AHA in a leadership role in these issues too.
Unfortunately, that hasn't been possible.
Lobbying, either on the state or federal level, takes a lot of man-hours and
can be extremely expensive. The AHA doesn't have enough staff or budget (we
won't go there now, but obviously a shortage of cash was the reason for
increasing membership cost). The AHA has helped in other states, mainly with
support/communications, etc for the local folks who spear-headed the efforts.
However, if you can come up with
creative ways that the AHA can help out, please let me know. The Zymurgy angle
may be a good one. Lobbying is a key function of many trade associations and
I'd like the AHA to be more active in this area. Hopefully, we can find ways
to do more.

Still, for this type of campaign to succeed, it has to be a grassroots effort
(and don't forget that barley is a grass!). One of the crucial keys to success
is finding a local legislator who is willing to sponsor & fight for the
legislation. It's  not something that wins them points with the general
population or the other legislators - much the
contrary. They use up a lot of political capital and favors in such an effort.
And it may be a long fight,
taking more than one year to be successful. Still, there are legislators with
integrity and courage; hopefully you can find one to sponsor
your bill.

Anyhow, good luck in your efforts

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL








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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:37:41 -0700
From: "McCracken, Matthew B" <matthew.b.mccracken at intel.com>
Subject: Extract Brew Woes

Hi All:

I'm just starting down the homebrew path and this is my first post, so hello
to you all!!

I'm sad to say that my first two attempts at extract brewing have gone awry.
My first attempt was wrought with trouble, so I wasn't surprised when white,
moldlike dots started appearing in my secondary fermentor.  In fact, other
than a clearly off-flavor from whatever that was, the beer was surprisingly
tasty.

It's my second attempt that troubles me.  I just can't figure out where I
went wrong, but I suspect it was in the fermentation.  For starters, here's
my recipe:

6lbs light DME
1 oz Galena (bittering - 1hr)
1 oz Fuggles (15 minutes)
1 oz Willamette (aroma)
Wyeast 1056 "smack" - I made a starter wort 1 day prior to pitching that
seemed fine
A little Crystal 40 steeped before the boil (30 minutes)
(My water was Poland Spring, regular not distilled)

I boiled with 3 gallons of water.  I used a copper wort chiller to bring the
temp down to 72F or so and then combined it with another 3 gallons of 70F
preboiled water, aerated it (by pouring back and forth between 2 20qt pots a
bunch of times) and then used a 6.5gal glass carboy with airlock to ferment.

The fermentation went fantastically and I kept it right at 70F in the dark.
I originally planned to do 12-14 days or so in the primary and go right to
bottling (my last secondary fermentation nightmare still had me spooked),
but the krausen never fell and the yeast never really settled.  I let it go
20 days before I finally gave up and bottled.  I actually had to break
through the "film" made by the krausen to get my siphon in the beer.  I
primed with cane sugar and the carbonation seemed to work fine, but the beer
tastes like fermented grapefruit juice.  To say it tastes "estery" would be
a major understatement - it tastes like I mixed some grapefruit juice with a
little booze, but it's nothing like beer.

Any thoughts on what happened?  Shouldn't my krausen have settled to the
bottom after 20 days?

 -Matthew McCracken




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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 09:03:19 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Lambic Help

chris eidson Ponders pLambic

First a couple of links:

http://hbd.org/brewery/library/LmbicJL0696.html

http://www.liddil.com/

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pvosta/pcrbier1.htm

And then the proverbial warning:

This stuf takes forever to age properly! Really, don't plan on drinking any 
of it for at least a year. Better yet 1.5 - 2 years. My first batch is nine 
months old, and was tasted by a couple of certified judges (BJCP) who agreed 
that it had potential, but was still too young. It was overly "horsy" and 
pretty much undrinkable still. I currently have four 5 gallon fermenters 
aging at different stages, and am not about to give up yet.

The purpose of the 1056 is to give a neutral profile to the beer, then let 
the other beasties in the Lambic Blend take over to develop the pLambic 
profile. There is however no reason not to use the WLP400. It will give your 
beer a slight flavor profile of a wit as background to the beer. Ferment on 
the low temp side if you wish to minimize this.

