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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Siebel Reply - First Wort Hopping ("Kirk Annand")
  Yeast for Belgian Strong Ale (RBoland)
  sour beer and bottling ("David Craft")
  Hotmail at work (TOLLEY Matthew)
  End of Siebel Week ("Rob Moline")
  Golden Pride / Vintage Ale ... Malt Selector ("Leppihalme, Miikkali")
  Black ale update & a question about gravity ("Leppihalme, Miikkali")
  COC-IPA Results???????? ("H. Dowda")
  re: HSA / staling experiment (Paul Kensler)
  Golden Monkey Tripel (Jim Busch)
  re: Dry hopping with Tettnang or Hallertauer (Paul Kensler)
  RE: Hop Bag Use ("Dave Howell")
  Quick questions ("Bates, Floyd SEPCO")
  Seems to be internet security settings... ("James Sploonta")
  Keg insulation - long... ("Gary Smith")
  Tomato Sauce, Seibel HSA ("Dave Burley")
  South FL Suppliers ("Greg Smith")
  IPA Club-Only Comp ("Gary Glass")
  Zymurgy Magazine Rubbermaid Bulkhead Plans ("doug klon")
  We have arrived! ("David Craft")
  Wort Boiling ("Partner")
  Siebel Reply - George Fix Mashing Procedure ("Kirk Annand")
  Siebel Reply - Oak Cask ("Kirk Annand")
  Siebel Reply - Post-Boil Hop Effects ("Kirk Annand")
  CAPS ("Kirk Annand")


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Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 12:17:03 -0700
From: "Kirk Annand" <kirk.annand at ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Siebel Reply - First Wort Hopping

Eric:

Please see my response to a hop isomerization question on HBD 3943 (May 17)
which deals with a part of your question.  In what I call the 'three hop
addition schedule' the first hopping goes in just at the start of the boil
to help lower wort surface tension and reduce the chance of over-boiling.
The hops used in this are bittering hops. (One Note: It is difficult to
precisely differentiate between aroma, flavoring and bittering hop character
since they will all contribute to a greater or lesser extent towards the
final taste and aroma of the beer.)

The FWH schedule that you mention looks like a variation of this 'classic'
hop addition schedule.  I see no harm or advantage from it.  Some brewers
sre concerned about removing some 'vegetable matter' taste from their hops
but I have never seem any scientific investigation to back this fear up.
There are many ways to add hops, as I mention in the other response, so
don't be afraid to experiment.

Kirk Annand, S.I.T..



Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 01:31:27 -0400
From: "Eric R. Lande" <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Seibel Week

Thanks for this opportunity and maybe I can get a straight answer on
this:

My question is about First Wort Hopping.  This sounds like a good idea,
but questions keep popping up that make me hesitant to try it.  I've read
that when doing FWH that you should add 1/3 of your hop bill to the
kettle as you are laudering.  Is this the bittering, flavoring or aroma
hops or some combination?  If it is the aroma hops, do I need to add more
at the end of the boil to account for the loss of the volatile oils
during the boil?  If it is all three, should the total hopping rate be
reduced to account for the increased bitterness extracted from the
greater amount of hops boiled for the full boil?  Any other info that
could put my mind at ease about FWH would be appreciated.  Also, is FWH a
superior concept or is it just something different that is on a par with
the more common hopping schedule?  Thanks in advance.


Eric Lande
Doylestown, PA





Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 23:02:08 EDT
From: RBoland at aol.com
Subject: Yeast for Belgian Strong Ale

Peter Ensminger is looking for the right yeast for his Belgian Strong and 
wants to get that earthy, musty character.  He was leaning toward Wyeast 
1214.  I'm not familiar with the White labs yeasts, but agree with his 
selection of 1214.  The Trappist and Abby yeasts are good for Dubbles and 
Tripels, but I consider their flavor too strong and inappropriate for a 
Strong Ale.  By the way, I don't believe that musty, earthy flavor is a 
typical characteristic of Belgian yeasts, or the beers in Belgium.  It 
appears to me (and others) to be a flavor contributed by aging in contact 
with natural corks.  Try a side by side tasting of capped and corked Duvel or 
Jenlain; my experience is that the capped beers don't exhibit the damp 
basement character.  I happen to enjoy it and was surprised that I rarely 
tasted it in Belgium.

Bob Boland
St. Louis


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 00:46:14 -0400
From: "David Craft" <chsyhkr at bellsouth.net>
Subject: sour beer and bottling

Greetings,

I made a sour brown ale back in March and inoculated it with pedicoccus in
early April.  I had activity in the airlock up until  May 1st.

I would like to go ahead and bottle this beer in the next few weeks. It is
clear and I need the Carboy for another batch. I understand that Ped will
not give off CO2, so I do not have to worry about bombs.  Is there any
reason I cannot bottle now? I realize this beer needs to age, why not in
the bottle?

