---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  RE:oops- iodophor in beer ("Parker Dutro")
  RIMS temperature controller ("Lou King")
  Fix and Fix Analysis...(question re malt) (leavitdg)
  cooling and DMS ("Dr. Pivo")
  RE: Iodophor in Beer ("Steve Jones")
  SC Area HB Stores ("H. Dowda")
  Re: Beer Engines (Bill Wible)
  Competition, scoring, commercial beers (Althelion)
  Dark munich malt (LJ Vitt)
  FW: Cold break ("Mark A. Evans")
  Samuel Adams cap ("Fred L. Johnson")
  Kansas City Beer (Nathan Kanous)
  Siebel Week: lactobacilus (Jeff & Ellen)
  Siebel Week (craftbrewer)
  Seibel Week ("Betty and Mike Kilian")
  Siebel Week ("Brad Lifford")
  Siebel week-Bacteria Staining (Gary M Chumney)
  Further info on Stainless Hardware (Bob Sheck)


*
* 2002 Bay Area Brew Off entry deadline is 5/20/2002
* Details: http://www.draughtboard.org/babopage.htm
*
* Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! 
* http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 22:56:00 -0700
From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: RE:oops- iodophor in beer

The beer will be fine.  Please don't do anything as dramatic as to pour it
out.  Unless it's so grotesquely obvious that a batch has spoiled, it's
always best to bottle or keg it and try it to see how it turns out.
Iodophor is supposed to be a no-rinse sanitizer.  1 tablespoon to five
gallons cold water for two to five minute contact time.  Any longer and it's
just, longer.  I've used it since I started brewing, and just recently did I
begin rinsing with preboiled water, but only because I don't have the means
to hang it to air dry.

Parker Dutro



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 03:55:41 -0400
From: "Lou King" <lking at pobox.com>
Subject: RIMS temperature controller

Has anyone used the 'Brewers Edge Controller II' (available for instance
from Williams Brewing) for RIMS temperature control?

http://www.williamsbrewing.com/AB1605000/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Product_ID=
183&CATID=12

Does anyone have an opinion on how well this would work?  Any
suggestions on how to place the temperature probe or type of heating
element?  Is 12 amps enough?

Lou King
Ijamsville, MD



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 06:18:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Fix and Fix Analysis...(question re malt)

In re-reading Fix and Fix (Analysis of Brewing Techniques)...I find
that I am confused by a differentiation that they make (p9) between
"green malt" and "regular malt".

In the section entitled "Roasted Malt", after describing the important 
flavor role that roasted malt plays in determining the final flavor
of the beer,...and stating that the market is flooded with different 
trade names, they suggest a differentiation based upon "two ways in
which they are produced".

"Group 1" they call "green malt" ... calling it "germinated but not
dried",

while "Group 2" they call "regular malt" describing it as "germinated 
and dried"

They then describe Maillard products, ...some of the chemical stuff
from Fix's Principles...,

then they state that "lightly roasted malts have a sweet toffee/
carmel taste" while "highly roasted malts have a burnt taste"

In group 1 they include: US light (carapils), European light, Crystal 
(30-40L, and 70-80L), as well as dark crystal (100-160L)

In group 2 they include: Amber, Chocolate, and Black malt.

They point out the limited shelf life of roasted malt, 'particulary
crystal and carmel malt'...

OK here is the question:  Why do they refer to Group 1 as 
"germinated but not dried"? and group 2 as "germinated and
dried"?

Do they not really mean [for group1] germinated and lightly kilned,
and [for group 2] germinated and more heavily kilned?

I mean both are dried, but at different temperatures, right?

I really appreciate the work that George and Laurie have put into 
this and his other work/s,...but am confused over this point.

 ...Darrell



















 


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 13:37:24 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: cooling and DMS

Dave Burley asks:


> So. Do we have any evidence that long slow cooling with the lid on ( e.g. in
> a deep sink) causes the beer to have a higher DMS content or is this just a
> mommily ( hi Jack) ?
>
I recall when Jack Schmiding first posted that he had begun cooling "au
naturalle" with the lid on overnight with no difference whatsoever.

