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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Length of sparge? ("Gary Smith")
  Oh Jeff.... (Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative)
  Siebel response to responses. ("Steve Alexander")
  What do you drink from? ("B Morey")
  Buzz Off MCAB Winners ("David Houseman")
  Freezer problem (K Mychajlonka)
  Sunshine Challenge Winners (Don Lake)
  Klein marches on... ("James Sploonta")
  metabite/bicarb (AJ)
  Re: Water treatment and Baking Powder (Jeff Renner)
  Compact Corny Fridge (mohrstrom)
  Re: Searching for brew info (Ronald La Borde)
  Corny Tank Plug Thread? (mohrstrom)
  re: cloudy allgrain (Ken Pendergrass)
  Brew info (Bill Frazier)
  Has Anyone Tried the Guinness Draught in a Bottle Widget? ("Ryan and Shelly")
  Guinness Widget problem solved? ("Ryan and Shelly")


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Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 23:50:47 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com>
Subject: Length of sparge?

Greetings,

I've been trying to get a good solid handle on sparging. I 
have read about some batches where no sparging is 
done ( as in high gravity beer ) & other examples where 
the sparge can take over an hour.

I thought there was a problem with leaching tannins 
from husks & creating off flavors from prolonged 
exposure to husks to higher temps & water.

I've read enough different "advices" that I'd like to get a 
mo better understanding of what is important & which is 
overkill.

Any suggestions or great ruminations will surely be 
welcomed.

Cheers, 

Gary

P.S. Congratulations & 3 cheers to Pat on the migration 
to the new server, everything seems to be working 
perfectly.





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Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:59:48 +1000 (EST)
From: Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative <Scott.Morgan at Sun.COM>
Subject: Oh Jeff....

It may be better for Miller to be a part of a brewing conglomerate 
rather than a company that makes everything from macaroni and cheese 
to cigarettes, but it pains me to see any US company go overseas.

Jeff

Ohh Jeff it only really hurts when its a kiwi company who buys out
a favourite company. And it really really hurts when they crush
a thriving industry as occured to Aussie Brewing in the early 80's!

Scotty




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Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 04:09:54 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Siebel response to responses.

re: Siebel Response- Sediment in Brew-Lyn Kruger-2

>The results of the analysis by Siebel Laboratories shows that you have very
>many fine granules of protein in your sediment and this is probably the
>primary cause of your problem.
[...]
>Brewhouse procedures and raw materials will influence the amount of protein
>that is carried into your beer.

Is this sediment consistent with protein precipitated by the addition of
gallotannins and tannoids from the dry-hops ?  If so then perhaps treating
with PVPP or Polyclar or gelatin (polyphenolic reduction) during the
dry-hopping will remove this possible cause of sedimentation.

=========

Siebel Response: DO levels-Lyn Kruger-4

>The issue isn't really whether you aerate the wort prior to adding the
yeast
>or once the yeast has been added, but how much of the oxygen dissolves in
>the wort. The yeast doesn't care when it's added as long as it gets enough
>DISSOLVED oxygen.

It's not just how much O2 is dissolved in the wort, but how much is still in
the wort when the yeast are ready to use it.  Oxygen disappears rapidly from
unpitched wort.   I have a reference somewhere about saturation levels of DO
disappearing from UNPITCHED wort in 7 hours.  Lodolo et al (MBAA-TQ v35, pp
139-154, 1999) demonstrate equal fermentation performance with 16ppm O2 at
pitching vs 8ppm at pitching+4 hours. It is suggested that this is due to
increasing affinity of yeast for O2 in the early hours after pitching.
O'Conner-Cox & Ingledew  studied the effects of oxygenation timing
extensively tho' at laboratory scale (JASC v48, pp26-32) with similar
conclusion.

The yeast require 'enough oxygen' at a time when they are physiologically
capable of utilizing it.

