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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Glasses (TOLLEY Matthew)
  re: Length of sparge? ("Steve Alexander")
  Homebrewers in Toronto? (Bjoern.Thegeby)
  GUMP SEAL OF EXCELLENCE ("Rob Moline")
  RE:What do you drink from? ("Parker Dutro")
  Re: Compact Corny Fridge (mohrstrom) (Steven S)
  re: marching round a Klein bottle ("Steve Alexander")
  HSA vs PFO and a Grilled Robin ("Steve Alexander")
  Re:  What do you drink from? (Mark Kempisty)
  brewing (CMEBREW)
  FWH - Needs Clarification ("DRTEELE")
  Re: What do you drink from? (Calvin Perilloux)
  freezers ("Jeff D. Greenly")
  RE: What do you drink from? (Kelly Grigg)
  RE: Corny Tank Plug Thread? ("Doug Hurst")
  RE: Widgets ("Doug Hurst")
  Baking Powder, extended sparge, Thanx to Karl too, Guinness Widget ("Dave Burley")
  Running out of Sugar Blues ("Jeff Woods")
  Camden conversion clarification ("Paddock Wood Customer Service")
  Guinness Widget problem ("Eric R. Lande")
  Re: Guinness Widget problem solved? (Jeff Renner)
  MCAB ("dave holt")


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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:45:14 +1000
From: TOLLEY Matthew <matthew.tolley at atsic.gov.au>
Subject: Glasses

Bernard wrote:

>I'd like to find UK-style pub glasses -- with the bulge about 2/3 the
>way up. Can't find them in Melbourne -- has anyone seen them?

They're called 'nonic' pint glasses.  Your best bet is a restaurant/catering
supply shop - that's where I get mine in Canberra.

Cheers!
 ...Matt...



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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 01:48:15 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Length of sparge?

>I thought there was a problem with leaching tannins
>from husks & creating off flavors from prolonged
>exposure to husks to higher temps & water.

You'd probably find that the extent of this 'problem' is  dependent on a lot
of factors.

More water (mash+lauter) increases the total phenolic extraction and the
phenolic:carbohydrate ratio in the unboiled wort - that's clear in the
literature.  This doesn't mean your beer will be ruined - more likely just
suboptimal.   Commercial ops use around 1 gal of water (mash + sparge) per
pound of grist, and that's a good upper bound.   Louis Bonham wrote quite a
bit about no-sparge beers that used around 1.5qt/lb total water(see HBD
archives).  These beers are quite good, but I've a hunch (after some tests)
that the first batch sparge also includes important flavor components to
approximately 2.5-3 qt/lb.  Above 3qt/lb or so, IMO  you are diluting some
positive flavor components and adding greater amounts of negative ones.  I
would only advise that you try keeping the total water under 1gal/lb and
experiment.

I've also never had any clear experience of high mash&sparge temps (even to
boiling) causing objectionable levels of tannins in beer.  I suspect that
the high temp issues may be related to specific malts.

I have seen objectionable levels caused by use of 6-row malt even around 20%
or other grains such as rye.  I have tasted a lot of astringent or overly
tannic beers made with dark roast malts and probably little or no pH control
when using medium hard water.  I can't speak to the sparge conditions for
the latter.

HBD lore tells us that acidifying the sparge water to below pH 6(or so)
prevents tannic extraction.  I've never found a shred of evidence in the lit
to support this idea [lit says sparge pH rises as phenolic extraction
increases - not that pH is causal], but there are some reasonable theories
as to why this could work and it seems to work.  I adjust all brewing water
to 5.9 - 6.0 as a first step.  If you have soft water with reasonable pH
water you can probably sparge any way within reason and get good results.
If you have more buffering in your water I think you'd find better results
by adjusting the sparge water pH to 6 or less.

Time - I don't think any sparge time up to a couple hours is likely to
independently cause a problem, but I do have serious doubts about the
flavors when using overnight mash methods sometimes suggested in HBD.

>I've read enough different "advices" that I'd like to get a
>mo better understanding of what is important & which is
>overkill.


Give any method a fair test under your brewing conditions then taste the
results comparatively.  That's the only thing that will tell you what is
overkill and what isn't. Else it's all guidelines.

 -Steve




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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:32:49 +0200 
From: Bjoern.Thegeby at cec.eu.int
Subject: Homebrewers in Toronto?

