---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Siebel Week: Homebrew oxidation (ensmingr)
  Re>American Beer Month Slogan Contest Entry (Ross Potter)
  Oops - Iodophor in Beer (UNABREWER1)
  I get letters, Assembly Required ("Dave Burley")
  Siebel Week - Repitching Yeast ("Fred L. Johnson")
  In search of Double Dragon Ale (Jebbly)
  "Good Eats" Homebrewing Episode ("John O'Connell")
  Re: American Beer Month Slogan Contest Entry (Todd Goodman)
  Siebel Week question ("Micah Millspaw")
  Siebel Week (Jeff Renner)
  Siebel Week: hop bitterness (jal)
  RE: Munich Dunkel attempt with 100% munich malt (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Re:  "Best" Examples ("Beer Phantom")
  Re: Munich Dunkel attempt with 100% munich malt (Jeff Renner)
  LOCAL POST: where's the good beer in NYC? - CORRECTION ("Bill Coleman")
  Hot water element connection enclosure method ("Dan Listermann")
  Re: Beer Engines with Corny kegs (Jeff Renner)
  Siebel Week: Yeast propagation (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Siebel Week (Aaron Robert Lyon)
  Re: HSA, MBO and maillard ("Steve Alexander")
  Grain Absorption Rates (Andrew Nix)
  RULES (BrewJohn4)
  Homebrew shops in SC (Wil)
  Beer in Frankfurt ("Vernon, Mark")
  ECForums.com [Please Read Me] ("BlackIntrepid")
  SS Hinges Available (Bob Sheck)


*
* 10th annual Spirit of Free Beer entry deadline is 5/11/02
* Details at http://www.burp.org/events/sofb/2002/
*
* 2002 Bay Area Brew Off entry deadline is 5/20/2002
* Details: http://www.draughtboard.org/babopage.htm
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* http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping
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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 01:18:27 -0400
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: Siebel Week: Homebrew oxidation

It has been said that homebrew oxidation is a common and serious
problem. Is this true? If so, what practical steps can
homebrewers take to avoid oxidation. Campden tablets? Ascorbic
Acid? Others?

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
(Thanks Gump/Siebel/Lallemand for your support)



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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 22:19:19 -0700
From: Ross Potter <BurningBrite at charter.net>
Subject: Re>American Beer Month Slogan Contest Entry

 >From: Tracy P. Hamilton
 >"Beer - It's What's For Dinner!"
 >Well, OK, maybe that won't raise the image of beer .

       "Brewing Beer Is Going With The Grain!!"

 ...ross



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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 06:05:54 EDT
From: UNABREWER1 at aol.com
Subject: Oops - Iodophor in Beer

Here's the situation. A friend of mine (really, it was a friend, not me) 
sanitized his carboy with approx. 2 oz Iodophor to 5 gallons of water. 
Siphoned it out, drained the rest, rinsed the racking cane and tubing, forgot 
to rinse carboy. Then he commenced siphoning 5 gallons of the best Salvator 
knock off into the carboy (we snuck a taste before siphoning). As I figure 
the Iodophor was diluted to around 1500ppm and after draining there could not 
have been more than 15 or 20 drops of the dilute solution left in the carboy, 
which would have been further diluted by the 5 gallons of Salivator. So the 
question I pose is, is there a poison concern, an off flavor concern, or 
should I just relax? I really hate to have to pour out what would otherwise 
be an awesome batch.

Thanks,
Tom Gentry
unabrewer1 at aol.com 


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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 07:16:34 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: I get letters, Assembly Required

Brewsters:

I get letters. The most recent one was a copy of a newspaper article from
Denmark in which a 30 year old fellow was having a mole removed from his
bottom and he passsed wind.  This flatulence attack ( no doubt brought on by
a few beers he must have had for lunch) caused his genitals to burst into
flame when the surgical spirits in which his genitals were soaked were
ignited by a spark from the electric knife used in the surgery.