Regards,

David B. Craft
Battleground Brewers Homebrew Club
Crow Hill Brewery and Meadery
Greensboro, NC



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 14:50:55 +1000
From: TOLLEY Matthew <matthew.tolley at atsic.gov.au>
Subject: Hotmail at work

>I apologize for my silence! For some reason, Hotmail has been not allowing 
>me to log in (from work, where my Kleinerisms are). Just tried from home, 
>and it seems to be OK 

Sounds like your office uses SmartFilter (http://www.smartfilter.com).  They
recently updated their 'prohibited sites' list to include a 'Webmail'
category, and hotmail.com is now a verboten site.

Cheers
 ...Matt...




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 01:38:45 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: End of Siebel Week

		End of Siebel Week

     Brewers, we have come to the end of Siebel Week, effective 5.17.02 for
the last posted question in HBD 3944. (3945 shows nothing before the
deadline hour.) There are other responses from Siebel yet to come and any
follow up's generated by past Siebel Responses will be handled as seen fit
by the staff of Siebel and Lallemand.
     My great respect and thanks go to those who have helped to make this
event possible, not only those of you from Siebel and Lallemand, but also
those amateur and professional brewers that set the stage for the expert's
replies. I know I learned more about beer!

      at  this point I would like to ask one more favor of anyone who has
benefited from this event, whether you asked and received a reply, or if you
just learned something from this effort.....Please send a message to

SiebelWeek_Thanks at mchsi.com

an address set up solely for this purpose.

     With your message, I would appreciate if you would indicate whether you
are a professional or an amateur. I will be forwarding these along to our
host experts, without your e-mail addresses, as a way of showing them the
impact of their generosity. No databases will be built, nor will your info
or message be collected for any other purpose. (But, it might help get them
again next year?...maybe for 2 weeks??!)

     Again, I thank you all, and look forward to the rest of the Siebel
Responses!

Cheers!
Jethro Gump

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 10:48:16 +0300
From: "Leppihalme, Miikkali" <leppihalme at quartal.com>
Subject: Golden Pride / Vintage Ale ... Malt Selector

Pete Czerpak writes about Fuller's Golden Pride:
> Its a tasty brew for sure and bottled in 20 oz bottles.

It used to be bottled in 0.33 liter (~11 fl oz) bottles. Just this spring
it appeared to my local pubs in 0.5 liter (~17 fl oz) bottles. I haven't
seen 20 oz bottles around. Could be that they have different bottle
sizes for export, though. 0.5 liters is the most common bottle size in
Finland, because that's the size of a Finnish pint.

Rick writes about Fuller's Golden Pride and Fuller's Vintage Ale:
> During a tour of Fuller's brewery back in 1997, my
> guide, knowing I was a homebrewer, gave me a bunch of 
> information that wasn't a standard part of the tour. 
> This included a press release for 1997 Vintage Ale. 
> It sounds a lot like the Golden Pride so I thought I'd
> share it with everyone. 

The two may sound alike but certainly look and taste different. GP is
deep amber, VA is downright black. GP has caramel sweet and alcoholic
flavors, a typical English barleywine, while VA is not sweet at all
and not alcohol-tasting. VA has bucketloads of more hoppy character
to it than does GP.
   On a sidenote, one of my favorite pubs in Helsinki ran out of VA
1997 only a few days ago. They still have some bottles of the 1998
batch, yummy! (The "fresh" batch of 2000 is more widely available now.
Very, very good.)

Thank you, Rick, for sharing the Vintage Ale recipe! Fuller's VA is one
of my favorite ales (along with Fuller's ESB and 1845) and it was really
interesting to see the recipe.


- --------------------------------

To a different topic. Lahden Polttimo is a Finnish malting company. They
have a little calculator program on their web pages called the Malt
Selector. It's designed to help brewers choose malts and and plan their
mashing program. Any comments from the all-grain brewers of HBD? Here's
the link:

Malt Selector
http://www.lahdenpolttimo.fi/Products/maltselector.html

 -
Miikkali


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 11:23:38 +0300
From: "Leppihalme, Miikkali" <leppihalme at quartal.com>
Subject: Black ale update & a question about gravity


As I earlier reported on the HBD, I started my first ale 1,5 weeks ago.
It's a black ale from a kit, with added Cascade hops for aroma. I was
worried because the airlock never started bubbling. It came out that the
lid of the fermenting bucket is leaking. I received lots of advice in
private email and I wish to thank Bob Sheck, Jay Pfaffman, Gavin Scarman,
John Adsit, Will Randle and Jay J. Schneiderman for their generosity and
willingness to help.

On Saturday, after 9 days of fermenting, I opened the lid, took some of
the wort (with a sanitized spoon) to a glass and measured the wort's
specific gravity.

Flavor: First and foremost - *whew!* - it was not spoiled as I had feared.
It tasted fresh! So the fermentation had started allright. The wort tasted
like a young English real ale, something like a yeasty ESB (the real ale
version, not the bottled one) but darker, with hints of mead and a yummy hop
aroma (not at all too much, John!). A smile of relief took over my face as
I said to myself: "This is going to be a very good beer if the conditioning
phase goes all right."