I added can of Oregon Rasberry Puree to one of my batches and it was almost 
undetectable. I may have added it too early, but the batch was near six 
months old at the time.

I have used unmalted wheat in my batches, and they have come crystal clear 
after six months. I suspect the beasties in the Lambic Blend are using it 
for food and eliminating the haze it would throw in a fresh Wit.

I think the recomendation is around 5# of fruit for each gallon of beer. 
This varies with the type of fruit. Strong fruit - less, light flavor fruit 
 - more.

With this recipe, you don't need the rice hulls. Raw Wheat is really sticky 
in a mash unless it is gelatinized by boiling it as a decoction. The 
original recipe called for raw wheat and this is why the rice hulls. I would 
suggest a couple of cups of flour as an addition per five gallons (thenkeep 
the rice hulls). I use Unbromated (unbleached) flour when I can't find the 
raw wheat.

By the way, this is a good time to start preparing your hops for next years 
pLambic season. Go through your hops and pick out any old low %AA hops you 
can spare. Put them in a paper bag and store them in a garage, or outside 
protected from the weather. Let them "breathe" all summer and then bring 
them back in in the fall. They will be ready for next year.

I don't use any pectin enzime, and don't see a reason for it. Clarity is not 
an issue with Lambic beer.

Best wishes on your journey...

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN 5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck



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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:36:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: AHA Board

Pete Calinski writes: 

"So, how many of the candidates read the HBD?  This is a test"

I Say: 

Pete, I read it every day. Sometimes twice. Although, I do not post as
often as I have in the past. I feel a great connection to the HBD and the
guys who run it. A fews years back the AHA had control of the HBD and
pretty much killed it.

I was contemplating taking it over when I realized that I could sucker...
errr I mean talk Pat Babcock into running it. I knew that Pat (now a BOA
member) would ultimately do a better job. There is not a day that goes by
that I do not appreciate what Pat & Karl have done with the HBD site and I
thank them for that.

I am running for the BOA yet again also. Why me you ask? Well... I have
asked myself that time and time again. I have been a long time outcast of
the AHA and I have spoken against them on many an occasion. I posted their
earnings and Charlie's tax returns to the web to make so called "members"
aware of where their money was being spent. I have time and time again
fought with the AHA on issues regarding what "membership" really is. I
have argued against the policies of many of their employees and the way
that some of those employees have been treated. I have tried to force
change and gather support of others that will force change to an
association that often seems 5 years behind the brewing community. I have
hosted the BigBrew Chat for the last several years as well as having had
my recipe brewed as a BigBrew recipe. Unlike many others I have continued
to try to change the way things are done within the AHA on several
different levels. I will continue to speak out whether or not I am elected
into this secret society of mysterious doings.

I do not really believe that the AHA or AOB is a driving force in the
brewing world. Yet, I think they should be. I have watched them do little
to nothing when it comes to legalization of homebrewing in the few states
where homebrewing is still against the law. I would like to see that
changed also. I would like to see many things change in the organization.
I want to see the AHA become what it is supposedly meant to be: A
membership-driven association funded and run by members.

I know... I know... Pure craziness right?

Every year the BOA elects new members... What do these members do? What do
they vote on? Do they simply sit around drinking fine Cognac whilst
smoking Cuban cigars all the time wearing powdered wigs and sitting in
large over stuffed comfy chairs? I personally want to know. I think that
any AHA member that voted (or chose not to vote) should know what these
guys do for the betterment of the AHA and brewing in general. About the
only time we hear about them is right before elections or the occasional
scandal (Remember the psychotic ramblings of the "Dump Gump" posts and
such?).

Maybe... Just maybe we all can get involved just long enough to make some
changes and get things really happening.

I may be going out on a limb here but what the hell. If you can't stand me
or think that I am still just a pompous ass please do not vote for me.
However, if anything in this long drawn out wind bag of a "send this to
the NY Times Unibomber like" diatribe even remotely hits a target for you
then maybe give me a chance.

There are brewers like Phil Sides, Jeff Renner, Steve Jones, Alberta Rager
etc. on the ballot. All of them can make a difference and have great
support of the local homebrewing community from which they reside.

