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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  John's Panty Wad (mohrstrom)
  Scottish 60 recipe advice (engwar1)
  Re: CAPS (Tony Barnsley)
  RE:  more complaints ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: expressions ("Walter H. Lewis III")
  Rubbermaid bulkhead fitting ("Dan Listermann")
  How long does milled malt last? (Kelly Grigg)
  What is Seibel? (Kelly Grigg)
  National Homebrew Competition score sheets? ("Daniel Stedman")
  More Common Expressions ("Larry Bristol")
  First Wort Hopping ("Kirk Annand")
  Dehumidifier H2O ("Mark P.")
  re: homebrewer to microbrewer (Rama Roberts)
  big rye usage ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Excessive phenolics ("Doug Moyer")
  Stop the whining and page down... (Troy Hager)
  The HBD story... (Pat Babcock)
  Sugar Fermentabilities ("Kirk Annand")
  Siebel Reply - Modern Wort Boiling ("Kirk Annand")
  re: first wort hopping ("Keith Lemcke")


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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 07:28:03 -0400
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: John's Panty Wad

John Bowman, hiding somewhere in Cyberspace opines:
>>>
I find it very interesting that when our homebrew community is given
the "honor" of asking questions to Seibel, that we are suddenly innundated 
[sic]
with posts from pro-brewers
<<<

John - try to pay attention, OK?

Rob is combining posts from AoB, along with those from HBD.  I'm sure that 
a brewer of your caliber can't gain from those replies, so please feel 
free to use the PgDn key (and, maybe, the Spell Check function), and spare 
us from your whining.


Mark in Kalamazoo



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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 05:17:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: engwar1 <engwar1 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Scottish 60 recipe advice

I'm attempting to calculate the malt bill for a
Scottish 60, a style I've never brewed before, using
the Designing Great Beers Book. My OG should be around
1030-1034 according to styles guidlines and I'm
brewing 10 gallons. The grain bill just seems light to
me. Wanted some opinions. Here's what I have...


Pale Malt     80% 10.75 lbs
Roast Barley  2%  .33   lbs
Munich Malt   5%  .66   lbs
Smoked Malt   5%  .66   lbs
Dextrine Malt 8%  1     lbs

About 13 lbs for a 10 gallon batch just seems on the
light side. Is it because this is a low gravity beer
or are my calculations in error?

Opinions?



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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 13:18:11 +0100
From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk>
Subject: Re: CAPS

Jeff Explained to Kirk That

CAP > It stands for "Classic American Pilsner," also called 
    > pre-prohibition American lager, 

Then Said

> I had a very popular keg of it in Cleveland last month

He also was kind enough to send some back to me via some English friends who
were visiting him, (Jeff you are a gentleman). It had been bottled straight
from the keg, suffered the indignities of flying across the pond, and then
mishandled by the UK postal service. When it arrived with me I was suffering
from a cold so it languished in my fridge whispering alluringly to me
whenever I opened the door.

This Sunday I managed to get 40L of Adnams Southwold bitter, IMNSHO the
finest example of an English Bitter Ale in the world, into a fermenter. I
was feeling thirsty and decided that the time had come. Jeff's Fathers
Moustache was brought reverently out of the fridge and with all due ceremony
the bottle was opened and poured into a glass. It was crystal clear, and a
wonderful pale yellow colour, much paler than my poor imitation. Could I
detect some blackcurrant in the aroma? Hmm interesting, and the taste . . .
 . . . I could launch into Kleinisms here but won't. Suffice it to say It was
Crisp and Dry, with a wonderful bitterness, as the beer warmed the malt
profile became more evident. Given Jeff's mashing schedule I was expecting a
much heavier, sweeter beer, which was my result. Needless to say I know
which beer I prefer and what to aim for now.

Thank you Jeff 

- --

Wassail!

The Scurrilous Aleman (ICQ 46254361)
Schwarzbad Lager Brauerei, Blackpool, Lancs, UK
Rennerian Coordinates (I am Not Worthy! I am Not Worthy!)

This message has been scanned by F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange
as part of the Council's e-mail and internet policy.


