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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  herms temp (The Freemans)
  NHBD (susan woodall)
  was HSA... ("Steve Alexander")
  HSA and Bud ("Peter Garofalo")
  Effect of sunlight on boiling wort (Brian Debeaudine)
  Grain mill gap and false bottom (Lonnie & Kelly McLaughlin)
  homebrew competitions (Aleconner)
  Min. Brewery size? (Al Klein)
  oxydation reality check (Al Klein)
  Composted wasted grains ("John Gubbins")
  LOCAL POST: where's the good beer in  NYC? ("Tim Fields")
  Brief Micro-brew Report From Puerto Rico (leavitdg)
  Cold Sparging and Other Tales From the Abyss ("Dr. Pivo")
  Re: Min. Brewery size? ("Larry Bristol")
  Space Beer ("Partner")


*
* 10th annual Spirit of Free Beer entry deadline is 5/11/02
* Details at http://www.burp.org/events/sofb/2002/
*
* 2002 Bay Area Brew Off entry deadline is 5/20/2002
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*
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* http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping
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* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
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Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 08:54:08 -0500
From: The Freemans <potsus at Bellsouth.net>
Subject: herms temp

I have the same set up using a counterflow chiller from PBS as a heat
exchanger rather than a copper tube coil in the HLT.  I have found the
optimum temp for the HLT is 160 degrees.  That heat exchanger temp is
high enough to preclude overheating the wort and still give a reasonable
heat rise.

The mash tun temp is measured at 2 points - one under the false bottom
and the other about 1/2 way down the tun.  The average is used to
determine overall mash temp.  A mash mixer keeps the temp reasonably
uniform.

I raise the temp to 170 for mash out and then to 200 before pumping the
finished wort up to the boiler.  This final heating is useful in
reducing the time it takes for the wort to come to a boil.

Bill Freeman aka Elderrat
K P Brewery - home of "the perfesser"
Birmingham, AL



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Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 09:01:39 -0700
From: susan woodall <woodsusa at moscow.com>
Subject: NHBD

What day is National Homebrew Day?  I know it is this month but can't
recall the day.



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Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 05:04:48 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: was HSA...

I did not mean to offend Alistair X or Larry Bristol - but we are discussing
matters of fact, not opinion  My suggestion re a trip to a library was quite
serious, not a snide remark.  Even a cursory search of HBD ....

Alistair's argues ...
>If I am ignorant of the effects of oxidation, then so are all
>the certified, national and grand master BJCP judges

Likely since much was published since 1998.

>who mistakenly think
>my beer is any good [...]

Beer judgings are not a measure of HSA damage in isolation, and all
conventional HB have substantial HSA, so judging is a comparison of beers
with HSA.  Maybe an additional 15 minute boil adds as much oxygen as the
"HSA salute".  That HSA implies damage cannot be disproven by comparing
uncontrolled samples.

The darker color and coarser flavors universally attributed to HSA in
commercial brewing are seldom recognized  with HB - perhaps because all HB
samples have this problem.

>[...] ignoring the potential effects of HAS has no perceivable
>impact on the beer's quality, even after several months.

All beers age and change over the months and many of these changes have been
tentatively be related to HSA.  If you are looking for some blatant fault
arising from modest additional HSA then you will never see it.  It's looking
for the wrong thing and there is no "Low HSA" control for comparison.

> (mostly from commercial
>sources from those papers you reference).

Academic sources -  U.Birmingham(UK), UC Davis, Catholique Univ of Louvrain.

>[...] the treatment of hot mash and wort would
>appear [...] to have little
>impact on the rate at which it stales.

How did you measure the rate of staling and what did you use as a 'control'
?  To justify such a statement would require a difficult and lengthy
experiment - not just opinions pulled from air.

=================
Larry Bristol writes ...

>It is, rather, the
> relative severity of the problem that causes the disagreement.

I don't think there is much disagreement.  HSA damage will seldom force you
to dump a beer, and even when the eventual damage is severe it is often not
detectable as damage for a few months.   This doesn't mean that damage is a
myth or uncommon.    I think that if we produced otherwise identical beers
w/ and w/o HSA exposure that the differences would be immediately evident.
That isn't the same as saying that HSA beers will show as having severe
defects capable of being detected in isolation or when compared to other HSA
beers.