An interesting side note ....
As far as I know the only controlled (as opposed to empirically derived)
yeast oxygenation schedule is a patented process by D.Quain and C.Boulton
[see 'Brewing Yeast & Fermentation', pub=Blackwell Sci., 1999].  This
process involves keeping a slurry at a fixed DO level and measuring the
yeast O2 uptake rate (indirectly).  The yeast are
ready for pitching or cold storage when the yeast O2 uptake rate reaches a
maxima in 2 to 6 hours.  This well oxygenated slurry is pitched into
UNoxygenated and is reported to be more storage-stable than the unoxygenated
slurry, produces less yeast growth(more efficient), more consistent
(complete) attenuation profile and comparable esters&fusels.  This has been
tested at commercial scale (apparently at Bass Ltd) !

If you think this doesn't apply to HB you underestimate the amateur's zeal.

- ---------

Whether there is a reply or not - thanks to the Siebel staff for all the
'food for thought'.

 -Steve




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Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 20:00:59 +1000
From: "B Morey" <bernardmorey at optushome.com.au>
Subject: What do you drink from?

What everyone's best or favourite glass to drink a fine beer from?

I've been using bulls-eye (?) glasses with a handle, but they're
heavy. Might get pilsner glasses but the larger ones are a bit tall
for the glass rack in the dishwasher.

I'd like to find UK-style pub glasses -- with the bulge about 2/3 the
way up. Can't find them in Melbourne -- has anyone seen them?

Bernard Morey




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Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 07:21:05 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam at earthlink.net>
Subject: Buzz Off MCAB Winners

While the ribbon categories were posted, we omitted the MCAB winners list;
these will be on our web site as well and will be posted within the next
couple days.   Judge evaluation forms and prizes are being mailed today.

Dave Houseman




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Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 05:47:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: K Mychajlonka <mychajlonka at yahoo.com>
Subject: Freezer problem

I have been reading the digest for over 6-months now
(the archives as well) and have found the discussions
helpful. I recently moved into a new home and the
previous owners left me the upright freezer in the
basement per my request. Well I didn't look at it very
well, because after moving in I noticed the shelves
were fixed and cannot be moved. In other words the
coils are integrated into the shelves. My question is
can I somehow make this freezer into a lagering fridge
without too much trouble? Or should I get rid of it
and start searching for one that is better suited for
my purpose? I had one Idea of building a
son-of-fermentation chamber next to it and using the
cold air of the freezer for my "ice jugs", but that
would require either a collar on the freezer or
cutting a whole in it. Are there any other ideas? Can
the shelves be removed somehow without affecting the
freezer? I would think that would make a very
inefficient freezer, but I am not in the refrigeration
business. Thanks for any ideas on the subject.

Kyle
Waldorf, Maryland




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Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 09:08:41 -0400
From: Don Lake <dlake at amuni.com>
Subject: Sunshine Challenge Winners

Thanks to all who entered, judged and volunteered with the Thirteenth
Sunshine Challenge.  We had over 600 entries.  Please view the results
at http://www.cfhb.org/

Congratulations to regular poster Nathan Kanous who's last minute entry
won a gold medal for wheat beer and overall 2nd runner up Best of Show.

For the third straight year, the Sunshine Challenge has taken great
pride in handing out the actual judging/score sheets to the brewers at
the end of the award ceremony.  We are the only major competition (we
know of ) that does this.  We also "promptly" mail out the judge sheets
and awards to the out of towners.

We look forward to your participation in the 2003 Sunshine Challenge
next May.

Don Lake





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Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 09:35:09 -0400
From: "James Sploonta" <biere_god at hotmail.com>
Subject: Klein marches on...

Well, I think this will be my last forray into the world of Klein. I'm 
debating whether or not to do the same as Mr. B and simply chuck this 
calendar into the trash. It's frustrating to think that some now believe 
that this is the way to decribe beer, and that there are beers on this 
planet that have "fizzy, hoppy mouthfeel that is companionable" - all 
because some idiot was given the right to drink beer and write about it. 
(For those who'd rather stay a tad closer to this planet in their beer 
experiences, might I recommend the style guidelines at http://bjcp.org? THey 
ain't perfect, but at least they're earthbound...)