So... If you don't care to vote for a silly wanker like me take the time
to vote for some of the others. They deserve it. Maybe more than I ever
will. My grandfather once told me that change does not happen on its
own... You have to make it happen. Every Zymurgy subscription buyer has
the chance to make that "membership" be a real membership and not just a
subscription.

Take the time to read the candidate statements. There are some great
people there.

THEN VOTE!

http://www.aob.org/AHA/ballot.htm

C'ya!

 -Scott "Skotrat" Abene

=====
"It's Mister Mischief with a trick up his sleeve... 
Roll up on you like Christopher Reeves"
 -D12

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat - Skotrats Beer Page
http://www.brewrats.org - BrewRats HomeBrew Club



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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:05:54 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Re: recirculating cooled beer - yuengling lager

I've had a couple of requests for my Yuengling Lager clone.  I made a 15 gallon
batch, so converting it to 5 gal may be different than just dividing by 3.

15 gallon batch

GRIST
11 lbs DWC pilsner malt
3.5lbs light Munich malt
2 lbs yellow corn grits
2lbs white corn grits

HOPS
3.5oz Ultra -- first wort hopped
2oz Horizon (15%aa)-- 60 mins

YEAST
White Labs German Bock Yeast (new!)
EDME dry yeast

"GOODS" MASH
Take 4lbs of pils malt and combine with 4lbs of corn grits. Add 3 gallons of
water. Heat to 156F. Hold for 30 mins. Heat to boil. Boil for 20 mins. Add back
to main mash

REGULAR MASH
Heat 7 gal of water to 110F. Hold 10 mins. Add the "goods" mash to the kettle.
Hold full mash at 146F for 45 mins. Heat to 156F. Hold for 15 mins. Heat to
170F. Begin sparge.

Sparge with 10 gallons of 175F water.

Separate wort into two kettles. Collect 12 gallons of wort into one kettle, and
6.5 gallons of wort into the other kettle. Boil for 75 mins, adding hops at 60
mins.

Large batch fermented with Bock yeast (true CAP) at 48F. Small batch fermented
with EDME yeast (made a nice CACA).

Boil. Chill. Ferment. Keg. Drink.

It's been only about a month out of the boiler and it is one tasty beer.  Very
close to my recollections of Yuengling Lager (not Yuengling Premium--YUCK!).

If you want to do it just like me, make sure some of the goods get stuck on the
bottom of your direct-fired mash tun and scorch into something resembling a
pleistocene era stone which still cannot be removed.  It adds that certain je
nais ce quoi to the beer.  <tongue firmly planted in cheek>

Marc
"Cervesariis feliciter"
(Long life to the brewers!)

- --
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 06:55:53 -0700
From: "Jon & Megan Sandlin" <sandlin at bendcable.com>
Subject: Used wine barrel

I purchased a used wine barrel (red wine) yesterday and instantly filled it
with water to keep it from drying out.  I plan to use it as a very large
beer fermenter.  What should I add to the barrel to clean it and store it
for an indefinite period of time?  Thanks in advance for any help.

Jon Sandlin
Bend, OR




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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 07:14:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: alastair <alastair at odin.he.net>
Subject:  Re: HSA Problems

Steve Alexander retorts:
> Your mock concern is latent hostility, Larry. I just noted that Alistair
> was ignorant of the effects of oxidation.

Ignorant?  If I am ignorant of the effects of oxidation, then so are all
the certified, national and grand master BJCP judges who mistakenly think
my beer is any good (even though the didn't know it was mine).

You may have missed my point:  For those of us who brew beer and then
enter it into a forum where objective criticism is given, it becomes
apparent that ignoring the potential effects of HAS has no perceivable
impact on the beer's quality, even after several months.

I do not doubt your extensive knowledge of brewing (mostly from commercial
sources from those papers you reference).  All I'm saying is, that from
practical experience, objective experimentation and critical analysis, HAS
is of no concern in a home brewing environment.  I'm not saying that my
beer will not oxidizes, but the treatment of hot mash and wort would
appear (and not purely from my own ignorant point of view) to have little
impact on the rate at which it stales.

