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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Effect of sunlight on boiling wort (Steven S)
  Re: Dedicated Brewery (Todd Goodman)
  AHA Club Only-IPA ("H. Dowda")
  Good Eats Beer Episode ("John O'Connell at Work")
  Commercial beers and competitions ("Dennis Collins")
  RE: AB and Bud Flavor Stability ("Dennis Lewis")
  herms temp revisited ("the freeman's")
  Re: was HSA (Jeff Renner)
  CAP for American Beer Month (Jeff Renner)
  Alton Brown Beer Show? (Bill Wible)
  RE: Frustrated All Grain Newbie (Bill Tobler)
  Frustrated All Grain Newbie (LJ Vitt)
  Fix's maibock ("Frank Tutzauer")
  RE: Frustrated All Grain Newbie (Mark Alfaro)
  Re: Frustrated All Grain Newbie ("Larry Bristol")
  RE: Brewery size; competitions (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Brewing systems...summary [But Long] (Jeff Stampes)
  Dave Burley; Cold sparging; Batch sparging (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Skunky triangles and cold side sparging ("Doug Hurst")
  Two Mentors - One Goal ("Sweeney, David")
  Four Days Left, Don't Let It Slip By! ("phil sides jr")
  RE: Effect of sunlight on boiling wort (grayling)
  Re: LOCAL POST: where's the good beer in NYC? (Spencer W Thomas)
  Blueberry White (Steven S)


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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 06:54:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: Re: Effect of sunlight on boiling wort

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>Sunlight will skunk wort because the exposed yeast cells are damaged by
> UV rays.  Your boiling wort, however, will be just fine.

Erm correct me if i'm wrong but this CANNOT be entirely true.

 - Research has shown its the compounds in hops that contribute to
   "skunked" beer

 - Megaswill is filtered to have no yeast yet it still skunks

 - Wine is made with yeast yet does not have the same reaction

 - Mead is made with yeast yet does not tend to react either


Sunlight is probably indeed damaging to yeast but sunlight reacts with
hops to create the off beer flavors that commercial drinkers have grown so
accustomed to.



Steven St.Laurent	403forbidden.net	[580.2,181.4] Rennerian
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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 07:54:43 -0400
From: Todd Goodman <tgoodman at bonedaddy.net>
Subject: Re: Dedicated Brewery

On Sat, 4 May 2002 00:13:54 -0400, "TED MAJOR" <tidmarsh at charter.net>
wrote:
>For those of you lucky enough to have a dedicated brewery,
>how big is it? How big should it be? What is the smallest
>usable brewery?

I currently have a dedicated brewery and am in line for a much larger
one.

My current brewery is in part of my basement.  It's in an area of
roughly 22' x 7' but not really rectangular.  The floor is tiled with
commercial tile.  It contains a refridgerator, a commercial stove
(natural gas), a commercial two-bowl sink with drain boards on both
sides and a spray hose.  There's also a small dorm fridge that I use to
keep my yeast.  I have around 15 bins of grain (in the gamma-seal bins)
in there two as well as a couple bags of grain that I use quickly.
I have approximately 20 five gallon corny kegs and two ten gallon cornies.
Not to mention a lot of bottle.  Three converted kegs sit on the floor
when not in use.  Natural gas is run directly from the meter (needed a
larger supply for the stove than what was currently run in the house)
and there are hot and cold water available in an outdoor faucet (inside
over the sink in addition to the spray and regular faucet on the sink).
That lets me use a regular garden hose for the immersion chiller and a
regular jet bottle washer.

The ceiling is quite low in places since I boxed in ductwork that was
very low.  I'm 6'5" tall and I've just about knocked myself out before
down there, but luckily haven't put out an eye on the corners that are
at eye level for me.

The basement was finished with a permit pulled, so the entire brewery
area was inspected by the building inspector and fire department
(the board of health came out too, but that was at the request of the
building inspector).  It was interesting dealing with them all since
it was kind of a first for them.  They required a large number of fresh
air vents to the outside, a hard-wired heat and CO detector, and a fire
suppression system (which in turn required a special hood over the
stove).

So it's pretty crowded in there.  Though it works well while I'm
brewing, there are a few of reasons why I'm getting a larger area:

1)  It's pretty cluttered in there and I don't like that from a safety
or cleaning standpoint (and just plain aesthetic point of view either).

2)  I need more temp control than just a single fridge.  I really want a
couple of temp controlled chest freezers.  One to serve from and one to
ferment in.

3)  I'm tired of waking up on my back on the floor of the brewery (I
know, I know, cut down the imbibing).  I want more headroom.  Both to
let me stand up straight and also to support a chain winch system for
moving the converted kegs and carboys around.

4)  My brewery is being removed to make the entire basement into a
playroom.

