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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE: Effect of sunlight on boiling wort ("Parker Dutro")
  re: HSA and Bud ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: Space Beer ("Steve Alexander")
  Bud's bad bubbles ("Bruce Garner")
  Re;  HSA and Bud ("Bill Frazier")
  RE: Competition Survey (Don Lake)
  HSA ("Dave Burley")
  Cold Sparging ("Dave Burley")
  Re: was HSA ("Larry Bristol")
  Final Reminder BUZZ OFF HB Competition ("Houseman, David L")
  RE:  homebrew competitions (Bill Tobler)
  Cold Sparging By Doc Pivo ("Phil Yates")
  Frustrated All Grain Newbie ("doug klon")
  Two-Hearted ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Re: Min Brewery Size ("the Ludwigs")
  Reminder: 2002 Bay Area Brew Off ("Bryan L. Gros")


*
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*
* 2002 Bay Area Brew Off entry deadline is 5/20/2002
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Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 22:13:57 -0700
From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: RE: Effect of sunlight on boiling wort

Brian Writes:
>I set up my equipment for a dry run, and noticed
sunlight striking the portion of my backyard I'll be
brewing at. (snip)
>I know that sunlight will skunk bottled
beer.  I have a feeling that it will skunk wort as
well, but I don't know that for a fact.

Sunlight will skunk wort because the exposed yeast cells are damaged by UV
rays.  Your boiling wort, however, will be just fine.  I try to keep
"thtings" from sailing into my kettle when I brew outside, though.
Especially near the end of the boil.  I pop the lid on about ten minutes
before the end.  Sounds like you've got yourself I jive little backyard
kitchen.  FUN!  Keep brewing.

Parker Dutro
Portland, Oregon



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Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 03:39:29 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: HSA and Bud

Peter Garofalo reminds ...

>practice of Anheuser-Busch of passing a stream of air through their hot
>wort.
>[...]
>My guess as to how they get away with this little trick is this: the stream
>of hot wort moves from the air column directly to a counterflow chiller.
>While the oxidation reactions may be rapid, they are not instantaneous.
>[....]

Also the temp must drop pretty fast in the column, reducing the reaction
rate ... but at the same time the availability of O2 is increased across the
huge surface area. so .... it's not entirely convincing.

Bud also has some unusual staling properties - the stuff is reportedly
immortal on the store shelf, but when I've gotten spritzed from an
incompetently opened can the stale aroma is extreme in a matter of
hours(cardbard and other aldehydes).  Overnight residues seem to obtain a
very stale aroma too.  I'm not sure what explains this but it's unlike most
other beers.

=======
Pivo says ....

>Hey, WAIT JUST ONE MINUTE.   We ALL know that we have to reach a
>temperature [...]
>Could it turn out that this is just a bunch of hooey?
[...]
>P.S.  I can feel the great inertia of HBD staring to crank up that big
>wheel of old, familiar, and worn out topics, and
>.... so I thought I would submit
>some "new" topics [...]

It seems  Pivo slept through the  no-mashout cold sparge topics in their
last go-round 'bout a year back ?  It's been covered before.   Specific
mashout temps and high lauter temps are not required for decent extraction.

> They do get just so "cheesed" when my observations seem to
>state that they are spouting irrelevance

It's not the observations Doc, it's the Pivo creed ... the old argument from
innuendo and ad hominem that if a big brewery does then it's bad bad
horribly bad, and if you read a research paper from a commercial source then
your beer is ruined.

A word on Pivo's earlier post ....

I'm sure that the Czech beers that were once made with open air cooling were
indeed quite good for a couple months if treated carefully.  Many English
ales have had similar treatment and have been local favorites for many
decades.  Unfortunately by the time they got shipped they are abysmally
stale aldehydic messes.  Had a Staropramen once that was not even clearly
recognizable as beer and several other Czech beers that made their way down
the sewer.  Some English beers - whew - all sorts of stale and infections to
boot.   Tho' this has improved a lot in recent years it's hardly a thing of
the past.