Alastair



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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:50:38 -0400
From: "Kurt Schweter" <KSchweter at smgfoodlb.com>
Subject: Re: cold break removal

while not necessary, you will sense ( real or imagined )
a cleaner favor profile - I skip secondary in favor of keg conditioning
 in my system I counterflow to a 10 gallon
cornie then the next morning to my fermenter
I probably wouldn't bother if I had to rack from a carboy
but, give it a try,make sure you areate very , very well

Kurt Schweter
Executive Chef
Long Beach Convention & Entertainment Center
And The Aquarium of the Pacific
300 E. Ocean Blvd
Long Beach Ca, 90802
Tel: 562 499-7539
Fax: 562 499-7682

kschweter at smgfoodlb.com



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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 16:57:12 +0100
From: "John Dow" <jmd at nelefa.org>
Subject: An Introduction

I'm one of those "new brewers" Gary Chumney mentioned in his post of 28th
April, and just thought I'd pop my head aorund the door and say hello :)

I live just outside Edinburgh, in Scotland, and have therefore no problems
whatsoever finding yummy beer to drink (which I do (a lot (but not to
excess))). Anyway, I was faced with the double quandry of a very large empty
(purposeless) garage, and no decent local pub (the good ones being, sadly, a
car drive away), so I decided to invest the money I would normally spend on
bottles of Orkney Dark Island, Old Peculier, Ossian, Traquair Bear, etc, and
invest in some books and equipment to facilitate the production of lovely
beery goodness in my very own home.

And so here I am - reading everything I can find (including this extremely
informative mailing list) and preparing for my first batch. Wish me luck -
I'm sure I'll be back with questions.

Slainte

John Dow
Dalkeith, Scotland





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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:15:42 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: mash/boil oxidation

Steve Alexander writes of limiting oxidation during mash/boil:
> 
> A few practical suggestions ---
> /sulfites in the mash/boil ***
> / CO2 or nitrogen in the mash/boiler headspace.
> / make a mash/boil 'float' to reduce surface area.
> / use a lid
> / use fresh crushed malt
> / remove break

These all seem like sensible precautions, and for the most part, are
achievable with so little effort that I would wonder why people wouldn't do
them (says the guy who currently practices only 3 out of the 6). Some
comments and questions come to mind.

Not only shall I continue my mash sulfiting practices, I am now going to add
a little more into the boil as well. And I might just start playing around
with very small sulfite additions post-fermentation. Certainly, given the pH
level of beer, using sulfites to provide an ongoing protective level of
molecular SO2 similar to what is desired in winemaking would no doubt yield
the dreaded sulfite stink that has kept homebrewers away from this chemical
for as long as I've been reading the popular literature. But in small
quantities, it might do some good. After reading Steve's descriptions of how
oxidation manifests itself, there is no doubt in my mind that my beers are
showing signs of oxidation as they age. While I do not pick up the
cardboard, several of my beers have developed an unpleasant caramel
character, and I now realize I need to be taking additional steps to limit
oxidation.

If I blast the kettle headspace with a blanket of CO2, would the turbulence
created by the boil not simply cause this to be displaced or mixed with air
from outside the kettle for the majority of the boil? I suppose a lid would
help, Dave B has been preaching for years about the improvements he
experienced when he started partially covering the kettle. I don't use the
lid I have because I find it too difficult to see foam-ups. Perhaps a nice
plexiglass lid.

The 'float' idea has me curious. I have used a float of blue poly in the
mash tun to assist in insulation. Compared to the oxygen introduced when the
grains are mixed in, is the amount taken up at the mash/air interface while
it is sitting quietly really that significant?

How would you fashion a kettle float? Would the wort not foam up around this
and leave you with the same problem?

Finally, may I suggest we get rid of the acronym HSA, since so many people
have such a strong objection to it. Let's call it MBO instead. This should
accepting the validity of the science. "See, I knew there was no such thing
as HSA, now this MBO thing, well... There's something that's got me lying
awake at night..." ;-)

Cheers
Brian


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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:32:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: jeff storm <stormyjeff at rocketmail.com>
Subject: Force Carbonating Root Beer

I know this is not beer related, but 
I am making some root beer and need some 
help on the carbonation.  I will keg the root
beer and force carbonate it.  

