HOMEBREW Digest #3947 Wed 22 May 2002

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  Phosphate Corrosion Inhibitors (AJ)
  hsa and heating elements ("the Ludwigs")
  Seibel and First Wort Hopping ("John Adsit")
  re: wort boiling ("Tom and Katherine Meier")
  Corked Belgian ales ("Groenigen,  J.W. van")
  Cask breathers and Conicals (KC Jones)
  re: Zymurgy Magazine Rubbermaid Bulkhead Plans (John Schnupp)
  RE: Black ale update & a question about gravity ("Steven Parfitt")
  Siebel Response: Water ("Tobias Fischborn")
  Western NY Homebrew Competition ("Todd M. Snyder")
  Re: CAPS (Jeff Renner)
  insulating mash tun, rims (Rob Dewhirst)
  re: Zymurgy Magazine Rubbermaid Bulkhead Plans ("TED MAJOR")
  FW: Keg isulation..... ("Smith,Brian H")
  Fitting placement on Keg Based Systems ("John R. Prather")
  Re: Bulkhead Assembly in Zymurgy (John Palmer)
  tripel yeasts ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Yeast for Belgian Strong Ale (LJ Vitt)
  Re: expressions (Bill Wible)
  In search of Ball lock keg fitting ("John Misrahi")
  Siebel response - Troy Hager Yeast Viability and Pitching ("Tobias Fischborn")
  more complaints (brewjohn4)
  Re: Slow Starting Fermentation ("Greg Smith")
  Zymurgy saison recipe (Ken Pendergrass)
  Bell's Best Brown (Ken Pendergrass)
  Dehumidifier H2O ("Partner")
  Siebel Reply - Homebrew Oxidation ("Kirk Annand")
  Siebel Reply - Hop Bitterness ("Kirk Annand")
  FW: Siebel Week-Lyn Kruger ("Rob Moline")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 02:24:21 +0000 From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: Phosphate Corrosion Inhibitors No need to disturb the A.O.B. A.J. is a regular reader of the HBD but not much of an expert on polyphosphates. My first question to the water supplier would be "What is it you are trying to prevent the corrosion of?" and the reason for this is that phosphate is often used as a corrosion inhibitor when lead piping is around from the old days but it can also be used to protect iron and copper pipe. I guess the real question would then be as to what the concentration of lead in the delivered water is and if it isn't pretty darn low I'd be thinking about filtration to get it down to where I was comfortable with it. That issue aside, the dosage of phosphates for corrosion control is usually pretty small and it is intended that it will react with the pipe material to form a protective layer over the piping so that some of it is consumed but enough must be put into the water to reach all parts of the distribution system which may require protection. It would be worthwhile to know the level of phosphates that you might expect to find at your tap and if the supplier can't tell you that there are simple tests that can be done on samples of the water at your tap. The extent of the reaction with calcium will depend on how much calcium is in the water i.e. how hard it is. If the water is "hard" then it is quite possible that hydroxyapatite will form and I'd guess that suppliers wouldn't use phosphate in hard water for that reason especially as they tend to raise pH when corrosion inhibition is being planned.I'm guessing, therefore, that Doug's water may be reasonably soft requiring calcium supplementation for most brewing applications. In this case the small amount of phosphate added for corrosion control is not likely to require an adjustment to the calcium addition as only small amounts of calcium will be precipitated by combination with the phosphates. This is one of those areas in water treatment where analysis and prediction often fall short and the actual treatment settled upon is determined by operating a pilot system. Thus the general comments I've made here may not apply at all in this particular case. A chat with one of the water service's chemists is probably called for here. A.J. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 22:54:57 -0700 From: "the Ludwigs" <mwludwig at tqci.net> Subject: hsa and heating elements Robin Griller says: >Sorry to point out the obvious, but for anyone freeking out about the >horrible damage they are doing to their beer by *not* mashing it in a CO2 >only environment, *not* boiling under a float, etc., here's a quote from >one of today's Siebel postings: The point is with the flavor difference and change over time. Guess I'm curious what they really are (I'll be the judge). If you're happy with whatever you end up with, great! Personally, I appreciate the suggestions provided by Steve Alexander. Namely, I like the idea of a mash float and have an idea I'll try out sometime when I get it. Float will also help heat retention, BTW, and that would be around 50% of my reason for the float. Never thought of the float idea before, but like it. Mike Brennen asks: >Anyone have a good source for All stainless steel or all brass water >heating >elements. I'm looking for 120 volt 1500 watts or better, screw in type. Try here: http://www.heating-elements.com/ Cheers, When I'm done with my basement renovation, maybe I can actually brew again. Dave Ludwig Flat Iron Virtual Brewery Southern MD - --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses at tqci.net] Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 22:23:31 -0600 From: "John Adsit" <jadsit at attbi.com> Subject: Seibel and First Wort Hopping Seibel tells us: > The FWH schedule that you mention looks like a variation of this 'classic' > hop addition schedule. I see no harm or advantage from it. And the illusion is shattered. These Gods of Brewing don't have the slightest clue what First Wort Hopping is. What a disappointment. You have to hold everything else they say suspect after an answer like that. John Adsit Boulder, CO jadsit at attbi.