---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Siebel Week (Troy Hager)
  another Question (Fix and Fix) re: DMS (Darrell_Leavitt/SUNY)
  Siebel Week (Tim McManus)
  Re: Practical Thermo question (stencil)
  Convoluted / finned copper tube source? ("Drew Avis")
  Siebel Week (Troy Hager)
  david croft extract imperial stout ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Siebel Week (Troy Hager)
  Re: Origin of Common Expressions and Practices ("Larry Bristol")
  Siebel Week (Gary Grande)
  Re: Real ale pubs in London. (Petr Otahal)
  Seibel Week ("Eric R. Lande")
  homebrewer to microbrewer (Phcsw)
  HSA debating blues ("Parker Dutro")
  Miscellaneous musings & my second batch ("Leppihalme, Miikkali")
  Ayinger Source Help ("Schneider, Brett")
  siebel week (Heather Furlong)
  HSA Essentials ("mjandrsn")
  Siebel Week: Yeast viability under pressure ("Mike Dixon")
  Siebel Week: DO levels ("Mike Dixon")
  Mind your "p"s and "q"s. ("Dan Listermann")
  Re:  Monitoring CFC outflow temp ("Dennis Collins")
  RE: Origins of Common Sayings.... (Kelly Grigg)
  RIMS question ("Charles W. Beaver")
  measuring CFC outflow temp ("the freeman's")
  Siebel Week ("Lw Hiii")
  Another CAP yeast question (Richard Seyler)
  carboy horrors.. (Himsbrew)
  Siebel Week, Post-Boil Hop Effects (Sherfey)
  hsa silliness ("Robin Griller")
  Monitoring CFC output (Sherfey)
  Siebel response: Cool pitching ("Tobias Fischborn")


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Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:07:16 -0700
From: Troy Hager <thager at hcsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Siebel Week

Thank you in advance for this opportunity!

My question stems from posts by George Fix last year about a "steady
temperature increase" mashing procedure that he used to make many of his
award winning beers in the last few years of his life. This procedure
entails doughing in the grain at around 100F for 30 minutes and then
steadily raising the temperature at a rate of about 1 degree F / minute to
mash out temps of 168F or so. The direct quote from his post (from file:3628
Date:Tue, 08 May 2001):

"The steady temperature increase mashing procedure described for
us by the folks at AB during MCAB II last year does indeed work on the
homebrew level, even with Budvar malt. Decoction is always the safest
recommendation for such malts, but my experience indicates that the AB
procedure is a viable alternative."

I just brewed an export to his recipe using the Budvar undermodified malt
and this mashing regime. With the 34/70 lager strain this beer dropped
nicely with a AA of 76%. It is lagering now and seems to be excellent - well
attenuated yet full bodied.

Questions:
1. Is this a widely used mashing method? Does Anheuser-Busch (sp?) use this
schedule has Fix infers?
2. Obviously this method works well for this malt (his many awards seem to
be proof of that), but what about other malt? For example, what would I
expect with a more highly modified German Pils malt or American 2-row?

Thanks!

Troy Hager
Technology Specialist
Crocker Middle School
Hillsborough, CA 94010
650-548-4242
 



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Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:14:42 -0400
From: Darrell_Leavitt/SUNY%SUNY at esc.edu
Subject: another Question (Fix and Fix) re: DMS

Thankyou to those who answered the malt question.  This forum is a great
resourse for brewers!

Fix and Fix, pp 49-51 describe DMS (dimethyl sulfide) ....they report on
different levels of DMS in ales and lagers (more in lagers) as well as the
role of SMM (s-methyl methionine) as a precursor..

They report on the higher amount of SMM in lager malts, compared to pale
ale malts,...

ok here is the question: does pilsner malt typically have a higher level of
SMM than pale malt also?.....and if so,
should one, in general, avoid the use of lager and pilsner malts in the
production of ales?

 ..Darrell
[545.7, 72.3 Apparent Rennerian]



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Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:07:52 -0400
From: Tim McManus <tmm4264 at galaxy.net>
Subject: Siebel Week

Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions.

Can you describe the proper "care and feeding" of an American Oak cask?  I
would like to understand how to prepare the cask as a secondary fermentation
vessel for high gravity beers, how to prevent infection in the secondary
during a 3-4 month aging process, and how to store the cask in between
brewing cycles.

The motivation behind the first question is due to a failed stout batch I
recently used on my lawn.  I prepared the cask according to Acton and
Duncan's procedure for breaking in an oak barrel from the book "Progressive
Winemaking".  I left the cask in my basement for approximately 10 weeks.
When I opened the cask there was an aqua-blue leather-like surface on the
liquid.  Some microorganisms had a field day growing in there.  Needless to
say, I was a bit distraught.  I want to prevent this in the future.