As is my want, I thought this was worth testing.  Particularly since my
experience with Jack's previous postings were that they were emminently
practically oriented, and he had a long previous history of brewing,
that there could possibly be some basis to it.

I had previously been under the impression that the first 30C were of
importance, at least in terms of cold break, and perhaps in terms of
flavour as a result (total N excess, or possibilities of what is known
as "yeast bite").

As always, when I want to check these thing out, I did a "parallel brew"
that is, took the exact same wort and took it down two separate paths.

In this case it was quite simple.  Half the wort was run through a
counter flow cooler, and the other left in the kettle with the lid on
over night.

They were fermented side by side and "triangled" at maturity.

In this case the difference was "significant", that is, there was enough
tasters that could tell the difference between the two, that it
shouldn't be considered "just chance".

My personal impression (no degree of validity here!) is that there was
no perceptible level of DMS resultant.

The difference in fact was to me quite obvious.

I am quite fond of late addition hops, and these resultant highly
volatile products simply left the scene in the wort that stayed warm so
long.

In short, I had introduced a "confounder", confound it.

In retrospect  ( and should anybody else like to examine this in a
somewhat rigid manner.... I've learned not to hold my breath waiting for
someone to do other than write an opinionate about such matters), I
would suggest that you use no late additions whatsoever, and then
perhaps dry hop the two resultant cooled worts.

Why is it we always think of these things too late?

Sometimes my hindsight is just dandy......in fact I think I see a hind
right now.

Dr. Pivo





Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 07:51:00 -0400
From: "Steve Jones" <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: RE: Iodophor in Beer

Tom the Unabrewer asks if his 'friend' ruined his beer with iodophor.

I think not. Here is an interesting article on just this thing:
http://www.bayareamashers.org/iodophor.htm

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
stjones1 at chartertn.net
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 05:55:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: SC Area HB Stores

Liquid Hobby, formerly Bet-Mar, is in Columbia and is
on-line at http://www.liquidhobby.com and has basic
supplies ready for prompt shipment.

In the Charlotte area is Homebrew Adventures.  A full
service shop with good delivery via UPS.
http://www.homebrew.com

Both shops are supporters of the Palmetto State
Brewers Open (IV coming in October)



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 10:23:19 -0400
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: Beer Engines

I found a good website for a place in PA that deals
with everything you need for real cask ale, firkins,
beer engines and parts, they even have real english
nonick pint glasses and pub table games:

http://www.ukbrewing.com

no affilliation, satisified customer, I bought from them
once or twice.  They have some of the coolest stuff I've
seen, including real reconditioned clamp on beer engines
from about $265.

Bill



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 10:46:07 EDT
From: Althelion at aol.com
Subject: Competition, scoring, commercial beers

I often wonder why there seems to be a veil of secrecy surrounding scoring in 
competitions. For instance, why are winning and placing scores never 
mentioned? I think it would provide a valuable context for all the brewers 
who entered by displaying how close they were from the top. I remember last 
year when I entered the Drunk Monk Challenge, they provided information 
regarding the range of scores, highest, lowest, total entries, etc. I found 
this information helpful because it gave me an idea about the level of 
competition that I was up against (top shelf quality!).

As for commercial beers, here's an idea for Zymurgy, Brew Your Own, et al.: 
An article which, using BJCP standards, evaluates the top 20 - 50 commercial 
beers using the same scoring sheet format that are used in homebrew 
competitions. I personally, would really enjoy the various category comments 
on such beers as Busch, Michelob, and Bud.

Al Pearlstein
Commerce Township, Michigan


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 08:07:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Dark munich malt


Both Steve Jones and Jeff Renner both tell of their successes 
using dark munich malt in munich dunkels.

Where are you finding dark munich malt?
Steve mentions North Country Malt -- How do I find them?

I'm trying to remember to keep giving my name and location.

