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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Query re crown seals ("Country Brewer- Penrith")
  Cloudy allgrain pitched on yeast cake... (Kelly Grigg)
  What is hot break? (Kelly Grigg)
  Powdered Beer? ("Jim")
  Hop growing (K.M.)" <kmuell18 at visteon.com>
  HERMS, counter pressure filler (David Passaretti)
  National Homebrewers Conference ("Monica Tall")
  Special Invitation to Celebrate Beer Excellence ("Monica Tall")
  AHA Board Elections ("Gary Glass")
  Malt Bill for Scottish 60 query (David Towson)
  Historic Brewing Book (Jeff Renner)
  Siebel Response- Sediment in Brew-Lyn Kruger-2 ("Rob Moline")
  Siebel Response: Wort Aeration-Lyn Kruger-3 ("Rob Moline")
  Siebel Response: DO levels-Lyn Kruger-4 ("Rob Moline")
  Siebel Response: Bacteria Staining-Lyn Kruger-5 ("Rob Moline")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 14:05:25 +1000
From: "Country Brewer- Penrith" <youre_my_valentine at bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Query re crown seals

>
> Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 15:34:47 +1000
> From: Bernard Morey <bernardmorey at optushome.com.au>
> Subject: Query re crown seals
>
> 1. Are standard crown seals OK to use on twist-off
> bottles (Australia: stubbies)? I believe it is best to
> use a capping machine for this type of bottle rather
> than an old- fashioned hammer-on sealer. I guess
> the latter is a bit robust for a use-once container.
I would not recommend using a hand capper for anything but a bird
perch(another story) I have had great success with the standard aussie twist
top and a bench capper. most of (if not all) of the crown seals sold locally
are usable on both twisties and crown seals
>
> 2. $2 shops sell attractive Chinese-made swing-top
> bottles (Grolsch-style) for $2.25 or $2.50. Anyone
> used these? They are more attractive than your
> standard 750ml brown bottle.
They are also made to a price....they feel a little light weight to me. if
you do use them put them somewhere that wont be adversly affected by flying
glass as they may explode...try at own risk
>
> Bernard Morey Melbourne

am I alone in having difficulty getting onto hbd in the last coupla days???

Karl Valentine, Manager.
The Country Brewer - Penrith
560 High St,
Penrith, NSW, 2750.
(02) 4731 5444
rainman at countrybrewer.com.au
www.countrybrewer.com

Abstainer, n. A weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself
a pleasure. --Ambrose Bierce, American author (1842-1914?)



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:40:20 -0500
From: Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: Cloudy allgrain pitched on yeast cake...

Hi All,

Well, was looking at my 3rd batch of all grain. I tried pitching it onto
a used yeast cake from my 2nd batch of all grain. Well, lemme tell you,
this stuff looked like it was boiling..the fermentation was almost immediate,
and went quick. I think it may have actually already finished...in like
3 days!!

But, it looks weird...VERY cloudy.  Now, when I siphoned the cool wort
from the boiling pot (I have a couple of sankey large kegs with the tops
cut off)...into my carboys...the wort was pretty darned clear.  As it
went into the carboys with the used yeast cakes..it stirred up the yeast
and trub from the previous batch...and got a cloudy appearance. I thought
nothing of it...but, now...it is still just as cloudy!!  It has the looks
of raw apple cider...quite opaque.

Any ideas on this...I'll give it time, but, it does not appear to be settling
out at all.  One other thing..this was my first attempt to use an adjunct,
and I used new red potatoes that I boiled, mashed, and mixed with my grains.

However, when sparging out...this stuff came out pretty clear...this
cloudyness just seemed to start when I put it into my carboys with
the used yeast cake.

Any ideas?  Is this normal for used yeast? Would some type of clarifying
agent work at this time? I've never used one before. I don't think I got
any type of infection...

Thanks in advance for any ideas...

Kelly

ps. Since the weekend is upon us..could you cc answers to me at my home
address...I don't get the digest there yet. cayenne8 at mindspring.com
- -- 


- ------------------

"Oh, you hate your job? Why didn't you say so? There's a support
group for that. It's called EVERYBODY, and they meet at the bar."

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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:51:13 -0500
From: Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: What is hot break?

Hello again all.