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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:24:16 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE:  more complaints

John Bowman posts:
"I find it very interesting that when our homebrew community is given
the "honor" of asking questions to Seibel, that we are suddenly innundated
with posts from pro-brewers, asking questions which have little or
nothing to do about homebrewing issues.  I find this backs-up my previous
post where I stated that I don't see what these people have in common 
with us.  I'm certainly not brewing 120bbl at a time, as one of these
posts refered to.  I would even wonder if this Seibel "opportunity"
isn't a veiled attempt by the pro-brewing community use homebrewers as 
a front for free advice.  Where are these pro-brewers when Seibel week
isn't happening?"  

Surly John's post was with tongue firmly planted in his cheek.  But in case
not everyone recognizes this posibility, you should know that HBD isn't the
only brewing forum.  There is a moderated discussion forum for IBS members
and Rob Moline posted the offer to ask questions for them as well, but
requested that rather than have questions and answers posted to several
fora, that all the questions and answers be posted on HBD for all to see.
So no conspiracy.  The pro-brewers are always there, in another dimension of
cyber-space...

Thanks to Rob for setting up this opportunity for all of us and to our
guests who provided their time to answer our questions.

Dave Houseman




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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:35:56 -0400
From: "Walter H. Lewis III" <wlewis at alliedlogistics.com>
Subject: Re: expressions

I've heard the pints and quarts corolation for years, but my experience
comes from the study of statistics in college. There I learned that P
represented the probability of success and Q represented the probability
of failure. Therefore mind your P's and Q's wound be a warning to
carefully consider your outcome before beginning a venture.

Walt



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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:19:08 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Rubbermaid bulkhead fitting

<Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 05:02:38 -0700 (PDT)
>From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
>Subject: re: Zymurgy Magazine Rubbermaid Bulkhead Plans

>I finally got sick of dealing with and found that it is possible to squeeze
>another stock grommet in the hole from the outside of the cooler.  A piece
of
>1/2" copper then fits nice and tight.  You could also use any standard
bulkhead
>fitting (that fits thru the grommet) because there is a good rubber seal on
>each side.

A simple minikeg bung makes a great bulkhead fitting for coolers and a 1/2"
copper pipe.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com






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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:33:12 -0500
From: Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: How long does milled malt last?

Hi all!!

Well, I've got my second all grain batch going, and I'm really getting into
this. I just got a friend of mine, who introduced me to extract brewing, 
finished with his first batch of all grain.

Now, we're wanting to go in together, and buy malt by the bag. Trouble is,
neither of us has a mill at this time....and we don't want to wait to get
one to start buying in bulk. I think I found a place from here that sells
wholesale...and will to us since his products are no in this area. They will
mill the malt for an extra $2 a bag.

I'm planning on getting some large rubber maid plastic tubs with snap on
covers, to store my grain in. MY question is...how long will pre-crushed
malt last before it has to be used or starts deteriorating in some manner?

Also, so I can compare price, can any of ya'll out there who buy grain in
bulk give me some weblinks/phone numbers of places you use?

TIA,

Kelly
- -- 


- ------------------

"Oh, you hate your job? Why didn't you say so? There's a support
group for that. It's called EVERYBODY, and they meet at the bar."

- ------------------

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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:43:47 -0500
From: Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: What is Seibel?

I've seen this in a bunch of the subjects of recent posts, but, I
can't from reading tell what Seibel is...

Can someone enlighten me?
:-)

K
- -- 


- ------------------

"Oh, you hate your job? Why didn't you say so? There's a support
group for that. It's called EVERYBODY, and they meet at the bar."

- ------------------


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:02:00 -0500
From: "Daniel Stedman" <playflatball at hotmail.com>
Subject: National Homebrew Competition score sheets?

Hi - has anyone received their scoresheets back from the first round of the 
NHC yet? Just curious - I haven't received anything.