Gravity: The meter said 1.020 (wort temp was around +20C, +68F) after nine
whole days after pitching the yeast. This is a Black ale and the OG was 1.048.
Is this slow a fermentation normal? The room temp has been roughly between 22C
(71.5F) during daytime and 19C (66F) at night. I anticipated a gravity of
something like 1.010 or even lower by this time. Should I do something about
this?

I plan to bottle on Wednesday or Thursday, at which point the beer has been
fermenting for 13 or 14 days. If the gravity is still way over 1.010 on
Wednesday, should I wait before bottling?

 -
Miikkali


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 06:10:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: COC-IPA Results????????

Anyone heard the IPA results?



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 06:53:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: HSA / staling experiment

For what its worth, I did perform an accelerated
staling experiment on an American pale ale once... 
OK, it was entirely accidental but it was still
interesting to see what happened.

Several bottles were left at 80F for 2-3 days shortly
(within 1 week) of bottling.  Within a month, you'd
swear they were a different beer than the non-staled
bottles and keg.  The "control" was a nice dark gold
color - no reddish tint.  Think of the color of Sierra
Nevada pale ale.  The staled bottles were clearly
amber in color - and not pale amber mind you, but a
nice reddish amber color.  Hop bitterness seemed
higher and harsher, there were noticeable sweet
caramel / honey flavors, and nearly all of the fresh
hop flavor and aroma were gone.  Like I said, you'd
swear they were two different beers.

It was amazing to note the flavor, aroma and (most
surprising for me) COLOR changes that occured after
minimal exposure to heat and in such a short amount of
time.

What was also interesting was the lack of "classic"
oxidation characteristics - no sherry, no paper, no
cardboard.  It could almost have passed for just being
a poorly-formulated beer.

I'd generally say that my beers do not suffer from
oxidation problems - at least not in the amount of
time it takes for my family, friends and I to drink
them!  But it was well worth the loss of a couple
bottles to see what "can" happen to beer over time
and/or in poor storage conditions.  And I have to
admit, it made me a better beer judge and a better
critic of my own beer.

Will I change any of my mashing, fermenting, or
packaging procedures?  No.  I'll just be sure not to
leave my homebrew sitting at 80F again!


Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, May 20 2002 9:56:00 GMT-0400
From: Jim Busch <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Golden Monkey Tripel

The yeast was brought back from Belgium by
Phil Seitz and myself in the early 90s. Its
not available commercially, but try the White Labs
strains as they work well too.

We open ferment in special hybrid tanks.  These
50 BBL fermenters have a shallow dish bottom
and a manway above the wort line so you can skim
and harvest.  1-1 aspect ratio is important with
this yeast strain.  High temps are also critical
but this varies with each strain.  Be sure to
get 20% of your fermentables from sugar too.

Cheers!

Jim Busch



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 07:02:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Dry hopping with Tettnang or Hallertauer

Drew,
Try it and see how you like it.  Personally, I
strongly prefer dry hopping with Cascade, Goldings or
the like - American or English aroma varieties.

The last time I dry hopped with German hops (my notes
are at home, but I think they were Tett.), I thought
the beer was a little too "grassy" and peppery.  Not
my favorite, but certainly drinkable and it went
pretty fast at the party I brought it to.

Bottom line is, you may love it or you may hate it -
but I doubt you'll ruin it!  Give it a shot.


Hope this helps,
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 07:05:16 -0700
From: "Dave Howell" <djhowell at cableaz.com>
Subject: RE: Hop Bag Use

"Paul Stutzman" <Paul.Stutzman at airborne.com> writes in re: Hop Bag Use

 ... I am frequently disappointed in
the amount bitterness in my final product.


Do you sparge or squeeze your hops out?  I used do this for Saaz in Czech
pils.  I stopped using bags, and the Saaz nose (aroma) went away :(

Next czech pils I brew, I'm going back to leaf hops in a bag, and squeezing
them out after the boil (before the CFC), just to restore the nose...

I'd never missed on my hopping target (this is subjective) doing that, and
the risk of mistake re-hopping after boil-over (if you are in danger of
boil-overs) is small.  I've also never noticed any other side effect by
doing this.

It's just that pellets are cheaper by the bucket.  But, this year, my vines
should produce some cones...



Dave Howell


THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the
sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their
country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and
woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this
consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the
triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness
only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper
price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an
article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.
                -- Thomas Paine, "The Crisis No. 1"




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 09:17:06 -0500
From: "Bates, Floyd SEPCO" <floyd.bates at shell.com>
Subject: Quick questions

All:

1.	Does anyone know if AJ DeLange finished/published the third document
below?  From Part I he stated that a third installment was in the works.
a.	Understanding Alkalinity and Hardness Part I
b.	Understanding Alkalinity and Hardness Part II
c.	"A third installment will deal primarily with chloride and
sulfate..." Part III

I have purchased all of the Brewing Techniques issues that featured Mr.
DeLange's articles.  Unfortunately I could not locate his document on Cl and
SO4.