If your idea of beer is something that is only made and drunk locally and
quickly (and there is much to recommend this) - then by all means, oxidize
it too to prevent storage&shipping.   But don't bother to tell me about it
if it can only be tasted properly while swimming upstream in a Moravian
stream on the ides of March - it's just not relevant at that point.   One
town wonder beers might make an amusing anecdote, but what's the point ?
Schneider & Ayinger & Spaten products travel well and don't suffer any lack
flavor.  If Czech beers are now trending toward blandness maybe it's not
their newfound lack of oxidation but something else.

=====

I seeded 2700sf of barley yesterday & today - whew - hot work - hope the
crows don't get it all.   Just read that modern barley developed in Tibet.
If you wish to toast Tibet best hurry - before those crumbs who make your
tennis shoes complete it's obliteration.

 -S




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Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 04:11:35 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Space Beer

Pivo wrote ....
> P.S.  I can feel the great inertia of HBD staring to crank up that big
> wheel of old, familiar, and worn out topics, and a new generation of
> submitters who may just encourage the vanguard to start shouting: "HSA!
> Pitching rates! No trub! Oxygenate! Geometry! Clinitest!
> BOTULIIIIIIIIIIIISM!"  all over again.....

Very prescient Doc, but you forgot to mention (hence ward off) the old 'beer
in space' thread.

Partner(Byron) writes ...

> To the collective:
>
> Needless to say, i am making a proposal for a future science study in the
> weightlessness of space.

It's all in the archives Byron, you'll find it under 'beer in space' right
next to 'NOKOMAREE'.  Seriously - how to boil, collect, ferment in space was
all discussed.  As totally worthless topics go, beer in space is at least
better than pepper and pumpkin beers - but not by much.

>What is interesting to
> me is yeast acclamation.  For 10,000 years, it;'s been done with gravity,
> time to adjust for the next 500 years.

Yeast deserve a great deal of acclaim - with gravity or levity.

 -S





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Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 07:17:48 -0500
From: "Bruce Garner" <bpgarner at mailbag.com>
Subject: Bud's bad bubbles

Dr. Pivo writes:

Now, let's look at that in light of the fact that they PURPOSELY bubble
air through the column of hot wort!

Me:

It may be a distinction without a difference but what AB does is to
introduce the hot wort into an array of vertical tubes (like a steam
locomotive boiler turned on end) in such away that the wort clings to the
inside of the tubes as it spirals down. This is the way a vertical sewer
pipe quietly carries gray water.

As the wort spirals down the inside of the tubes hot air blasts up the
center and carries away the DMS. The whole things is over in a moment.

Bruce



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Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 04:18:17 -0500
From: "Bill Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re;  HSA and Bud

Peter Garofalo<pgarofa1 at twcny.rr.com>wrote "Anheuser-Busch of pass(es) a
stream of air through their hot wort. I actually saw this taking place on a
tour of the pilot brewery in St. Louis at the MCAB a few years ago.   My
guess as to how they get away with this little trick is this: the stream of
hot wort moves from the air column directly to a counterflow chiller."

Peter...Does A-B take steps to remove cold break after wort leaves the
counterflow chiller and prior to pitching yeast?

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas




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Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 10:28:42 -0400
From: Don Lake <dlake at amuni.com>
Subject: RE: Competition Survey

Marty Nachel asked:

Why do you compete?
I mainly do it for the glory, somewhat for the feedback.  Oh yeah, and
also for the groupies

In general, are you satisfied with judges' scores and feedback?
Overall I am satisfied.  I hate those judges who can't express
themselves in the English language.  I once received an two-word
response on a section of a score sheet that said, "needs malt."  This
neanderthal was no help to me.  I'm not complaining about the score - it
seemed to be accurate and consistent.   For Christ's sake, some of these
judges should enroll in a composition class at his local community
college.  In general beer judges should take a lesson from the wine
people and work on being more expressive with the written word.