Dan in Minnetonka



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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:10:00 -0500
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: More Common Expressions

While it is nice to be (semi-)quoted, it is nicer still when one is
quoted correctly.  Of course, the majority of people easily recognize
the difference between what one says and what another alleges they
said.  So while not particularly beer related, I think this one is
appropriate on this occasion:

"Shipshape and Bristol fashion" - everything is neat and tidy.
This saying comes from one of the aspects of the harbor in Bristol,
England.  The difference in the water level between high and low tides
in the Bristol harbor is one of the largest in the world, about 30
feet.  In the old days, before a floating harbor was built, if not
properly constructed and laden, at low tide ships in the harbor would
either break their backs or their cargoes would shift.  Because of
this, Bristol ships were always first class in these respects.

I suppose it does not come as too much of a surprise that my roots are
there, which only helps to prove that everything associated with the
name "Bristol" is first class.  Even when it is used in slang.  For
example, saying someone has "big Bristols" is a classy (?!?) way of
describing the female anatomy.  Which brings to mind...

"To drink a toast" - Soggy burnt bread?
In olden times, it was customary to put pieces of toast into tankards
of beer in order to improve the flavor (apparently this is a cure for
oxidation effects).  It seems that while a celebrated beauty of the
time was bathing, one of her admirers took a glass of the bath water
and drank to her health to the assembled company.  Another admirer,
probably already a bit "toasted", announced as he jumped into the bath,
"Although I like not the liquor, I would have the toast!"

I will drink to that, and to all Bristols everywhere!


Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX   AR=[1093.6,223.2]
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 13:20:23 -0700
From: "Kirk Annand" <kirk.annand at ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: First Wort Hopping

John:

That is the first time I have ever been called 'a God of Brewing'!  I like
it!!  I might have it put on my business cards.

One of the things that I find interesting (and a bit confusing) is the
different terminologies that are used to describe brewing methods.  In this
case I responded to the example that was given me.  I have heard of the term
'first wort hopping' used in the same sense as 'single addition hopping' but
that is not what was meant in this case - if I read the example right.  Let
me know what your definition of FWH is.  In discussions with brewers we
learn new terms and methods and hopefully it makes brewing more interesting
and the beer better.

It is true that the more I learn about brewing the less I feel that I know.
It's a great hobby and a great career because of  the constant learning.

Regards,
Kirk Annand, S.I.T.


Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 22:23:31 -0600
From: "John Adsit" <jadsit at attbi.com>
Subject: Seibel and First Wort Hopping

Seibel tells us:

> The FWH schedule that you mention looks like a variation of this 'classic'
> hop addition schedule.  I see no harm or advantage from it.

And the illusion is shattered.

These Gods of Brewing don't have the slightest clue what First Wort Hopping
is.  What a disappointment.  You have to hold everything else they say
suspect after an answer like that.

John Adsit
Boulder, CO
jadsit at attbi.com








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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:06:01 -0400
From: "Mark P." <markp at waveworks.net>
Subject: Dehumidifier H2O

Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 20:40:19 -0500
From: "Partner" <Partner at Netdirect.net>
Subject: Dehumidifier H2O

I  went down to my laundry room and began to wash some clothes and this
thought struck me, like a '56 Mack Truck broadsiding a telephone booth.

If I use Water from my Dehumidifier, after a boil to sterilize, I'm
basically using demineralized H2O.   Pure..... Water.  Soft as a
baby's......

Just an Idea. but I now have a source for pure water... boiling in my hot
liquor tank would take care of any Cootie's.


Byron
206.9, 212.1   Apparent

That makes it South of Chicago, and North of Memphis, In the Heart of the
Blues!!!




______________

I got some advice about this from a telescope forum. Someone had the great 
idea of using dehumidifier water to clean a telescope mirror.  Bad 
Idea.   Since air is constantly blowing through the coils the H2O will be 
contaminated with dust. This guy tried to wash film in it and was amazed by 
the amount of dust in the H2O.


Mark P.