Thanks!  More may follow.

 -Tim McManus



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Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:51:12 -0400
From: stencil <stencil at bcn.net>
Subject: Re: Practical Thermo question

On Tue, 14 May 2002 10:28:30 -0400, Jeff  wrote:

>stencil <stencil at bcn.net> writes:
>>I want to cool a kegful of beer [ ... ] 
>
>
>The is sufficient thermal mass in five gallons of beer that I think 
>you could drop the temperature of a fridge 5 deg. F per day without a 
>problem and the beer temperature would lag a bit behind that.  This 
>is more or less what I do.
>
>Jeff

I agree fully and would go that route if I could;  but my 35F chill
box is shared by numerous things that I perceive as not wanting to run
back up to 50F just to take aboard a new passenger.  Similarly, the
cool locker, an insulated space under a workbench up against a below-
grade north wall, is not adjustable.  The specific 1- degree- a- day
figure was pulled out of, um, the air and is subject to revision.

gds, stencil


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Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:47:36 -0400
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Convoluted / finned copper tube source?

Brewers & gadgeteers: is anyone aware of a source for the "convoluted"
copper tube used in the high-efficiency CFCs (such as the PBS (RIP)
MaxiChiller, and the St. Pat's chiller)?   A Canadian source would be
especially useful. A search through the HBD archives reveals one post about
this in 1999, but the source has no web site.

It's a real head-scratcher, as there are all kinds of heat exchangers out
there that use this tubing (Edwards Engineering, Packless, etc), but I can't
find anyone retailing this stuff.  I suspect I'm using the wrong search
terms.  I'd like to use some to build an efficient HERMS coil / immersion
chiller.

Cheers!
Drew Avis, Merrickville, Ontario ~ http://www.strangebrew.ca
Contrary to what most people say, the most dangerous animal in the world is
not the lion or the tiger or even the elephant. It's a shark riding on an
elephant's back, just trampling and eating everything they see.



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Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:55:09 -0700
From: Troy Hager <thager at hcsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Siebel Week

Thanks in advance for doing this!

My question is about yeast viability and pitching amounts.

Much has been discussed about these issues and it is well known that most
commercial breweries maintain viability of 95% or more in the yeast that
they pitch as well as pitching the correct volumes. With lots of very fresh
yeast available and fully equipped labs it is not a big deal to test for and
maintain such standards. At the homebrew level it is a bit more trouble.

Many discussions on the HBD as well as in many books and studies have stated
that pitching less that 90% viable yeast will be detrimental to the finished
product. Specifically George Fix in his books have stated that to him and
his experience pitching a large amount of healthy yeast is the number one
factor in making high quality beer.

Questions:
1. How important is viability? For example if I pitched twice the volume I
needed for my 5 gal batch, let's say 10 oz. of yeast slurry, but it was only
50% viable, could I expect to produce a high quality beer from this? I guess
another way to state it is - How do dead yeast cells effect beer quality?

2. Let's say that I have the same 10 oz. 50% viable yeast slurry but I step
it up with a 1 gal starter. Now I have increased the viability percentage
but still have a lot of dead yeast cells in the mix. Would they have an
effect on the finished product? Would it be advisable to wash this slurry to
remove most of the dead cells before stepping it up?

3. Is lag time, assuming sanitization procedures are very good, a good
indicator of the health of the yeast? 

4. Finally, as a homebrewer without a hemacytometer to count yeast - I would
like to get a general idea of the viability of a sample. I follow standard
procedures for diluting and staining with methelyne blue but just use a
slide and cover plate viewing at 400X. If I see less than 1 out of every 10
cells that stain blue - I should be in the ballpark of >90% viable cells
correct? 

Again, thanks for your time!

Troy Hager
Technology Specialist
Crocker Middle School
Hillsborough, CA 94010
650-548-4242
 



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Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:13:51 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: david croft extract imperial stout

David asks about his extract plus grains imperial stout.  

You can substitute dark for light just like you did if you have the dark
around and want to use it.  Using light just allows you to better control
the levels of chocolate, roasted, etc that you taste.  As you said, the dark
generally has some black patent, roasted barley, and chocolate malts in it
when manufactured.  This info is generally not too easy to obtain especially
in terms of % in the extract.