How much is too much in entry fees?
I hate writing a check for the entry fees as much as anyone.  But
compared to other hobbies, homebrewing is damn cheap (ie boating, golf
etc).

My biggest gripe with homebrew competitions is how long most of them
take to send back your scoresheets.  I just received some back the other
day from a major competition that was held 5 weeks ago....five weeks!  I
won't mention the name but it rhymes with "Glue Sonnet".  Unfortunately
that seems to be the rule more than the exception.  There is no excuse
for hanging on the the score sheets for that long.  We need a new
standard here.

Don Lake




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Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 11:07:39 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: HSA

Brewsters:

Well it's good to see not too much has changed that I can't follow the
conversations. I have been scanning HBD sorta  regularly but not always had
the energy to jump in.

As some of you know I bin sick and not too energetic, but getting better. We
finally understand the origin of the fevers ( sometimes as high as 104.8F)
and some of the other strange things going on in this body. Turns out the
Arthritis medicine Enbrel in combination with Gold I was given for my
Rheumatoid Arthritis gave me an even worse disease by screwing up my white
blood cell and neutrophil production ( goes to zero two out of three weeks).
Called Cyclic Neutropenia. I'm  going to WA, Seattle where the world expert
resides to see if we can fix this without screwing up anything else.

If you have Rheumatoid Arthritis or know someone who does check out the fact
that both Enbrel and Remicade ( two new blockbuster drugs) can cause severe
infections ( I almost kicked the bucket last Summer) and Tuberculosis and
have resulted in deaths. Vote is still out on cancer ( as these drugs attack
the Tumor Necrosis Factor in the white cell).  Ask your doctor. No one told
me.

Anyway, enough about me and warning you.

Here is a rehash of a subject I have often commented on, ( and someone even
remembered it!)  but there may be a new reader or two.

HSA - I agree a dumb term - maybe MBO or whatever is better but the fact
that oxygen incorporation into beer/mash/wort is bad, especially while it is
hot, and should be avoided. I still get chills about incorporation of oxygen
into cold wort in the absence of yeast ( and wonder about its efficacy) ,
but that is a different subject.

I discovered the bad effect of hot oxidation many years ago ( early 70s) and
it represented the most major positive change in my ability to produce good
beer of any single event in my home brewing career. In homebrewing, the
surface to volume ratio is MUCH higher than in professional brewing. This
provides a much better chance of oxidation, so we must be careful in
different places in the process than they are.  But even the professionals -
esp brew pubs and microbreweries - are appreciating the fact that better
beer is available to the careful brewer who avoids hot oxidation.

Remember in those early 70s not much was around on homebrewing literature,
so I used my knowledge of cooking and winemaking and my taster to detect a
problem with all of my beers.  I found out that I should avoid pouring hot
wort through the air to filter out the hops ( as I had been doing) and I
added metabisulfite as a result of my winemaking experience to knock out the
oxidized taste I had detected in my beer.  The results were remarkable and
probably why I am still brewing after all these years. My beer became really
good with no off tastes and a lighter color.  The next step - going all
grain on my own -  was the finishing touch, but not nearly as important as
avoiding hot oxidation..

Adding metabisulfite to beer is not new and the Brits even have a law of
many decades ( maybe 6 or 7 decades) against adding it to beer.  The pH of
beer is not the same as wine and little of the free sulfite ( anti-oxidant )
is available above pH = 3.3.  Sulfites will complex with carboxyl groups
which occur in aldehydes and ketones ( generated as a result of oxidation
due to sloppy handling)  and may explain the effect of improved flavor in
those beers which have been hot oxidised.

I stopped adding meta some decades ago when I discovered that there was
really no need if I took some simple precautions in handling the mash and
hot wort.