5/21 Aass Bock. You KNOW that this ninny included this beer in his calendar 
for the same reasons he included Estrella Damm: he found the beer's name 
humorous (at least to his sophomoric sense of humor). Anyway, he says of 
Aass "It's well-balanced finishing aroma hints of molasses and caramel, but 
without the cloying sweetness often associated with the style." Excuse me? 
WHAT cloying sweetness is associated with the aroma of a Bock? Or with the 
flavor, fo that matter?

5/28 "Lager Lingo": BRavo! He finally got something right, after a fashion. 
He properly associates AMerican Ultra-Light Pilsener with the Pilsener 
style, and indicates taht it is only "a faint echo of the bubbly, aromatic, 
and hop-flowery real thing."

5/31 Castle Lager: How is is a beer's body "firm and taut"? How does it 
display "gritty texture"?

6/1 "Alexander Keith's India Pale Ale: this beer sounds NOTHING like any IPA 
I've ever drunk. A "mild sugary sweetness" which "acquires a pleasantly 
fizzy, hop mouthfeel at the swallow"? "Light and airy all over the mouth"? 
What the frig does THAT mean?

6/2 Saxer Bock: all I can say here is that, if your Saxer bock was "tart", 
it was infected. ("A stable hop background provides mouthwatering tartness 
at the edges of the tongue.")

6/3 Estrella Damm; "This Dammm beer..." See what I mean? Grammar school 
stuff. His description puts your tongue in traction...

Well, that's enough for me. The calendar is headed for the incinerator, as I 
find it difficult to look at without reacting to it here on the HBD. I also 
regret having laid down money to buy the thing, thus supporting Klein in 
productiong of more such drivel.

If I have brewing questions or input, you may see my email address again, 
but I think I'll settle back into lurk mode. I can see why Mr. B threw his 
out and stopped commenting on Klein: it gobbles time wholesale...

 -JS



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Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 14:51:42 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: metabite/bicarb

In 0.08 of a second John obtained misleading information. One campden 
tablet contains about half a gram (depending on the manufacturer) of 
sodium or potassium (depending on the manufacturer) metabite which 
contain somewhat differnt amounts of sulfur dioxide. A level teaspoon of 
metabite powder is clearly more than half a gram - it's probably a 
couple of grams. Again the equivalent sulfur dioxide is dependent upon 
whether it is the sodium or potassium salt. Take a campden tablet and 
crush it. Then put the powder in a teaspoon. Is it even close to level?

Thus the difference between an archives search and a posting has been 
illustrated. In the archives you will find info as erroneous as that 
which is posted to the live HBD and, if you search dilligently, any 
"rebuttal" of the erroneous information which may have been posted. In 
the live thread you are, if a religious reader, perhaps more likely to 
see the thread as a whole. The other thing the archives won't give you 
is the most current information or thinking on a subject.

Mind you I'm not discouraging or disparaging archive searches. I think 
anyone interested in a subject should use the archives as a potential 
source but after reading them and drawing a conclusion it would be wise 
to throw the findings into the arena and see what the lions think.


On to baking soda. No, it's not  used in brewing. Baking soda, ( sodium 
bicarbonate), baking powder's main constituent,  can be used to increase 
alkalinity though it isn't often employed for that purpose as chalk 
(calcium carbonate) seems to be preferred. The carbonate in chalk is, of 
course, converted to bicarbonate in the mash so I think the main reason 
people avoid baking soda is that sodium is at best a "don't care" ion 
while calcium is certainly beneficial.

None of the other stuff in baking powder (which is designed to evolve 
CO2 gas in baked goods - thats what the monobasic phosphate is in there 
for) does any good in brewing though none of them would do any harm 
either.  Remember that the reason gypsum is added is to increase the 
calcium available for pH reducing reactions in the mash at the expense 
of sulfate levels which may be detrimental to hops. Baking powder 
contains "acid" in the form of the phosphate but that is there to react 
with the alkalinity of the bicarbonate. As the gypsum in baking powder 
is a minor ingredient a teaspoon of baking powder would not have the pH 
reducing effect of a teaspoon of straight gypsum.