2.	I am getting a little more serious with my yeast farming. My wife
has recommended therapy! Can anyone recommend a microscope, preferably a
x1000, oil immersion scope for less than $1000.  I would be interested in
purchasing a used microscope, if possible.  

Thank you.


Floyd Bates
Surveillance Engineer
Shell Rocky Mountain Production, LLC 
* 307-360-6951 (Cell)
*? 307-367-7907 (Office)



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 10:39:16 -0400
From: "James Sploonta" <biere_god at hotmail.com>
Subject: Seems to be internet security settings...

Odd. I lowered the Internet Security Settings from "Medium" to "Low" (the 
adminstrators probably shuddered when they felt the disturbance in the 
ether), and Hotmail functions again. Perhaps they are sending out unsigned 
Active-X scripts?

Anyway, back to Klein.

5/19/02, he demonstrates his abject ignorance of culinary science with his 
discussion of how the bitterness and alcohol of Chang beer subdues the spicy 
Thai food. No, dipstick, it's the malty sweetness that interferes with the 
acid receptors. Alcohol enhances heat in spicy foods. Bitterness plays no 
part.

And

5/18/2002, "Unfiltered beer continues to ferment in the bottle,..." Ok so 
far "...which results in a hazy or cloudy appearance to the liquid..." in 
most cases, only if you don't know how to pour it, Bobby. I suspect this is  
the case here. "...and a fresher, more "natural" taste." (I won't even 
mention the "peach-tinged hoppiness"...)

5/15, Wynkoop Imperial IPA: "Soft and snoothly bitter, this oak-aged draft 
IPA's floral mouthfeel..." do you mean "flavor" or "aroma"? I simply don't 
know how to "feel" floral "...has a bitter bite and a fairly floral 
aftertaste." that taste as part of mouthfeel again "...The natural 
carbonation encourages the hops to stay soft and subtly complex." Say, 
what?! "...Patches of variegated BRussels lace form a contrasting backdrop 
to the light-amber body. The hop bitterness consolidates toward the end, 
resting softly on the palate while remaining tasteful and unassertive." Just 
as this description defies comprehension. "...Obviouosly a very carefully 
crafted brew, Imperial deserves your undivided attention."

5/11, Bathbeer: "Hoppy pinpricks coat the tongue..." uh, do you mean "carbon 
dioxide bubbles"?

5/6 Castlemaine XXXX Lager, "It is a bit hoppier than many of its 
competitors, due to the use of whole hops, rather than the less flavorful 
pea-sized compressed pellets sometimes used by brewers." This demonstrates 
Klein's lcare in researching and his uncanny grasp of brewing practices and 
principles. He's referring to hop pellets - those small cylindrical pieces 
of compressed hops. You know: the ones you typically have to use less of 
because they provide MORE bitterness to the wort than do fresh hops? Yeah. 
Those.

4/7, Alaskan ESB, "The hop character stays evenhanded, stimulating a bit of 
juiciness from its focused bitterness." Now this, my friends, defies all 
attempts at interpretation. Absolute drivel. I'm no expert, but the term 
"bitter" in "Extra Special Bitter" does not refer to its flavor. I find most 
bitters to be wonderfully malty, with complex ale flavors with muted hop 
flavor. Sometimes high in bitterness, but not on the order that I would 
refer to an ESB as "bitter" in flavor. Never, and I repeat, NEVER having a 
"bitter, hop mouthfeel". If it DID have a hop mouthfeel of any sort, I'd 
suspect the screens in my boil kettle were not filtering the hop leaves out 
of the wort...

4/6, HB Hofbrauhaus Munchen, "The grainy aroma is anchored by an unexpected 
banana aspect as a well-calibrated effervescent pressure enlivens the 
sturdy, light-gold body." Has anyone recently had one of these? Can you tell 
me just what in hell Klein means by this?

4/5, Elysian the Wise Man: "...sweetish, but strong hop mouthfeel that 
sticks tenaciously..." Sweet hops? Hop mouthfeel? Huh? Also, noting that "A 
fresh, doughy aroma arises at mid-bottle. The cloudy amber body has hints of 
chocolate at the finish." is evidence that our friend is either consuming 
from the bottle, or is doing incremental pours without attenmtion to the 
sediment in the bottle. Note how the Wynkoop example, a draft-only beer, is 
the only one I've encountered in this calendar to date that is not desrbed 
as cloudy or hazy (or at least that I remember...).

4/4, Fuji Amber Ale sounds disgusting with its "...green pea mouthfeel...".


And how come my signature disappears when I post from work?

 -JS



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 10:07:40 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com>
Subject: Keg insulation - long...

How-D,

My eternal RIMs projects are going 
swimmingly, always revising & that sort of 
thing... I tried a couple of things with my 
system last week before I left for a large ham 
radio festival in Dayton, OH with the thought 
that something I found there to bring back 
might be useful.