I always move the mash to the lauter tun with a large pot/scoop and avoid
splashing, I always move the hot wort out of the boiler with a siphon
directly through my chiller. Whenever I have to move wort out of the lauter
tun to the boiler, I use  a hose and submerge the exit point under the
existing wort.

And as pointed out the other day by another contributor, I always boil with
the boiler partially covered ( maybe 6/7ths covered)  using the steam
generated by the boil as a steam jet to prevent oxygen from entering the
boiler. As a another contributor pointed out it is a good idea to insulate
the lid ( I use a towel) to speed up the boiloff and more importantly
generate the rolling boil which is needed for efficient hop extraction. Put
the lid on after the first boilup and protein precipitation is finished or
you will have  a mess. I usually have the lid on at the beginning of the
heatup, move the lid off during the first boilup and then replace it. BUT
you gotta be careful if you do it this way.

There are always lots of nay-saying comments about oxygen solubility and
such at the higher temperatures of the boil but it has little relevance as
any oxygen quickly gets reacted at the wort surface in the boiler.

To explain this, I use an analogy which means something to cooks.  The next
time you make spaghetti sauce cook it with the lid off and look to see where
the darkening is. Always at the upper surface. This is due to oxidation.
Same thing happens in your boiler to darken your wort and oxidize
componentsproducing off tastes, but the low viscosity of the wort doesn't
let you observe where the reaction takes place, especially at a rolling
boil.

As far as DMS and that creamed corn taste goes, boiling with the lid on or
off doesn't make any difference as DMS boils at a temperature which is much
lower than water's boiling point.  What doesn't evaporate, you basically
steam distill it off. Insulating the lid helps.  Leaving the lid on after
the boil and not cooling quickly will cause DMS to build up.Ala those of you
who cool in a sink of cold water.  If DMS is your problem, set up a chiller
to chill 5 gallons in less than ten minutes and your DMS problems will go
away.

As much as I would love to, I can't promise I will be a regular until I get
this other stuff straightened out and I get my vineyard sorted out for the
summer and last years' wine bottled. Fermentation is a great hobby or is it
a way of life?!

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 11:14:35 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Cold Sparging

Brewsters:

Dr. Pivo's observation that it's OK to use cold sparging water towards the

At the beginning of the sparge, when the sugar content of the wort is high,
having a high temperature is most likely necessary for perhaps sugar and
dextrin solubility reasons ( as is often commented) but more likely for
viscosity reasons.

The viscosity of the wort in the grain particle controls the diffusion of
the wort out of the grain particle. The lower the temperature, the slower
the diffusion and presumably the less efficient the extraction. ( and
perhaps the origin for the idea that solubility was the problem)

Stuck sparges also occur at low sparge temperatures as water soluble
proteins and various higher MW carbohydrates exhibit a strong inverse
viscosity temperature dependence - as those who have made rye beers know.

Once these water soluble higher molecular weight substances have been
removed by a higher temperature sparge at the beginning, a lower temperature
sparge water is satisfactory, if desirable for other reasons, as the
concentration of the sugar is not likely to exceed its solubility.  The heat
input saved by such a profile will have to be input at the boiler rather
than the sparge, so I don't see much of an advantage unless equipment
limitations ( like available BTUs at the sparge tank),  enter into the
picture.

I understand those bad equipment days or weeks Pivo had . This year it was
my sprayer, which after much ado about non-siphoning and ordering parts and
waiting and  repairing, dragging it behind my John Deere I promptly rolled
it over in the vineyard.  Luckily more parts were available locally and
repair was easy and it works fine now. Now, as of last night,  my newish
power washer leaks gasoline out the air cleaner. Worked fine last year.
Figure that out. I have an idea, but as yet unsubstantiated.  I guess we
could go back to low tech but what fun is that?