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 01:29:09 -0500 From: "Tom and Katherine Meier" <meier331 at bellsouth.net> Subject: re: wort boiling Contrary to some opinions, the amount of wort evaporation is almost exclusively related to the net heat input to the wort. Any means you can use to improve this will increase the boil-off rate. (high temp insulation on the pot sides, a windscreen that directs gases up the side of the kettle, etc. etc.) For those that don't believe me on this one (you hear me Todd S.?) then set a boiling hot pot in front of a fan with the flame set low enough to keep it hot, but not boil. Then wait and see how much evaporates due to the fan. You don't put a fan over your rice to boil off the water faster, don't put one over your kettle :) Good luck with the larger batches, I'm sure there are many other challenges to overcome, but for this one maybe the answer is a split boil or a larger burner. Now about these Bob Klein descriptions.... May 21st - "Aass is tasty and distinctive" Thanks for the insight Bob, don't mind if I just take your word for it! -Tom Meier Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:37:54 +0200 From: "Groenigen, J.W. van" <J.W.vanGroenigen at Alterra.wag-ur.nl> Subject: Corked Belgian ales Bob Boland (hey Bob, do you have any Dutch relatives? I have friends with the same family name) remarks: "By the way, I don't believe that musty, earthy flavor is a typical characteristic of Belgian yeasts, or the beers in Belgium. It appears to me (and others) to be a flavor contributed by aging in contact with natural corks" That is exactly my experience. I have lived for two years in California before moving back to the Netherlands, and I was amazed how different, musty earthy, some of my well-known favourites (Chimay, Corsendonk, Duvel) tasted over there. In fact, the cork flavour seems to dominate a bit, giving these beers more similar tastes than I am used to. The capped versions over here taste less musty, probably due to shorter aging. In the Netherlands, and probably also in Belgium, you can also buy these beers in 30 CL bottles with a cap. In fact, that's the most common package. I think I prefer the capped version, I think you can taste the unique character of the individual beers better. Jan Willem Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 03:37:39 -0700 (PDT) From: KC Jones <beerbeer95648 at yahoo.com> Subject: Cask breathers and Conicals I have a 12.2 gallon conical from BBMB, and was wondering if anyone has attempted to use a cask breather to allow for inert gas displacement when racking to cornies. I was planning on using a breather anytime I withdrew from the fermenter(trub, yeast, samples, etc.). I would however wait to hook up the breather until the beer had mostly finished just incase any fob made its way in (they are difficult to clean, and tend to fail if beer is allowed in). Cask breathers have a built in 'soft spile' which can release the excess pressure which could be useful in a fermenter which is not designed to be used under pressure. Additionally, they only displace up to atmospheric pressure. In any case any suggestions would be appreciated. KC Sare Edinburgh Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 05:02:38 -0700 (PDT) From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com> Subject: re: Zymurgy Magazine Rubbermaid Bulkhead Plans From: "doug klon" <klonyklon at hotmail.com> >Has anyone made the bulkhead fitting for Rubbermaid/Gott >picnic coolers from the plans in the recent issue of No, but I did do this: My first "bulkhead" was a 3/8" NPT close nipple using the stock grommet. I had to get creative with orings and washers for the seal on the outside of the cooler. I finally got sick of dealing with and found that it is possible to squeeze another stock grommet in the hole from the outside of the cooler. A piece of 1/2" copper then fits nice and tight. You could also use any standard bulkhead fitting (that fits thru the grommet) because there is a good rubber seal on each side. Call Rubbermaid to order the grommets. They are cheap, buy a dozen and you'll have a lifetime supply. Sorry but I do not have their phone number, I thought it was in my Palm but it is not. A web search with a decent engine should send you in the right direction. ===== John Schnupp, N3CNL ??? Hombrewery [560.2, 68.6] Rennerian Georgia, VT 95 XLH 1200, Bumblebee Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:15:35 -0400 From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Black ale update & a question about gravity Miikkali Queries about botteling: >As I earlier reported on the HBD, I started my first ale 1,5 weeks ago. >It's a black ale from a kit, with added Cascade hops for aroma. I was >worried because the airlock never started bubbling. It came out that >the >lid of the fermenting bucket is leaking. ... Snip... Glad you found your problem. This is not uncommon with buckets. >On Saturday, after 9 days of fermenting, I opened the lid, took some of >the wort (with a sanitized spoon) to a glass and measured the wort's >specific gravity. >Flavor: First and foremost - *whew!