> First, if you perceive that your beer shows objectionable signs of
> oxidation, then by all means you should take steps to correct that
> problem, as well as any insomnia that might result.

Of course - but just avoiding major faults is not a recipe for great beer
or a great anything.

> Second, when one of the many people tells you that their beer does not
> show signs of oxidation, then congratulate them rather than insisting
> that this cannot be true.  ...maybe they just know something that
> you do not.

In matters of fact the opinion polls of "many people" don't count at all
Larry.  Accelerated aging, triangle test ... if differences are not
detectable then you've a beer free of many of the late changes expected from
HSA.  If HSA-type changes do appear then it's a wake-up call that lack of
controls and the long time periods have misled your opinion. I have little
doubt about the outcome.

========================
Brian Schar remarks ...

>Merely boiling the wort causes 2/3 of the HSA, if I read this correctly.
>This seems to far overshadow the other causes of aeration

Yes, but ....  this is based on results from a single study and note that
the boil might be 2/3rds of the HSA time period.

>How should a brewer deliver sulfite [...]
>without causing an off-flavor [...]

Sodium and potassium metabisufite do not seem to cause any
problem at rates around 1.5gm/5gal batch.

=======================



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Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 12:09:09 -0400
From: "Peter Garofalo" <pgarofa1 at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: HSA and Bud

I have really enjoyed the banter about the existence and importance of HSA
in the recent week or so. Most of it has been informative, with a few
personal zingers thrown in. Well, that's the HBD for ya...

I do have a tidbit to add to the fray, hopefully without stepping full bore
into the steaming pile of controversy. A few posters have referenced the
practice of Anheuser-Busch of passing a stream of air through their hot
wort. I actually saw this taking place on a tour of the pilot brewery in St.
Louis at the MCAB a few years ago. The tour guide we had was only a few
months out of college, and most of us knew more about brewing than she did.
Another group did question their more experienced guide, and he responded
that A-B considered DMS a fatal flaw (sort of like some folks with
diacetyl...). They went to great lengths to strip it from the hot wort, and
yes, they do use air (not ntrogen--too expensive).

My guess as to how they get away with this little trick is this: the stream
of hot wort moves from the air column directly to a counterflow chiller.
While the oxidation reactions may be rapid, they are not instantaneous. So,
the wort has very little time to react before it is chilled and pitched with
yeast, which should suck up the oxygen rapidly. Mystery solved, at least to
my way of thinking...

Cheers,

Peter Garofalo
Syracuse, NY
(currently nowhere near Jeff Renner)



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Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 11:21:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Debeaudine <patlaw_guy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Effect of sunlight on boiling wort

I have recently bought a propane cooker and a big
kettle to move my brewing outside and step up to 10
gallon batches.  The impetus was an all-electric
kitchen in my new place.  Why all-electric, I'll never
know, given that we have gas heat.

I set up my equipment for a dry run, and noticed
sunlight striking the portion of my backyard I'll be
brewing at.  It's a bricked-over patio, perfect for
brewing.  I know that sunlight will skunk bottled
beer.  I have a feeling that it will skunk wort as
well, but I don't know that for a fact.  Any advice
from other outdoor brewers?  Should I try to shade my
kettle?  Thanks!

Brian



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Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 14:20:50 -0400
From: Lonnie & Kelly McLaughlin <lonkelm at 12dollaraccess.com>
Subject: Grain mill gap and false bottom

Hello,

I have been having troubles with my RIMs system.  I either get stuck flow 
or I get grain into the pipes and
get clogged pipes.  Either way I loose recirculation and create a big mess 
fixing the clog.

I recently purchased a false bottom from SABACO thinking this false bottom 
would be a good seal in my keg and minimize the amount of grain going 
through the system.

Well, I just did a batch and I have a ton of grain going through the system 
so I now wonder if my mill is too small or something and I'm over crushing 
my grain and this is why it goes through the screen.