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 10:16:37 -0500
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: was HSA

On Mon, 6 May 2002 00:18:52 -0400, "Steve Alexander"
<steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>I did not mean to offend Alistair X or Larry Bristol

OK.  Let's move forward from here.

>we are discussing matters of fact, not opinion .

Actually, Steve, I think we have been discussing both.  Yes, MBO is a
fact.  It exists.  While it is impossible to completely prevent all
oxidation, there are things a homebrewer can do to reduce it.  I have
no doubt that the flavor changes you have described occur over time,
and that they are the direct result of MBO.  [In case anyone missed it,
I retracted my earlier comment that I was unaware of any relationship
between MBO and staling, and I emphatically repeat that retraction
now.]  Naturally, the length of time before those changes manifest
themselves will vary from one batch to the next.

Matters having to do with taste, however, are opinion.  Sure, we can
measure scientifically the amounts of certain compounds that contribute
certain flavors.  And we can talk about their "flavor thresholds".  But
a flavor threshold is by necessity some sort of "average", because that
threshold will be different from individual to individual.  And while
some flavors might universally be considered to be "good" or "bad", we
are seldom confronted with such absolutes in our beer.  Certain flavors
(diacetyl jumps to mind) might be considered "bad" in one context yet
"good" in another.  "More" of a given flavor might be appropriate, but
somewhere along the way, it becomes "too much".  Taste is subjective,
and (I hope you agree) has little to do with fact.

Beer judges, of course, are not immune to this subjectivity.  They must
judge the beers placed in front of them relative both to the other
entries and also to some accepted standard, which in some cases, does
not even exist in the real world.  That they can make any sense out of
this at all is a tribute to their patience and perseverance.  Having
myself made the attempt to judge beers (a long time ago in a galaxy
far, far away) before the BJCP existed makes me realize that I would
rather be an umpire at a Little League baseball game!  [And THAT says
quite a MOUTHFUL!]

I certainly agree with you that the beer judges' failure to note
oxidation does not in any way prove or even imply that it is not
present.

>> Second, when one of the many people tells you that their beer does not
>> show signs of oxidation <...snip...>
>In matters of fact the opinion polls of "many people" don't count at all

I most certainly agree!  But as I explained above, I do not think that
matters of taste are matters of fact.  My comment was not to imply that
someone might have found the magic bullet to avoid all oxidation, but
rather that due to the multitude of uncontrolled variables in
homebrewing, signs of oxidation will exist at vastly different levels,
and may, perhaps, be well below the flavor threshold of the brewer for
the entire life of the beer.  There is nothing wrong with this.

>Accelerated aging, ...

Steve, I know that this is a technique used for test purposes.  But
every time I have seen a side-by-side data comparing accelerated aging
versus natural aging, such as in the reference we have been discussing
so much of late, there are marked differences between them.  It really
makes me question its validity, but I suppose that is beside the point.

My point is that I do not make my beer for test purposes, so I am not
willing to subject it to such a technique.  I will allow it to age at
the same rate I do (heaven knows that is fast enough), and if it shows
signs of staling before it is fully consumed, then I can throw the rest
out.  [In reality, I would probably accelerate its rate of consumption
at the first hint that its days are numbered.  Problem solved! 
<smile>]

>triangle test ... 

I have seen this term used a few times, and I have to confess that I am
ignorant of its meaning.  Perhaps someone will explain it to me. 
Private email is OK unless one thinks it would benefit others.

You know what the bottom line is, Steve?  In many ways, we have been
saying the same thing.  Of course, they are said from a different
perspective and with different words.  That is what makes such
discussions like this so healthy, interesting, and even entertaining!


Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX   AR=[1093.6,223.2]
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 16:08:10 -0400 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Final Reminder BUZZ OFF HB Competition

> Final notice of 2002 Buzz Off Homebrew Competition
> 
You should have your entries just about ready to mail or drop off for this
year's Buzz Off will be held on Saturday, June 1st at Iron Hill Brewery and
Restaurant in West Chester, PA.  Entries will be accepted from May 13th
through May 29th at regional homebrew stores and at Victory Brewing Company
in Downingtown, PA.  Mail-in entries must go to Victory and be received no
later than Wednesday May 29th.  The Buzz Off is once again an MCAB
Qualifying Event for the 2003 MCAB.  For those of you did attend the MCAB
this year in Cleveland, you are aware of the wonderful beers that were well
represented there, a number of the winners coming from last year's Buzz Off.
Judges please contact us to reserve your position at the judging tables.
Further details and forms can be found at the Buzz web site at
http://hbd.org/buzz/.   

> David Houseman
> Competition Organizer
> housemanfam at earthlink.net


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Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:46:11 -0500
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE:  homebrew competitions

Marty
  I've been brewing for about 4 years, and just wanted to know how I was
doing compared with my brewing peers.  I've only entered one contest.  I
entered 3 beers and a mead, and got really mixed results.  A wee heavy got
42 pts across the board, and didn't place.  A good beer, but not as good as
at least 3 others.  That's ok.  I had a mead that scored 35-40 pts with all
judges except one, who said it was undrinkable, and scored a 20 or
something.  One had an infection and the other just did ok, mid 30's.  I did
not try to brew any of these beers to style, and did ok.  I think I will
just try to brew beer that I like, not worry about style and competitions,
and have fun.  At least I know my beers are in the slot of decent beer.  I
belong to a homebrew club, and we have a beer of the month contest, and if I
happen to brew that style, I enter it.  Everyone in my club brews good beer,
and very few enter contests, except the local ones.  The brewers who are
judges, tend to enter more beers than the others.  I may enter my local
contest once in a while, but only if I happen to have a good beer on hand
when the time comes.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 07:00:07 +1000
From: "Phil Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Cold Sparging By Doc Pivo

Now here is a subject I am interested in. I have long suspected that hot
sparging really wasn't terribly important. Though I must admit that even my
unscientific approach to matters kept me thinking that hot water would
better dissolve sugars during the lauter process.

I have had some interesting experiences "failing" to abide by the accepted
norm in brewing practices. Most of these occurred through accident.

Some years back, when I used an electric heated kettle, a failure in the
electric supply caused a dramatic drop in voltage to our house. I was right
in the middle of a brew day and the very best I could achieve from my kettle
was a pathetic insipid simmer. I thought my beer would be ruined because I
could not achieve a good rolling boil. In fact I could not achieve a boil at
all!

I was stunned to find the resulting beer was just as bitter as the previous
identical one I had brewed. This went against everything I had come to
believe was gospel in brewing.

But I question any energy saving achieved by cold sparging. I sparge hot
mainly to get hot wort into the kettle and well on its way to being boiled.
Cold sparging for me would simply mean a longer heating process in my
kettle.

But I like where the Doc is coming from. When I look at some recent posts
and all this concern about HSA (God help us, are we now going to spray CO2
over our mash tun and boil with a float on top?!!), I realise that some poor
souls just haven't learnt much about brewing at all. My comments about
filling the brew house with CO2 were of course facetious, but it seems some
folk in here are well on the way to trying it. Just a tip here, you will
need to boil with an electric element.

If you are going to be that paranoid about brewing then I can only imagine
the best you can hope to brew is paranoid beer, and I can only imagine that
it must taste bloody awful!

Your own attitude is reflected in the beer you make, Charlie Papazian
touched on this all those years ago. But sadly, some brewers have lost touch
completely.

I don't at all discount the scientific knowledge gained in the search for
better brewing. But some just haven't got a clue how to use this knowledge!

Nor much of a clue about how to pass it on. Nor even to suggest that it may
be totally theoretical!

I don't want to be thought of as getting into bed with Doc Pivo (I've seen
him in the flesh - well, with clothes on - and I'd sooner be in the bog with
Marilyn any day) but at least he comes at things from a different angle.