 The patient said  "When I woke up my penis and scrotum were burning like
Hell" The Surgeon's comment ? "It was an unfortunte accident".

I don't want to think too much about this, but I can only hope the electric
knife wasn't the kind used to carve a turkey back in the 50s and 60s. So
much for socialized medicine.

- ----------------------
Steve, Sorry, the HB store in Hendersdonville, NC is called "Assembly
Required"
- ----------------------

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley






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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 07:17:08 -0400
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Siebel Week - Repitching Yeast

Rules of thumb abound (and vary) about how many times one can repitch yeast.
Opinions among brewers seem to vary depending upon the gravity of the
previous wort, the strain of yeast, the degree of flocculation of the
strain, etc.  There is also occasional mention of how many times a culture
of yeast (or mammalian cells) can be "passed", although I've rarely (if
ever) heard anything more for the definition of a "passage" than the act of
removing the culture from storage, growing it to some degree, and putting an
aliquot back into storage, with no explanation of why a cell would be
limited in the number of times it can undergo this.

I suspect that the more likely reason that yeast are typically disposed of
after X brews (you fill in the blank) is that the yeast eventually
accumulate objectionable levels of wild strains or bacteria.  Correct?  Or
is there a more fundamental reason that yeast can't be grown indefinitely?
So... 

1) If a yeast culture is maintained free from contaminating bacteria and
wild yeast, can the culture (and its characteristics) be maintained
indefinitely (or at least longer than for a half-dozen brews)?  If not, why
not?

2) If the answer to 1 is "No, because the yeast mutates", how do the major
yeast suppliers stay in business if their precious source is destined to
mutate?

3) If the definition of a "passage" is based on anything more than the act
of removing it from its storage container and putting it back, what happens
with each passage that would bring the culture closer to its "end"?

3) Finally, what are the practical ways of determining when a yeast has been
used (passaged) too many times?  I've heard that yeast "lose" their ability
to flocculate.  If so, why?  Some strains are slow to flocculate anyway and
never form more than a powdery sediment, so are those yeasts merely mutant
forms of the more flocculuant strains?
- -- 
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA



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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 07:57:35 -0400
From: Jebbly at aol.com
Subject: In search of Double Dragon Ale

Folks,

While on a trip to St. Louis a few years
ago I was at Dressel's Pub.  They serve a 
wonderfuld beer called Double Dragon Ale which
is brewed by Felinfoel Brewers in Wales.  Ever
since then I've been looking for it but can't 
seem to find it anywhere else.

Does any of you know other places that serve or
sell it around the country?

Thanks in advance.

Dave Grommons


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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 08:05:34 -0400
From: "John O'Connell" <oconn at mindspring.com>
Subject: "Good Eats" Homebrewing Episode

Dearest Collective,

Per Alton Brown Thursday night at his book signing (a very nice and funny 
guy live, if somewhat a know-it-all, much like me):

The "Amber Waves of Grain" homebrewing episode was pushed back to season 6 
(i.e. later on this Fall).  The reason he gave was that they wanted to get 
on site to a barley harvest for filming, and hopefully a hop harvest.

My guess is that the script was submitted to Food TV, approved and given an 
episode number, but the realities of agriculture and schedule got in the 
way of its original air date.

Which, of course, would not have mattered if it was about, say, broccoli.

At least not to most of us.

Back to lurk mode, I swear.

John O'Connell
Atlanta, GA (city of)

ps My wife offered my newly planted backyard hopyard for filming, but 
fortunately everyone decided she was just kidding.



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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 08:15:25 -0400
From: Todd Goodman <tgoodman at bonedaddy.net>
Subject: Re: American Beer Month Slogan Contest Entry

"Tracy P. Hamilton" <chem013 at uabdpo.dpo.uab.edu> writes:
>Beer - It's What's For Dinner!
>Well, OK, maybe that won't raise the image of beer .