The 9 lbs total looks a bit lightweight for my impression of imperial stout
but thats just me.  I'd also skip the Victory unless unless you're
minimashing.  The dark crystal can also be quite strong especially at the
higher levels.  Perhaps consider more hops or perhaps lighter crystal to
help balance (or a mixture of crystal colors). In fact, some of the
commercial imperial stout makers even recommend no crystal due to the high
malt flavor you're likely have anyways.

have fun with it.  I just tapped my imperial stout that I brewed January
2001 and kegged March 2001. Not an extract batch, but I have done an extract
batch a ways back using the Wyeast irish stout yeast.

Pete Czerpak
Albany, NY

PS. Just tried a bottled Fuller Golden Pride (barleywine - 8.5% ABV) last
night.  The same intense caramel flavor present in Fullers ESB is there as
well.  Good beer and a bit more hops (more balanced then) than than the
"normal" englishstyle barleywines I've tasted.


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Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:21:37 -0700
From: Troy Hager <thager at hcsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Siebel Week

This question is about hot break.

I have been brewing all grain for about 5-6 years and have done mostly
single infusion batches. My water is very soft and I usually add a few grams
of CaCl2 to treat my brewing liquor. Most of my beers have been ales made
with either domestic 2-row or English pale ale malt. I have read about the
importance of a good hot break and in the past have seen smallish particles
of break material form in the first few minutes of the boil. These particles
have been pretty small - no more than 1/16" and usually less. I have tried a
variety of boiling procedures anywhere from a very high violent roll
(evaporation rates near 20%/hour) to a covered low roll (evaporation rate
closer to 8%/hour) but have not noticed much difference in the amount or
size of the break material in the wort.

I have started to brew lagers with more frequency and have purchased some of
the Budvar undermodified Czech malt. Recently I used it for the first time
in a Dortmunder Export using G. Fix's recipe. This recipe calls for a
dough-in at 104F for 30 minutes and then a steady rise at 1 degree F /
minute to mash out at 168F. When I started the boil I immediately noticed
these HUGE corn-flake sized particles that formed at the beginning of the
boil - I couldn't figure out what they were at first but quickly realized
that they indeed were mammoth sized hot break. I had never seen anything
like it! I have read about egg-soup sized hot break and this is exactly what
it looked like.

At the end of the boil I chilled it down to about 50F - and got a great cold
break as well. After pumping to my fermenter I examined the break material
and it was quite impressive in volume with large lightly colored clumps of
particulate matter left behind.

My questions: 
1. Does the amount of rolling action of the boil (higher temperatures) have
anything to do with the production of break material as many HB books tend
to say? For example, general HB advice is that you must boil hard to get a
good hot break. In my experience this does not seem true - my hot break
usually occurs right at the beginning of the boil. I have actually talked to
professional brewers that have said, "Boil the hell out of it!" Other
sources say a boil of about 7-10%/hour evaporation rate is optimum and there
is a balance between DMS reduction/break formation and thermal
loading/excessive Maillard reactions. How does all this affect the quality
of the break in the boil?
2. Why the big difference from what I have seen in the past to what I saw
with this batch? 
3. Was it the cause of the undermodified malt or the mashing regime?
4. If I had used German Pils or American 2-row with this same mash procedure
would I see the same type of break?
5. Finally, it seems logical that since break material is the coagulation
and therefore separation of tannin and phenolic materials (among other
things) in and from the wort... that more break and larger particles of
break material equals better beer... Is this a true statement?

Thank you for your time!


Troy Hager
Technology Specialist
Crocker Middle School
Hillsborough, CA 94010
650-548-4242
 



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Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 17:43:36 -0500
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: Origin of Common Expressions and Practices

On Tue, 14 May 2002 10:02:12 -0400, Jeff Renner wrote:

>Actually, none of these "origins" holds up to scrutiny.  I used the 
>Oxford English Dictionary (O.E.D.) and other sources.

Jeff, you ignorant slut!

I am not surprised that <YOU> would be confused by such a dubious
source, although I am more concerned about the efforts of an infinite
number of monkeys that have appeared at my door trying to sell me an
original manuscript about some Danish King.

These are not matters that can be scrutinized so easily.  They are
solid facts that have been obtained by trained researchers working for
the Discovery Channel, hermetically sealed, and stored in a mayonnaise
jar on Funk and Wagnal's front porch since noon yesterday.  What is
more, they were stored there at 40C!  So as you can plainly see, they
are not some collection of half-baked opinions issued by a group of
academic linguists (none of which are cunning to even the slightest
degree) that, if they had the slightest hint of ability, would be out
in the business world making money instead of pandering to some
professor who spends his nights as a voyeur in a East End bordello
attempting to create the world's largest collection of smegma.

>OOPS, sorry, I thought I was someone else.

Hmmm...  Must be contagious.