I have researched but unable to locate the
correct PSI to force carbonate.  Any 
suggestions?

Private emails are welcome.

Thanks
Jeff Storm
Louisville CO

=====
Jeff



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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 14:50:38 -0500
From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com>
Subject: RE: Lambic Help

Chris wrote:

<Any suggestions on quantity of fruit?

For "assertive" fruits such as raspberries and cherries, use between 1.5 and
2lbs of fruit per gallon of Lambic.  Add the fruit to the secondary.

< Also, I have a slurry of WLP400 Belgian Wit Ale yeast I was thinking of
using it instead of 
Wyeast 1056 in the primary. Will this be in keeping with style guidlines?
Will it make the finished product too phenolic?

3278 Lambic blend includes the necessary yeast to due the initial
fermentation.  If my memory is correct, there is a Belgian ale strain and a
sherry strain along with all the Lambic goodies.  I brewed a Lambic this
weekend and this blend is all I'm using.  Last year some friends and I
brewed a Lambic starting fermentation off with 1056.  We added the Lambic
blend after primary.  I thought it left the brew too clean.

< Furthermore, the side of the Lindeman's bottle, while somewhat vague,
lists one of the ingredients as unmalted wheat which differs from the
Clonebrew recipe. Does it matter which one I use?

Unmalted wheat is the traditional choice for Lambic.  You can use malted
wheat if you choose, I suspect it will change the flavor and mouth feel
slightly.  Wheat should make up at least 30% of the grist, so I would
increase the amount you used.

< Any recipe tweaks (Szamatulski's recipe follows) or general words of
wisdom are greatly appreciated.

Here is the recipe for the Kriek I made last weekend:

Indian Kriek
6.00  lbs 2-row pale malt
3.00	lbs flaked wheat
0.18  lbs crystal 40L
0.60  oz homegrown Santiam hops from 2001
3278 Lambic blend
Adjust water profile for Brussel region

Mash Schedule step infusion (1.75 qt/lb grist):
15 minutes  at  117 F
15 minutes  at  136 F
15 minutes  at  149 F
15 minutes  at  162 F
bring the entire mash to boil for 15 minutes
sparge with 200 F water.

* It is desirable to have unconverted starches in a Lambic wort.  The short
mash time, and the boil help achieve this.  In addition, some tannins are
extracted which are also desirable for this style.

At secondary add:
8.00  lbs cherries
4.00  oz oak chips (soak over night then boil then minutes)
1.00  oz vanilla

If you are interested, check out BABBLES' website which is hosted by the
Homebrew Digest (Thanks!).  On our site, we have an article about brewing
Belgian ales on the homebrewing page.

http://hbd.org/babble/

Cheers and Good Luck,
Dan Morey



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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:34:28 -0700
From: "Brian Schar" <schar at cardica.com>
Subject: Wort oxidation

Steve, thanks for the long exposition about HSA.  I feel like I have a
pretty good layman's understanding now, which is no small feat, because I am
really, really bad at chemistry.

Steve Alexander wrote:
<<Bamforth estimates non-enzymatic
processes could consume 100ppm of O2 per second (given oxygen) !!  It's
higher yet in the boil (near 1000ppm/sec).   Wort has near zero dissolved
oxygen as oxidation uses it instantly.  More O2 infuses from air by Henry's
Law.  'Course any splashing, stirring or air exposure adds in.  One study
(need more) measures 2/3rd of the O2 uptake occurs during the boil !>>

Merely boiling the wort causes 2/3 of the HSA, if I read this correctly.
This seems to far overshadow the other causes of aeration (which might be
why some of the guys can abuse their mash without having much, if any,
flavor problems--that abuse only counts for 1/3 of the problem).  Hence your
recommendations to manage oxidation in the boil--and I plan to try these.

How should a brewer deliver sulfite to the wort in such a way as to combat
HSA without causing an off-flavor due to the presence of sulfur compounds?
Any suggestions?  In particular, do you have a recommended amount of a
particular chemical that would be helpful to add?  I am eager to try
suggestions out on a batch of hefeweizen I plan to brew this weekend or the
weekend after.

Brian Schar
[2040.5, 273.6] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 15:38:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steve Piatz <piatz at cray.com>
Subject: re: Lambic help

Chris Eidson <eidson at hotmail.com> asks about a lambic recipe.