"The early bird may get the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."


fax  703.527.1308




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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:46:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at eng.sun.com>
Subject: re: homebrewer to microbrewer

Roger- I'm catching up on old HBD's and saw your post about advice on
stepping up to a micro from homebrewing. I found something through a
search engine a while ago and haven't been able to find it again for you-
it was such a good read, I'll do my best to describe it in hopes someone
will recognize it and send a link:

It was about a homebrewer who had a friend in the restaurant business that
wanted to offer his brew to his customers. People liked it so much, this
brewer (and a buddy or two) had to repeatedly step up their production
from monthly batches to weekly 10gal batches or something crazy.  A lot of
the write up was about finding large kettles and other equipment on the
cheap, and about learning how to brew such large batches. Also some info
on how he just didn't want to be in the brewhouse as much as he was
because he had a full-time job he liked (a teacher I think); and (if I
remember right) a side note defending their cost analysis that extracts
volumes they dealt with. 

I'm fairly sure it wasn't a post to the HBD, but was a write up in a
homebrew club's newsletter from a few years ago.

hope this leads to something-
Rama Roberts
San Francisco bay area







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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:59:18 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: big rye usage

Just wanted to post about fairly high malted rye usage.....

On Saturday morning while watching the snow fall here in mid-May in upstate
NY, I brewed a Rye Pale ale dubbed "Crystal Centennial Rye".  This was
modelled after Hop Rod Rye from Bear Republic in NoCal but lower key with
lower OG and lower hopping to be enjoyable for more pints at a mid-summer
wedding. Name is derived by use of Centennial hops for bittering and Crystal
hops for aroma, flavor, and even - mash hopped.

I used 24% malted rye by weight also with about 4% malted wheat in addition
to the usual suspects in a 1.056 pale ale recipe.  No problems with my batch
sparge.  First runnings were drained at about 152degF while the batch sparge
water was added at about 178degF in one load.

I have to admit, massive coldbreak though that took days to settle in the
fermentor.  In fact, its still settling and compacting in my hydrometer tube
in the refrigerator (must be wall effects since the tube is ~1 inc
diameter).  Typically, my 15% rye ale recipes came out orange-amber colored.
With all the rye, this one is closer to red-amber atleast by how the samples
looked after settling.

Pete Czerpak
Albany, NY

PS. And thanks to the Siebel Week Team for answering questions and offering
their expertise. The questions from the pro-brewers were refreshing as well.


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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 18:30:44 -0400
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Excessive phenolics

Brewers,
    I've got a batch of wit in the keg. Infection? Wild yeast? I dunno, but
it has an excessive phenolic character. Almost a mouthful of swimming pool
water kinda chlorophenolic. Is there anything I can do to make my tastebuds
happy again? This is enough to dump the batch if I can't fix it. All
suggestions more than welcome!

Brew on!

Doug Moyer
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'"
     ~ Dave Barry





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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 16:24:02 -0700
From: Troy Hager <thager at hcsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Stop the whining and page down...

Fellow HBDers,

It floors me to see complaints and whinings about the gracious people from
Seibel who have given probably hours of their own time to respond to the
multitude of questions from this community. And what is more is that Rob has
gone out of his way to set this up once again out of his kindness to give
HBers one more resource - to hear and ask questions of current experts in
the field. Shame on him and them for going out of their way for us!
Allusions about Seibel personnel being all-knowing brew GODS are just plain
stupidity. Brewjohn4 wonders and rants on about conspiracies of the
pro-brewing community trying to infiltrate our homebrew community and use
the HBD to proffer "free advice"????  Does anyone understand that one???

One thing that makes the HBD such a wonderful place is the diversity of
knowledge, character, location, background, information, respect, manners,
etc. that is all part of the HBD experience. I love this and want to keep it
that way. I am personally for hearing *all* sides of the story no matter how
eloquent, vicious, rudely worded, or "professional" it is and making my own
decisions about the topic. This goes for the extended quibblings of Steve
A., Dr. Pivo and others as well as from these Seibel folks... It is what
makes it interesting. I say let it all come out and then you take what its
worth for you at your own place and level of brewing... 

Obviously, by the amount of questions posted and the relatively few
complainers, most have enjoyed questioning and hearing from the folks at
Seibel - I am included in this group. I guess there is always someone to
rain on the parade.

My thanks goes out to all those from Seibel who continue to answer questions
and to Rob for setting up this novel exchange of questions and ideas. This
is why I read the HBD.