It's better than "Beer - Not just for breakfast anymore!".  :-)

I personally like "Beer is good food" or "Beer - Liquid Bread."


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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 07:35:13 -0500
From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at silganmfg.com>
Subject: Siebel Week question

My question goes back to an old hbd thread (at least 10 years ago)
about yeast starters and rapid yeast growth. A number of people
were involved in trying different some methods for increasing the
volume of yeast in a short time. One of the annomolies noted from
these hbd experiments was that the water used to make solutions
for yeast feeding impacted the results of the experimenters at 
differing locations, using the same methods. The best results 
(yeast growth vs time) were obtained by hbders in agrarian areas 
using untreated well water. The effect was attributed to the high
content of nitrogenous materials often found in agraian water
supplies, and dubbed, 'the grave yard effect' (ironicly by G.Fix).
What would like to know is, has any 'real' research be done
along these lines and if so indentified the mechanism at work in
both the water and yeast, and a way to duplicate it?

Micah Millspaw - brewer at large
  


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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 08:36:50 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Siebel Week

Thanks, Rob, for arranging this again this year.

A question about pitching lager yeast.  Is it better to pitch at 
fermentation temperatures (9-12C) or at warmer temperatures, say 20C, 
and then chill?  What are the ramifications of each, and in the case 
of the latter, if it is a possibility, when should you chill to avoid 
off flavors?

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 07:47:17 -0500
From: jal at novia.net
Subject: Siebel Week: hop bitterness



Hopped wort should boil one hour to achieve the full (or nearly full) 
bitterness potential from the hops. 

My question: is the hour required for the alpha acids (and other bittering 
components) to be separated from the hop bits (blossoms or pellets) and 
released into the wort, or for the isomerization (?) of the alpha acids? If the 
hour is mostly for the isomerization, when are the alpha acids released? 

This question came up when the kettle boiled over and some first wort hops 
dissolved in the wort?

Thanks,

Jim Larsen
Omaha, NE

- --------------------------------------------------
Novia Web Mail Interface http://webmail.novia.net/



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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 08:52:19 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Munich Dunkel attempt with 100% munich malt

Leo Vitt comments about dunkels made with 100% munich malt.

I made my first Dunkel in February and used about 98% munich malt. A little
more than half of the malt bill was Malteries Franco-Belge dark Munich 17L.
The MFB light Munich is 7L. I really like the malt from MFB - I've used
their Pilsner, Vienna, Pale Ale, and Caramunich 60 malts. Does anyone know
of a mail order supplier who sells these in small quantities? I currently
buy full bags from North Country Malt (along with Thomas Fawcett British
malts), but would like to try more of their malts without buying a full bag.

Here's what I brewed:
Munich Dunkel Lager
12 gal batch
OG 1.049
FG 1.012
IBU 26
SRM 16
90 min boil

10 lbs Dark Munich
 9 lbs Light Munich
 8 oz  Chocolate
 4 oz  Hall. Hersbr. plug  2.5aa 90 min
 1 oz  Saaz          whole 2.8aa mash hopped
 1 oz  Saaz          plug  3.1aa 5 min
Wyeast 2308 Munich Lager yeast

Dough into 6 gals 170F water, settle at 155F. Stir in mash hops. Rest for 2
hrs.
90 minute boil, CF chilled. Ferment  at  50F 10 days, rack to secondary while
still active, then lager 5 weeks.

Don't give up, Leo - this one was pretty good - good enough to win 1st place
(cat 13) in the 1st round NHC Midwest this year!

I've done 5 or 6 decoctions over the last 5 years of all-grain brewing, and
I never did notice anything in those beers that validated the supposed
superiority of a decoction mash. However, I was using well-modified malt, so
it may be that a decoction with under-modified malt would produce superior
flavors. I decided that the extra time and effort didn't pay off, and no
longer do decoctions. The closest I come to it is a cereal mash.


Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
http://hbd.org/franklin




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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 08:22:53 -0500
From: "Beer Phantom" <beer_phantom at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:  "Best" Examples

Peter Garofalo writes:

"The very idea that there is a "best" example of any style assumes a greater 
degree of agreement than I have ever seen, especially in such a subjective 
arena. What is my "best" says nothing about what is yours, nor should it. 
It's sort of like me asking someone else what I should like."

Peter, don't competition judges do this with every flight of beer?  Isn't 
every beer tasted and then judged to a standard?  We can judge homebrew to a 
standard but not commercial beer?

I was actually intrigued by Dennis' original question because it asked the 
homebrewers to judge commercial brews just like homebrew.  I have several 
commercial favorites that I think are fantastic examples of the classic 
styles that should easily score into the 40's, however, after receiving and 
reading some incredulous comments and scores from competitions, I have the 
opinion that commercial beers would not fair very well if judged in a 
similar manner.  And this is not because the homebrew is better.  It is my 
opinion that balance and subtlety are gone from judging and have been 
replaced by the "bigger is better/more is better" attitude.

Of course there is only one way to find out if I'm right.  Sneak a "best 
example" commercial beer into a flight at a competition and see how it does. 
  In fact, shouldn't it be standard practice to do this to see where the 
tastes of the judges are trending?  Maybe even track the same commercial 
beer in competitions throughout the country to see if the judging is 
consistent.  Personally, I would love to see the results.

Cowering in anonymity,

The Beer Phantom









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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 09:16:56 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Munich Dunkel attempt with 100% munich malt

LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>, who forgets to include his real name and 
location (but I know he's Leo Vitt in Rochester MN), writes that he 
brewed an all Munich triple decocted Dunkel with 10 lbs Weissheimer 
munich malt but was disappointed with the outcome

>There beer is now ready and I decided this is not a dunkel.
>The color appearance is close to a vienna lager.  The taste lacks
>the sweetness I would expect.
>
>I believe it needs a dark crystal added - maybe in the form of caramunich.

There are darker Munich malts that work well, IMO, at 100%.  I brewed 
one this fall (I always get a craving for a Dunkel when the leaves 
turn, thankfully a ways away from now!) using 100% Durst Dark Munich 
malt (40EBC, or about 20L).  This came out the perfect color and was 
nice and malty.  It was not, however, particularly sweet, at least 
not the way crystal malt is, but it had a malty sweetness.  I liked 
it this way.   Your 70% attenuation (1.050 => 1.015, or 70%), which 
is typical of Munich malt.

The excellent article in Brewing Techniques on Bavarian Dunkels 
(sadly, not on line) suggests a small amount of color malt.  I'd 
guess that the debittered chocolate such as Carafa II, would work 
well for adding color, but I think the darker Munich is the way to go.

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 09:30:16 -0400
From: "Bill Coleman" <malty.dog at verizon.net>
Subject: LOCAL POST: where's the good beer in NYC? - CORRECTION

Oops!! I made a typo. The address of that web page is:

http://hbd.org/mbas/beer.html

It's my own website---how embarassing....

Please note that most of the info on that website is more accurate than my
last post...

Bill Coleman
malty.dog at verizon.net
http://hbd.org/mbas

>   LOCAL POST: where's the good beer in NYC? ("Bill Coleman")
>> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 07:18:24 -0400
> From: "Bill Coleman" <malty.dog at verizon.net>
> Subject:  LOCAL POST: where's the good beer in NYC?
>
> There's a pretty extensive list of good bars, including usually recent
> tap lists,
> at http://hbd.orb/mbas/beer.html - The Beer Alert Page.
>
> Bill Coleman
> malty.dog at verizon.net
> http://hbd.org/mbas




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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 10:05:14 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Hot water element connection enclosure method

I am using a pair of these for a kettle and am not satisfied with my
enclosure method ( wrap with electrical tape).  Any suggestions?