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Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 11:17:08 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Water treatment and Baking Powder

"David Craft" <chsyhkr at bellsouth.net> writes from Greensboro, NC

>Has anyone tried Baking Powder for an all around water treatment.  I am
>shying away from gypsum because of the sulphur content.  Our water is very
>soft .

By sulfur, I assume you mean sulfate.  Gypsum is calcium sulfate.

>Baking Powder is............Sodium Bicarbonate, cornstarch, sodium aluminum
>sulfate, calcuim sulfate, and monocalcium phophate.  I am not looking for
>big additions, just a teaspoon for a 6 gallon batch. This seems to cover a
>broader range of minerals than gypsum.

It is a broader range of minerals, but not really useful ones.  You
shouldn't add salts without a good reason.

Since your water is very soft, you no doubt want to add calcium ions
for the mash.  But the majority of b.p. cations (the positively
charged ones) is sodium, not calcium, and this isn't really of much
use in brewing.  Furthermore, I suspect that the large amount of
bicarbonate will raise your mash pH - also not what you want.  Then
there is sodium aluminum sulfate, which has the sulfate you say you
are trying to avoid, to say nothing of the aluminum, then our friend
calcium sulfate (gypsum), and finally something rather useful,
mono-calcium phosphate.  This will add a calcium ion plus something
there is lots of in a mash already, a phosphate ion.  But it won't be
adding much.

I think that for ales, especially pale ales, gypsum is a fine
addition to boost your calcium to at least 50ppm.  The sulfate,
within reason, adds a nice bite to the hops, and you can go higher
for a good, crisp IPA.  For lagers, calcium chloride seems a good
choice as the sulfate is reputed to add a harshness to the hops
bitterness.  It's what I use.

I like the idea of mono-calcium phosphate, though.  A.J. has
mentioned this in the past, I think, as a logical way of getting
calcium ions in the mash water without unwanted anion (the negatively
charged ones) partners.  I wonder what its availability is.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:29:04 -0400
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Compact Corny Fridge

Thanks to Pat and Karl for defeating the Forces of Darkness, and getting
the HBD back on-line!

I'm in search of a compact refrigerator that can hold two cornies
side-by-side.  What I've been able to locate so far seem to be just a tad
narrow.  I assume that the door liner will need to be removed.  For the
most part, I use Spartanburg Challenger VI kegs  (anyone know of a cheap
source for the gray plastic relief valves for these?)

If you have had success with one of these critters, please provide brand
and model info.  I'm having a vision that I'll add a top with a faucet
tower and drip tray for a "built-in" look in the kitchen.


Mark in Kalamazoo




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Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 13:26:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ronald La Borde <pivoron at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Searching for brew info

>From: mailto:jadsit at attbi.com
>
>I opened Google,...and in the case of Camden tablets,
>one of those >quotations told
>me that "One level teaspoon of sodium metabisulphite
>= 1 Camden >tablet," so
>I didn't even have to leave that page to find what I
>wanted to know.
>...
> The key point is this: when you use your >computer,
>you
>could easily have an answer to some questions in less
>time than it >takes to
>type an email that asks the question.  In less time
>than it takes to >write,
>"I don't know what a Camden tablet is..." you can
>know what a Camden >tablet
>is.

Information and opinions will be given freely by
anyone - but in
all cases you must consider the source.

Your sodium metabisulphite teaspoon-full would be
equal to 12 Campden tablets.
 
Each Campde tablet contains 1/2 gram of
sulphite crystals.






=====
Ron
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suberb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:26:51 -0400
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Corny Tank Plug Thread?

Has anyone identified the female thread on a ball-lock corny's tank plug
(connector)?