Troy


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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 20:40:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: The HBD story...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Well! Not to be revisionist or anything, but I have just been
"filled in" on some perceived gaps in the HBD history! If you
have copied the HBD history onto your website, please check the
page at HBD.ORG and ensure you are presenting the corrected
version. I have it on good authority that the history as cited
on the page now better reflects the actual evolution of the HBD.
You might say that I have it right from the horse's mouth...

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie





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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 22:34:43 -0700
From: "Kirk Annand" <kirk.annand at ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Sugar Fermentabilities

Mike:

Many of these are much more commonly used by homebrewer's than commercial
brewers, partly because of cost in some cases but also because of strong
flavor notes.  Most of them are covered quite well by Charlie Papazian in
'The Complete Joy of Homebrewing' and 'The Home Brewer's Companion'.  A more
detailed description of these adjuncts is given in 'Malting and Brewing
Science - Volume 1, Malt and Sweet Wort' by Briggs, Hough, Stevens and
Young.  If you refer to these books you will get the information that you
requested.

The 'Malting and Brewing Science' Volumes 1 and 2 are about twenty years old
but still some of the best books ever written in English on the subject of
brewing.  They are 'exhaustive and technical' and fairly expensive but they
will be in a brewer's library forever.  On a personal note, I am a brewing
book freak.  As my wife will attest I have every book on the subject of beer
and brewing that I can get my hands on.  It is important to get as many
viewpoints on any brewing subject as possible in order to have a balanced
viewpoint.  It is also interesting to see the difference between the brewing
cultures of different countries.

The last adjunct that you have on your list is 'treacle' which is what the
British call molasses.  The water contents of the various items that you
list will also vary somewhat depending on the grade of adjunct that you
are interested in.  Suppliers should be able to provide you with technical
information
on the particular adjunct that you want to include in your recipe.  The
Internet is also a rich source of detailed information since these are used
mostly in foodstuffs, not mainly beer.

Kirk Annand, S.I.T.


Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 09:43:26 -0400
From: "Mike Dixon" <mpdixon at ipass.net>
Subject: Siebel Week: Sugar Fermentabilities

Sometime back I tried to do some research on fermentabilities of different
sugar sources and did not have much luck.  The sources I found were not very
specific on certain sugars and left out others altogether.  Some "sugars"
would of course vary by water content so I added in some average water
contents, but the average fermentability percentage of each sugar is what I
am after.  Also if you can tell me what the extract potential (p/p/g) is for
each sugar, and density of each sugar. Several of these I know, but I am
very interested to see what you have to say.

Here is the list I am interested in knowing the fermentability percentage,
extract potential, and density of:
Cane Sugar
Corn Sugar
Light Brown Sugar
Dark Brown Sugar
Invert Sugar (20% water)
Honey (17% water)
Molasses (25% water)
Maple Syrup (33% water)
Treacle (20% water)

Thank you very much for this opportunity.

Cheers,
Mike







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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 23:32:34 -0700
From: "Kirk Annand" <kirk.annand at ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Siebel Reply - Modern Wort Boiling

Troy (and Charles):

I think that 'Brauwelt International' is one of the best brewing magazines
in the world.  I would like to read the German language 'Brauwelt' but since
I don't speak or read German I am out in the cold.  The articles that you
quote extensively from were both technically interesting.  They raised
points of about wort quality versus energy saving.  The two major German
brewhouse manufacturers (Steinecker / Krones and Huppmann) have been
continually 'improving' the performance of their brewhouse equipment with
regards to energy saving, gentle wort handling, reduction of DMS and
reduction of overall evaporation rate.

You asked how this kind of information applies to homebrewing and the answer
is: NOT MUCH!  In order to get this degree of control these boiling
operations are computer controlled.  They measure and control total energy
that goes into the boiling of a batch, as well as many other parameters to
control the boil.  It is process integration and control at its finest.

Energy reduction is really the main aim of these systems while still
producing excellent wort quality.  They also are geared towards the German
beer industry which still makes all-malt beers.  German brewers are very
concerned about DMS reduction.   Many other brewers around the world are
also concerned but they have less of a problem because they use a percentage
of adjuncts which do not contribute to DMS.  The manufacturers will say that
all issues are equally important in designing one of these new boiling
systems.  One comment that I would make is that the articles in Brauwelt are
sometimes submitted by the manufacturer so there may be little discussion of
some of the problem areas.  There has never been a perfect piece of
equipment!