>>The whole nine yards
>See http://www.quinion.com/words/articles/nineyards.htm  and 
>http://www.uselessknowledge.com/word/yards.shtml for discussions of 
>this phrase.  I'd heard it explained as the capacity of a cement 
>truck.  Interestingly, the O.E.D. finds the first reference in print 
>to be 1970, surprisingly late.

Here is an anecdotal data point.  My father-in-law was a tail gunner on
a Mitchell bomber in the Pacific during WWII.  On one occasion I can
remember, in spinning one of his tales, he used that phrase in the
specific context of emptying his gun at an enemy plane.  Certainly no
proof of anything, but I would be willing to wager that the term came
into use before 1970.

>>Free sheets to the wind ... "Three [sic] sheets to the wind" is an
>>often used (meaningless?) variation.
>Again, OED makes no mention of this putative original phrase, only 
>mentioning under sheet (sail):

Interesting, as this is the one about which I was most certain.  Circa
1970, I used the "three sheets to the wind" phrase in a conversation
and was soundly corrected by an individual whose opinion on such
matters I respected.  I find it strange that I cannot now quickly
locate any reference to what I have always "known" to be the correct
expression.  I will, as time is available, continue to search.

>Well. Larry, I hope I have convinced you and that you are not going 
>to continue to dwell in the land of ignorance!

I have never even been to Michigan!


Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX   AR=[1093.6,223.2]
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 23:40:28 -0500
From: Gary Grande <ggrande at execpc.com>
Subject: Siebel Week

 Question:

I was discussing how I mash (in a Rubbermaid cooler) with a coworker
and
       she expressed concern about what sort of compounds could be
leeched into
       the final beer from the plastic of the mash tun.  According to
her, even
       those plastics that claim to be "safe" for heating can still
contribute
       harmful elements.  The harmful element may have been some sort
of
       estrogen, but was definitely something that could
cause/contribute to the
       formation of cancerous cells.  Any ideas?  I received no
replies when I
       originally posted this to the HBD.  Thanks!

        -Aaron

       Aaron,

       I recommend you direct this question directly to the Rubbermaid
manufacturer.

       The walls of a cooler are intended to sustain liquids at
relatively cool temperatures. As far as I know, the interior
       surfaces are not formulated for direct contact with hot
slurries. Chemical reaction is a concern, as well as surface
       erosion. It may be an acceptable vessel, but only the people
who know exactly what is in it can say so with
       confidence.

       Gary Grande
       Siebel Staff



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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 15:26:30 +1000
From: Petr Otahal <potahal at utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Real ale pubs in London.

G'day Wally,

I was in Brugge and London in September last year.  I can recommend these
places:

In London I really enjoyed The White Horse, which is in Parsons Green.  You
can catch the tube to the Parsons Green tube station and walk a few hundred
meters and be there (sorry cant remember the street name but turn right
when you leave the tube station and you should get there).  This pub had
many real ales on tap, I wasn't able to taste them all (unfortunately) but
the ones I did taste were well kept.

In Brugge I visited 't Brugs Beertje a beer cafe at 5 Kemel Straat in Simon
Stevin Plein, needless to say you can taste quite a number of beers there
(they have several hundred to choose from).  It was quite a cosy little
place, always full with a lively atmosphere.  Also did a tour of the Halve
Maan (Half Moon) brew pub and tasted their only beer, Straffe Hendrik
(Strong Henry) which was very good (deceptive in its strength) and our tour
guide had quite a good sense of humour.

I made good use of Michael Jackson's Pocket Beer Book during my travels in
Europe.

Half fun touring and tasting
Cheers
Petr


>Hello collective,
>
>I'm on my way to London, Paris, and Belgium in June and I'd like to
>experience the unique beer/brewery scene in each.  While stays in London
>and Paris are rock solid, I'll either be in Brugge or in Brussels in
>Belgium.
>





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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 01:31:27 -0400
From: "Eric R. Lande" <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Seibel Week

Thanks for this opportunity and maybe I can get a straight answer on
this:

My question is about First Wort Hopping.  This sounds like a good idea,
but questions keep popping up that make me hesitant to try it.  I've read
that when doing FWH that you should add 1/3 of your hop bill to the
kettle as you are laudering.  Is this the bittering, flavoring or aroma
hops or some combination?  If it is the aroma hops, do I need to add more
at the end of the boil to account for the loss of the volatile oils
during the boil?  If it is all three, should the total hopping rate be
reduced to account for the increased bitterness extracted from the
greater amount of hops boiled for the full boil?  Any other info that
could put my mind at ease about FWH would be appreciated.  Also, is FWH a
superior concept or is it just something different that is on a par with
the more common hopping schedule?  Thanks in advance.