The new brewery will be in a new basement area being built.  It's much
larger (around 22'x24') and the floor is lower than the floor in the old
area (so more headroom).  The floor will be tiled with commercial tile
as in the old (it works really well) but will now include a floor drain.
The stove, sink, and hood are moving into the new area along with the
refridgerators.  I'll get a couple of chest freezers and probably a
bunch more stainless tables.  I'll definately be plumbing in hot and
cold outdoor faucets in there too.

Sorry for the length of the post.  Hope this helps anyone considering a
separate brew space.

Regards,

Todd Goodman
Westford, MA  [630.3, 84 Rennerian]


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 05:13:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: AHA Club Only-IPA

Who won?



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 09:06:54 -0400
From: "John O'Connell at Work" <oconn at mindspring.com>
Subject: Good Eats Beer Episode

Dearest Collective,

My wife and I are big fans of Alton Brown and "Good Eats." As was brought
up by several posters back in March (some decidedly more put off than
others), the "Amber Waves of Grain" homebrewing episode listed on
Altonbrown.com to show around March 13th never aired. We began to wonder
ourselves if it ever would.

Well, my wife found another fan site today with a _long_ interview of Alton
by a dedicated show fan named Michael Menninger:

http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/References/TheOtherInfo/ABInterview.htm

He only mentions the brewing episode a couple of times, but the upshot is
that it will be shown, someday.

We are going to go see Alton at his book signing Thursday, and will try to
pin him down on a date then.

Back to lurking,

John O'Connell

Atlanta, GA.



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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 09:13:24 -0400
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Commercial beers and competitions

I would pose an interesting question to the forum regarding competitions.
What relatively available commercial beers are the best examples of any
particular style and what do you think they would score in a competition?
By "relatively available" I mean beer that you don't have to leave the
continent to find.  I know there are examples listed in the BJCP guidelines
but I would like to hear homebrewers opinions on which ones best represent
the beer styles as outlined in the BJCP guide.  I don't necessarily want to
see all 25 or so categories covered, just a few of the more common ones, and
don't forget to give it a projected competition score.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com



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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 09:41:08 -0400
From: "Dennis Lewis" <dblewis at dblewis.com>
Subject: RE: AB and Bud Flavor Stability

Since we're on the A-B topic, I was lucky to get a tour of the Houston
facility (about 8 years ago) by one of the assistant brewmasters. One of the
things that stuck in my mind since it seemed so unusual. The 3000 bbl
fermenters are filled with CO2, then the cooled wort is pumped  into the top
and drops thru the CO2.

The explanation for this is that some undesirable flavors are dissolved in the
CO2 and are purged from the wort. These tanks are gigantic, as you might
imagine, and the first wort in drops maybe 60-70 feet. Didn't have the
presence of mind to ask what was being stripped, but I suspect that it's DMS.

One other thing I recall is that they try to fill the fermenter so that the
braunhefe/hop drive/brown gook on the rocky head is stuck to the dome on the
fermenter. Makes for a cleaner bitterness.

So who's going to build a wort drop tower in their backyard?

Dennis Lewis

[175.3mi, 113.3] Apparent Rennerian (aka Warren, Ohio)
In wine there is wisdom. In beer there is strength.
In water there is bacteria. --German Proverb



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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 08:45:11 -0500
From: "the freeman's" <potsus at bellsouth.net>
Subject: herms temp revisited

I should poiint out that when I run the temp up to 200 degrees, I have
already dumped enough 170 water into the mashtun for the sparge. (kinda
like a batch sparge)  The temp increase to 200 in the HLT is then used
for the sparged wort only.  A series of valves allows the heat exchanger
to work, but preclude that high temp going through the mash.

As Bill pointed out, 200 in the mashtun is likely to release undesirable
tannins into the wort.

Bill Freeman aka ER



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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 09:41:01 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: was HSA

"Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com> of Bellville, TX, casting all 
caution to the wind, once again admits to ignorance:

>  >triangle test ...
>
>I have seen this term used a few times, and I have to confess that I am
>ignorant of its meaning.  Perhaps someone will explain it to me.

It's a useful and powerful way of telling if one thing is different 
from another.  You don't even ask the panelists what is different, 
nor do you tell them what you are looking for.

Here's how it works.  You have products A and B.  You randomly 
provide each panelist with one sample of either A or B and two 
samples of the remaining (some have two of A, others two of B).  The 
identities are hidden.  If these are taste tests (as opposed to aroma 
or visual), panelists are given an amount of time to taste, then at a 
signal, they push the one that is different away from the other two. 
You then collect the results and wave your hands over them or 
something like that that I don't understand, and figure out 
statistical deviance or something that lets you know the how likely 
the results are real or a result of chance.

While you can later ask panelists which they prefer, the beauty of 
this is that the panelists don't have to decide anything about the 
samples other than which is different.  It allows intuition to have a 
part.