I have a non adjustable Jack Schmidling mill and the gap appears to be 
approx .054"

Please send any advice you can offer.

Lonzo



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Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 16:22:07 EDT
From: Aleconner at aol.com
Subject: homebrew competitions

To those among the collective who send their homebrew in to competitions, 
please indulge me with your responses to the following questions:

Why do you compete? (place responses in order of importance)
1 For the glory of having your brew recognized for excellence, 2 In the hopes 
of winning big, expensive prizes, 3 For the valuable evaluation feedback from 
the judges

In general, are you satisfied with judges' scores and feedback?

Typical homebrew competition fees currently run in the $5 to $8 per entry 
range (NHC is always higher); how much is too much when it comes to homebrew 
competition entry fees?

Direct e-mail responses are welcomed, although this subject matter may prove 
worthy of discussion in this forum.

Thanks in advance,
Marty Nachel
Aleconner at aol.com 
       



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Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 16:42:15 -0400
From: Al Klein <rukbat at optonline.net>
Subject: Min. Brewery size?

Ted Major said:

>Judging by the size of our current kitchen, I'm thinking 
>that a 10 ft x 10 ft room might work. 

If the architecture can accommodate it, I'd think of a tile floor with
a drain.
- ---
[Apparent Rennerian 567.7, 95.9] 
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net


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Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 16:51:20 -0400
From: Al Klein <rukbat at optonline.net>
Subject: oxydation reality check

Dr. Pivo says:

>A brewery called Anheuser Busch makes a beer they call  "Budweiser".

>It is sold pretty much all over the world.

>I've tasted it in St. Louis (where it originates) I've tasted the
>lisenced product by Guinness in Ireland.  I've tasted it hawked at such
>bizarre places as Casa Blanca (or bazaar places, if you will).

> ......and it always tastes the same.

Budweiser has a taste?  I've never noticed one.  Maybe that's the
secret - HSA ruins the TASTE of the beer.  So if it has no taste, HSA
can't do anything bad to it.  Maybe it even adds some (no, they'd
never do it to real Budweiser) /taste/ of its own?
- ---
[Apparent Rennerian 567.7, 95.9] 
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net


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Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 17:10:42 -0600
From: "John Gubbins" <n0vse at idcomm.com>
Subject: Composted wasted grains

I usually compost the stuff.  I have a place in the back yard where I
dump it.  By the end of winter there is a pretty good mound.  I break
it open and take the composted stuff and till it in the garden.  That
seems to work pretty well.

I've also tried dumping the spent grains on the garden bed as I brew
through the winter and then tilling it in.  The problem with this
approach is slugs.  Gazillions of them.  I've read that fresh spent
grains are too "hot" for young plants so you want to compost this
stuff.  That means the nitrogen components are too concentrated.

The shell left over after the compost heap is broached may be used to
compost next year's compost.

Hops go in there, too.

Hope this helps,

John Gubbins Littleton, Co.



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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 4/19/2002




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Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 19:45:51 -0400
From: "Tim Fields" <tfields at cox.rr.com>
Subject: LOCAL POST: where's the good beer in  NYC?

All,

I just spent a week in New York City (new company training).. NYC is a GREAT
town, but I've about had my fill of standard, run-of-the-mill beers.  I miss
my hops! I get to go back tomorrow (5/5) for week 2...... Can anyone
recommend a few establishments that serve and/or brew good beer?  I will be
located close to Penn Station, but am willing to take a pretty fair cab ride
for some good brew.

 - Tim Fields
   Fairfax, VA
   tfields at cox.rr.com



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Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 07:05:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Brief Micro-brew Report From Puerto Rico

Attending a conference in Puerto Rico...and I can happily report that the
"Borinquen Grill and Brewing Company", the only brew-pub on the island, is
still here.  I have only tried the "Diablo" and the Amber, and can say that
while I have had better...stateside....here they are a wonderful break from
the local "Medalla".

The pub is in "Isla Verde", just to the west of the Munoz Airport (San Juan).

Happy Brewing!
 .Darrell


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Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 13:17:40 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: Cold Sparging and Other Tales From the Abyss

Some may have noticed, and many perhaps to their great relief, that I
have been rather silent for a while.