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com






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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 10:30:31 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Beer Engines with Corny kegs

Rick Seibt <ale_brewer at yahoo.com> writes from Mentor, OH, that he is 
another lucky man with a wife that indulges him:

>My wonderful wife recently suprised me with a Angram
>beer engine for my birthday
<snip>

>I have some questions related to dispense from a Corny keg.
>
>  -What level (vols) of C02 do you prime to when using a
>swan neck & sparkler.

I don't prime (real ale heresy!).  Instead I rack my finished ale 
from one corney with no sediment to another purged corney (I fill 
with water, then push it out with CO2, then push the ale with CO2 
while venting the receiving keg).  Then I condition with CO2, about 
3-4 psi.  I might start higher, but that seems to give the requisite 
1 volume CO2 at cellar temperature.  This is more reproducible, too, 
since it doesn't depend on the amount of dissolved CO2 before priming.

Another advantage is that I can move the keg without stirring up 
sediment.  As a matter of fact, I'm taking a 3 gallon Corney and the 
beer engine to a party tomorrow.

I can also dispense with gas when I don't want to hook up the beer 
engine (which I only use for parties).  When I do this, it is a 
little fizzier than I want, so I use a pocket beer engine (5-10 cc 
syringe) to drop the carbonation a little and raise a bit of a foam 
collar.

BTW, I find that I don't like the sparkler.  It seems to take too 
much conditioning out and maybe knock out some hops aroma as well.  A 
good vigorous pull on the handle creates enough turbulence in the 
pint glass to raise sufficient head.

>  -How much should I cut from the diptube?

Not necessary with this technique.  Actually, it isn't necessary if 
you prime, either.  The first pint or two will be cloudy, but after 
that they are clear.

>  -Which fining agents work best and when do you add
>them?

If necessary (Crisp Maris Otter seems to need this help), I use 
gelatin.  I heat a 1/4 ounce packet in cold water in the microwave 
until clear, then add some beer as I'm racking into either an 
intermediate corney or a carboy secondary (as long as fermentation is 
finished).  The carboy is fun because you can watch it settle top 
down by the hour.

>  -Any other dispensing tips?

If you aren't going to empty the keg in a couple of days, a cask 
breather is nice.  This is a demand valve that bleeds CO2 in at 
essentially zero pressure.  If you connect gas to the keg at any 
pressure at all, it pushed the beer right through the pump.

I have an inexpensive (8 UKP) plastic one that seems to work fine. 
It consists of two small cylinders about 1" long with tiny BB check 
valves.  It is designed to fit in place of the spile.  A picture 
would work better, but my digital camera is on the fritz.  An English 
friend got it for me.  You can also get much more expensive metal 
ones.  Brewin' Beagle used to carry real ale supplies 
http://www.brewinbeagle.com/ , but they don't have an online catelog. 
I hope they still are selling supplies.  My old price list (2000) has 
a breather kit for $60.

I highly recommend the CAMRA book "Cellarmanship" by Ivor Clissold. 
BB carried it in 2000 for $12.75.

Have fun with this.  BTW, supposedly English barmaids develope their 
buxom figures by pulling on hand pump handles.  If you work things 
right, you ought to be able to combine this fact with Dave Burley's 
suggestion for long life!

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note my new address***

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 10:41:10 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: Siebel Week: Yeast propagation

First, thanks to you all for fielding our questions. 

