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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  HSA or MBO (Paul Mahoney)
  Re: mash/boil oxidation (Joel Plutchak)
  Re: faucet integrity (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Trub as Fertilizer? (Steve C Cobble)
  re: Lemon beer (John Schnupp)
  Re: Pinkus Munster Alt Clone (Rick)
  Big Brew/Virtual BrewTM (Richard Foote)
  RE: roggenbier ("Dennis Lewis")
  Lemon beer (Roger & Roxy Whyman)
  Re: (gak) respect ("Larry Bristol")


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Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 05:41:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Mahoney <pmmaho at yahoo.com>
Subject: HSA or MBO

Brewers:
   Thanks to S. Alexander, et al for their informative
posts on this topic.  In particular the practical
suggestions for avoiding this problem.
   In previous HBDs there was a discussion about using
campden tablets in your brewing water to remove or
minimize chloramines.   It appears that many municipal
water systems are using this substance in their water,
and this poses some problems for our brewing.
   I have been crushing .5 to 1 campden tablet and
adding it to my brewing water (8 gallons) the night
before a brew session.  I do not know how many grams
this is (the tablet is approx. the size of an adult
aspirin), but it appears that this may be excessive,
based upon the posted comments.  But I do not detect
any sulfite "bite".  Perhaps a vigorous boil
eliminates this problem.  So I guess I have been
unknowingly reducing this problem!  Woo-Hoo!  
   I also appreciate the other practical suggestions. 
I do not want to re-open old debates, but I have been
partially covering my boils for years.  When I remove
the lid I take care that the condensation on the
inside of the lid does not fall back into the boil pot
(DMS worries).
   The discussion about the indicators of oxidation
was most helpful.  I was stuck in the "sherry,
cardboard taste" phase.  The other indicators forced
me to re-evaluate my flavor assessments.  For example,
I had associated the increasing threshold of caramel
tastes with an excessive use of crystal or Vienna
malts, not with oxidation.
   Thanks for the informative and helpful postings.

Paul Mahoney
Roanoke, Va.
Star City Brewers Guild



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Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 08:31:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: mash/boil oxidation

"Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com> wrote:
> However, I really do not think it is merely the name (the condition
> formerly known as HSA) to which people object.  It is, rather, the
> relative severity of the problem that causes the disagreement.  MBO
> clearly impacts some more than others, and is apparently also a major
> cause of sleep disorders among homebrewers.  Some homebrewers see a
> problem they want to correct while others do not understand what all
> the fuss is about.

   A third category: people who understand what the fuss
is about but know from experience it's just not worth
fussing with.
 
> First, if you perceive that your beer shows objectionable signs of
> oxidation, then by all means you should take steps to correct that
> problem, as well as any insomnia that might result.

> Second, when one of the many people tells you that their beer does not
> show signs of oxidation, then congratulate them rather than insisting
> that this cannot be true.  ...maybe they just know something that
> you do not.

   Spot on.  Tilting at little windmills is great for those
who want to build Quixotic legends around themselves, but
I don't know that it does a lot of good for many others.

   Seems to me there's a nice way that already exists to
see how much effect HSA (sorry Brian, the new term hasn't
taken hold yet ;-) has on real life (home)brewing. One great
thing about George Fix was that he used his beers and an
existing blind evaluation process to gather data about them--
the sanctioned homebrew competition.  Take a look around at
the winners of homebrew competitions.  Find out who uses mash
and boil floats, CO2 blankets, campden tablets in the mash/boil,
etc. See if it correlates with good scores in competition.
I'll volunteer my data to the cause.

Joel Plutchak, [275.4, 238.2] Apparent Rennerian

Brewing scientifically-proven horribly oxidated yet
curiously tasty peer-reviewed beer in East-Central IL




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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:48:23 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: faucet integrity

"Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu> asks

>How bad of an idea is it to leave a plastic picnic faucet hooked up to a
>charged keg?  I've never had a leak, but I always try to remember to unhook
>when I am done dispensing (of course, I forget from time to time).  I have
>visions of finding 5 gallons of beer sloshing around the bottom of my beer
>fridge.  If this is not a realistic worry, then that would be great.

Good question, but not to worry.  I've never had one leak, nor have I 
ever heard of one leaking.