Most homebrew equipment and techniques hark back to an earlier time in
brewing and so guidance must be sought from what previous generations of
brewers used to believe about brewing.  Old brewers always said that it was
important to have a 'good rolling boil'.  A 'rolling boil' is obvious once
you see it and it is a controllable boil.  This type of boil often
translated to a total evaporation rate of around 10% -12% in a boil time of
60 - 90 minutes.  This boiled off undesirable volatiles, isomerized hop
acids, created a good floc for trub settling and used a controlled amount of
energy.  In a homebrew situation I think that total evaporation of 10 - 15%
is great.  Too fierce a boil starts to caramelize wort sugars and can be
detrimental to protein coagulation.  In many cases the difference between
boiling for 60 versus 90 minutes may be very subtle or negligible but it is
something to experiment with for different beers.

Kirk Annand, S.I.T.


Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 23:26:13 -0700
From: Charles Hager <hagerc at vcss.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Seibel Week

I hope I can squeeze this one in at the end of this wonderful week!

I have a question about differences in wort boiling issues at the commercial
level vs. homebrew level.

In the Feb. 2002 edition of Brauwelt, there was two interesting articles
regarding boiling wort. Both articles state the purpose of boiling wort:

 -concentration by evaporation
 -reduction of coagulable protein substances
 -deactivation of enzymes
 -boiling off undesirable aroma components
 -formation of aroma and flavor substances

The first article, entitled "Wort boiling - current state-of-the-art"
discusses issues that commercial breweries have when boiling wort and the
various methods. It summarizes the history of boiling technology from early
kettles with inadequate heating and wort movement (homogeneity) into 20th
century changes in design and heating capabilities with the introduction of
high-performance kettles with 2 hour + boil times and 12-16% evaporation.
In the last 30 years breweries have had to rethink their boiling techniques
because of energy conservation and environmental issues leading to decreased
boil times and evaporation rates. Current averages stated are 60 minutes at
6-8% evaporation rate. Boiling time and temperature are two variables that
breweries strive to balance. Issues dealing with this balance are stated as:

 -High Temp: coagulable nitrogen too low, DMS level ok, excessive coloration
of wort
 -Low Temp: coag. nit. ok, DMS levels too high
 -Long Time: coag. nit. too low, DMS levels ok
 -Short Time: coag. nit. ok, DMS too high

Interesting statements:

"Heating times are frequently too long and lead to a not inconsiderable loss
of coag. N, apart from causing high thermal stress which can be expressed by
the thiobarbituric acid index (TBI)."

"The objective of development work was to implement the following criteria
as fully as possible:
 -gentle boiling (coag. N, foam)
 -little free DMS in pitched wort
 -low thermal stress (TBI)
 -further reduction in total evaporation"

The second article, entitled "New wort boiling system using flash
evaporation" has this interesting statement:

"Thanks to modern automatic control equipment, the term "beer boiler" is
slowly but surely becoming a thing of the past. One should ask oneself if it
is still appropriate to subject the wort to nucleate boiling or whether it
should be possible to boil it without actually bringing it to a nucleate
boiling stage? This question can definitely be answered 'yes'. Looking again
at the criteria for wort boiling stated at the beginning, it becomes clear
that boiling of wort is necessary only for evaporating excess water and for
expelling undesirable aroma substances. All other parameters are a function
simply of temperature and circulation or wort."

Homebrewers do not have to deal with:
 -trying to lower energy costs/energy usage
 -wort homogeneity
 -trying to lower evaporation rates

With this in mind, which of these issues can be applied to homebrew wort
boiling?