I've been yeast ranching for about 4 years now, and
have recently modified my process to make it easier.
I have acquired a stir plate, and made up a quantity
of 10 ml tubes with agar, and a like number with 4
ml wort. The agar was made using 350 ml water, 10 gr
DME, 5 gr Agar flakes, and 1 gr Yeast Nutrient. All
were autoclaved. I have 20 strains on slant, and here
is my process to grow enough yeast for 10 gallons of
wort:

Evening 1:
  Agitate tube containing 4 ml wort to aerate. Add to
  the agar slant containing the yeast. Allow to grow
  2 days.
Evening 3:
  Boil 4 oz DME and 1 liter water in a 2L flask for
  20 minutes, chill in sink. I prepare a work space
  by suspending a 2 x 2 piece of cardboard about 18"
  above a countertop, and misting the area with
  isopropyl alcohol. Then I dip a flamed inoculation
  loop into the slant and inoculate a new slant. Pour
  contents of slant with yeast into the flask. Place
  on stir plate at highest setting and run
  continuously.
Evening 5:
  Refrigerate flask
Morning 6 (brewday):
  Make up another liter of wort as above, or use wort
  previously pressure canned for this purpose. Decant
  most of the liquid from the culture and add the
  fresh wort. Place on stir plate just long enough to
  mix well. Pitch into fermenters about 6 hours later.

For lagers, repeat day 3 & 5 to increase quantity of
yeast.

I grow the inoculated slant for about 3-6 days at room
temp until a good layer of yeast is visible, then
refrigerate for future use. I figure that this
qualifies as 'reculturing' the slant to make it good
for another 6 months. Every 6 months I reculture the
slants that weren't used the last 6 months.

I don't perceive any negative affects since I changed
my process, and generally make pretty decent beer, but
I still have a few questions:

1. Does the fact that I use a stir plate negate the
drawbacks of stepping up from 4 ml to 1000 ml? 

2. Does the process of decanting the liquid and
adding fresh wort remove the chances of harming my
beer by adding oxidized starter wort? Is this 
necessary?

3. Can I extend the time for reculturing past 6
months? How long until there is danger of mutation?

4. Am I introducing any unforeseen factors that may
have a negative impact on my beer?

5. I have had trouble retaining the banana/clove
characteristics of the Weihenstephan weizen yeast
from a slant. Is this normal? If not, what might I
be doing wrong?

6. I've found this to be much easier and less time-consuming
than the normal process of stepping up thru 10x increases.
What is your overall opinion of this process?

Thanks again for taking the time to answer our questions.

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
http://hbd.org/franklin



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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 10:46:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Aaron Robert Lyon <lyona at umich.edu>
Subject: Siebel Week

I was discussing how I mash (in a Rubbermaid cooler) with a coworker and
she expressed concern about what sort of compounds could be leeched into
the final beer from the plastic of the mash tun.  According to her, even
those plastics that claim to be "safe" for heating can still contribute
harmful elements.  The harmful element may have been some sort of
estrogen, but was definitely something that could cause/contribute to the
formation of cancerous cells.  Any ideas?  I received no replies when I
originally posted this to the HBD.  Thanks!

 -Aaron

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Lyon  -  homebrewer / research assist / Olympic rocket-sled champion
*[4.13, 118] Apparent Rennerian*

"Give me a woman who truly loves beer, and I will conquer the world."
	-Kaiser Wilhelm II (1859-1941)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------





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Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:04:11 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: HSA, MBO and maillard

Paul Kensler asks ...

>[...] Steve Alexander's comment [...]
> "Sulphites prevent the Maillard processes and phenolic
> oxidation that lead to wort darkening"
>
> Does this include the Maillard reactions that occur
> during a decoction mash?
>
> Like many brewers, I treat my tap water with a crushed
> campden tablet - now I'm wondering if my occasional
> decoction mashes have been a complete waste of time

Decoction may be a waste of time w/ or w/o sulfites.  Yes, sulfite additions
prevent the same Maillard processes which would otherwise occur during
decoction, boil and other hot wort treatment, but the issue is a bit
overblown.      Maillard processes operate at vastly higher rates under
conditions of high heat (well above the boiling point) and low moisture
(less than in a decoct.).    You get a *lot* more Maillard products from the
maltsters kiln than from the longest most intense decoction imaginable.
OTOH the specific ratios of Maillard products are effected by the pH, and
the temperature - so you may get a little different mix of Maillard products
from the decoction than from the maltster.  No one can say decoction doesn't
make any difference, but I think I can get about the same impact from a
little melanoidin or munich malt addition (and without the phenolic
oxidation).   Try it and see if you don't agree.