At MCAB-1 in Houston, I participated in a triangle taste test with 
home brewed beers that were first wort hopped or not (I think, we 
weren't told what was being tested at the time).  I never did hear 
the results (anyone know?).  Interestingly, one large table did 
better than the other at picking out the different one.  I think the 
testers may have thrown out all results thinking that something went 
wrong.  I think that the first table was filled quickly with 
interested and experienced beer tasters, but the second table had to 
be shanghaied.  Perhaps they weren't as perceptive or discriminating.

Regarding accelerated aging at 40C:

>My point is that I do not make my beer for test purposes, so I am not
>willing to subject it to such a technique.  I will allow it to age at
>the same rate I do (heaven knows that is fast enough)

Actually, Larry, you can use the same technique for slowing your 
aging as you do for beer.  You know that 40C (~body temperature) 
accelerates aging.  How about lowering your temperature to cellar 
temperature, 15C, like ales are kept.  That should slow things down. 
Or go to 0C - lagering temperature.  Or the ultimate - stop aging 
entirely at liquid nitrogen temperature (-196C).  Just like Woody 
Allen in Sleeper.

><><><><

Aside to Brian, who is trying to avoid being served with papers:

>Brewing at... Um, Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan which is nowhere near Winnipeg

Drew Avis blew your cover:

>on the off chance Brian Lundeen makes the trip from Winterpeg

Jeff

- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 09:52:23 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: CAP for American Beer Month

Brewers

Don't forget that July is American Beer Month.  And, of course, the 
perfect beer for that is a Classic American Pilsner.  It's about time 
to fire up the kettles to brew one so it's ready for the Fourth!

This doesn't need to be limited to US brewers - you Cannucks, 
Aussies, Kiwis, Limeys/Pommies, Krauts (who else on the list haven't 
I insulted?) can celebrate American Beer Month, too.

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:41:31 -0400
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Alton Brown Beer Show?


Awhile back, I read that there was supposed to have been an
Alton Brown Beer Show on the Food Network.  Several people
posted that it was not on, then it seems to have disappeared.

Does anybody know what happened, or if it will ever be on?
I like AB, and think this would have been a great show.

Thanks

Bill



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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 09:58:25 -0500
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: Frustrated All Grain Newbie

Doug,
   I would start with checking your thermometer and hydrometer for accuracy.
Also, you need to know the efficiency of your setup, so you know how much
base grain to start with.  Recipes are a guideline, and you need to tailor
them to your system.  I use Promash to figure water, hops, and grain needed.
It's a very valuable tool.  A recipe may say you need 9 lbs of 2 row and 1
lb of 60L crystal to end up with a FG of 1052.  Most times, they don't tell
you what their efficiency is.  That example would be an efficiency of 75%.
If you only get 65% with your setup, you would end up with a 1045 beer.  To
get back up to 1052, you would have to use 10.5# of 2 row instead of 9#.  I
usually do not increase/decrease the speciality grains, as I figure that is
the correct amount for 5 gallons, regardless of the amount of base malt.  I
could be wrong here, but that's how I do it.

Using Promsh, if the person who made the recipe Mirror Pond had an
efficiency of 75%, and he/she ended up with a FG of 1044, and you ended up
with a 1034 beer, you only got about 58% efficiency.  Check your
instruments.

Your sparge water should be 170-180 deg, and it should take about 45 min to
1 hour to complete the sparge.

I hoped this helped.  I have to go brew now.  My favorite, "Your Father's
Mustache"  A CAP that has to be ready by the end of June.

Cheers,

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 08:39:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Frustrated All Grain Newbie

In HBD#3934, Doug complained about his poor efficiency:

>Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:40:35 -0700
>From: "doug klon" <klonyklon at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Frustrated All Grain Newbie
 
>Hi All -
 
>I have been brewing partial mash for a few years now, and recently decided 
>to go whole hog. I mash & sparge in a Rubbermaid cooler with a false bottom 
>and boil in a 9 gallon SS pot on a Camp Chef. I primarily use recipes from 
>books like "Clonebrews" and the like. My problem is extremely low 
>Lefficiency. Last weekend I made a Mirror Pond clone with an expected OG of 
>1044, and I ended up closer to 1034 or so. This has happened each time I 
>have tried an all grain beer. What gives? I am mashing at the correct 
>temperatures and with correct grain amounts and water volumes (1.33 qts/lb, 
>right?). I check for conversion with iodine and sparge till the runoff is 
>clear. How can I begin troubleshooting?
 
Have you measured the PH of your mash?
Water chemistry can make a big difference.  Using my tap water, I got
very poor results when I moved from partial mash to all grain.  I learned
I needed to adjust my mash PH and sparge PH.  Dave Miller's book gives
5.2 to 5.6 as desired PH of the mash.  I don't see the figure in the book
for sparge water.  I use 5.8.

I need to reduce the PH with my water.  I use phospheric acid.
Some other choices are gypsom and latic acid.  There must be more.