> 4.5# Belgian Pilsner malt
> 1.5# Belgian Wheat malt
>  .5# flaked wheat malt
> 1# rice hulls
>  .5# Gambrinus honey malt
> 1.5 oz old Czech Saaz
> 1 tsp Irish moss
> 1/2 tsp elderberries for color
> 1056 American Ale yeast
> 1 46oz can Oregon Seedless Raspberry Concentrate
> 20 drops pectin enzyme
> 3278 Lambic blend yeast

The recipe would be OK for the grist but you shouldn't actually need
the rice hulls for such a small percentage of wheat.  You could go with
unmalted wheat instead of the malted version, I generally use dry
extract to make my lambics.  I would leave out the Irish moss, the beer
will have more than ample time to clear.  You can also skip the pectic
enzyme in a fruit lambic, remember these are beers that take years to
finish.

For the hops, any aged hop variety is OK.  The hops should have no hop
aroma.  I age mine in a paper bag in the attic of the garage for one or
more years to get the appropriate aging.

The raspberry amount is way too low.  I have had several different
batches that used three cans (equivalent to ~10 pounds of fresh fruit)
in competitions and they were usually judged as needing more
raspberry.  More recently I have went to 4 or more cans of puree per 5
gallon batch which seems to have solved that problem according to the
scoresheets I have received so far.  If you up the raspberry amount you
won't need elderberries for color.  I have thought about several
atypical fruit lambics but hadn't considered elderberries.

As for the Wyeast 3278 lambic blend, I have one going but by my
standards it is still too young to try.  My usual lambics (I do have
9 dedicated lambic fermenters) use a blend of pure cultures of Brett.
and Pedio. plus a blended culture derived from numerous commercial
lambics such as Boon, De Cam, Hannssens, Cantillon, and others.  For
the primary fermentation cycle I use whatever yeast I have available,
in the end which yeast you use isn't going to make that much
difference.

- -- 
Steve Piatz in Mendota Heights, MN


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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 16:02:40 -0600
From: "Richard Dulany" <richarddulany at hotmail.com>
Subject: controlling foam?

Does anyone have any suggestions for controlling excessive foaming during 
primary fermentation? I pitched a very active starter (White Labs Belgian 
Abbey Ale) into a high-gravity Abbey-style ale and the foam production has 
just been unbelievable. The lid popped off my plastic-bucket primary twice 
yesterday alone even though the airlock was not blocked.

Also, is there a way to control excessive foaming when opening bottles of 
very high-gravity beer? My 2000 Maibock still foams out of the neck of the 
bottle after it's opened, despite nearly 1 1/2 years in the bottle.

Yours in foam,
Ricardo





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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:30:11 -0500
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Power Tools

Words are powerful tools.  But like most things with so much power,
they are a two edged sword.  When a thought is worded with care, those
words contain the power to inform others and perhaps to influence their
opinion.  When worded carelessly, the thought and the information is
most often lost.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but it is my considered opinion that the purpose
of this digest is to exchange thoughts, opinions, and information about
homebrewing with others having a similar interest.  Since the
knowledge, experience, skills, and special interests of the
participants vary widely, it is fundamental in such a medium that the
words chosen to express our thoughts show respect for the thoughts and
opinions of others, regardless of their level of knowledge, experience,
and skill.

One may, of course, disagree with the thoughts expressed by another. 
When disagreement is expressed in a respectful manner, all of the
participants benefit.  When disagreement is wrapped in words that
demean and degrade, the otherwise valid information within is simply
lost.  Additionally, many individuals (including those who are not the
direct target) will be discouraged from future participation in the
dialog.  Every time this happens, we all lose.

I give a great deal of thought to the words I choose to express my
thoughts.  I hope it shows.  As an example in point, this article
evolved over a period of some 36 hours.  During that time, it was
written, edited, reedited, and rethought through many iterations.  Why?
 Because it is important to me that the message be clearly understood;
any negative connotation I might unwittingly express will hinder that
message.  Spending so much time does not mean, of course, that I always
get it "right".  But I can safely say that every word and phrase is
chosen with at least some degree of care.