Just been reading about this hot break...what exactly is it? I've done
3 batches of all-grain....and have seen some stuff solidify. Is this
what I'm looking for? What is it? Am I supposed to somehow leave it
in the pot when I siphon out into my carboys? If so...how do ya'll
filter it out?

Thanks,

kelly
- -- 


- ------------------

"Oh, you hate your job? Why didn't you say so? There's a support
group for that. It's called EVERYBODY, and they meet at the bar."

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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:54:40 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Jim" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Powdered Beer?

The following could cut one's brew day by a considerable amount of time. 
Also there would be no fear of HSA.
Two Purdue University students have created a beer-flavored spice as part of
a college project.
They converted non-alcoholic beer into a freeze-dried powder that can be
sprinkled on food.  They found classmates liked the beer spice to flavor
chips and popcorn.  The beer spice can even be used to make instant beer. 
Just add soda water and alcohol and you have a brewski.
Rumor has it that Phil has found out about this and is attempting to corner
the market for the beer spice in OZ. 
Hope to see all of you at Nationals in Texas
Jim Bermingham


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:58:30 -0400
From: "Mueller, Kevin (K.M.)" <kmuell18 at visteon.com>
Subject: Hop growing

Here's a question for the hop grower's out there.  I've recently obtained a
rhizome of Liberty and was wondering about the best spot to put them in my
yard.  

My home is in Canton, MI, so my back yard is basically clay with some top
soil thrown on top.  Whenever it rains the back fence line turns into a
marsh for a day or so while its draining.  I was wondering if the hop plant
would like that much water, or not?  If not, I can put the plant closer to
my house where the water doesn't stay as long.  The grass loves the water,
but would the hops?

Do any of you grow along your fence line, or is it nesessary to build a
trellis for the height?  I'd prefer to keep under 6 ft or so if possible,
and just grow horizontally along the fence line.

Any recomendations for treating the soil in the hole that I dig?  I was
planning on planting it in a buried bucket to keep it from spreading to far.
Is that nesessary, or will it easily stay where I plant it?

TIA,
Kevin
Canton, MI


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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 07:27:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Passaretti <dpassaretti at yahoo.com>
Subject: HERMS, counter pressure filler

I finally got my automated HERMS system (consisting of
a PID and two solenoids) up and running. It held the
mash temp within one degree and ran perfectly. I would
like to thank Bill Tobler, CD Pritchard, and
especially Nate Wahl (who generously donated a
thermocouple) for all the help. Thanks also to the
rest of the people on HBD. If anyone has any questions
or needs help with a simlilar system please feel free
to email.
I am also considering buying a counter pressure bottle
filler. In particular, Hoptech Homebrewing sells a
unit with 3way valve and an automatic pressure relief
valve that seems very convenient and well built. Does
anyone have any experience with this unit or
recs/warnings about other fillers.
Thanks
David Passaretti
Cincinnati, OH




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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:31:21 -0600
From: "Monica Tall" <monica at aob.org>
Subject: National Homebrewers Conference

YEE-haw...

Join us for this year's National Homebrewers Conference!

What: American Homebrewers Association 
	National Homebrewers Conference 2002
When: June 20-22, 2002
Where: Wilson World Hotel - Irving, Texas

Register Today!

Visit http://hbd.org/nhc2002/index.htm or contact
the Association of Brewers at 888.822.6273 or
+1.303.447.8016 for more information.

The 2002 "Big Texas Toast" conference will be a fun, educational 
gathering designed to enhance homebrewers' brewing skills and 
knowledge and increase homebrewing camaraderie.

Event Highlights:

Last-round judging of the National Homebrew Competition
Three days of homebrewing lectures and seminars
Nightly events, featuring beer made from clubs across the United States.

Share good 'ole times and homebrews in Texas!

Event Sponsors:

FlavorActiV
Rogue Ales
Beer, Beer & More Beer
BJ's Restaurant and Brewhouse
White Labs
Wyeast





Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:33:43 -0600
From: "Monica Tall" <monica at aob.org>
Subject: Special Invitation to Celebrate Beer Excellence

The Association of Brewers specially invites you
to celebrate and savor worldwide beer excellence.

World Beer Cup 2002
Awards Ceremony and Gala Awards Dinner
June 12, 2002
Historic Hotel Jerome -- Aspen, Colorado U.S.A.

The biennial World Beer Cup is a global competition
that evaluates beers from around the world, recognizing
the most outstanding beers produced today.