I have also tried some bottled water and found I do not need to adjust
the PH..  I think I will use it again when the beer style is appropriate
for softer water.

My suggestion for Doug is check the mash PH, and adjust if necessary.

 - Leo Vitt
Rochester, MN




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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 11:51:54 -0400
From: "Frank Tutzauer" <comfrank at acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Fix's maibock

Phil Wilcox asks:

"Did anyone else brewing Maibock this weekend get the funny feeling
George Fix was laughing at them as they went through that torturous six stem
mash program??? ...just kidding George!!!"

My buddy and I are set up only for single step infusion, and when he looked
at that complicated mash regime, he asked, "What should we do?"  I said
let's mix hot water with grain and see where it stabilizes.  It stabilized
at 156F, so 156F is what we mashed at!  (I think George would have
approved.)

 --frank in Buffalo




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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 09:25:42 -0700
From: Mark Alfaro <malfaro at qcpi.com>
Subject: RE: Frustrated All Grain Newbie

Hi Doug,
The recipes in Clone Brews and other books assume a certain system 
efficiency. It seems that the efficiency of your system is less than what 
is assumed for the recipe. You only reached 77% of your desired gravity 
with your Mirror Pond clone. So try again with 23% more grain. If this 
works out, you will have a better idea of scaling the grain bill for your 
system. Grain is cheap and not worth your frustration. Good Luck.
Mark
1950, 262.1 Apparent Rennerian











Hi All -
I have been brewing partial mash for a few years now, and recently decided
to go whole hog. I mash & sparge in a Rubbermaid cooler with a false bottom
and boil in a 9 gallon SS pot on a Camp Chef. I primarily use recipes from
books like "Clonebrews" and the like. My problem is extremely low
efficiency. Last weekend I made a Mirror Pond clone with an expected OG of
1044, and I ended up closer to 1034 or so. This has happened each time I
have tried an all grain beer. What gives? I am mashing at the correct
temperatures and with correct grain amounts and water volumes (1.33 qts/lb,
right?). I check for conversion with iodine and sparge till the runoff is
clear. How can I begin troubleshooting?
Thanks,
Doug Klon





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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:27:30 -0500
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: Frustrated All Grain Newbie

On Tue, 7 May 2002 00:13:21 -0400, "doug klon" <klonyklon at hotmail.com>
wrote:

>I have been brewing partial mash for a few years now, and recently decided 
>to go whole hog. I mash & sparge in a Rubbermaid cooler with a false bottom 
>and boil in a 9 gallon SS pot on a Camp Chef. I primarily use recipes from 
>books like "Clonebrews" and the like. My problem is extremely low 
>efficiency. Last weekend I made a Mirror Pond clone with an expected OG of 
>1044, and I ended up closer to 1034 or so. This has happened each time I 
>have tried an all grain beer. What gives? I am mashing at the correct 
>temperatures and with correct grain amounts and water volumes (1.33 qts/lb, 
>right?). I check for conversion with iodine and sparge till the runoff is 
>clear. How can I begin troubleshooting?

I do not see any obvious problems in what you describe, Doug.  You
troubleshoot by checking just about everything. <groan>   It is
probably best to start with the simple things and work your way up from
there.  This is known as Occam's Razor (one should not increase, beyond
what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain
anything).  You will find the problem in the last place you look, so
the best advice is to start there!  [And the secret to making a killing
in the stock market is: buy low, sell high.]   :-)

Start by figuring out just how bad the problem really is.  That way, as
you account for bits of inefficiency along the way, you know when you
can stop looking.  When an expected OG is published for a recipe, it is
normally based on an assumed mash/lauter efficiency.  Check your recipe
source and see if you can find it.  Most of the time, it is probably
around 75%.  We can compute your apparent efficiency by coming around
through the back door:
     1.044 is to 75% as 1.034 is to "x"
I compute "x" to be about 58% (34/44*75).  Yep, prob'ly can do a little
better.

Another thing worth doing is to feed your recipe into one of the
brewing software programs (I like Promash - YABADABADO) to see how
changes in efficiency affect the expected OG.  Maybe the published OG
is a typo or just plain nonsense for the amount of grain used.  It
would not be the first time this has happened.

Check out that 1.034 gravity reading.  Is it accurate?  Is there
something wrong with the instrument?  Take some measurements against a
known sample to see if they match.  Beg, borrow, or stea... (no, no, I
mean) buy another hydrometer for comparison purposes, or see if you can
get your hands on a refractometer.  Did you read the wort temperature
at the same time and adjust the gravity reading accordingly?  If the
temperature of the wort happened to be 117F, for example, then 1.034
would adjust to the target 1.044.  [OK, OK, OK... Stay with me.  I
really have seen things as obvious as this overlooked in the past... by
others, of course!]