I've got a one tier RIMS utilizing sabco kegs & 
with 2 pumps; one is a magnetic March pump 
& the other a 1/2" ID peristaltic. I'm using a 
6,000W ULWD water heater element in a 
stainless chamber but feeding it with 110V so 
it generates about 1,500 watts. I was able to 
bring 10 gal of water from 60 degrees to 170 
degrees in about 2 1/2 hours. (Yes, I'll pre-
heat the water in the boilkettle before 
pumping it into the mash, this was just an 
experiment).  I'm using 1/2" ID Norprene 
tubing & Polysulfone Quick disconnects for 
everything tubing related.

The Camp Chef is permanently attached 
under the boil kettle and all flame generated 
heating of water happens here and gets 
pumped where needed. The Peristaltic will 
pump from the boilkettle to the HLT when 
ready as the mag pump continues  to circulate 
through the rims. As the sweet liquor is being 
pumped from the mash-tun via the march 
pump, water will be simultaneously pumped 
from the HLT via the peristaltic pump as 
sparge water.

What was apparent to me during this test was 
the heat required to raise the water using the 
rims alone was wasted from the kettle itself, 
the rims chamber & the tubing. 

IF I was not loosing so much heat from the 
keg  & rims chamber, I would have a much 
more rapid temp change. This would allow a 
much easier decoction, save time & be more 
cost effective.

I called the major names advertised in 
Zymurgy, my email list & from a quick internet 
search to find a wrap-around insulator for the 
kegs. Several of the places I called couldn't 
understand exactly what I wanted & at the 
very least, didn't have it. No one had anything 
in this regard. The closest I  found was a 
jacket for a corny keg to keep it cool outside 
the freezer. I was told one solution was to 
wrap plastic around the  kegs & it would retain 
heat better.

I thought about the needs & what would be 
effective & easy to clean.  For the Norprene 
tubing, it seems like the flexible wrap-around 
air-cell insulation that insulates  the AC lines 
from the outdoor compressor to the house 
would be perfect for insulating the Norprene 
tubes. While at the Dayton hamfest, I found a 
rubber mat floor liner for a pickup truck that 
was certainly enough to cut into sections that 
would wrap around the 3 Sabco kegs & the 
RIMS chamber. I can even attach the rubber 
to the bottom of the mash & HLT vessels as 
no direct heat source touches them, same for 
the top surface of the keg lids. If I move the 
bottom of the rubber up from the lower part of 
the boil kettle, it won't be affected by the 
flame below.

OK, I know this will really make a big 
difference & will be really easy to clean. I'm 
not sure just wrapping the kegs with this from 
a cut rubber mat is as good an idea as I might 
use. I haven't cut the mat yet, perhaps there's 
something I should insert between the rubber 
& the stainless keg that would help & don't 
want to cut the rubber too short. I thought 
about sandwiching bubble wrap in-between 
but didn't know about it's longevity. I was 
thinking about holding the rubber in place on 
the kegs with bungee straps although I picked 
up some incredible glue at Dayton which 
glues anything immediately & remains flexible 
( the demonstrator cut a vacuum cleaner 
motor O-ring in half with a knife & then put 
one drop of this glue on one cut end & 
rejoined the two pieces together &  5  
seconds later it was as new, I couldn't break 
or twist the bond apart...) Still, the bungee 
straps might be a better method. 

That's pretty much the whole picture. 
Insulation on all 3 kegs seems like it would 
allow me a much faster rise time & save 
electricity & Propane.

Anyone have any suggestions as to what I 
might effectively put between the rubber & the 
keg for an effective & easy to clean 
insulation? 

Is there a better overall solution I might check 
into?

If you managed to read this far, thanks!

:)

Cheers,

Gary




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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 12:02:02 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Tomato Sauce, Seibel HSA

Brewsters:

Martin Brungard is having trouble matching a beer with tomato sauce foods
and asks for some help.

Hmmm! Maybe you've never tried pizza or spaghetti along with a good old
American pilsner style? I've never tried a Wit but that should go nicely as
I like lactic acid ( from, for example, cheese) along with the acids in
tomatoes.

Growing up in the Midwest we used to drink ( and I still do, occasionally)
"Red Beer" made by mixing approximately 50/50 Campbell's tomato juice and
Strohs or Bud or whatever to taste. Tasty on a hot day. I am sure any
lawnmower beer would be just great.  Also we would sometimes use V-8 just in
case we were accused of not eating our vegetables and a little hot sauce to
kinda spice things up if we were in a Mexican mood.
- -------------------------------
Kirk Annand's comments on HSA using the gas laws as a way to determine if
HSA is potentially significant or not is logically incorrect.

First the gas laws deal with pure ideal gases under equilibrium conditions.
Hardly the situation at the interface of a kettle of boiling wort.
Secondly, he assumes that non-reactive water is the same as reactive wort.
Not so.

This phenomenon of wort oxidation is not one of equilibrium but one of
kinetics. That is, the RATE of reaction is important. Since this is a
surface phenomenon the relative surface area ( surface/volume)  exposed to
oxygen is important.  Since most rates of reaction go up with temperature,
at the boil, the rate of oxidation increases.