Find the exciting details on
http://www.beertown.org/WBC/wbc.htm

Awards Ceremony - June 12, 2002 2 p.m. to 4 p.m.
144 breweries from 16 countries will be awarded
gold, silver and bronze awards in 70 beer style categories.

Sample award-winning beers, imported artisan cheeses
and much more while mingling with brewers from around the
world.

Gala Awards Dinner - June 12, 2002 7 p.m. to 10 p.m.
Indulge your palate in a delicious five-course meal,
featuring entrees prepared and paired with the award-winning beers.

Stout Brined Venison Rack with Braised Red Cabbage
Chocolate Decadence Torte with Guinness-style ice cream
And more delectable courses...

Special guest Garrett Oliver will help you recognize the different
characters in the beer-and-entree pairings.

More World Beer Cup 2002 Finalists at
http://www.beertown.org/WBC/2002/finalists.htm

Ticket Order Deadline -- June 3

TICKETS FOR THE EVENTS
$225 for the Awards Ceremony & Gala Awards Dinner
$95 for Awards Ceremony Only

Contact: Jessica Gottlob, jessica at aob.org,
+1.303.447.0816, for ticket information.

Media Contact: Cindy Jones, Marketing Director, cindy at aob.org









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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 14:06:03 -0600
From: "Gary Glass" <gary at aob.org>
Subject: AHA Board Elections

Congratulations to the Newly Elected American Homebrewers Association Board
of Advisors Members:

Steve Jones
Rob Moline
Alberta Rager
Jeff Renner
Phil Sides, Jr.

We had an impressive line up of candidates this year, all of whom would have
made excellent additions to the AHA Board of Advisors.  The AHA Staff and
Board of Advisors thank them for their efforts and their dedication to
homebrewing.

Thanks also to all of the AHA members who took the time to vote, there was a
record number of ballots cast in this election--more than doubling last
year's numbers.

Cheers!

Gary Glass, Project Coordinator
Association of Brewers
888-U-CAN-BREW
(303) 447-0816 x 121
gary at aob.org
www.beertown.org

The National Homebrewers Conference got so big we had to move it to Texas.
Don't miss the "Big Texas Toast" in Irving, TX, June 20-22. Check out
http://hbd.org/nhc2002/

The Great American Beer Festival Turns 21 this Year! Mark your calendars,
October 3-5, 2002 at the Denver Convention Center,
http://www.beertown.org/GABF/



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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:48:02 -0400
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Malt Bill for Scottish 60 query

The following appeared in HBD #3948.

"I'm attempting to calculate the malt bill for a
Scottish 60, a style I've never brewed before, using
the Designing Great Beers Book. My OG should be around
1030-1034 according to styles guidlines and I'm
brewing 10 gallons. The grain bill just seems light to
me. Wanted some opinions. Here's what I have...


Pale Malt     80% 10.75 lbs
Roast Barley  2%  .33   lbs
Munich Malt   5%  .66   lbs
Smoked Malt   5%  .66   lbs
Dextrine Malt 8%  1     lbs"

I plugged the recipe into Promash, and the calculated gravity for a ten 
gallon batch was 1.038.  I have been using this program for several years, 
and the gravity calculations have been quite reliable.

Dave in Bel Air, MD




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 10:32:01 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Historic Brewing Book

Brewers and beer history fans

Several months ago, list member Glenn Raudins posted a notice here 
that he was republishing the 1852 book "The Complete Practical 
Brewer"* at a pre-publication savings.  It sounded interesting, so I 
went to his web site http://www.raudins.com/BrewBooks/ and decided to 
buy it.  It arrived a couple of months ago and I've had ample time to 
read it.

*(The complete title is "The Complete Practical Brewer; or, Plain, 
accurate and thorough instructions in the art of brewing ale, beer, 
and porter; including the process of making Bavarian beer; also all 
the small beers, such as root-beer, ginger pop, sarsaparilla-beer, 
mead, spruce-beer, etc. etc adapted to the use of public brewers and 
private families, or those who may wish to brew on a small scale. 
With numerous illustrations.  By M. L. Byrn, M.D. graduate of the 
University of the City of New York; author of "Detection of Fraud and 
Protection of Health," etc.etc.")

I wholeheartedly recommend this book.  If you are interested in how 
beer was brewed in the mid 19th century, you will want this book.  If 
you are interested in the history of applied technology, you will 
want this book.  If you like nice books, you will want it.