One common cause of lower than expected gravity is a volume mismatch. 
Assuming the recipe was for a 5 gallon batch, did you really have 5
gallons of wort?  If you add a mere 1 quart of water (giving 5.25
gallons), then your gravity will be reduced by 5% (after all, 1 quart
increases a 5 gallon volume by 5%), and 1.044 becomes 1.042!  We can
crunch some numbers to see if this is one of the likely suspects:
     1.044 is to 5.0 gallons as 1.034 is to "x"
I compute "x" to be about 6.5 gallons (44/34*5).  Not likely to be that
far off, unless you read the gravity BEFORE the boil?

Well, I think it is time to move into potential mash/sparge problems. 
Start with the most likely:

a)  Insufficient time for saccharification - Your starch test would
seem to have this eliminated.  It also eliminates efficiency problems
having to do with mash temperature and grain to water ratio.

b)  Insufficient sparging - Sparge until the runoff is clear?  I'm not
sure what you mean.  You should (gently) recirculate the runoff back on
top of the grains until the runoff is clear (of grain husks and
particles), and then start collecting.  Sparge until the gravity of the
runoff reaches about 1.010 or so.  [I understand that you can also
detect this point by reading the pH, but I am not experienced in that
technique.  Personally, I know I will collect all the volume I can boil
before reaching this point.  There goes some of MY efficiency!]  Pay
attention to the temperature and pH of the sparge water.  Traditional
wisdom (seemingly in question even as I write this) is that lower
temperature means lower extraction.  Think about how the sparge water
gets added to the lauter tun.  It needs to be added GENTLY so that it
does not disturb the grain bed.  If a channel through the grain bed is
created (think about the effects of soil erosion) much of the sparge
water will flow through that channel, leaving other parts of the grain
bed "unsparged".

c)  Insufficient milling - The grains should be crushed enough to allow
mash liquor to enter the endosperm.  Too little crushing means that
some of the grain does not get mashed at all and your efficiency drops.
 Too much crushing can lead to the condition known as a "stuck sparge".
 While a serious problem, it is not a (direct) cause of efficiency
problems, although the methods used to "unstick" can do so.  If your
grains are already crushed for you when you buy them, my bet is that
this is not your problem.

Whew!  I am out of ideas about now.  Except for this one:  Why worry
about efficiency at all?  This is a commercial brewer's problem, where
they have to squeeze every bit of goodness out of each and every grain
of malt (makes an interesting picture, doesn't it?) for economic
reasons.  Just use more grain until you get the gravity you want so
that it makes beer the way you like it!

(Oh, yeah!  I almost forgot.)  And send me some!


Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX   AR=[1093.6,223.2]
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 12:40:18 -0400 
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Brewery size; competitions


Ted Major asked for input on brewery size. After much pleading, begging, and
beer-bullet gathering, I took control of our drive-under 1 car garage (75 yr
old concrete house) for my dedicated brewery about 4 years ago. It is about
9 x 18, and now that I've been in it for about 4 years, IT'S NOT BIG
ENOUGH!!!

I keep everything beer related in there. Along the right wall (adjoining the
basement) I put in an open cabinet frame with an 8' formica countertop and
dropped a laundry sink into the middle of it. I store my carboys (10 of
them) & my miscellaneous equipment (buckets, bottle tree, racking hose &
cane, keg transfer tubing, etc.) underneath it. At the far end of the
counter in the back corner there's a small table for my yeast growing
activities (stir plate, canned starter wort storage, etc). At the front end
is the door into the basement.

On the other side of the brewery (from back to front) there is about 4' for
storage of full kegs & cases in the coolest corner (outside walls,
underground),  a beer fridge, a 4'x4'x18" insulated fridge extension box
(temp controlled fermenting chamber), a 2'x2' insulated box on a stand for
my 12.2 gallon TMS conical, room for another one, then a few stacks of empty
cases of bottles & corny kegs. This leaves about 5' open area across the
middle.

At the back end wall is a short, narrow bench with my grain mill attached,
with shelves underneath for storage bins of grain (100-200 lbs), carboy
washing/drying rack, cp bottle filler, etc. I set my fermenting or aging
carboys on this bench when the ambient temp is OK. There is one 'basement
style' window in this wall.

Sitting in the middle of all this is my 2-tier brewing rig. I built it on
casters and move it outside to brew, weather permitting. Otherwise, it is
very crowded in the brewery on brewday, especially if I have visitors. I
NEED MORE ROOM!!!


Marty asked why we enter competitions. Well, I enter a little because of #1
(glory), more for #3 (feedback), but also some for #4, which is to do my
little part to support other homebrewing organizations (AHA, area clubs,
etc). I don't enter many comps - a few that are in my region, and I always
put 4 entries in the NHC. 5 or 6 bucks is OK for me, and 8 (member) for the
NHC is fine (2 rounds), but any more than that and I'd pass on it. For the
most part, I'm satisfied with the judges evaluations, but there are some
that need to expand their command of the english language. Comments like
'OK', 'Bad', 'Good', and the like are not very helpful.