I've had a bit to do.

Take the other day.

Someone had parked one of those big Mercedes transporter buses in a
place that just a few weeks ago seemed reasonable.  Then the thaw
finally came and where that beast once stood on solid ground, it has now
sunk down to the front axle.   Les'  see.  Strap around the maple tree,
winch, all the chain I can find and....hmmmm.......not quite long
enough.  That big old thick nylon rope should fill in the gap.  Crank,
crank, crank, THWAP!!   ....er... guess that nylon rope could of been a
bit thicker.

I guess that leaves the tractor.  Wonder if it feels like starting
today... Grrn, Grrn, Grrn, BRAKATOW! Yes!  Now just to lift the plow ...
nm, nm, nm. Aw buggery. The hydraulics have leaked, I know I got no more
fluid at home, and I'll never get this thing out of here with the plow
blade down.

Oh well, there's two wagon loads of timber that need to be cut, split,
and stacked.  Does it have to start raining now?  Stop protesting you
sorry excuse for a lumbar region, I should get this done and covered,
and HOLY MOLEY! Today is the deadline for that abstract submission, best
get down to the "yeast house" and crank up the computer.

In short, I was having "one of those days".

Did I forget to mention that I was brewing 130 litres of beer at the
same time?

And this in a non finished newly constructed brew house, that lacks all
kinds of things, and has been frozen solid for the last half year.

Ah well, I can take solace in the fact that I've got another person in
the village brewing now.   Did a fine job of converting his old milk
room, into a brewing room... never was that fond of milk cows any
how.... they make you get up in the morning.  Course that means that
before they are really flying on their own, I'll have to go hunt down a
few borrowed odds and ends (such as thermometers, hydrometers) at their
place.

And all of this meandering between different tasks, and using some very
incomplete equipment, brings us to the point of how yet another great
brewing error, may have opened my eyes to "the process".

I should first explain how I sparge.  I call it "dilution" sparging, or
"infusion sparging".  I had some early disappointments with stuck
sparges, and never really enjoyed that part of the process so went over
to my present method about 20 years ago, and haven't done a "fly sparge"
since.  If your mash tunne is big enough, at the end of mashing, you
simply add hot water, until the resulting mix is at sparge temperatures,
or add cold water and heat it up to those temps.. Stir it, recirculate a
bit, then just let it run.

It's really a "no- brainer" and probably why it appeals so much to me.
I don't have to watch it.  I just come back when I feel like, or have
time for.  I then usually do a quick "after sparge " to rip out a bit of
the sugars past the point they were diluted to in the grains.

Now, at this point, I had not rigged any sort of "hot liquor tank" and
had nothing to after sparge with.  A little grain wastage would not
ordinarily bother me, but I am planning to pull off a few of these in a
row, so I have the lagering facilities well and truly stocked before
summer arrives.  I know I'm about to dump the equivalence of 20-30
litres worth of stuff still in the grains, and as I mentally count
through my lagering capacity,  I decide I don't want to do that.

Now this mash and lautering tunne is powered by a 6 kW element.  Once
upon a time, a phase shorted out on  this just as I'd poured cold water
in and was going to heat up to sparge temps.   I really had no recourse
but to pull all the goods off at that temp, and then jerk the element,
do repairs, and then boil.

It always bothered me that I had no grossly bad extract that time even
though it was pulled off at not only sub- sparge temperatures, but
sub-mash ones.

What if I do an after sparge with cold water?

So I did.  Just connected a sprayer to a hose and sprayed this (approx.
5-7 C) cold water into the grain bed until it started getting "floaty",
and then went back to other chores.

I did this 4 times and it's still coming out at 1022!   Hey that's not
at all too far off the kind of extraction rate I expect when I'm using
the "right" sparge temperatures!

What's going on here?

Am I extracting something else?  Taste the wort.... yeh that's what it
tastes like about here.  Taste the grain bed..... no residual sweetness
here.  pH? middle 5's.