* - it was not spoiled as I had >feared. >It tasted fresh! So the fermentation had started allright. The >wort tasted >like a young English real ale, something like a yeasty ESB ....SNIP.... Congrats on your beer. It sounds like it is going to be great. >Gravity: The meter said 1.020 (wort temp was around +20C, +68F) after >nine >whole days after pitching the yeast. This is a Black ale and the >OG was >1.048. Is this slow a fermentation normal? .....SNIP.... Not really uncommon. Fermentation rates can varry considerably depending on Oxigenation rate, temperature, yeast strain, pitching rate, and probably other variables. Also, fermentation is not a linear process. It takes longer to drop the last ten points than the first 30 or more.... >I plan to bottle on Wednesday or Thursday, at which point the beer has > >been fermenting for 13 or 14 days. If the gravity is still way over > >1.010 on Wednesday, should I wait before bottling? Last time I did that, I ended up with "Bottle Bombs"! Give it at least three weeks before you bottle. Check your gravity, and don't bottle till it is stable for a week is the best advise. When you add almost a cup of sugar to a five gallon batch, you are only bringing the gravity up two to three points. If that is enough to heavily carbonate beer, think what ten points could do to it! The beer may end up with a higher gravity that 1.010, but you need to be sure it is finished fermenting before you add priming sugar and bottle. Best wishes.Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery http://thegimp.8k.com Johnson City, TN 5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian "Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von Bismarck Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:30:06 +0000 From: "Tobias Fischborn" <fischborn at hotmail.com> Subject: Siebel Response: Water Micah asked...... Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 07:35:13 -0500 From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at silganmfg.com> Subject: Siebel Week question My question goes back to an old hbd thread (at least 10 years ago)about yeast starters and rapid yeast growth. A number of people were involved in trying different some methods for increasing the volume of yeast in a short time. One of the annomolies noted from these hbd experiments was that the water used to make solutions for yeast feeding impacted the results of the experimenters at differing locations, using the same methods. The best results (yeast growth vs time) were obtained by hbders in agrarian areas using untreated well water. The effect was attributed to the high content of nitrogenous materials often found in agraian water supplies, and dubbed, 'the grave yard effect' (ironicly by G.Fix). What would like to know is, has any 'real' research be done along these lines and if so indentified the mechanism at work in both the water and yeast, and a way to duplicate it? Micah Millspaw - brewer at large Forbes: The best answer here is probably no. Or at least no study I am aware of. The nature of the question does explain why beers are often referred to as styles. Tobias can better explain this part;-). If you wanted to do this scientifically you would have to obtain samples from many different water supplies and test them in one place, or in many places with the same procedures. Or you could use a series of synthetic water supplies (defined media). It's not just nitrogenous material that will effect the yeast but other nutrients and/or inhibitors in the water. In essence the effect I think you observed was one of improved yeast nutrition in certain areas. Tobias: The beer styles Forbes is refering to are related to the hardness of water. Typical styles are Pilsner style (very soft water, which results in light elegant beers with emphasis on hop character), Munich style (medium hard water, mainly Hydrogen carbonates, results in dark beers), Dortmund style (very hard water, mainly non carbonates, results in Exports), Burton style (hard water mainly sulphates, results in Burton Ales). Regarding the relation of water quality and yeast/fermentation performance I do not know of any extensive studies. As Forbes mentioned above it is not only nitrogenous compounds that effect the fermentation but also other "stimulating" or inhibiting substances. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:37:48 -0400 From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu> Subject: Western NY Homebrew Competition Hello, I realize this only applies to a small fraction of this readership, my apologies to the rest. The final results of the Western NY Homebrew Competition are in and posted at www.niagarabrewers.org . Judging of the approximately 250 entries was completed on Saturday, and the results posted Monday night. (In the past they were posted by Sunday, but the webmaster was out of town!) All entries were judged by at least two BJCP and one apprentice/novice judge. In the future, for those of you interested in sending your beer to a well organized and run competition, please keep this one in mind. It's a great competition to enter for those of you that enjoy quality judge feedback and nearly instant gratification! Cheers! Todd Snyder Buffalo, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:47:49 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: CAPS Kirk Annand of the Siebel Institute of Technology asked: >I have been looking at HBD for a little over a week and I see the term 'CAP' >often. What does this stand for? It is an abbreviation that I am not >familiar with. As the originator of the term in 1995, I'll answer. It stands for "Classic American Pilsner," also called pre-prohibition American lager, although I include early post-prohibition American lager in the category. I had a very popular keg of it in Cleveland last month at the MCAB hospitality suite - I am very sorry you didn't get a chance to taste it. I was very happy with it and it was very popular. It is essentially the beer that was brewed by German and Bohemian immigrant brewers beginning in the later 19th Century when faced with domestic ingredients. It in particular includes the use of cereal adjuncts and domestic hops, at least for bittering. This is the flavorful North American lager that has been reduced in flavor over the last decades, especially since, oh, say WWII, as brewers discovered that lighter, less bitter beers sold better, probably because people would drink more and people who didn't like flavorful beers drank them. (This doesn't seem to have been a problem in Germany or Bohemia). While not all North American lagers of a century ago or so were in the Pilsner style, it seems that this style was the most popular. It is certainly the progenitor of today's mass market North American lagers. I was inspired by articles by George Fix in Zymurgy and Brewing Techniques, Ben Jankowski in BT, and others to try to recreate and resurrect this wonderful style. My call to arms was the article "Reviving the Classic American Pilsner - A Shamefully Neglected Style" in Brewing Techniques, September/October 1995 http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue3.5/renner.html (see also the Fix and Jankowski articles at that site). I have progressed in my thoughts since this early, somewhat naive article, but it got the ball rolling. The style became recognized for competition in AHA and BJCP (Beer Judge Certification Program) competitions, thanks to the work of several other amateur brewers. It has since become very popular with home brewers and has taken many medals in lager categories, and even some of Best of Show awards. I am not aware of any commercial brewers who are regularly brewing what I would call a classic version, although Capitol 1900 (Wisconsin) professes to be an example. I find it too light. Doemens-trained Fred Scheer brewed a batch at Nashville's Bosco Brewpub last summer and will do another batch for American Beer Month this July. Fred has tasted my CAPs and is a fan of the style. Quite a remarkable thing for a third generation German brewer! Since 1995, I have continued to research this style and refine my own brewing of it. I have relied heavily on the 1902 American Handy Book of the Brewing, Malting and Auxiliary Trades (on-line at http://hubris.engin.umich.edu/Wahl/ ) and other primary sources. I summarized my (then) latest thoughts in Sept/Oct 2000 Zymurgy in the article "The revival of the Classic American Pilsner." I will be glad to send you a copy of this article. Even since then I have made a few further minor modifications. I like to brew to a target of 12.5P with 22% corn (by weight) with a cereal mash, and a bitterness in the mid to upper 30s IBU, using Cluster hops for bitterness and noble hops for flavor and aroma. I mash-in the main mash at 145F for the first rest and add the cereal mash to aim at 158F for a second rest (although this usually takes some additional heat). Final gravity is 2.5P. I add my flavor hops to the first wort rather than a last 15 minute addition following the article in Brauwelt International, by Preis, Nuremberg, and Mitter; vol IV, p. 308, 1995 (see a summary of this technique at http://brewery.org/library/1stwort.html). This is a wonderful method that I gather from your earlier answer that you may not be entirely familiar with. It seems to add hop flavor that is stabilized and is not boiled out, as well as a pleaseing bitterness. This method was apparently used in Germany 100 years ago and then lost. Although I can find no reference to its being used in North America then, it is entirely possible since many brewers here were trained in Germany. I hope this helps, and perhaps inspires you to try brewing a batch of this wonderful style. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:40:03 -0500 From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com> Subject: insulating mash tun, rims > >I called the major names advertised in >Zymurgy, my email list & from a quick internet >search to find a wrap-around insulator for the >kegs. Several of the places I called couldn't >understand exactly what I wanted & at the >very least, didn't have it. No one had anything >in this regard. The closest I found was a >jacket for a corny keg to keep it cool outside >the freezer. I was told one solution was to >wrap plastic around the kegs & it would retain >heat better. See if you can find sheets of Rubatex. This is a closed cell foam product used to insulate pipes (much denser than the stuff sold in hardware stores) but it also comes in sheets. Made by RBX Corp (rbxcorp.com). Grainger sells it. It's easy to work with and isn't very expensive. I've used it to make corny jackets and insulate my mash tun... <http://hairydogbrewery.com/equip/img/mashtun.jpg> I like it because it washes off easily and doesn't retain liquid. A little bit of contact adhesive and velcro makes a removable jacket. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:11:06 -0400 From: "TED MAJOR" <tidmarsh at charter.net> Subject: re: Zymurgy Magazine Rubbermaid Bulkhead Plans I haven't seen the Zymurgy plans so I can't comment on those, but I can describe what I've done. I use made a bulkhead fitting from a 1/4" NPT close nipple, brass washers, 1/4" NPT ball valve, and 3/8" compression-1/4" NPT adapter. To seal, I made a rubber gasket out of a Fass-Frisch mini-keg bung. I cut off most of the bung, leaving just enough of a lip to center the washer and pipe nipple in the cooler's drain hole. Tidmarsh Major Birmingham, Ala. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:15:51 -0500 From: "Smith,Brian H" <bhsmith at bogmil.gylrd.com> Subject: FW: Keg isulation..... > Gary, > > I would think that the easiest isulation would be a hot water heater > blanket. They are coated on the outside with a plastic or vinyl > sheeting(I think some may be done this way on both sides) and are very > available at lowes/home desprate/wally world/etc. I would think that a > keg wouldn't be any larger in dia. than a hot water heater. > > Brian Smith > Big Ring Brewery > Bogalusa, La > > > Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:45:26 -0500 From: "John R. Prather" <rodpr at iquest.net> Subject: Fitting placement on Keg Based Systems For you who have made your systems using beer, Kegs... Where did you place your fitting, and WHY? That would include... On HLT. - Output circulation - Return lines.. if any... - any lines feeding Counterflow Heating (I prefer to use a Herm as opposed to a RIMS) On Lauter Tun. - Siphon Line Height... ( i'm especially interested in this) . Should it be above or below the Grain Line? . Below would Insure that the Siphon would never be lost. - Return Line - Any Others I might have missed... And Any suggestions about the Boiling Vessel, too.. Been a while since I posted... How about it guys.. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:02:58 -0700 From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net> Subject: Re: Bulkhead Assembly in Zymurgy Doug asks if anyone has built the bulkhead assembly for the Gott coolers in a fairly recent issue of Zymurgy, because he is having leakage around the outside washer. Well, I started heading toward the bathroom to look for that issue when I realized that he was probably talking about MY article! Small world, eh? The black rubber O-ring on the inside of the cooler should provide all of the water tight seal. The washer on the outside of the cooler (which is what Doug asked about) is only there to provide a spacer to allow the threads to tighten snugly so that the rubber washer Inside the cooler will provide a tight seal. Then it won't (or shouldn't) leak. And you know what works really well for that spacer? Cut a slice from 3/4 inch PVC tubing. It's the right diameter, and you can customize the thickness with sandpaper to get it just right. Good Brewing, John John Palmer Monrovia, CA How To Brew - the online book http://www.howtobrew.com/sitemap.html Homepage http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer Let there be Peace on Earth. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:33:30 -0400 From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com> Subject: tripel yeasts Pete in Syracuse asks about yeast choice for a triple. I have done 2 all-grain (except candi sugar) tripels in the last few years. First time I used 1214. Not a favorite. Last one was using White Labs Platinum Series Strong Golden ale. Much nicer. I used this prior in a belgian pale that was also quite nice. I know that George DePiro down at the PumpStation in Albany prefers a wit yeast (I think from Wyeast) for his strong golden/triple. It has a more earthy flavor. Good luck with the brew. Pete Czerpak in Albany, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:43:15 -0700 (PDT) From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com> Subject: Yeast for Belgian Strong Ale In HBD#3946, Bob Boland had this to say about yeast for strong Belgian ales. >Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 23:02:08 EDT >From: RBoland at aol.com >Subject: Yeast for Belgian Strong Ale >Peter Ensminger is looking for the right yeast for his Belgian Strong and >wants to get that earthy, musty character. He was leaning toward Wyeast >1214. I'm not familiar with the White labs yeasts, but agree