Leo Vitt
Rochester, MN

=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 13:34:42 -0400
From: "Mark A. Evans" <markaevans at mindspring.com>
Subject: FW: Cold break

Peter and Bill wondered:

>>Peter...Does A-B take steps to remove cold break after wort leaves the
>>counterflow chiller and prior to pitching yeast?

>Sorry, I don't know, though I suspect this is true. Maybe some of our
>friends in St. Louis have some contacts and could find out.

First of all - I'm no expert. I speak as an individual with an interest in
home
brewing not as a representative of AB.

The answer:
It's called a Cold Wort Settler. The Wort sits here for a little while and
is
then decanted to an Alpha (Primary) Fermentation Vessel. Some, but not all,
of
the cold break is removed. As you all know, there's yeast nutrients in the
cold
break.

In Home brewing, those who use a counterflow chiller could do something
similar
if you want to fuss with an additional transfer. You could experiment by
comparing your results when altering the amount of cold break transferred if
all
other things remain the same.


ME





Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 13:38:45 -0400
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Samuel Adams cap

I found a Samuel Adams bottle cap that has inside it the words,
"International  Award Winner, Rio De Janero GOLD 1998.  Can anyone tell me
if this was some type of contest run by the Boston Beer Company or some
distributer?  Boston Beer Company won't respond to my query.
- -- 
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 15:45:33 -0700
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Kansas City Beer

Howdy,
I'm again heading for Kansas City this July.  July 12 to 17th.  Last time I 
was there I didn't dig up much by way of beer (too busy).  This time I hope 
to spend more time.   What's in the Kansas City area for beer?  Lawrence 
Kansas?  Warrensburg Missouri?  TIA.
nathan in madison, wi



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 17:34:02 -0400
From: Jeff & Ellen <JeffNGladish at ij.net>
Subject: Siebel Week: lactobacilus

I'm trying to perfect, or at least improve my technique for fermenting a 
Berlinner Weisse.  In three attempts over the past three years, I've added 
the bacteria to warm wort a day or two before cooling and pitching the ale 
yeast, added the ale yeast a day or two before the bacteria, and added a 
mixed culture of yeast and lactobacillus at pitching time.  I've talked to 
brewers who have intentionally soured the wort before boiling and then 
pitched ale yeast after cooling and to others who have soured the mash.

My question is which is the most stable way to achieve a clean sourness in 
the shortest amount of fermenting time?  Will the ale yeast be able to work 
in wort with a pH as low as it must be when it is as sour as I want?  Am I 
doomed to wait months for a milky film to appear on my beer before it's 
done?

What is the best way to build up a culture of lactobacillus delbruckii?  Or 
is this step necessary?

All three of my Berlinner Weisse beers have tasted very good and have done 
extremely well for me in competitions, but I'd really like to streamline 
the process.  Thanks for your insight.

Jeff Gladish, Tampa, FL



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 08:50:31 +1000
From: craftbrewer <craftbrewer at telstra.com>
Subject: Siebel Week

G'Day All

Well the question from a mad North Queenslander

FERMENTATION NUTRIENTS

I have been researching various yeast nutrient suppliments and its 
corresponding effect on fermentation over the years and there is no 
doubt that additional supplimentation of yeast nutrition results in 
improved fermentation performance in general.

But there can be problems as well. The problems I have read and 
experienced first hand include the increased production of medium 
chained fatty acids, increased acetaldehyde, more esters and higher 
alcohols. Some of these will give as you are aware very negative 
flavour impacts on your beer. I myself have experienced a racid 
flavour from overdosing a wort with zinc.

There are three broad ways most craftbrewers use to add yeast nutrients
1. Adding specific nutrient(s) - mainly zinc on a specific need basis
2. Adding yeast extract of some sort - say dried yeast in the boil
3. Adding pre-package yeast nutrients - N, P compounds  at  micronutrient

While I can find plenty of evidence on the benefits of yeast nutrient 
addition, research on the negative impact on these additions, 
especially potential flavour inpacts, is very scare. What research I 
do find is at the "high to very high" end of nutrient addition, 
especially with the use of zinc. 