First, let me describe it physically.  It is a handsome book, about 
6"x9", 199 pages, printed on heavy acid free stock, and solidly bound 
with bonded leather covers.  The type and illustrations is clean and 
very legible.  I found that Glenn scanned the original book with OCR, 
then proof-read it all, making the usual adjustments required with 
still somewhat error-prone OCR, and cleaned up the whole thing.  He 
chose fonts that matched the original type, so it has an historically 
accurate look but is brand new.  The original illustrations of kilns, 
mashing machines, etc., are all reproduced very clearly.

The contents include chapters on raw materials, mashing, descriptions 
of beer and ale, the Scotch and English systems of brewing ale, the 
brewing of porter, small scale brewing methods for "brewers in the 
interior of the states" (micro-breweries?),and descriptions of 
regional beers in England and Europe, including Bavarian beer.

Among the historically interesting passages is this:

"Ale and Beer - These two words, in Great Britain and this country, 
are applied to two liquors obtained by fermentation from the malt of 
barley; but they differ from each other in several particulars.  Ale 
is light-colored, brisk, and sweetish, or at least free from bitter; 
while beer is dark colored, bitter, and much less brisk.  What is 
called porter, in England, is a species of beer; and the term porter 
at present signifies what was formerly called strong beer.  The 
original difference between these two liquids was owing to the malt 
from which they were prepared.  Ale malt was dried at a very low 
heat, and consequently was of a pale colour; while beer or porter 
malt was dried at a higher temperature, and had of consequence 
acquired a brown color."

This is certainly a different perspective from the modern one.

Here's a recipe for Welsh ale. "This is a richly flavoured and 
luscious ale, and many persons are quite fond of it.

Process
72 bushels of pale malt
70 pounds of hops
20 pounds of best brown sugar
2 pounds of grains of paradise"

The author then gives brewing instructions.  I found the inclusion of 
grains of paradise fascinating.  This is my "secret spice" for my 
ginger wit beer.

For a fuller description of the book, see the web site.

I am hoping that Glenn finds the publishing of this book successful 
enough that he will go ahead with his plans to publish other historic 
brewing and distilling books.  I understand upcoming would be M.L. 
Byrn's "The Complete Practical Distiller" from the late 1800's, the 
companion to the brewing book.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 17:07:43 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Siebel Response- Sediment in Brew-Lyn Kruger-2

QUESTION
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 09:04:49 -0500
From: brewingbeer at boxfrog.com
Subject: Siebel Week
I represent a commercial brewery that is developing sediment in bottles of
beer. The sediment is only occuring in those beers that are dry hopped,
specifically Pale Ale and IPA.
A sample has been analyzed by Siebel Laboratories which shows:
Skins: Few
Flakes: Few
Strings: Few
Fine Granules: Very Many
Oxalate Crystals: Some
Yeast - Abnormal: Some
Bacteria: Few

The beer is dry hopped by adding hop pellets to the fermenter after the beer
has reached 34 degrees F and the yeast has been drawn off. After several
days the hops are removed and the beer filtered with a DE filter.
The beer remains bright in the bottle for two weeks before the formation of
a very fine sediment begins. After eight weeks the sediment is more
considerable, the particles form larger clumps, but the beer remains
brilliant and tastes fine.

We have gone to successively tighter filtrations to no avail.
We suspect the abnormal yeast and bacteria are being added with the hops in
the fermenter, but they do not seem to be the cause of the sediment.
How do we eliminate this sediment without ending our practice of dry
hopping?
brewingbeer at boxfrog.com

RESPONSE
Brewingbeer:

It may be purely coincidental that you are developing a fine sediment in
your dry hopped beers and not in your beers that are not dry hopped.
The results of the analysis by Siebel Laboratories shows that you have very
many fine granules of protein in your sediment and this is probably the
primary cause of your problem. The numbers of bacteria and yeast are not
sufficient to cause a noticeable sediment.

Brewhouse procedures and raw materials will influence the amount of protein
that is carried into your beer.

Are you using different malts for your Pale Ale and IPA?
Are these higher gravity brews, in other words is your grain bill higher for
these two beers?
Have you noticed any differences in boil characteristics?
Are your worts for these beers running as clear as your other beers?
Have you tried any clarification agents (either in the kettle or during
storage)?
A tighter filtration will not necessarily help as this sediment is
developing over time. At what temperature are you filtering?