The reason oxidation of wort can be important in homebrewing is that the
surface to volume ratio is so large compared even to small breweries. This
gives ample opportunity for reaction at the surface. Hot transfer can be
another stage for oxidation that is substantially different for homebrewers.

Don't kid yourself. Until you actually try the suggested remedies to reduce
wort oxidation in your particular boiling/transfer situation you will never
know the effect of wort oxidation on the final taste and color of your beer.


Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 16:22:31 -0400
From: "Greg Smith" <barnbrew at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: South FL Suppliers

Greetings,

I am trying to find some south Florida supply shops.  I know of Home Brewers
Warehouse, although I honestly haven't been there yet.  I am wondering if
there are any others in the Ft. Lauderdale area - ideally between Ft.
Lauderdale and Boca, but perhaps as far north as Delray Beach.

The only listings I ever see are way further north in FL, so naturally, I'm
looking for something closer to home.  For some reason, I can't convince my
better half that whole day or a two day trip for homebrew supplies is a good
thing.  She's understanding, but not THAT understanding.

I don't mind mail order, but when I am in a rush and "gotta have something,"
well, I gotta have it.  Both posting replies in the digest and/or private
emails are fine.


Many Thanks,
Greg



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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 14:31:06 -0600
From: "Gary Glass" <gary at aob.org>
Subject: IPA Club-Only Comp

The Results are Finally In!!

Judging was completed on Sunday May 19, the judging had to be postponed due
to some unfortunate schedule conflicts with the local judges.

The AHA thanks Jeff Smith and the South Gasconade Brewing Society of
Owensville, MO for hosting the IPA Club-Only Competition held May 4-19,
2002. This was the sixth of six competitions in the August to May 2001-2002
cycle, with points going toward the Homebrew Club of the Year trophy.

Of the 43 entries the winners were:
First Place
Mark Ryan of Anchorage, AK
Representing Great Northern Brewers
With his IPA

Second Place
Kenneth Adamson of Edmond, OK
Representing the High Plains Draughters
With Adamson's Burton IPA

Third Place
Kenny Schrader of Edison, NJ
Representing W.H.A.L.E.S.
With Divorce Court IPA

Congratulations!
Thanks to all of the clubs that participated.

Current Standings:
13 ZZ HOPS
6 CRAFT
6 Foam on the Range
6 Great Northern Brewers
6 Wort Hogs
3 Brew Rats
3 High Plains Draughters
3 Hogtown Brewers
3 Long Beach Homebrewers
3 Niagara Association of Homebrewers
3 Prairie Homebrewing Companions
2 Iowa Brewers' Union (IBU)
1 Pint and Pummel
1 Urban Knaves of Grain
1 W.H.A.L.E.S.

Cheers!

Gary Glass, Project Coordinator
Association of Brewers
888-U-CAN-BREW
(303) 447-0816 x 121
gary at aob.org
www.beertown.org

The National Homebrewers Conference got so big we had to move it to Texas.
Don't miss the "Big Texas Toast" in Irving, TX, June 20-22. Check out
http://hbd.org/nhc2002/

The Great American Beer Festival Turns 21 this Year! Mark your calendars,
October 3-5, 2002 at the Denver Convention Center,
http://www.beertown.org/GABF/

Join the AHA today at http://www.beertown.org/AHA/ahabens.htm



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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 16:07:29 -0700
From: "doug klon" <klonyklon at hotmail.com>
Subject: Zymurgy Magazine Rubbermaid Bulkhead Plans

Has anyone made the bulkhead fitting for Rubbermaid/Gott picnic coolers from 
the plans in the recent issue of "Zymurgy" (not sure what month - Jan-Feb 
maybe - it was the one with the orange picnic cooler on the front, I believe 
it said "Art of the Mash" on the cover)?

If so, what did you use for a washer on the outside of the cooler? I tried 
an O-Ring but couldn't find one to fit, so I cut away a rubber flat washer. 
However, this isn't really water tight - it dribbles out around the edges, 
nothing too dramatic but annoying nonetheless. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Doug



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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 20:23:32 -0400
From: "David Craft" <chsyhkr at bellsouth.net>
Subject: We have arrived!

Good Morning,

Check out the latest issue of American Heritage magazine (July 2002),
published by Forbes and one great history magazine.  I tore off  the
plastic to find a beautiful mug of beer, with the
headline.........."Democracy's Drink, what beer tells us about America."
The article finishes with Michael Jackson 10 best American beers.  I might
disagree with him on quite a few, but hey, we have so many great choices!
Isn't that what democracy is all about!

Enjoy the read,

David B. Craft
Battleground Brewers Homebrew Club
Crow Hill Brewery and Meadery
Greensboro, NC



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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 19:29:36 -0500
From: "Partner" <Partner at Netdirect.net>
Subject: Wort Boiling

I just finished reading George Fix's "Principles"  Second Edition, and am
beginning to wonder about some of my methods.