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
http://hbd.org/franklin




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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:46:23 -0600
From: Jeff Stampes <jeff.stampes at xilinx.com>
Subject: Brewing systems...summary [But Long]


[Complimentary copy sent to those who replied to me off list]

Thanks to everyone for your input on complete brewing systems. After
much deliberation, and some negotiation and discussion with my amazing
wife, I finally decided on a completely equipped and upgraded 20 gallon
system from Beer, Beer, More Beer (http://www.morebeer.com).

I thought I summarize some of the factors that led me to this decision
for the interested among you.  Apologies for the length, but I thought
this might come in handy for someone searching the archives in the
future.

One common theme I have always head from RIMS users, and indeed even
brewers I know who work at brewpubs/micros is that the worst job in a
big system is removing the spent grains.  For years now, I have been
mashing in a converted cooler, and I can just dump it into a large tub
when I'm done, so when I tried to imagine myself standing on a ladder
leaning into a vat of steaming hot grains and scooping them out, I was
not relishing the thought.    So I became very interested in the Brewing
"Sculptures" from morebeer which incorporate their Tippy Dump mashtun.
With this feature, when you're done mashing, you pull the lock pin, and
the whole mash tun flips on a pivot point and allows you to dump the
grains down a stainless chute into whatever receptacle you want.  Very
Cool!

So I called them and spoke to Olin there (a very helpful and
knowledgable man).  He answered all my questions, and then provided me
with the phone number of someone in my area that had a similar system,
so I could go see it in person.  The next day I paid Jim Neilson a
visit, and toured his brew setup.  Every aspect of the system seemed
very well done, with one notable exception.  The way the wort was
recirculated back into the mash tun seemed to allow for a lot of HSA
(Dare I mention that?).  I was delighted to learn when speaking to Olin
later that they had designed that aspect of the system to eliminate that
problem.   Jim raved about the ease of use and cleanup of his system,
and when I tasted his beer, it was the final selling point.

Then I had to decide 2 things:  What size, and what options?  The size
was a nobrainer...bigger is better, right?   Why make 10 gallons when
you can make 20?  And with only a small difference in cost, that was the
way I was going.  The options were far more difficult.  What I wanted
was the full Pro setup: all stainless steel, including the pump, the
oxygenation assembly, and all the fittings (pro grade stainless
butterfly valves and clover clamps).   But I initially scaled back and
got the Semi-Pro upgrade.  Then out of the blue, my
now-even-more-amazing wife says "You know, I think you should just order
the Pro setup.  Consider it your Father's Day gift to yourself".  Well
she didn't have to tell me twice!

So now I wait, and they build.  I should have the system in June-July
sometime, and I eagerly await.

 -Jeff




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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 12:44:53 -0400 
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: Dave Burley; Cold sparging; Batch sparging

I've not posted very much in a while, but I couldn't let today's digest go
by without saying 'Welcome back, Dave Burley'. I hope you kick that problem
in the a** and rejoin us as a regular. As for HWO (your acronym for hot wort
oxidation, I believe) I've been using the '6/7 covered' method since you
espoused it a few years back, and I believe that it has helped my shelf life
a bit. Whew, for a while there I was afraid that I was going to have to
flood the brew area with CO2, use an oxy/propane burner, and wear a scuba
rig while brewing ...

And then there's Pivo ... It was rather tedious reading getting to the point
in the Doc's ranting post, and I almost gave up before I got there, but when
he finally got around to it, I was rather disappointed to learn that this
new revelation was about sparging with cold water. Cool (pun intended), but
what does this gain you? You either have to heat it up in the HLT or in the
boiler, so what's the advantage? What effect would it have on first wort
hopping? Of course, you could couple your 'cold sparging' technique with the
'cold boiling' process. There's no commercial brewery that I know of using
that technique, so it must be a good thing. How about trying that out and
reporting back, Doc?

I decided to try batch sparging for the Maibock last Saturday. I wanted to
go for a little more malt flavor, which batch sparging is reputed to give
you. So I used Ken Schwartz's no sparge / batch sparge calculations
(http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/files/nbsparge.html) to work this out.
George's recipe was 11 lbs pilsner & 1.5 lbs Vienna for a 5 gallon, 1.071 OG
batch. 75% efficiency gives you this, but my system usually gets about 85%,
so I scaled the grain bill down to 9.2 lbs Pils & 1.25 lbs Vienna to match
my setup, then applied Ken's batch-sparge formulas to it and adjusted it for
a 12 gallon batch for a total of 29 lbs pilsner & 4 lbs Vienna. Everything
went just as planned, and my OG was 1.070.

The spreadsheet told me to up my grain bill by a factor of 1.21. I
approximated this in ProMash by setting my efficiency to 70% rather than 85%
(85/1.21). Thanks, Ken, for the work you've done on this. Now to wait for
the results!


Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
http://hbd.org/franklin





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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 11:55:23 -0500
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: Skunky triangles and cold side sparging

The recent resurgence of the HSA thread has been the most informative in
this long running debate.  I think the fact that Steve Alexander (I
believe) pointed out that HSA does not necessarily result in cardboard
flavors really helped clear things up (to me at least).  

Now Doc Pivo has started talking about cold sparging.  I see what he's
hinting at (but was afraid to say): sparge at cold temps and you
eliminate some of the potential for HSA/MBO.  I wonder if this would
make any difference.  If we mash and boil at cold temps we'll never have
to hear about HSA/MBO again.  Perhaps Aspergillus Oryzae fungus could be
used for conversion at room temperature, then cold water sparge and boil
in a vacuum.  No HSA worries. ;)

There has been a low level thread concerning skunky characteristics
being attributed to light struck yeast.  I believe that skunkiness in
beer is caused by higher frequency visible light and ultraviolet
reacting with hops and breaking down into the skunky component.  Yeast
has nothing to do with skunky beer.  I don't believe yeast is affected
by light.

Larry Bristol writes:
>triangle test ... 
I have seen this term used a few times, and I have to confess that I am
ignorant of its meaning.  

A triangle test is used when comparing two beers.  Three beers are
tasted.  Two of them are the same and one is different.  The tasters
must correctly identify which two are the same before their evaluation
is considered in the final analysis.

Brew On!

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[215, 264.5] Rennerian


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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 12:30:20 -0500
From: "Sweeney, David" <David at studentlife.tamu.edu>
Subject: Two Mentors - One Goal

Oh, the joy of having two mentors of such skill and stature.  I am so 
gratified to have mentors such as Steve A. and Doc Pivo.  Although 
they constantly correct and attempt to outdo each other, they are really 
opposite sides of the same coin - yin and yang, heaven and hec, art 
and science - both valid, but with little congruence.

I'm reminded of my two martial arts master's back in 1991 at the state 
black-belt finals.  Master Silveus comes over to me, as I sit with blood 
trickling out of my nose, and preps me for round two - "OK, come out 
in a back stance.  Bring him in close and use his height against him.  
Use back-kicks and side-kicks.  Don't bother with punches during this 
round.  Retreat to the left side and assume a front-left stance to 
defend.  Try the round-kick tornado-kick combination you've been 
working on.  You're down by 1.  Try to score 2 quickly then defend the 
rest of the round."

Then Master Kwak comes over.  I ask, "Do you have any advice?"  He 
replies, "Don't get hit."

David Sweeney
Adaptive Technology Services
Texas A&M University
david at studentlife.tamu.edu





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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 13:52:56 -0400
From: "phil sides jr" <phil at brewingnews.com>
Subject: Four Days Left, Don't Let It Slip By!

>From Stephen Marler, competition organizer:

For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have
been!'
John Greenleaf Whittier

It is Saturday, May 18.  You have just finished mowing the lawn and are
kicking back watching the NBA play-offs.  You open one of your home brews,
take a swig, sigh, and say "damn that's good, I should have entered it!"
But alas, it is too late.  At that same moment judges at the Spirit of Free
Beer are busily evaluating beers that were entered.  What might have been.
You could have been a contender.

You can avoid this situation.  You still have time.  Don't let it slip by.
Right now, go to the SoFB web site
(http://www.burp.org/events/sofb/2002/entryform.htm) and print out the
registration forms.  Fill them out.  Go to the copy machine and copy as many
as you need.  Do it, do it now!  Once you get home, pull out three bottles
of each of your home brew, or bottle some.  Attach the bottle label, pack
them into a box along with an entry form and a check.  Do it now, if you
wait, it will be too late.

Now what!  Well you have three options; you can mail it to SoFB 2002 c/o
Jay's Brewing Supplies, 12574 Garland Tree Court
Fairfax, VA 22033; you can take it to one of the many drop-off points in
Maryland and Virginia (see
http://www.burp.org/events/sofb/2002/faq.htm#dropoff for a list); or you can
bring them to the BURP meeting this Saturday (May 11) and drop them off
there.  If you want to come to the BURP meeting to drop-off your beers and
are not a member, contact Bob Kepler at kepler at burp.org
(mailto:kepler at burp.org) and he will send you directions to the meeting.