Hey, WAIT JUST ONE MINUTE.   We ALL know that we have to reach a
temperature that gives us an optimal dissolution of sugars or they will
just stay in the grains (let's please leave the starch extraction by
gelatinization, "mashing out" and other such ideas well away for the
moment and just talk about "extract").  I've talked to lots of brewers
and they all have they're own ideas on this: "77C! you have to reach
77!" or: "Not over 75! absolutely not over 75"

Could it turn out that this is just a bunch of hooey?

Could it be that I have once again been religiously.... nay "slavishly"
doing practices that entail a whole bunch of extra time, equipment, and
energy costs, for DECADES, that are only marginally improving my extract
efficiency, and nothing else?

I dun'no.

I do know I've "cold sparged" the next brew as well.

If anyone else has any experience with this, or wants to try it and see
what turns up..... I'd sure like to hear about it.

Dr. Pivo

P.S.  I can feel the great inertia of HBD staring to crank up that big
wheel of old, familiar, and worn out topics, and a new generation of
submitters who may just encourage the vanguard to start shouting: "HSA!
Pitching rates! No trub! Oxygenate! Geometry! Clinitest!
BOTULIIIIIIIIIIIISM!"  all over again..... so I thought I would submit
some "new" topics that I have either observed or 'spurmented with during
my time of silence.

They do get just so "cheesed" when my observations seem to state that
they are spouting irrelevance.... it might be safer to choose some
previously untouched  topics, where people don't have a previously
repeatedly printed opinion to defend.   (Now I want you all to say:
"Previously repeatedly printed opinion" fast three times... I don't know
if it is proper English, but it will put your tongue in a knot)





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Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 08:47:44 -0500
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: Min. Brewery size?

On Sat, 4 May 2002 00:13:54 -0400, "TED MAJOR" <tidmarsh at charter.net>
wrote:

>For those of you lucky enough to have a dedicated brewery, 
>how big is it? How big should it be? What is the smallest 
>usable brewery?

As [double] luck would have it, about a year ago, my wife and I
completed a move into a new home base.  This included a dedicated
brewery.  It is a separate structure (as opposed to a space contained
within the main house).  So it actually shares time between being a
brewery, a brew pub, and a center for outdoor entertainment (in Texan,
that translates into barbeque  house).  It could even be used as guest
cabin.

The building (known to us as "The Station") was designed to resemble a
railroad depot.  The enclosed part is 17x18; the platform is 15x32. 
This is much larger than the minimum size needed, but because of the
extra duty it performs, every square foot seems to be precious.  You
can take a virtual tour and even read about its construction history on
my web site.

http://www.doubleluck.com/places/station/index.html

I think the minimum size depends on what you put in it and how you plan
to use it.  There are several items that might impact the size you need
depending on how you choose to handle them.  To name a few, they are
cold water plumbing, hot water plumbing, sewage, venting of heat,
climate control, equipment storage, ingredient storage, space for
fermentation, space for conditioning, and space for serving your beer. 
(WHEW!)  Think about how you will use your brewery, and after arranging
a location for each of the items necessary, you have your smallest
usable brewery.

>I haven't decided whether to go natural gas or 220v 
>electric yet, 

Personally, I would provide for both.  Neither of these is a major
expense, especially if done during initial construction, but both can
be quite expensive if added on later.

Good luck!

Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX   AR=[1093.6,223.2]
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 12:35:59 -0500
From: "Partner" <Partner at Netdirect.net>
Subject: Space Beer

To the collective:

Needless to say, i am making a proposal for a future science study in the
weightlessness of space.  During the course of many sleepiness nights
dreading the accursed Mash/Boil Oxidation, (formerly known to any 3rd. grade
student as Hot Side Aeration).  I wish to formulate the next giant leap for
mankind:  Brewing on long duration missions.

It's an interesting idea.  Heat control is electric.  What is interesting to
me is yeast acclamation.  For 10,000 years, it;'s been done with gravity,
time to adjust for the next 500 years.

I believe we should forget about the mega-breweries taking hold on this
survey and consider that millions of homebrewer's have a better grasp of
ideas and i wish to submit a proposed future shuttle mission.

May i listen to the collective's thought's?

BTW, the collective sounds like  "The Borg"

Byron

uhmmmmmmmm, Beeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrr



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