I started using a portable fan blowing over the top of my boil kettle.  This
was because once I started boiling 12-13 gallons of wort, I was not getting
the vigorous boil I was use to at 7 gallons.  Before, I would even
constantly stir the Wort during boil to reduce the volume to try to have at
least a 90-120 min. boil.  All to reduce volume to get a higher O.G.
Higher O.G. = higher Al. / vol.


Now I know I'm facing Mallard Reactions  (Deeper Colour), and also losing
the protection layer of steam above the boil.  <- Read more, learn more.

I saw the benefit of having a steady stream of air blowing across the top to
help remove moisture, but now I wonder if I am doing wonderfully wrong bad
bad things?  Yes, I know the big boys would not do this.

Does anyone else do this?

What's the consensus?  Sparge less and work from their?   Go for JUST a 60
min boil?  Up the pale malt's to get more fermentables?   Tell me more,
please.

I think I already answered my questions.....    Add more fermentable grains.
Boil for no more than 90 min for hop consideration and also colour changes.
But knowing that moving air across the top of a boil means a faster
evaporation rate/shorter boil, makes me want to continue that aspect.

Argh, the experimentation I have to go thru!   :)

Byron

206.9, 212.1   Apparent

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!




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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 21:43:05 -0700
From: "Kirk Annand" <kirk.annand at ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Siebel Reply - George Fix Mashing Procedure

Troy:

No, this 'steady temperature increase' mashing procedure is not common.  It
is understandable why it works since the total mashing time once the grains
are wetted is almost 1 hr 40 min.  With modern malts this is a long mash
period.  As you know there are many enzymes in the malt and this procedure
lets all of the ones that work from 100 - 168 degrees have a chance to
convert or degrade those substances that they would normally do.  The
possible problem with this type of regime is that mashing is normally
controlled by holding the mash at specific temperatures for specific time
periods.  This steady temperature increase regime takes away this type of
control and so the enzymes (all of which are active in a particular part of
the temperature range) only have a relatively short time at their optimum
temperatures to do their conversion.  Modern malts are different than ones
made in previous times.  Most of them have higher enzyme levels than 'old
fashion' malts and so have faster conversion times.  For this reason I
believe that this regime will work with the other malts you mentioned but
the resulting beer may have a different body and flavor profile than the
same beer made with a conventional mashing regime.

Anheuser-Busch does not use this type of mashing schedule to make their
beers.  With the exception of their all-malt specialty beers made in their
smallest brewery all A-B beers are made with a certain percentage of cereal
adjunct, either rice or corn depending on the brand.  When using adjuncts
they use a cereal cooker with small amount of malt and the adjunct.  They
bring this to a boil to gelatinize / liquify the starch and then they add it
to the malt mash in the cereal cooker.  The process is a lot like decoction
mashing and the addition of the boiled cooker mash in a controlled pump-over
gives the 'stepped temperature rise' to conversion temperature.  The mash
mixer has controllable steam jackets and after conversion the entire mash is
raised up to mash-off temperature and pumped to the lauter tun.

In your George Fix quote he mentions decoction.  As an aside it may be of
interest to know that decoction mashing is almost a thing of the past in
Germany.  One of our colleagues at Doemens Academy told me that he believes
there are only 3 or 4 breweries in Germany (out of about 1000) who are still
doing it.  Modern brewing materials and the control of stepped infusion mash
mixers has led to its virtual demise in the land where it was once very
common.

Kirk Annand, S.I.T.


Tue, 14 May 2002 10:07:16 -0700
From: Troy Hager <thager at hcsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Siebel Week

Thank you in advance for this opportunity!

My question stems from posts by George Fix last year about a "steady
temperature increase" mashing procedure that he used to make many of his
award winning beers in the last few years of his life. This procedure
entails doughing in the grain at around 100F for 30 minutes and then
steadily raising the temperature at a rate of about 1 degree F / minute to
mash out temps of 168F or so. The direct quote from his post (from file:3628
Date:Tue, 08 May 2001):

"The steady temperature increase mashing procedure described for
us by the folks at AB during MCAB II last year does indeed work on the
homebrew level, even with Budvar malt. Decoction is always the safest
recommendation for such malts, but my experience indicates that the AB
procedure is a viable alternative."

I just brewed an export to his recipe using the Budvar undermodified malt
and this mashing regime. With the 34/70 lager strain this beer dropped
nicely with a AA of 76%. It is lagering now and seems to be excellent - well
attenuated yet full bodied.

Questions:
1. Is this a widely used mashing method? Does Anheuser-Busch (sp?) use this
schedule has Fix infers?
2. Obviously this method works well for this malt (his many awards seem to
be proof of that), but what about other malt? For example, what would I
expect with a more highly modified German Pils malt or American 2-row?

Thanks!