The evidence shows a linear relationship between say zinc addition and 
off flavour compounds. Basically the more you add, the more you get. 
But I cant find any research on if that linear relationship extends 
back to the micro - addition range. One possibility is there may well 
be an expoential curve at these ranges, where there is a threshold 
limit where the off flavour compounds start to go into the linear 
relationship. (similar to the growth curve of most organisms).

I myself have been getting good results with the following levels of 
addition.
1. a packet of dried yeast per 18 litre batch in the boil 10 minutes 
from strike
2. 0.2 mg Zn /Litre at strike (in the form of dilutes Zn salts).

I believe I am with these additions achieving optimum levels (as 
opposed to good levels)of all the nutrients necessary for good yeast 
performance. Nutrients like FANs, Amino acids, Vitamins and 
Micronutrients like Zn and Mn. 

Still I would like to know more about off flavour production, even at 
these relative low concentrations. The producer of Servomyces has 
produced there own data, but I would like more independant advice. I 
found servomyces works, and works well, but I have also found my own 
formular for yeast nutrient additions gives the same results.

My Questions are
1. What is the latest research into yeast nutrition, especially Zinc
2. Has there been any research at these lower levels of additions
3. What is Siebels position on the addition of yeast nutrients
4. What would they recommend are good combinations and levels of 
nutrients that should be added to a "typical" wort.
5. Many claim yeast nutrients do not increase yeast numbers but only 
increase yeast performance. Yet I find unscientifically that they seem 
to increase my yeast mass. Which is true.
6. Finally what is the mechanism that makes this so effective. What 
critcal enzyme, or chemical reaction, or whatever, that is affected by 
these additions

Shout
Graham Sanders

 
 



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 12:01:22 -0500
From: "Betty and Mike Kilian" <bkilian1 at mindspring.com>
Subject: Seibel Week

I there a preferred method for introducing yeast into the cooled wort?  Is
it preferable to pitch the whole mass into the fermentor or introduce
it slowly inline?  If it is introduced inline, would the process work better
closer or further downline from the fermentor?  Thanks for this great
opportunity!

Mike Kilian



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 15:17:49 -0400
From: "Brad Lifford" <blifford at mail.timesnews.net>
Subject: Siebel Week

First, thanks for answering our questions.

Here's mine: I'm planning a Bohemian Pils and am curious about the wisdom of
racking off the trub into another vessel prior to yeast pitching, to achieve
greater clarity. A friend of mine brews very good lagers with excellent
clarity and, as far as I know, has never bothered
with this extra step. But I've read more than one lager expert who suggests
racking from the trub (Noonan is one, I think) into another primary.
So: Should I bother? I know some of the trub I would rack from can aid
fermentation, so if I do rack to a second primary what is the chance that
fermenation will be hindered? Do the positives of racking from the trub
before pitching outweight any potential negatives?

Thanks,
Brad Lifford
Kingsport, TN



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 20:17:11 -0400
From: Gary M Chumney <garychumney at juno.com>
Subject: Siebel week-Bacteria Staining

        I have a bacteria staining kit with the following solutions:
Carbol Fuschin
Methylene Blue
Crystal Violet-Ammonium Oxalate
Crystal Violet
Menthylene Blue with Alcohol
Carbol Red

I know that one of the Menthylene Blue is for determining yeast viability
and which one I don't know yet.  As far as the other stains are concerned
which bacteria do they show in a test on a wort or beer?  

Thanks 

Gary Chumney

Brewing in Knoxville, TN



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 22:44:42 -0400
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: Further info on Stainless Hardware

Due to the unprecedented demand for info, I put up this 
web page that should answer a lot of questions about the
stainless steel stuff I have found, and that I feel will be a benefit 
to the collective~

http://www.homestead.com/bsheck/files/brew_Hardware.htm

Bob Sheck // DEA - Down East Alers - Greenville, NC
bsheck at skantech.net // [583.2,140.6] Apparent Rennerian
Home Brewing since 1993 // bsheck at skantech.net //



Return to table of contents

---