Eric Lande
Doylestown, PA


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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 01:35:07 EDT
From: Phcsw at aol.com
Subject: homebrewer to microbrewer

I've invested in re-opening a local 7 BBL brewpub.  It closed 9/01 due to 
poor service.  The brewer is gone, so now I'm seriously wanting to be the 
brewer.  I know it's much more than what I'm used to, but I'm not working and 
this would be an exciting new career for me.  I've homebrewed (all-grain) for 
12 years.  Any tips, guidance, lessons learned would be appreciated.  The 
former brewer said he'd share his recipes/notes with me.  And I have the 
opprtunity to train with a succesfull brewer before we open...
Am I crazy?  I believe I can produce quality beers because I have the desire 
and the knowledge of what they taste/look like.  Thanks for all advice.

Roger Dellinger
AHA & IBS Member


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Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 23:36:31 -0700
From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: HSA debating blues

So I have spent a good amount of these twilight hours reading the extensive
posting regarding HSA.  Opinions and passionate arguments disguised as
civilized Q&A.  Impressed by the logical thought exercised by all slants of
the "discussion", I am reluctant to make the following statement:  I speak
only for myself, perhaps for a handful of others, when I say that I'm bored
and tired of reading the same re-worded argument over and over.  I suppose I
could scroll through the HSA posts, but then I feel I would be neglecting my
education ;)  But seriously, the repetitiveness has become a little
ridiculous, and I'm now in the habit of mentally flagging the HSA posts and
skipping right over them.  Guys are more than free to have their own
personal debates, definitely.  I hope I don't come across as nagging or
uppity, I could really care less about how people handle themselves on a
discussion board (within reason).  I am only hoping to draw attention to the
matter and perhaps hasten a conclusion to the arguing.  That said, everybody
have a good night, take it slow, and thanks to everyone who participates in
the discussions here.  I have learned quite a bit from all the "arguing"
that goes on.

Parker Dutro
Portland Oregon




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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:11:43 +0300
From: "Leppihalme, Miikkali" <leppihalme at quartal.com>
Subject: Miscellaneous musings & my second batch


Phil agonizes over his wheat beer's success:
> What should I do Steve? Kill Jill or run away from
> home (and take my garage with me)?

I'm not Steve nor do I pretend to be him on television, but here's my
advice anyway:

 - option 1: Build another garage and another brewery in it. Teach Jill
to brew her own wheat beer. Experiment in your own garage brewery while
Jill brews wheat in the other.
 - option 2: Brew a HUGE batch of Jill's favorite wheat beer. Do your
own experiments before she manages to drink all the wheat and starts
to ask for more.

Jeff 'Punster' Renner experiences a hazy moment:
> At the risk of mentioning the "O" word, this can also
> remove some oxidized polyphenolics that can contribute
> to haze, but I'm not entirely clear on that (a pun for 
> Mii).

If you're still not entirely clear on that, you should lager yourself
at 32 F (0 C) for 4-6 weeks. Cool, huh?

Larry Bristol marveled:
> For all we know, there may be witches living in our beer.

For all I know, there ARE witches living in my beer. Why would I even
want to brew a witchless beer?

To drag this back to HBD's main topic, my father gave me another fermenting
bucket and I decided to brew another ale at the same time as the first one
is brewing. I bought Glen Brew's Bitter Ale extract and used Wyeast London
Ale liquid yeast, which was quite fresh (dated Feb 2002). I incubated the
yeast for three days, but didn't have the patience to make a starter. I just
opened the swollen bag and poured the contents in the fermenter. This time
I took even more consideration on sanitation and aerating the wort than with
the first batch. The airlock started bubbling after 24 hours. Yeah! Through
the semi-transparent plastic fermenter I can see a layer of yeast about two
inches thick in the bottom of the bucket. Seems like the yeast is doing fine
and multiplying.

Back to witchcraft and mythology: I decided to name this second batch "Nix
Bitter". A "nix" is a mischievous water spirit in German mythology. I live
in a house between two lakes. There's a strait named "Devil's Strait" between
the two lakes. So I figured a name related to water and a demon would be
only appropriate. (The black ale is going to be named "Shite Black".)

 -
Miikkali
Lohja, Finland

"If we eliminate the psychotics, where is the future of the arts?"
 - Jim Baker


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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 07:27:02 -0400
From: "Schneider, Brett" <Brett_Schneider at bose.com>
Subject: Ayinger Source Help

Recent talk about CAPs has turned the light on in the yeast bank - my last
attempt with the Ayinger I had saved away was problematic and now I have
none. Anyone out there willing to be my source for a slant of Ayinger and
possibly be willing to mail me one? I'm just west of Boston. Direct contact
email appreciated.