Troy Hager
Technology Specialist
Crocker Middle School
Hillsborough, CA 94010
650-548-4242




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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 22:09:52 -0700
From: "Kirk Annand" <kirk.annand at ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Siebel Reply - Oak Cask

Tim:

The use of oak casks without 'brewers pitch' is not and never has been very
common in brewing.  When barrels were a standard way to deliver draught beer
to taverns they were always coated with a brewers pitch first.  This was a
tar-like compound that was melted and then added to the barrel and rolled
around in the barrel to completely cover the wood.  A lot of old breweries
burnt down because of fires when they were melting the pitch!  The purpose
of this pitch was to seal the keg so that air would not get in and carbon
dioxide out of the beer but also to prevent the wood coming in contact with
the beer.  Wood is not a good material to come in contact with beer since
because of it porous surface it is almost impossible to eliminate beer
spoiling organisms.  The Michael Jackson 'Beer Hunter' video on Czech beers
shows them removing and adding pitch to the old fermenters and storage tanks
that used to be used at Pilsner Urquell.

Lambic brewers use casks but since their beers naturally ferment with yeast
and bacteria from the air the barrels are just another way to get some of
the fermentation going.  Using a barrel to get an 'oaked' character to beer
is difficult to control.  Wine usually has a higher alcohol content than
beer as well as a lower pH and higher acidity.  Beer is a much more delicate
beverage and sanitation is more critical in breweries than it is in
wineries.  Using the techniques that vintner's use to break in a barrel is
not really acceptable for beer.  I know brewers who use old whisky barrels
to brew beer in but they often use them to get some of the whisky character
into their beers.  These barrels are also charred inside and the remnants of
the highly alcoholic liquid inside reduces the chance of wayward bacteria
that could spoil their beer.

I know this has probably been of little help for your cask so maybe someone
else knows how to prepare the cask for what you want to do.

Kirk Annand, S.I.T.



Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:07:52 -0400
From: Tim McManus <tmm4264 at galaxy.net>
Subject: Siebel Week

Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions.

Can you describe the proper "care and feeding" of an American Oak cask?  I
would like to understand how to prepare the cask as a secondary fermentation
vessel for high gravity beers, how to prevent infection in the secondary
during a 3-4 month aging process, and how to store the cask in between
brewing cycles.

The motivation behind the first question is due to a failed stout batch I
recently used on my lawn.  I prepared the cask according to Acton and
Duncan's procedure for breaking in an oak barrel from the book "Progressive
Winemaking".  I left the cask in my basement for approximately 10 weeks.
When I opened the cask there was an aqua-blue leather-like surface on the
liquid.  Some microorganisms had a field day growing in there.  Needless to
say, I was a bit distraught.  I want to prevent this in the future.

Thanks!  More may follow.

 -Tim McManus




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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 22:47:30 -0700
From: "Kirk Annand" <kirk.annand at ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Siebel Reply - Post-Boil Hop Effects

David:

Some parts of your question may be dealt with in my response to the 'Hop
Isomerization' in HBD 3943 (May 17). The longer the hops sit in the hot wort
the more utilization there is of the bittering substances.  If you add your
late hops 15 minutes before the end of the boil you should factor them into
your bitterness calculations.  Boiling wort dissolves the alpha acids in the
wort and isomerizes them.  Hot soaking (depending on the time and how close
the wort is to boiling temperature) will do some of the same things but at a
much slower rate.  If the hops are added to the wort after it has been
boiled while it is waiting to be cooled I would probably not consider that
they added any bittering value.  Hopefully they will provide some clean,
fresh hop aroma.

This practice of hot soaking the hops is much more common among homebrewers
than it is in the commercial brewing community.  This is not a kettle hop
addition and in most commercial breweries they want the hops (if they are
whole cone) out of the wort so they will not be in the whirlpool tank.  Hop
jacks or hop backs usually remove the whole hop cones before the wort is
whirlpooled.  In the case of pelletized hops they would sink to the bottom
of the whirlpool and not be part of the trub pile and they might cause
problems if they were to enter the wort cooler.

Kirk Annand, S.I.T.


Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:19:44 -0400
From: Sherfey <sherf at warwick.net>
Subject: Siebel Week, Post-Boil Hop Effects

In homebrew systems using a post-boil counterflow chiller for cooling, the
wort sits for quite awhile at hot temperatures, possibly 30-45 min. or even
longer.  Immersion chiller systems cool the wort in bulk and reduce the
kettle temperature much quicker, but there is still some time that the wort
sits at elevated temperatures, depending on the elegance of the system and
the efficiency of the brewer at that point in the process.

I would like to know what effect this "hop rest" of 5 minutes or longer has
on the bitterness and hop flavor that survives fermentation, and in
particular the effect on late hop additions from 15 min. remaining boil
time through knock-out additions.  How would the resulting bitterness be
factored into the IBI formula?  Please compare the (effects) difference
between rolling-boiled hops and hot-soaked hops.

Thanks so much for your time in answering our questions this week!

David Sherfey
Warwick, NY







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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 22:51:32 -0700
From: "Kirk Annand" <kirk.annand at ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: CAPS

General Question:

I have been looking at HBD for a little over a week and I see the term 'CAP'
often.  What does this stand for?  It is an abbreviation that I am not
familiar with.

Kirk Annand, Siebel Institute of Technology






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