Your done.  You have entered your beers.  Now you can relax, enjoy your
beer, and wait for the prizes to roll in.  Speaking of prizes, here is a
list of some of the prizes we will be giving out and who donated them:

All About Beer  3 one year subscriptions
Belgique Gourmande      A $75 and a $50 gift certificate
Brewers Alley/Summit Station    Brew a winning beer plus bag of grain
Brewer's Art    Brew a winning beer plus certificate
Brickskeller    $50 gift certificate
Briess Malting Company  Two CBW extract kits
California Concentrate Company  Twelve cans of malt extract
Capitol City Brewing Company    Brew a winning beer
Crosby & Baker  $25,$15,$10 gift certificates
Deschutes Brewery       A sports shirt and a sweat shirt
DuClaw Brewing  Brewer for a day
Fordham Brewing Company         Brewing ingredients for one year
Frederick Brewing Co.   Beermats, tap handle, 2 t-shirts, 2 glasses
Gordon Biersch Brewing Co.      A dozen glasses
HopUnion USA, Inc.      Hops, 3 hats, and 3 t-shirts
Iron Hill Brewery       Three $25 gift certificates
Jay's Brewing Supplies  White Labs stuff and gift certificates
Koch's Koncepts 50' Koch's Kooler (immerison chiller)
Maryland Homebrew       A Bag of grain
Rick's Wine and Gourmet Gift certificate
Rock Bottom Brewery     Six $25 gift certificates, and a bag o' grain
Rogue Ales      Three t-shirts and a cookbook
Siebel Institute        Twelve hats
Sierra Nevada Brewing Co.       A Sierra Nevada mirror, 5 hats, and 5
t-shirts
Silesia Liquors Engraving the Best of Show Cup
Stewart's Brewing Company       Two $10 certificates
Victory Brewing Company A case of beer
White Labs, Inc.        Ten yeast certificates, a t-shirt, and 20 posters
Widmer Brothers A hat, and a t-shirt

Thanks for entering the 10 annual SoFB.

Phil Sides, Jr.
Silver Spring, MD



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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 16:01:08 -0400
From: grayling at provide.net
Subject: RE: Effect of sunlight on boiling wort

> From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com>
> Subject: RE: Effect of sunlight on boiling wort

> Sunlight will skunk wort because the exposed yeast cells
>  are damaged by UV
> rays.  Your boiling wort, however, will be just fine.

Parker may be correct about UV damaging yeast cells, but he
 is incorrect about the reaction in general.

Skunking is caused by the photodegradation of hop
 compopnents which gives rise to thiols ("skunky" sulfur
 molecules).  Dr. Forbes recently published a paper on this
 phenomena.  He used an analytical technique called Time
 Resolved Electron Paramagnetic Resonance Spectroscopy
 (TREPR) to study the reaction.  This paper was covered in
 the fall of last year in this forum.

Having said that, I partially cover the boil kettle when I
 am boiling out in direct sunlight (as I was last Saturday
 at Chris Frey's house for National Homebrew Day).  I don't
 know for certain whether this will totally protect me, but
 it can't hurt......see MBO/HSA thread!! ;-)

Cheers!

Jim
(21 miles, 89 degrees Rennerian)



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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 16:28:39 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: LOCAL POST: where's the good beer in NYC? 

Did you try Heartland?  There's one in Union Square, which I have been
to, and one on Times Square, which I haven't.  They had at least one
hoppy beer (the pale ale).  It was a bit coarse to my taste, but it
did have hops.

I was staying at the Washington Square Hotel.  Not a bad place for
$150/night (in Manhattan that's cheap. :-) Anyway, they had a little
lounge downstairs.  The poster in the elevator claimed it had a good
beer selection and "moderate prices".  The beer selection included
Jever, Hoegaarden Wit, Brooklyn Brewing's pale ale, Stoudt Golden
Lager, and a couple others I don't remember. (No megabrew on draft, at
least -- one bartender told me that sometimes late at night when
someone asked for a "Bud" she gave them Jever!)  The bottle selection
looked good, too.  I saw the bartender drinking Duvel from a Duvel
glass one night!  As for "moderate prices," I'm from the sticks of Ann
Arbor and I don't consider $5.50 a "moderate" price for a pint. :-)

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


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Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 20:06:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: Blueberry White

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I finally tapped my keg of Blueberry White. On a side note it is a very
good omen when you get a completly full glass of Belgian White and its the
very last glass in the keg. How perfect is that?

Anyway, I was a little distressed after transferring my white off the
blueberrys to the keg. It was extremely dry, fermenting down to 1.002,
unless i misread the hydrometer! A taste underwelmed me. I added 2
tablespoon of citric acid figuring that if it was dry some sour kick
couldnt hurt. I was right. Its got a nice "tang". Another tablespoon
couldnt hurt but i'll let other decide first.

The IG was 1.050 so the alcohol is there but well masked by the beer. The
only down side is the beer is murky and dark purple but more shocking is
the head looks like barney the dinosaur! I guess after 2-3 no one will
care.

I would like greater sweetness next time to balance the sour, would adding
dextrin be advised? I think I want to aim for a IG of 1.07-08 and a FG of
1.02-.03. Any comments on this thinking?



Steven St.Laurent	403forbidden.net	[580.2,181.4] Rennerian
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