with his >selection of 1214. The Trappist and Abby yeasts are good for Dubbles and >Tripels, but I consider their flavor too strong and inappropriate for a >Strong Ale. By the way, I don't believe that musty, earthy flavor is a >typical characteristic of Belgian yeasts, or the beers in Belgium. It >appears to me (and others) to be a flavor contributed by aging in contact >with natural corks. Try a side by side tasting of capped and corked Duvel or >Jenlain; my experience is that the capped beers don't exhibit the damp >basement character. I happen to enjoy it and was surprised that I rarely >tasted it in Belgium. While in Belgium a year ago, I got the idea about musty and also highly pheonolic is it is caused by abuse in shipping to the US. Dark strong ales like Rochfort, Westvlerten, Kasteel dark are relative clean, not phenolic. Yes, some fruit. Westvlerten has a hoppy aroma at the cafe across from the abbey. Even the lambics aren't highly phenolic there. The horse blanket description does fit either. Yes, they are sour. This is an area where the BJCP style descriptions appear to be inacurate to me. They are based on what we taste in an imported version of a beer. ===== Leo Vitt Rochester MN Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:51:58 -0400 From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net> Subject: Re: expressions Having been in the US Navy, I know about the P's and Q's expression. Sailors were paid once a month, and ran a tab in the bars between paydays. Rumor has it they used to keep track of pints and quarts on a chalkboard for each sailor in the bar. Seems unlikely, but regardless of whether it was on a chalkboard, a book, whatever, unscrupulous barkeepers would add pints or quarts never consumed, (especially when the guy was drunk) so it was up to the sailor to know what he owed. Also, drunk sailors were sometimes notorious for buying rounds for the house, which would add significantly to the Ps and Q's owed! But this goes back to sailors and running bar tabs. Bill Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:47:36 -0700 From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca> Subject: In search of Ball lock keg fitting Hi Everybody, perhaps someone out there can help me I am looking for a ball lock keg fitting. But it must be a tiny bit shorter than the standard ones. Just a few milimeters would do. Anybody ever see one? Know where I can get it? John Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 18:03:54 +0000 From: "Tobias Fischborn" <fischborn at hotmail.com> Subject: Siebel response - Troy Hager Yeast Viability and Pitching Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:55:09 -0700 From: Troy Hager <thager at hcsd.k12.ca.us> Subject: Siebel Week Thanks in advance for doing this! My question is about yeast viability and pitching amounts. Much has been discussed about these issues and it is well known that most commercial breweries maintain viability of 95% or more in the yeast that they pitch as well as pitching the correct volumes. With lots of very fresh yeast available and fully equipped labs it is not a big deal to test for and maintain such standards. At the homebrew level it is a bit more trouble. Many discussions on the HBD as well as in many books and studies have stated that pitching less that 90% viable yeast will be detrimental to the finished product. Specifically George Fix in his books have stated that to him and his experience pitching a large amount of healthy yeast is the number one factor in making high quality beer. Questions: 1. How important is viability? For example if I pitched twice the volume I needed for my 5 gal batch, let's say 10 oz. of yeast slurry, but it was only 50% viable, could I expect to produce a high quality beer from this? I guess another way to state it is - How do dead yeast cells effect beer quality? Tobias: I absolutely agree with George Fix. It is very important to pitch enough viable yeast. If you have a lower viability it makes sense to compensate with a higher pitching rate up to a certain limit. If you have 50 % dead yeast in your harvested yeast, it indicates that the physiological condition of your yeast in general is not good. It is different with dry yeast. Here there is always a certain percentage of yeast killed during the drying process. Therefore the percentage of viable cells in your rehydrated dry yeast slurry is not an indication of the physiological condition of your rehydrated yeast. Dead yeast can have a negative influence on the flavour of the beer but you need quite a lot of dead yeast. Dead yeast can have a negative influence on the foam stability because fatty acids are released. But this is more of a concern at the end of the fermentation. At the beginning these fatty acids can be used by viable yeast to reproduce themself. 