Anybody in Toronto who would like to meet for a beer with a Swedish 
homebrewer living in Belgium, during next week (up to June 12)? I could 
bring a local sample or two....Answers by e-mail, please

Bjorn Thegeby
Waterloo (No, not that one, the real one)




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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 01:43:04 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: GUMP SEAL OF EXCELLENCE

				GUMP SEAL OF EXCELLENCE
			The Jethro Gump Report-Historic Brew Texts
     Let me get this straight....Jeff Renner writes an approving review of
the 1852 book "The Complete Practical Brewer" on May 31....it appears in HBD
3952, June 1, 02.....I order on the same day, and receive the book on June
3rd?
     Let's review...I know it's hard to believe...message from Renner sent
31 May 2002 10:32:01....HBD sent Fri 5/31/2002 11:25 PM, order sent 6.1.02
1:26 am, confirmation that shipment had occured 6.1.02 9:40 am, arrived
today, 6.3.02, 11:00am? Over a weekend???

     BRAVO, Mr. Raudins! You get the GUMP SEAL OF EXCELLENCE for Customer
Service! Well Done, Sir!
     And this DESPITE dealing with those pesky critters, brewers!(Great
Caesar's Ghost, don't you know they cost too much?)

     BRAVO!

http://www.raudins.com/BrewBooks/

Jethro Gump
"Shocked At Unexpected And Startlingly Brilliant Service!"



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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 00:16:01 -0700
From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: RE:What do you drink from?

Try a Cash & Carry or other United Grocer type outlet.  Any place that
carries bulk restaraunt supplies (like 5 gallon buckets of relish) The
United Grocer building I shop at for the coffee shop where I work has all
sorts of bar style glasses, I think I've seen the 2/3 bulge glass.  If you
have no luck at such a place, try www.williamsbrewing.com  They carry
glasses.

Parker Dutro




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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 06:43:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: Re: Compact Corny Fridge (mohrstrom)

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



I bought from a company in Canada http://www.neatbrewingideas.ca/
since I could not find a suitable fridge locally at the time.

this is a picture of the unit from another vendor

http://www.compactappliance.com/danponkegcoo.html

which has a nifty drip tray/rail


Now for the devil in the details..

You can now get this exact fridge unit at Home Depot for around $159. I've
seen it at my local store. If you can find a tower for under $50 you are
doing good. I got mine with a dual tap, well worth the extra money. Now
this unit WILL NOT hold two pin lock 5gallon kegs side by side without
some cutting of the sides. There are two molded ridges running along the
side (front to back) which holds/held the crisper drawer. It takes up a
total of a good inch and a bit more. Two ball locks fit perfectly snug and
there is some room left in back for a couple of hidden bottles. The danby
fridge has a flat door panel so that needs no modification.

To get CO2 into the box simply drill as close to the side on the rear as
possible. My factory holes are on the right rear (when facing the front)
about 2/3 the way up, 1/8" from the side.

Now if you are going to use picnic taps this is quick and easy.

Also this unit will get cold. I can keep it around 40 degrees at a little
than the 1/2 setting.

The unit runs extremely quietly, I'm quite impressed with the build
quality of this fridge.


Steven St.Laurent	403forbidden.net	[580.2,181.4] Rennerian



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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 03:31:34 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: marching round a Klein bottle

James Sploonta writes ...

>It's frustrating to think that some now believe
>that this is the way to describe beer,
[...]
> might I recommend the style guidelines at http://bjcp.org? They
>ain't perfect, but at least they're earthbound...)

I find it frustrating that such simple ideas could be misunderstood by
someone with basic reading skills.  NO ONE suggested Klein's descriptions
are any sort of ideal.  I did say that we need much better taste/flavor
descriptive *TERMS* than are currently available in the BJCP guidelines and
gave Klein as an example of someone attempting to expand the vocabulary -
tho' very badly in some of the posted examples.

You'll find better descriptions IMO in Michael Jackson's writings but these
go far beyond BJCP and well into the florid range of description too.

The ideal verbal (or written) beer description should give the reader a good
sense of the taste flavor and visual qualities of the beer.  Such things
aren't impossible - in fact it's pretty common in wine descriptions.  You
may need to learn the idiosyncrasies of the reviewer, but even without you
can get some reasonable sense.  The primary reason we can't do this for
beers is that we lack a sufficient common vocabulary.  That, and not Klein's
talent (or lack of) was always the issue.

Since you are the expert James (I'm certain you wouldn't criticize Klein
unless you could do much better) please post some descriptions of say <Bass
vs Sierra Nevada vs Anchor Steam> or else <Spaten vs Paulaner Munchen> so we
can see how it's done.  Descriptions that will clearly distinguish these and
also give a vivid visceral description to someone who hasn't tasted them.
You can't use specific hop or malt names in the descriptions of course and
extra points if you can limit terminology to BJCP terms.