As an amateur linguist, I recognize that  words can be used in a many
ways.  A frugal linguist might use words in a frugal manner.  A joyful
linguist might use words in a joyful manner.  I enjoy using words in a
cunning manner, forcing the reader to actually think about what he is
reading.  A secondary (and cunning) purpose of this paragraph is a
subtle(?) expression of an off color joke.  Humor is a good way to
lighten the mood, but only when it is used in a way that does not
belittle the readers.

I try very hard to keep my comments positive no matter what.  I have
always striven to do so in the past, and will continue to do so in
future.  I invite all participants in this forum to join me in this
spirit of mutual respect.  There is not one of us that has all of the
answers concerning the subject of homebrewing.


Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX   AR=[1093.6,223.2]
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 22:31:39 +0000
From: eriqjaffe at att.net
Subject: Omaha & Chicago Recommendations

I've been lurking for a long time now, but I was hoping 
to call upon the wisdom of the collective...

I'm going to be passing through Omaha, and was wondering 
if anybody could recommend any brewpubs in the area.  

After I've passed through Omaha, I will be settling in 
the Chicago area, and I'd also like recommendations of a 
HB supply store, preferably in the Northwest Suburbs.

My thanks to all...

- --Eriq.


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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 22:30:53 GMT
From: Wil at thebeermanstore.com
Subject: changing the alcohol laws in NC,Hops Restaurants,Neck Ring and/or Infection

>Changing the alcohol laws in NC
Marc Sedam....
NEW JERSEY !!!!!!! My Gawd. You aint' from around here are ya? ;-)

If you change it in NC then SC may follow. Please, PLEASE make it
happen!. The folks in SC have never been exposed to belgian or High
gravity beers and my expired belgian yeast collection proves it.

>Hops Restaurants...
Funny, Here in the Charleston area we have had 4 brew "masters" at the
local Hops. Two of them were promoted from waiter/cook/bus boy and all
4 were fired or transferred for ANY spark of originality. Go figure

>Neck Ring and/or Infection.
I have used One Step for almost every type of sanitation (pump,
carboy, bottle) and been very happy, perhaps you are overlooking
something.

Wil Kolb
The Beer Man
Plaza at East Cooper
607 B Johnnie Dodds Blvd
Mt. Pleasant SC 29464
843-971-0805
Fax 843-971-3084

Wil at thebeermanstore.com
www.maltydog.com
www.thebeermanstore.com

God bless America!


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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:36:09 -0500
From: "Jason A Koehler" <Jason.Koehler at ipaper.com>
Subject: Why not??

I just wanted to see if anyone in the group had tried to make a lemon brew?
I have successfully made a couple of apple and cran apple ciders which have
turned out well. So I thought I would try something new. Before I waste my
time on a brew that turns out nasty I thought I would see if this has been
done before and if so what happened. As well as any pointers you may
have... Thanks in advance!!



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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 19:33:08 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: My recirculation, chilling, aeration and yeast pitching method

Brewers

I've been asked privately on on HBD to explain some more details 
about my method of chilling I mentioned the other day.

First, no, the yeast doesn't get filtered out.

Now on to details.

I use an immersion chiller in an eight gallon batch in a ten gallon 
boiler.  There is a pico-System slotted copper false bottom and a 
ball valve tap, and I use a magnetic impeller pump.

I immerse the chiller about five minutes or so before the end of the 
boil to sanitize it.  At the end of the boil (with whole hops), I 
typically will add finishing hops, turn off the flame, and allow the 
hops to settle for three or four minutes.  Then I turn on the water 
(cold well water - 48F in the winter, 53F in the hottest part of the 
summer).  You can watch the dial on the thermometer wind down really 
fast.

In less than a minute it's down to 190 or so, when I turn on the pump 
to recirculate (I've opened the tap earlier to fill the chamber with 
boiling wort - again to sanitize it).  I return the wort to the top 
of the kettle to minimize stratification.  It probably takes about 
ten minutes to get below 80F, at which point I begin to splash the 
wort to aerate and loosen the hose fitting from the outlet tap to 
suck in a stream of bubbles.  These are beaten into tiny bubbles by 
the pump impeller, which I figure maximizes O2 dissolving.  I 
continue until I get to the temperature I want to ferment at, 65-68F 
for ales and 48-50F for lagers.  Those last 15 degrees to 48-50F take 
some time for lagers.