I can't find a good reference but it seems likely that sulfites may also
reduce the amount caramelization that takes place.  Again - unless you are
making a style that requires intense caramelization this is easily
compensated by use of caramel/crystal malts.

You'll be shocked at how bright your pils comes out with sulfites, but you
may be surprised at how little the decoctions darken wort too.

 -S



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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 11:17:03 -0400
From: Andrew Nix <anix at vt.edu>
Subject: Grain Absorption Rates

I wanted to see what folks were using as an absorption rate for water lost 
in the mash.  I typically heat an extra gallon or so more than I need to 
store in my HLT for sparging, but on my last batch I discovered this was 
BARELY enough to get the pre-boil volume I wanted.

I checked out Promash (which is what I formulate my recipes in) and they 
use 0.12 gallons of water loss per pound of grains.  Daniels' DGB uses a 
value of 0.20 gallons per lb of grain.  For a 12 gallon batch of beer which 
uses say 20 pounds of grain, Promash says the grain bed will absorb 2.4 
gallons, while Daniels' calcs would give 4 gallons lost.

Just curious to see what is more accurate in the brewing experiences of 
folks on the HBD.  I always thought, "OK, Promash says I need 11 gallons of 
sparge water, so I'll heat 12 or more to be safe."  Seems that "12 or more" 
may be JUST ENOUGH to sparge out.

Drewmeister
Andrew Nix
Department of Mechanical Engineering
Virginia Tech
anix at vt.edu
http://www.vt.edu:10021/A/anix



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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 11:42:31 -0400
From: BrewJohn4 at netscape.net
Subject: RULES

Rob Moline writes:

>>     I know that there may be some that will object to this stipulation of
future publication rights of questions submitted to the HBD, typically a "No
Further Publication" Zone.
  But there you have it....these are the RULES. If you object, simply
don't avail yourself of the countless tens of thousands of dollars of time,
energy and invested experience of the following pool of talent.....and don't
submit a question.

ME: Ok, I won't.  I don't have any problem following some stipulations.
But, I hate having to follow "RULES" that are laid out to control the
teaming, ignorant masses.

>>     This event and effort consolidates in the HBD the primary greatness
that beats beneath the surface of the brewing industry...the generosity that
passes the tricks and traps of the trade to others within it. Countless
brewers before us, and I am sure, after us, have and will benefit from
experiences such as this.
  We are blessed as brewers to have this opportunity.... please enjoy it
in the spirit demonstrated by those that give it to us.....these brilliant
>>brewers....

ME: Am I supposed to feel honored?  Should I bow down and chant 'we're not
worthy, we're not worthy'?  It sounds like this is some painful chore.  
If it is, then don't do it.  I don't care either way.  If a (supposed) 
master brewer is willing and happy to share their knowledge, I'm happy to
listen and even ask a question.   However, if it's going to be laid out
as though the gods are lowering themselves to the unwashed minions, I 
don't want any part of it, nor do I think this kind of thing should be
taking up space on the HBD.  To go a bit over the line I'll say that I
 don't really see how a bunch of megaswill-profit-is-everything brewers
have anything in common with me.


I will now put on my flame suit and see what others think.

John Bowman
Chicago Area




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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 15:54:32 GMT
From: Wil at thebeermanstore.com
Subject: Homebrew shops in SC

I understand that the HBD is not the place to advertise BUT....
>Being just down the road from Greenville, SC in Anderson, SC , I agree with
>Steve we need a really good HB store in the area.. There is a small store in
>Pendleton, SC ( Vine and Barrel) not far from me and one in Columbia, SC. A
>few in Georgia within an hour or two, one in Hendersonville, NC, (Batteries
>Not Included - I think) but not much else.  Anyone?