I would look into these areas to find the source of a protein haze.
Lyn Kruger
Siebel Institute of Technology



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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 17:09:10 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Siebel Response: Wort Aeration-Lyn Kruger-3

QUESTION
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 08:55:16 -0400
From: "Mike Dixon" <mpdixon at ipass.net>
Subject: Siebel Week: DO levels
I have a question regarding the DO (dissolved oxygen) levels in wort after
aeration/oxygenation and pitching.
In a properly aerated/oxygenated wort, adequately pitched for the strength
of the brew, at what point is the DO level essentially zero or unmeasurable?
Cheers,
Mike

RESPONSE
Mike:
Removal of dissolved oxygen by yeast depends on a number of factors:
The health of the yeast (there is a yeast vitality test that measures the
rate of oxygen uptake to assess the "health" of the yeast).
The temperature of fermetation.
The yeast strain.
However, all this being said, the yeast will generally remove the dissolved
oxygen very rapidly and there should be essentially zero dissolved oxygen
after about 2-4 hours.

Lyn Kruger
Siebel Institute of Techonolgy



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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 17:10:25 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Siebel Response: DO levels-Lyn Kruger-4

QUESTION
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 15:03:51 -0400
From: "Schneider, Brett" <Brett_Schneider at bose.com>
Subject: Siebel Week
My thanks as well for the focus on homebrewers again - here's a question
about wort aeration:
I have a SS aeration stone on the SS dip tube extension plumbed in as an
accessory to my oxy/acetylene gas welding system. My question concerns the
O2 and yeast addition sequencing: normally I aerate and then pitch, but do
this without knowing why I chose this method. Last time I did this was for a
helles, and I saw no significant decrease in lag time, and in fact I ended
up somewhat under attenuated. What is the best procedure for aerating cold
wort and adding yeast?
Thanks - Brett

RESPONSE

Brett:

The issue isn't really whether you aerate the wort prior to adding the yeast
or once the yeast has been added, but how much of the oxygen dissolves in
the wort. The yeast doesn't care when it's added as long as it gets enough
DISSOLVED oxygen. The primary reason why brewers will aerate first and then
add the yeast is so that they can measure how much dissolved oxygen they are
adding (you obviously cannot measure this once the yeast has been added.)
Aerating the wort once the yeast has been added can in some circumstances be
beneficial. You are getting the yeast well mixed and in good contact with
the wort and possibly getting it off to a faster start. When I was doing
fairly extensive research on fermentation on a small scale (2 liters) I
would add the yeast to the wort in a 5 liter flask, shake the wort/yeast
mixture vigorously 35 times (I had determined that this produced air
saturation of the wort) and then poured the mixture into my fermentation
vessels. This worked really well and gave me very consistent results.
In large breweries where they are pitching their yeast in-line, the question
of mixing is not an issue, so the yeast in generally added after aeration
(although not always), but on a home brewing scale where you are adding
yeast to a container, it may well be better to add the yeast first to get
some good mixing.

Lyn Kruger
Siebel Institute of Technology



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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 17:11:18 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Siebel Response: Bacteria Staining-Lyn Kruger-5

QUESTION
Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 20:17:11 -0400
From: Gary M Chumney <garychumney at juno.com>
Subject: Siebel week-Bacteria Staining
I have a bacteria staining kit with the following solutions:
Carbol Fuschin
Methylene Blue
Crystal Violet-Ammonium Oxalate
Crystal Violet
Menthylene Blue with Alcohol
Carbol Red

I know that one of the Menthylene Blue is for determining yeast viability
and which one I don't know yet. As far as the other stains are concerned
which bacteria do they show in a test on a wort or beer?
Thanks
Gary Chumney

RESPONSE:

Gary:

The methylene blue (presumably dissolved in water) is the correct stain for
yeast viability.
Crystal violet is used as part of the Gram's stain
Carbol Fuschin can be used as a counterstain in the Gram's stain - it is
also used as part of a spore stain for bacteria.

The other stains are not really of much use in brewery applications.

For example:
Methylene blue with alcohol can be used as a counter stain for the Ziehl-
Neelsen stain (for acid fast bacteria.)
These stains are used in clinical microbiology

Lyn Kruger
Siebel Institute of Technology



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