Thanks - Brett


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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 04:58:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Heather Furlong <sphex74 at yahoo.com>
Subject: siebel week

Dear Dr.Wardrop or Dr.Fischborn,
I have a culture of Lactobaccilus deb. that I would
like to grow on a slant and plate for further use. 
What is the optimal ph which I need to make the agar
and what should I use as a buffering agent?  I have
tried to look this up on the web and only found out
that the ph should be somewhere between 6.1-6.9, also
is there anything else I should know in keeping an
ongoing culture of this?  
   My second question is should I pitch the
Lactobacillus before the yeast or after, will the ph
of the wort be troublesome for the yeast if the
bacteria is given a head start?
Thank you
Richard Furlong
sphex74 at yahoo.com



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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 05:26:53 -0800
From: "mjandrsn" <mjandrsn at w-link.net>
Subject: HSA Essentials

If the gentlemen debating the finer points of HSA would
limit themselves to their insults, we wouldn't have to wade
through all those tedious details for the choice bits.

The debate is futile: One insists on being right, the other
just wants to be happy.


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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 08:41:41 -0400
From: "Mike Dixon" <mpdixon at ipass.net>
Subject: Siebel Week: Yeast viability under pressure

After many discussions about yeast viability as pressure increases with
fellow brewers, and having tried a single rudimentary experiment to find the
pressure at which fermentation stalls or stops, I wondered what the real
answers would be.

At what average pressure (psi), if any, is yeast activity during
fermentation basically stopped or stalled?
Does that pressure vary with different yeast strains and different strengths
of wort?
If that pressure was set on a vessel at the onset of fermentation, would the
wort not ferment?

Thank you very much for this opportunity.

Cheers,
Mike



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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 08:55:16 -0400
From: "Mike Dixon" <mpdixon at ipass.net>
Subject: Siebel Week: DO levels

I have a question regarding the DO (dissolved oxygen) levels in wort after
aeration/oxygenation and pitching.

In a properly aerated/oxygenated wort, adequately pitched for the strength
of the brew, at what point is the DO level essentially zero or unmeasurable?

Cheers,
Mike






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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:21:07 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Mind your "p"s and "q"s.

I have always thought that this expression originated in the printing world.
Lower case "p" and "q" could easily get mixed up considering that they would
appear backwards on the face of removable type.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com






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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:27:25 -0400
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Re:  Monitoring CFC outflow temp

Darren,

I also use a counterflow chiller and have used the following method to
measure the temp of the exiting wort.

I attach a plastic hose to the outlet of the chiller to carry the wort into
the carboy (and so does everybody else).  Right where the hose bends
downward into the neck of the carboy I have drilled a small hole that is
just a little smaller than the probe on my bi-metal thermometer.  I then
insert the thermometer probe into this hole.  The hole being slightly
smaller than the probe creates a seal and the exiting wort flows over the
probe which gives the exiting wort temperature.  I have a picture at:
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com/CounterFlowWortChiller.html

Hope this helps,

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com




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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 08:47:50 -0500
From: Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: RE: Origins of Common Sayings....

Hehehe...I don't know...but, it sure works....
I've learned that from living in New Orleans....

:-)

Just finished doing my 2nd batch of all grain...was happy to see
it bubbling away in less than 10 hours after pitching yeast!!

Kelly
 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 09:24:02 -0600
> From: "Mike Racette" <mike.racette at hydro-gardens.com>
> Subject: Origin of Common Expressions and Practices
> 
> These are really good, Larry. Definitely worth forwarding on to others.
> 
> I always wondered where the expression "Hair of the dog that bit you" came
> from when associated with having a beer (or whatever) the morning following
> a little binge drinking. Anyone know where this one originates?


- ------------------

"Oh, you hate your job? Why didn't you say so? There's a support
group for that. It's called EVERYBODY, and they meet at the bar."

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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 20:56:46 -0500
From: "Charles W. Beaver" <cbeav at netnitco.net>
Subject: RIMS question


With the recent resurgence in the RIMS thread, I decided to automate my 
RIMS system. I had been running a manual RIMS meaning that I was 
recirculating, but would kick on the burner periodically to apply a 
little heat to maintain mash temp. I already had the controller and just 
needed to add the heater.
I used a 4500 W (wired to 110v) heater in line and found that even with 
full time hearing the temp drifted down. I am mashing 28 lb of grain in 
7.7 gall of water.
Questions - How can I tell if I need more heater power or greater flow. 
I estimate that I am pumping about 2 liters / minute.