Thanks!
Mark in Kalamazoo



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Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 18:52:23 -0400
From: Ken Pendergrass <kenp794 at earthlink.net>
Subject: re: cloudy allgrain

Kelly,
    I think your ferment is normal and as Jeff suggested it will settle
out when fermentation is finished and will further settle out in
secondary. I have seen this a number of times in my brews. My impression
is that with a really high pitch rate there can be quite a bit of
circulation generated in the vessel. Which will keep clumps of yeast
cells suspended until fermentation slows. This is easy to see in glass.

I don't like to use any type of clarifier for a number of reasons.
First, I guess, is that I just don't expect or care if my ales have the
clarity of a Bud. I don't think beer ever was that way prior to
filtration. I feel chill haze to be an acceptable factor in a fine
handcrafted, bottle conditioned ale.
Ken
In Ypsilanti which is really  near Jeff.



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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 15:29:37 -0500
From: Bill Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Brew info

John Adsit searched Google for "Camden" and was told "One level teaspoon of 
sodium metabisulphite = 1 Camden tablet,"

John - I know you're not interested in Campden Tablets per se but the 
information you were given on google is totally wrong.  Campden tablets are 
said to contain about 0.44grams of sulfite and when one is added to a 
gallon of wine will give about 50ppm sulfur dioxide (From Vines to Wines by 
Jeff Cox ~ one of my favorite wine making books).

Rather than depend on Jeff's information I weighed a few Campden Tablets 
down in my wine cellar.  I found them to weigh 0.55 grams and according to 
the label they contain 55% sulfur dioxide.  One of these Campden Tablets in 
a gallon of wine would produce about 80 ppm sulfur dioxide.  (Because of 
differences in various sources and batches of Campden Tablets I use 
potassium metabisulfite for wine making and weigh precise amounts.)

A teaspoonful of sodium metabisulphite will weigh at least 5 grams, 
depending on your spoon and how you measure.  If you add one teaspoonful of 
sodium metabisulphite to a gallon of wine you'll end up with close to 900 
ppm sulfur dioxide.  This would ruin any wine and if you gave it a good 
sniff could induce an asthmatic attack.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas



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Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 22:17:29 -0500
From: "Ryan and Shelly" <furstenau at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Has Anyone Tried the Guinness Draught in a Bottle Widget?

I am very curious about the Guinness draught bottles that have the "rocket
widget."  My first question is, does Guinness actually inject this widget
with Nitrogen and then put it into the bottle.  If so, how do they keep the
Nitrogen in the widget before the bottle is closed?

One of my theories is that if they actually put Nitrogen in the widget, then
by holding the widget upright the Nitrogen would stay in the widget because
Nitrogen is lighter than air. (N2 molecular weight of 28, air approximate
molecular weight of 28.84 (79% N2 at 28 molecular wt., 21% O2 at
32 molecular weight, disregard other gases in air as a very small
percentage.)

The second theory is that they don't put Nitrogen into the widget, but it
simply holds air.  After all, air is 79% Nitrogen.  So, you actually have a
79% Nitrogen filled widget without even filling it with Nitrogen.

Does anyone else have more information on this?  Has anyone actually tried
pulling one of these widgets out of the Guiness bottle and putting it in a
bottle of their next home brew?  If not, I plan to try this with my next
batch.  It just happens to be an Irish Stout and I will be bottling in
another week or so.  If anyone is interested, I will keep you posted.

Ryan
Omaha, NE USA



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Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 22:25:17 -0500
From: "Ryan and Shelly" <furstenau at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Guinness Widget problem solved?

Have I just solved the riddle of the Guinness Widget?  I just stumbled
across the following website.
http://www.wired.com/news/photo/0,1860,49020,00.html

In my previous post, I had asked what was in the Guinness Widget.  It
appears from this website the the widget contains a "precise mix of gas (75%
Nitrogen and 25% Oxygen).  This is almost exactly the percentages found in
pure air. (79% N2 and 21% O2)

So, maybe the Guiness Widgets can be taken out of their bottle and put into
a home brew bottle to create "draught home brew in a bottle."

Ryan
Omaha, NE USA



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