I would like to throw my hat in the ring and say don't forget the
"Beer Man" in Mt Pleasant SC across the river from the Holy City
(Charleston S.C.) formally Happy Dog Brewing. We are in our 6th year
with one of those years in our new location at 607 Johnnie Dodds Blvd.
We carry a full line of Home brew supplies as well as have one of the
largest beer selections in the area  (available in SC=limited).
I do understand this is pretty far from Greenville and Anderson but I
could use the support.
Wil Kolb
The Beer Man
Plaza at East Cooper
607 B Johnnie Dodds Blvd
Mt. Pleasant SC 29464
843-971-0805
Fax 843-971-3084

Wil at thebeermanstore.com
www.maltydog.com
www.thebeermanstore.com

God bless America!


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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 13:04:36 -0500
From: "Vernon, Mark" <mark.vernon at pioneer.com>
Subject: Beer in Frankfurt

Going to be in Frankfurt for a Saturday first week of June and need to know
where to find the best beer. Any breweries to tour?

Mark Vernon, MCSE, MCT

"If we all did the things we are capable of doing, we would literally
astound ourselves"
- -- Thomas Edison



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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 19:03:50 -0400
From: "BlackIntrepid" <MassMail at ecforums.com>
Subject: ECForums.com [Please Read Me]

Hello, my Name is BlackIntrepid

I'm a hacker. Yes, a Hacker. I'll make this message short and to the point.
I just opened a new website, called ECForums.com it's at www.ecforums.com

We're a forum about, yes, hackers. Don't be afraid of the subject, their
are very distinct categories of hackers, White hat, or hackers that only
do good, and help people out, and Black hat, hackers that purposely try to
destroy servers and hurt the internet. Although, some people think that
Hackers Cannot do good, wouldn't you rather have someone from our White
hat community hack into the FBI's server, and then alert them about it, so
a black hat hacker couldn't get in the same way? This is what we do.
Anyway, we need a couple more people at our site to visit our forums. If
you want to learn to be a hacker, or just want to learn more about the
computer, visit out "N00bi3 forums" n00bi3 stands for Newbie, which is
someone who is new, or doesn't know much about the computer. Soon we hope
to have a complete tutorial, on what to learn and study, if your new to
the computer, or want to be a hacker. Please feel free to come visit, and
Register on our Forums!

 -ECForums.com Staff

BTW (BY the way), to get straight to our forums, just type this in your
browser: Http://www.ecforums.com/forums/


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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 23:04:57 -0400
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: SS Hinges Available

A few months back I offered SS Screen and punched metal for the 
collective. Today, whilst trolling through my local salvage store, I
found Stainless Steel hinges- perfect for fitting together mash-screen
so you can fold it for inserting into the tun- or whatever.

There are 2 styles: 

1. Each flap is 1 inch wide (total width 2 inches) with 
NO holes in them (perfect for tack-welding or drill your own).
These are loose-pin: that is, you can pull the pin out to separate the
pieces.

2. Each flap is 1.5 inch wide (total width 3 inches) with one side having
two 10-24 threaded holes, the other side having NO holes. The pin
is staked (NOT removable).

I have no clue what these things are worth, but I pay $3.00 each for them.
If you want some, I'll pass them on at the same price plus whatever the 
USPS charges me for mailing them to you.

Please contact me off-list at bsheck at skantech.net 
I have pictures of these if you want to look at them.

There is still plenty of SS fine-mesh screen available too. Also the 
SS punched (perfect for mash-tun false bottoms). 

(Remember, the more I make, the more I can donate to the HBD Server fund-
I am not doing this for a business, just to cover my costs and help out
the HBD server fund)

Bob Sheck // DEA - Down East Alers - Greenville, NC
bsheck at skantech.net // [583.2,140.6] Apparent Rennerian
Home Brewing since 1993 // bsheck at skantech.net //



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