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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:07:22 -0500
From: "the freeman's" <potsus at bellsouth.net>
Subject: measuring CFC outflow temp 

Darren asks about how to measure the outflow temp from his counterflow
chiller.  I added an analog thermometer to the outflow side of my
chiller on "the perfesser".  Please see the attached pic.  The probe for
the thermometer is placed in the outflow wort stream.

http://www.mirageport.com/potsus/brew%20gear/chiller.jpg

By throttling either the outflow from the boiler or the cold water input
to the chiller, the temp can be regulated quite precisely.

Hope this helps.

Bill Freeman aka elder rat
K P Brewery - home of "the perfesser"
Birmingham, AL



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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:10:14 -0500
From: "Lw Hiii" <feedfwd at hotmail.com>
Subject: Siebel Week

There have been recent discussions of the value/toxicity of micronutrients 
like zinc and copper.  Is there any guideline or published data for maximum 
and minimum limits or optimum targets for any number of minerals or 
micronutrients?

For the past year or so, I seem to be seeing more fines packing into a thick 
cake (tieg?) on the top of my lauter than before.  I have started "raking" 
the top inch or 2 of my lauter with a butter knife in more or less a 
tic-tac-toe pattern once every few minutes or so to improve permeability.  
Nothing I an aware of has changed.  I use the same process, step infusion in 
a gott cooler, same grains (or at least same supplier), same mill.  So I 
wonder if malting changes are contributing to this or if I am an anomoly.  
Also, is there a better way to rake the grain?

Thanks Jethro for making this happen and thanks Siebel and others for your 
contributions to making our brewing better!

Cheers!

Lou Heavner - Austin, TX





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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:33:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Richard Seyler <seyler at arches.uga.edu>
Subject: Another CAP yeast question

I have been listening to Jeff R. describe CAPs for years now, and will
finally make one in my next batch.  The yeast that I use is whatever my
local brewpub has at the time.  The two lager yeasts that I have to choose
from are a California Common (CC), within the next week, or a Czech
pilsner yeast, available in a few weeks.

My first question is whether one of these yeasts would be largely
preferable to the other for a CAP.  Since I would like to do a CC in the
near future, I am tempted to use the steam yeast but wonder: Though 2112
can be used at higher ferment temps, is it vigorous enough to work at
lower, normal lager temps?  Also, my intention is to brew the CC directly
after the primary ferment of the CAP and rack the wort directly onto the
sediment of the CAP primary.  As these two styles are in the same gravity
ballpark, is there any wisdom in brewing one or the other batches first?  
That is, would it be better to use CAP dregs to start a CC, or use CC
dregs to start the CAP, or no difference?

Thanks, 
Tad in Athens, GA
[576.9, 177.4] App.Ren.



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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:53:22 -0400
From: Himsbrew at aol.com
Subject: carboy horrors..

Just another horror story from one of the"it won't 
happen to me crowd"..
I was emptying a carboy of sanitizer over my plastic
 utility sink, in preperation of racking my Rye Pale 
Ale (thanks to whoever it was who posted that recipe!!)
well as you can guess, the wet carboy slipped from my 
hands. As my mind raced, I watched the carboy 
torpedo right thru the bottom of my utility sink,
 and connect with the cement floor underneith with 
obvious results.. To add insult to injury, I had a
dozen bottles of schwartz bier happily carbonating
in that side of the sink,(it didn't place in the
 national competition anyway :-(  ),they followed
 the carboy to it's early demise..
I promise, next time I will be wearing shoes!!
jim cuny
green bay wi..


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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:19:44 -0400
From: Sherfey <sherf at warwick.net>
Subject: Siebel Week, Post-Boil Hop Effects

In homebrew systems using a post-boil counterflow chiller for cooling, the 
wort sits for quite awhile at hot temperatures, possibly 30-45 min. or even 
longer.  Immersion chiller systems cool the wort in bulk and reduce the 
kettle temperature much quicker, but there is still some time that the wort 
sits at elevated temperatures, depending on the elegance of the system and 
the efficiency of the brewer at that point in the process.

I would like to know what effect this "hop rest" of 5 minutes or longer has 
on the bitterness and hop flavor that survives fermentation, and in 
particular the effect on late hop additions from 15 min. remaining boil 
time through knock-out additions.  How would the resulting bitterness be 
factored into the IBI formula?  Please compare the (effects) difference 
between rolling-boiled hops and hot-soaked hops.

Thanks so much for your time in answering our questions this week!