However, what has happened to me is a leak between the hose and the 
faucet.  I got lazy and didn't use a hose clamp on my solera ale a 
few years ago.  The friction fit was so tight I got away with it 
until the pressure from the continuing lactic fermentation in the keg 
got so high it started spewing inside the cellar beer closet.  My 
daughter was dog sitting while we were on vacation and for some 
reason checked the closet - probably to get a beer, and discovered 
it.  Much to her credit, she knew what to do.  She released pressure 
and removed the hose.  I am better at using hose clamps now.

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 12:19:32 -0400
From: Steve C Cobble <stevecobble at juno.com>
Subject: Re: Trub as Fertilizer?

Anyone with experience or suggestions relating to using trub or spent
grain,  as fertilizer in the garden? Would I kill my tomatoes or give
them a boost? Or should I let them break down with the rest of my grass
clippings/mulch/organic waste pile till next year....Justa thought
Steve Cobble
[650.2, 86.6] Apparent Rennerian


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Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 09:47:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Lemon beer

This little thread on lemon beer couldn't be better timed.  I just racked a 10
gallon batch and I have to honestly say this is the first bad, IMO, beer I've
brewed in several years.  I've been using the same basic recipe so I'm not
exactly sure what went wrong.  I've adding the zest and juice of one lemon to
each 5 gallon primary.  I also add the zest and juice of one lemon to the
secondary.

The batch I brewed last year had a "pithy" flavor to it.  Almost like I got too
deep when peeling the zest off of the lemon.  This year it is much worse.  This
year it also tastes very dry.  Kind of a pucker sensation.  Last year was the
first time I brewed this at my current location.  It might be the well water,
but I doubt it as I have successfully brewed other beers, even some that had a
similar recipe.  I have not changed my technique (at least not to my
knowledge).  I did change my false bottom to one of the curved ones from More
Beer but that should not have caused this.  Also I did get a little better
extraction than I anticipated.  I seem to get better extraction with 10 gallon
batches than I do with 5 gallons.

It is not undrinkable but it is not one of my best brews by far.  Most of the
posts I've seen have suggested adding the lemon at bottling time.  I think next
time I will try that and see how it works.

=====
John Schnupp, N3CNL
??? Hombrewery
[560.2, 68.6] Rennerian
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200, Bumblebee



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Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 11:25:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rick <ale_brewer at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pinkus Munster Alt Clone


>I don't know much about the Alt's so I really don't
>know if it isclose to the original German style, or
>what.

Mike,

Sorry I don't have a clone recipe, but Pinkus' version
is to style, however it is much different from the
Duesseldorf style Alts that predominate the Alt
category.  Really any beer brewed with German Alt
yeast, fermented warm and undergoing a lagering
process can be called an Alt.  The Duesseldorf style
is much darker (copper to brown) and has more
bitterness (40-60 ibu).  

If you really want to brew a Pinkus clone, make sure
you find a recipe for that beer.  Regular Alt recipes
will give you a much different beer.

Rick Seibt
Mentor, OH




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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 15:00:04 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Big Brew/Virtual BrewTM

Brewers,

Fell free to join us at http://members.prestige.net/dbeergut/video.html for
our annual Virtual BrewTM live coverage of Big Brew 2002!  That's right.
Coming to you live and in living (well mostly) color from the back deck of
the dbeergut Brewery!  Just one of the many fine home breweries of the
Chicken City Ale Raisers Home Brewers' Club of NE Georgia.  

This year's features:

	-Ceremonial toast to start the festivities
	-Live video and chat
	-A special performance by "HSA and the Agitators"
	-Special cameo appearances by Jennifer Connelly, Jennifer Love 	 	 Hewitt,
Jennifer Anniston and Jenny the Wonder Mule

Okay, maybe I got carried away there toward the end.  See you at Big Brew.


Rick Foote
Murrayville, GA






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Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 15:06:22 -0400
From: "Dennis Lewis" <DBLewis at LewisDevelopment.com>
Subject: RE: roggenbier

Hi all. Rob Dewhirst reminded me that I never followed up with my 
story of the roggenbier (like Bavarian weissbier, except rye malt
in place of the wheat malt) from last summer/fall. So here it is,
and after you read it, I'm sure you'll understand why I've tried
to forget it....