This can be a refreshing change because the HBD seems heavily weighted
against such different angles.

Or perhaps that is just my perception.

Cheers
Phil





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Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:40:35 -0700
From: "doug klon" <klonyklon at hotmail.com>
Subject: Frustrated All Grain Newbie

Hi All -

I have been brewing partial mash for a few years now, and recently decided 
to go whole hog. I mash & sparge in a Rubbermaid cooler with a false bottom 
and boil in a 9 gallon SS pot on a Camp Chef. I primarily use recipes from 
books like "Clonebrews" and the like. My problem is extremely low 
efficiency. Last weekend I made a Mirror Pond clone with an expected OG of 
1044, and I ended up closer to 1034 or so. This has happened each time I 
have tried an all grain beer. What gives? I am mashing at the correct 
temperatures and with correct grain amounts and water volumes (1.33 qts/lb, 
right?). I check for conversion with iodine and sparge till the runoff is 
clear. How can I begin troubleshooting?

Thanks,
Doug Klon



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Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 19:08:33 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Two-Hearted

Its almost summer, and while some thirst for Lawnmower Lager, I alway yearn
for HOPS!!!!!

Paging Kevin Kutskill!!!! How go the Clone wars?? Have you mastered the big
two hearted? If so

please let me know.

Phil Wilcox
Warden - Prison City Brewers

ps. Did anyone else brewing Maibock this weekend get the funny feeling
George Fix was laughing
at them as they went through that torturous six stem mash program???
 ...just kidding George!!!



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Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 21:51:38 -0700
From: "the Ludwigs" <mwludwig at tqci.net>
Subject: Re: Min Brewery Size

Ted Major asks:
>For those of you lucky enough to have a dedicated brewery, 
>how big is it? How big should it be? What is the smallest 
>usable brewery?

I'm finishing off my basement and have a room set aside for the Flat
Iron Brewery. The "room" doubles as a utility room with the heater, hot
water tank, well tank, sump pump, etc. I'd say I have roughly a
dedicated 8 ft X 9 ft area (doesn't include the utility room stuff). I'm
going all-electric so there's a 220 volt / 30 amp receptacle, plumbing
for a big double wash basin, a vent fan (not picked out or installed
yet), extra 120 volt receptacles. Although I tiled the rest of the
basement, I think I'm going with some sort of industrial paint finish on
the concrete floor. Seems like that would be more sanitary and easier to
clean than grouted tiles. Unfortunately, there is no floor drain so I'll
have to be careful#:o. The brewery will open into the yet-to-be-built
bar (for convenience). For those familiar with the SHMS (soft heat mash
system), I'm going to try out the system with the hot water mash heating
coil replaced by an electric heating element. Still with the same 5
gallon Gott cooler and Power Wheels gear motor powered mash mixer (what
can I say? works great!).  Maybe by 7/4, I'll have the basement complete
and start doing some mash experimentation!  

Cheers!
Dave Ludwig
Flat Iron Brewery
Southern MD

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Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 19:58:16 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <bgros at aggienetwork.com>
Subject: Reminder: 2002 Bay Area Brew Off 

Announcing the 15th annual National Bay Area Brew Off homebrew competition.
This year held in conjunction with the Alameda County Fair. AHA Sanctioned.

Judges and stewards needed.

Details at http://www.draughtboard.org/babopage.htm

Note that since we're working with the county fair, the entry process is
a little different.
    *  Entry fees and forms are due by May 20.
    *  Actual bottles of beer are due by June 14th.

Most AHA styles accepted. Entry fee $5/entry
Open to ALL homebrewers in the US, Canada and beyond.
Cash prizes and more.
Judges and stewards can sign up on the web page as well.

Hope to see you there.

   - Bryan



Bryan Gros       babo at draughtboard.org
Oakland, CA

Draught Board Homebrew Club          http://www.draughtboard.org



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