All of this pretty much filters out the hot break and perhaps some of 
the cold break, but not all of it, I am sure, as I have hazy wort 
after it chills (it was virtually clear at boiling temperature.  The 
hop bed acts as a filter.

Now here's the part that seems to get the questions - I pitch the 
well suspended yeast right in the chilled wort in the boiler as I 
continue recirculating and aerating.  With both ales and lagers I 
pitch at around 70F, but I reach fermentation temperature within 
minutes for ales and tens of minutes for lagers, so they aren't warm 
for long.

I saw Dan McConnell do this some years ago when we brewed together 
(although he only splashed to get aeration - cracking the hose 
fitting is my idea).  I asked him if we weren't going to filter out 
the yeast on the hops bed and he assured me we wouldn't.  And we 
didn't, and I don't.  Evidently it's too small to be filtered out.

If I have time, I will continue this recirculation with aeration for 
up to an hour while I clean up and do whatever.  During this time, I 
occasinally have to play the stream of wort across the meringue that 
has built up to knock it down.  Then I continue to draw in the stream 
of bubbles while I pump the wort into the fermenter.

I believe that AJ DeLange reported that in wort pitched with normal 
pitching levels of yeast, he saw (using a dissolved oxygen meter and 
an airstone with pure O2)) the DO levels go from saturation to zero 
in twelve minutes.  Those yeast are hungry for oxygen!

I figure that I must be getting one or two generations of yeast 
budding during this happy hour, and they probably have really healthy 
cell membranes full of ergosterols or unsaturated fatty acids or just 
exactly what it is that Alan Meeker was telling us about at MCAB, so 
they are in a position to reproduce another six times or so after I 
turn off the bubbling.

Now I don't get terribly short lag times with this method, but that 
isn't necessarily bad.  I think the yeast is busy reproducing for a 
while before they get down to fermentation and producing kraeusen.

BTW, while I try to pitch large amounts of yeast, I have had good 
luck pitching a only fresh tube of White Labs yeast into eight 
gallons of wort and have had healthy ferments.  That is actually 
somewhat below ideal pitching levels.

The yeast from the bottom of the primary is virtually pure and clear of trub.

If I've left anything unclear, let me know and I'll try to further explain.

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 20:44:33 -0400
From: "Michael R. Brzezowski" <mrb at dedham.k12.me.us>
Subject: Pinkus Munster Alt Clone wanted

I have found my new favorite beer.  It is the Pinkus Munster Alt.  I am
hoping to find an extract/extract-grain recipe to clone this beer as close
as I can.  I don't know much about the Alt's so I really don't know if it is
close to the original German style, or what.

Can anyone help?  This is going to be my last batch for a long time, so I am
hoping to make it a great one (I am moving to St. Kitts in August so my wife
can go to Ross University Vet school.  It will be too hot to brew without a
fridge and we are going to be too poor for a second fridge).

Thanks...Mike



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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 19:59:28 -0500
From: "Steven Ford" <spare at kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: AHA Board

Responding to  Pete Calinski's post of Monday April 29  -- while I have only
posted to the digest once or twice, I do read the HTML version on a regular
basis as a way to keep abreast of issues particular to this forum and the
homebrewing community.
    The candidates statements are available on-line at
http://beertown.org/AHA/ballot.htm .  I hope you take the time to visit the
site and vote
Thanks,
Steve Ford
Overland Park, KS



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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 22:58:17 -0400
From: "David Craft" <chsyhkr at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Imperial Stout

Greetings,

I am formulating a recipe for Imperial Stout using Promash.  The recipe is
mostly extract, with a good bit of that being Dark DME. The guiedlines call
for an SRM of 20-40.  In researching other recipes they all seem to come in
at 50+ for color.  Any thoughts on this?  I am thinking that at this dark
color you would not notice the difference between a 40 and 60
anyway...........

Regards,

David B. Craft
Battleground Brewers Homebrew Club
Crow Hill Brewery and Meadery
Greensboro, NC



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