David Sherfey
Warwick, NY




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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 12:03:05 -0400
From: "Robin Griller" <robin_g at ica.net>
Subject: hsa silliness

Hi all,

In an effort to lighten things up and given that no one else seems to have
noticed how silly some of the claims re hsa have been, I'll quote something
the esteemed Steve A. said a couple of weeks ago:

"You've never had an ale pick up sweet caramel notes, never had a beer lose
IBUs over time,"

Can you imagine a group of homebrewers in a london pub having pints of
Fuller's esb? All are marvelling at its lovely taste, including caramel
notes, while Steve fumes: 'See the caramel flavours shows Fuller's have an
hsa problem!'

I'm thinking that the guy here who has been trying for ages to get that
Fuller's flavour, should be hsa-ing the heck out of his beer and
artificially aging it to get what he's after!

Robin 




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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 12:03:27 -0400
From: Sherfey <sherf at warwick.net>
Subject: Monitoring CFC output

I use the method mentioned by George DePiro a year or two ago and highly 
recommend it.  Very simple.  Just stick the probe of a small quick-read 
dial thermometer into the outflow line and read away.  The plastic seals 
around the probe nicely and will only leak if there is pressure caused by 
(Doh!) closing the flow below the probe while a full throttle kettle spigot 
is open above.

Hope this helps...

David Sherfey
Warwick, NY




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Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 18:21:41 +0000
From: "Tobias Fischborn" <fischborn at hotmail.com>
Subject: Siebel response: Cool pitching




Jeff asked.....
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 08:36:50 -0400
From: Jeff Renner
Subject: Siebel Week
Thanks, Rob, for arranging this again this year.
A question about pitching lager yeast. Is it better to pitch at
fermentation temperatures (9-12C) or at warmer temperatures, say 20C, and 
then chill? What are the ramifications of each, and in the case of the 
latter, if it is a possibility, when should you chill to avoid
off flavors?
Jeff

On similar theme......

Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 12:01:22 -0500
From: "Betty and Mike Kilian"
Subject: Seibel Week
I there a preferred method for introducing yeast into the cooled wort? Is it 
preferable to pitch the whole mass into the fermentor or introduce
it slowly inline? If it is introduced inline, would the process work better 
closer or further downline from the fermentor? Thanks for this great 
opportunity!
Mike Kilian

Forbes: I think anything that avoids over-stressing the yeast is probably 
best. When we do lager fermentations we normally pitch the yeast into room 
temp wort then start cooling the wort to 10C.
This allows a better attemperation of the yeast/wort rather than throwing it 
in at 10C and let it get on with it. I have no real data to back up the off 
flavour part but lag phase is normally shorter when the yeast/wort is cooled 
together rather than yeast pitched into cool wort.
If the wort is already cooled then slowly inline might be a good 
alternative. Under good conditions we have removed some of the cool wort and 
added it slowly to the yeast before then pitching the yeast into the wort.
Of course if your yeast is coming from the fridge then introducing it to the 
cold wort should be much simpler.

Tobias: In addition to Forbes........
In my opinion the best way to pitch lager yeast is to pitch  at cold 
temperatures. That means the yeast should be adapted to cold temperatures 
previous to pitching to avoid stress.  The temperature difference should be 
not greater than 10C. In the ideal case the yeast has the same temperature 
as the wort.

If you are using crop yeast, it is already refrigerated during storage or if 
you repitch direct the yeast is at fermentation/lagering temperature.

If you propagate your own yeast, it would be best to cool the yeast down to 
fermentation temperature one day before pitching.

Dry Yeast is an exception. It is recommended to rehydrate the yeast at 
higher temperatures and pitch it soon after rehydration. So in this case the 
yeast has to be used at higher temperatures. The first option is to pitch 
the yeast into the wort and cool both down to fermentation temperature. This 
has to be done carefully and gradually to avoid to stress/shock the yeast. 
This might not always be possible depending on your cooling equipment. The 
second option is to use wort already at fermentation temperature to 
gradually cool down the yeast. This should be done in steps no greater than 
10C.

The advantage of pitching cold is that it is easier to handle and less 
risky. A good lager yeast pitched at cold temperature should start 
fermenting after 12-18 hours. If you cool your yeast with the wort there is 
a chance that you do it too fast, which results in long lag-phase, or you do 
it too slow, which can result in undesirable flavours.

When to start cooling, if you pitch at high temperatures? As soon as 
possible but gradually.

To introduce the yeast slowly inline is resulting in a better mixing of wort 
and yeast than just dumping the yeast into the fermenter. A common practice 
with fermenters that hold more than one brew is to introduce the whole 
amount of yeast inline with the first brew and than add the following brews 
(drauflassen). The inline introduction of the yeast can be done close to the 
fermenter.



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