2. Let's say that I have the same 10 oz. 50% viable yeast slurry but I step it up with a 1 gal starter. Now I have increased the viability percentage but still have a lot of dead yeast cells in the mix. Would they have an effect on the finished product? Would it be advisable to wash this slurry to remove most of the dead cells before stepping it up? Tobias: If you stepping up your yeast with a starter and the yeast is growing well you are also diluting down the percentage of dead yeast cells because you produce viable cells and the amount of dead yeast should remain the same. If you are stepping up 10 times you are reducing the portion of dead yeast approximately by 10 times. So any effect of dead yeast is deminshed. I don't think you have to wash your yeast before stepping up. I also can't think of an easy practicle method to remove dead yeast from your yeast slurry. 3. Is lag time, assuming sanitization procedures are very good, a good indicator of the health of the yeast? Forbes: No, I would prefer to use lag phase as a reasonable indicator of yeast performance, but the differences seen may be due to other factors other than viability. The significance in lag phase between e.g 6 and 9 hrs may not be great if the 9h lag phase yeast has a more vigorous fermentation. So when I say reasonable, 12h lag sounds long but if the fermentation is done in 2 days good. 6h lag phase could be "short" but the yeast may take 4 days to ferment. Lag phase is essentially an adaptation phase, so the more adaptation you are expecting of the yeast the longer the lag phase may be, without meaning the fermentation is bad. It also depends on the yeast you are starting from. Freshly propagated yeast should start fermentation quicker than a dry yeast or refrigerated yeast, but this may not mean the fermentation is better. Some might argue that the adaptation is what the yeast requires to do the job that is expected of it. 4. Finally, as a homebrewer without a hemacytometer to count yeast - I would like to get a general idea of the viability of a sample. I follow standard procedures for diluting and staining with methelyne blue but just use a slide and cover plate viewing at 400X. If I see less than 1 out of every 10 cells that stain blue - I should be in the ballpark of >90% viable cells correct? Forbes: True. The hemacytometer only offers you the ability of studying a defined volume therefore an accurate cell number. You still need to have a good sample under the microscope to make meaningful results. 200-300 cells in your counting regime should ensure you are sampling a good number. You might want to move your field of view over 2-3 areas on your slide to ensure you are sampling enough of your population. Again, thanks for your time! Troy Hager Technology Specialist Crocker Middle School Hillsborough, CA 94010 650-548-4242 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 14:07:49 -0400 From: brewjohn4 at netscape.net Subject: more complaints I find it very interesting that when our homebrew community is given the "honor" of asking questions to Seibel, that we are suddenly innundated with posts from pro-brewers, asking questions which have little or nothing to do about homebrewing issues. I find this backs-up my previous post where I stated that I don't see what these people have in common with us. I'm certainly not brewing 120bbl at a time, as one of these posts refered to. I would even wonder if this Seibel "opportunity" isn't a veiled attempt by the pro-brewing community use homebrewers as a front for free advice. Where are these pro-brewers when Seibel week isn't happening? John Bowman Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:08:57 -0400 From: "Greg Smith" <barnbrew at ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Slow Starting Fermentation Greetings again, Second post in two days. Who knew? Anyway, last Thursday I made a 10-gallon batch o' brew. I added two 'vials' of White Labs yeast (a bit on the old side, I admit) and waited to see my bubbles. As of last night (4 days later), there was nothing happening. So I was thinking of adding two packets of Wyeast today. But then this morning, I noticed that things were starting. I figure about every 40 seconds or so, there would be a bubble. Now, 7 hours later, it's more active - about every 6-7 seconds. Long story not made any shorter - should I add the extra yeast? Will this change the flavor in a bad way? Or, will the original yeast be fine and should I just let it get on its way? I'm not too worried about sticking to style, I just don't want to make things worse by adding a different strain. I was using a White Labs East Coast Ale - and the new yeast is a Wyeast American Ale. Many Thanks, Greg Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 20:29:17 -0400 From: Ken Pendergrass <kenp794 at earthlink.net> Subject: Zymurgy saison recipe I know I saved it somewhere but I cannot find it now when I need it. Would you be so kind as to email the traditional saison recipe from Zymurgy, July/August 2001 page 56? Thanks for the help. best regards, Ken Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 20:32:56 -0400 From: Ken Pendergrass <kenp794 at earthlink.net> Subject: Bell's Best Brown I want to brew something similar to Bell's Best Brown Ale. Just to be sure I have my brown styles straight is this one considered a Texas style? And for the hop experts what hops do you think they use? Thanks again, Ken Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 20:40:19 -0500 From: "Partner" <Partner at Netdirect.net> Subject: Dehumidifier H2O I went down to my laundry room and began to wash some clothes and this thought struck me, like a '56 Mack Truck broadsiding a telephone booth. If I use Water from my Dehumidifier, after a boil to sterilize, I'm basically using demineralized H2O. Pure..... Water. Soft as a baby's...... Just an Idea. but I now have a source for pure water... boiling in my hot liquor tank would take care of any Cootie's. Byron 206.9, 212.1 Apparent That makes it South of Chicago, and North of Memphis, In the Heart of the Blues!!! Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:03:08 -0700 From: "Kirk Annand" <kirk.annand at ns.sympatico.ca> Subject: Siebel Reply - Homebrew Oxidation Peter: Sorry for the late reply but I was unfamiliar with Campden tablets. I gather from your latest posting (HBD 3945) that they are anti-oxidants made with sulphites - probably potassium metabisulphite. I think that oxidation in homebrews may be a serious problem if the beer is bottled. If the beer is filtered and does not have the protection of yeast in suspension them the beer will probably be oxidized and change character fairly quickly. Both sulphites and ascorbic acid will work if used correctly but I not a believer in them. As you mentioned in HBD 3945 there is a debate as to their usefulness / effectiveness. They are band-aids meant to cover up weaknesses in the beer production process. Major world brewers have been the leaders in eliminating oxygen pick-up at all stages of the brewing and bottling process. Most of the world's big brewers do not use these type of anti-oxidants because of improvements they have made in equipment and control procedures. I have heard some homebrewers refer to the big breweries as 'chemical brewers', a charge which is now simply not true. They now prefer to control the process rather than treat the problem with additives. I think that small brewing enthusiasts should do the same. There are also health concerns regarding sulphite anti-oxidants. I find it troubling that most vintners still use these as part of their process. It is time for them to follow the brewing industry and reduce or eliminate their use. Another reason why beer is the best beverage! Kirk Annand, S.I.T. Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 01:18:27 -0400 From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com Subject: Siebel Week: Homebrew oxidation It has been said that homebrew oxidation is a common and serious problem. Is this true? If so, what practical steps can homebrewers take to avoid oxidation. Campden tablets? Ascorbic Acid? Others? Cheerio! Peter A. Ensminger Syracuse, NY (Thanks Gump/Siebel/Lallemand for your support) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:32:45 -0700 From: "Kirk Annand" <kirk.annand at ns.sympatico.ca> Subject: Siebel Reply - Hop Bitterness Jim: I think that I dealt with the questions that you raised in my reply on Hop Isomerization in HBD 3943 and Hop Bag Use in HBD 3945. The alpha acids dissolve into boiling wort quickly and isomerization takes place well within the hour that you mentioned. Adding hops to boiling wort to solubilize the bittering substances and isomerize them is a relatively inefficient way to utilize hop acids. Even the finest of brewhouses will only extract about 35% of the potential bittering value and transfer to the final beer. This is part of the reason that there are so many hop extracts available today. The bittering acids can be efficiently extracted in hop processing plants and then the brewer can make efficient use of the hop product. These products also are efficient to ship and can be made with special characteristics (for instance they can remove the chemical that makes beer go 'skunky' when light hits it). Kirk Annand, S.I.T. Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 07:47:17 -0500 From: jal at novia.net Subject: Siebel Week: hop bitterness Hopped wort should boil one hour to achieve the full (or nearly full) bitterness potential from the hops. My question: is the hour required for the alpha acids (and other bittering components) to be separated from the hop bits (blossoms or pellets) and released into the wort, or for the isomerization (?) of the alpha acids? If the hour is mostly for the isomerization, when are the alpha acids released? This question came up when the kettle boiled over and some first wort hops dissolved in the wort? Thanks, Jim Larsen Omaha, NE Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:02:59 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: FW: Siebel Week-Lyn Kruger Folks, I am forwarding this on behalf of Dr. Kruger...whose messages were rejected by HBD for a variety of sins. (Hey, she's a brewer...not a geek!) From: Kruger, Lyn Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:01 PM To: 'post@hbd.org' Subject: Siebel Week responses Hi All, It has been our pleasure to answer your questions during Siebel week. We will be checking this week to make sure that all your questions have been answered. So, if your question has not yet been answered, look out for the response this week! I would like to thank my colleagues for taking the time to participate in this event. Cheers, Lyn Kruger President Siebel Institute of Technology Return to table of contents
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