>From my experience as a homebrewer having read many basic and advanced
homebrewing books as well as participating on the HBD for many years - is
seems to me that most all-grain homebrewers boil for 90 minutes with
evaporation rates of over 15% - usually 20-30% in some cases with big
propane burners. This long and violent boiling seems to be in conflict with
some of the information in these articles and indeed may have detrimental
effects. "Gentle" boiling was mentioned a few times in the articles and is
said to have a positive effects on coagulation of proteins. Long boiling
times are stated to have detrimental effects on protein coagulation. Low
"thermal stress" and evaporation rates of 6-10% are mentioned as goals of
the commercial breweries.

How does this information apply to homebrew boiling?
Which of these issues produce better beer, not just cuts down on energy
costs and time?
What is the difference between a 60-minute boil and a 90-minute boil
assuming a 10% or greater evaporation rate?

Thanks for your time and thoughts on this subject

Troy Hager
thager at hcsd.k12.ca.us
















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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 21:10:38 -0700
From: "Keith Lemcke" <klemcke at siebelinstitute.com>
Subject: re: first wort hopping

I have been looking for research information on first-wort hopping for a few
years now, and as you have probably found, there is not much available.  I
have checked the online abstracts of the American Society of Brewing
Chemists and found nothing dealing with a technical assessment of the
technique. I have found no substantial information in any of the brewing
textbooks I have seen, with the exception of Fix.

First-wort hopping seems to be more common among homebrewers than craft or
commercial brewers. I first started doing FWH (I am a homebrewer) when I
read about it in the Fix book "Analysis of Brewing Techniques" several years
ago. The book (pg.45/1997ed.) makes reference to the results of Preis &
Mitter supporting Jean de Clerck's theory that early additions are superior
to late, the theory being that hop oil constituents are more effectively
"bound with wort constituents". Unfortunately, I have been unable to find
copies of the Preis & Mitter analysis from Brauwelt.

Actually, the most complete analysis I have seen on the practice is on the
web at http://www.brewery.org/library/1stwort.html , and was based on work
by Fix and others at the HBD, and contains a summary of the Brauwelt
analysis.  The initial tests were done using Tettnanger and Saaz, which
could both be considered bittering and aromatic hops.  The results seem to
favor only a first-wort addition, without an "end of boil" addition.
Unfortunately, the article lacks specific sensory panel evaluations as to
beer characteristics, making it difficult to quantify the advantages of such
differences in techniques.

You will see as well that the article mentions the bittering contributions
of the FWH additions, but does not quantify the level of contributions
within the summary text.  You would need to adjust your hopping rate to
compensate for the increased bittering extraction, with factors including
the time it takes between hop FW hop addition and the beginning of the boil,
as well as the possibility that the bittering substances may more
effectively remain in solution in the wort, as suggested by the Fix
research.  I have noticed that ProMash, the software for brewing and recipe
formulation, features a setting where FWH contributions are calculated.
Their product can be found at http://www.promash.com/ . You may want to
contact Promash for more information on how they based their calculations.

While the original experiments were performed using Tettnang and Saaz, the
article goes on to include a table at the base showing a variety of recipes
created by other homebrewers as well as sensory commentary from the brewers.

I will continue to try to track down the article in Brauwelt, and will let
you know if I find anything. I don't think you are likely to see any further
commercial research done on FWH, as it may not be construed by the
professional brewing community as a key factor in achieving substantive
gains in the brewhouse. Too bad Brewing Techniques is not still around!

Keith Lemcke




<<<Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 01:31:27 -0400
From: "Eric R. Lande" <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Seibel Week

Thanks for this opportunity and maybe I can get a straight answer on
this:

My question is about First Wort Hopping.  This sounds like a good idea,
but questions keep popping up that make me hesitant to try it.  I've read
that when doing FWH that you should add 1/3 of your hop bill to the
kettle as you are laudering.  Is this the bittering, flavoring or aroma
hops or some combination?  If it is the aroma hops, do I need to add more
at the end of the boil to account for the loss of the volatile oils
during the boil?  If it is all three, should the total hopping rate be
reduced to account for the increased bitterness extracted from the
greater amount of hops boiled for the full boil?  Any other info that
could put my mind at ease about FWH would be appreciated.  Also, is FWH a
superior concept or is it just something different that is on a par with
the more common hopping schedule?  Thanks in advance.


Eric Lande
Doylestown, PA>>>








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