> I was researching this style in the HBD archives and saw your messages.
> 
> Did you ever make this? I couldn't find a followup report.
> 
> rob

I posted something a few days later, but basically it was a huge
brewday from hell. My idea was to make a 'weissbier' but use rye malt
instead. Following Michael Jackson's reports, I made a 60% rye, 20%
pils, 20% light crystal mash. Don't recall if I tried to decoct or 
not....probably should have. At the very least, I did a full temp mash.

The mash was very oily feeling. If you got a few drops on your hands
it felt extremely slippery, not just sticky. The runoff never really
cleared, nor did it ever stop passing chunks thru the lauter tun 
even with a pound of rice hulls in a 5 gallon batch!

I have a pump for recirculating and I recirced for almost an hour.
I got terrible extraction out of the process too, like 27 ppg vs my 
usual 32+ for a decocted weissbier, which I attributed partly to a 
poor crush on the rye because it is quite a bit smaller than wheat malt.
So, the boil goes ok, then I drop in my immersion chiller and chill 
to 70F. My finish volume seems sort of high, but my notes were sketchy. 

I checked the SG at the end of the boil and it was around 10.5P instead
of the 13.5P that it should have been. Turns out the my immersion 
chiller had a pin-hole leak that added about a gallon to the final
volume. Drat! So, I pitched the yeast and fermented anyway. I wasn't 
about to boil again--it had already been a 10 hour day.

It tastes ok--not very interesting because it tastes watered down.
The rye does add a spicy character, but the phenolics from the yeast
really compete with it. There's no obvious sign of infection from 
the additional water, but how do you tell when you have a weissbier 
yeast anyway.... The beer is a very interesting orangey-pink color 
with a pinkish tan head. Much different that anything I've ever seen.

My recommendations for future attempts:

1. Reread this post and make a different beer ;-)
2. Decoct at this mash at least twice to help clear the lauter faster
3. Shoot for at least a 13.5P brew (like 1.057) to help the malt
   flavors compete with the yeast.
4. Crush the rye separately from the other grains, resetting the
   gap on my JSP mill to much, much narrower.

Would I do it again? Probably not. So I'll use the extra rye that I 
have laying around to spice up pale ales and bitters.

Dennis Lewis
"When I read about the evils of drinking,
I gave up reading." --Henny Youngman 
[175.3mi, 113.3] Apparent Rennerian (aka Warren, Ohio)



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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 13:42:57 -0600
From: Roger & Roxy Whyman <rwhyman at mho.com>
Subject: Lemon beer

A few years ago, I made a couple of wheat beers and added lemon grass. 
One, I added 5 oz. in the last 5 min. of the boil in a 15 gal batch. In 
the other, I "dry hopped"  1.7 oz in a 5 gal  keg. I think I liked the 
dry hopped version the best, but that was a few years ago and my memory 
is starting to slip. Anyway, get the lemon grass from a natural food 
market, cut off the stem and throw away, chop the bulb into small pieces 
and your set. I actually place 3rd in a local contest with one of them.
Good luck,
Roger Whyman
Parker,CO




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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 19:22:20 -0500
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: (gak) respect

On Thu, 2 May 2002 00:13:54 -0400, Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
wrote:

>Now, I'm seriously considering taking leave of this group. When someone like
>Larry Bristol can come in here and start spewing phrases like "spirit of
>mutual respect" and things of that sort, I can only feel that this forum is
>on the slippery slope to civility, and that's a thought that chills me to
>the bone. If I want that sort of thing, I'll hang out in the CraftBrewing
>Digest, where those obnoxiously polite and pleasant Australians hold court.
>Please people, remember... We're beer drinkers. As such, a certain level of
>crass rudeness is expected of us by society as a whole. 

Jeez, Brian!  I call myself a cunning linguist right here in front of
God and the whole collective, and you worry about the digest not having
a certain level of rash crudeness?  [Wasn't that what you said? 
Sometimes I mix up parts of words, you know.  Doc says I'm lesdixic.]  
And anyway, my tongue was no where near my cheek at the time!  [Do you
think maybe I have gone about as far as I should go with this one?]

Please don't leave us!  Every group needs one person (and only one, but
thanks to all the others who are volunteering about now) who can tell
anyone that they are full of s**t and make them laugh about it!  I
nominate you!

And another thing.  My wife is mad at me because of the telephone
message I took for her today.  "Someone from the Guyana College called.
 They said to tell you your Pabst Beer was normal."  What the hell is
her problem?







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