I know I can't write like that - I haven't the words.  If you can James,
hats off to you - I'm looking forward to reading and learning from your
reviews.  Shouldn't be too hard for a "beire_god".

 -S




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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 06:52:39 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: HSA vs PFO and a Grilled Robin

Robin Griller writes

> Spencer seems to be reacting a little overly seriously to a tongue in
cheek
> comment, but as he's missed the point of what I was saying, in response
> three points:

Funny how everyone misses the point and the "tongue-in-check" aspect
of your comments, Robin.  Perhaps it's your writing skills.  Why not try
posting your actual thoughts plainly on the topic and then stand behind
them rather than claiming all of your posts are a humor in order to divert
scrutiny of the ideas.

> (1) I do wish that the person whose messages I don't receive, but who is
> apparently posing as me in Spencer's emails and saying that oxidation
> doesn't matter would stop! I do recall saying some things about claims
made
> about HSA in homebrew, but not about oxidation in general. So, of course
> Spencer is right: don't allow your beer to come into contact with oxygen
> after the beginning of fermentation.

My reading is that Robin said that HSA doesn't matter in staling
("unless brewing colorless flavorless cr*p") but now post fermentation
oxygen (PFO) inclusion does.  This contradicts all recent published papers
on the topic.  A most specific counter comment appears in JIBv105
pp269-274, "The use of O18 in appraising the impact of oxidation during
the brewing process" - "[post fermentation] oxygen did cause considerable
oxidation of sulphites, polyphenols and isohumulones, it was not
incorporated
into the carbonyl fraction[...]".   They found NO (noise level only) PFO
incorporated in the carbonyls (the primary staling compounds - aldehydes,
ketones, ...) and specifically no PFO in the trans-2-nonenal (cardboard
aldehyde) that Spencer tasted in his aged beer.  I'd wager that the cooked
pineapple flavor was an HSA carbonyl too but can only point to several
likely compound like damascenone.

> (2) So, some silly brewery probably kills off the yeast in their beer,
> exposes the beer to heat fluctuations in long shipping, etc., and anyone
is
> surprised their beer tastes like crap? STOP killing the beer and it'll
> taste fine!!! When will those commercial breweries learn from us
> homebrewers and start leaving live beer in their yeast to protect it????
My
> god these commercial breweries do dumb things!!!! No wonder they have to
> take all the flavour out of the beer in order to make a stable product.

So stable shippable beers like say Paulaner, Ayinger Guinness,
Weihenstephan have all the flavor taken out !   What an imagination.
Its a strawman arguments that there is only homebrew and megaswill
and nothing else.

> (3) How is the taste of a beer about whose production processes Spencer
> knows nothing evidence of HSA? It is not.

Because he's tasting carbonyls which result from HSA oxygen only.
The ASBC paper that Jim Adwell referenced, and several others said
this plain as day.  Cardboard aroma is due to HSA alone and never to
PFO.  Why make assertions when you haven't even read the material
Robin ?

>And yes, he did not specify where
> he thought the oxidation happened, but then that means he was not
> responding to my argument, which was about the claims made for HSA in
> homebrew. Add in that we just finished being told that HSA produces loss
of
> bitterness and a sweet caramel note (still sounds good to me, if only I
> could manage it!!), and a beer having wet cardboard and pineapple flavors
> is evidence for ??????

Robin, if you have evidence that post fermentation O2 can be responsible
for cardboard trans-2-nonenal that Spencer detected you could write a
paper that would stand brewing science on it's head.  Just the opposite
has been demonstrated with increasing confidence since the late 1970s.

If you enjoy cloying sweet flavors in your beers or loss of hop bitterness
there are simple ways to accomplish this (starting with removal of the hops
and addition of 5-pentane-dione) that don't expose your beers to coarse
flavored oxidized phenolics, aldehydes and ketones.  These things
detract from the intended fresh beer flavor.  It's no joy seeing a
nice ale turn over-sweet.

Siebels type comments that we HBers can experiment with oxidation flavors
(perhaps re Beire de Guard or Strong Ale) or infection flavors (re Lambics)
isn't an open license to drop bugs or oxidation flavors into a classic PA or
a pils or marzen.  It's a comment that these usually "off" flavors do find
value in certain specialized styles.


I'd be happy to discuss the specifics of this with you on or off line Robin,
but I have no interest in hearing or responding to your off-topic tirades
about what you mistakenly think others have or haven't said or understood.
Let's keep this about beer.  Use quotes not innuendo and state your
positions clearly.  A little evidence for your points and a lot less
chip-on-the-shoulder would help too.

Let me make a few points -
/Arguments that it only matters for megaswill while typical HB has levels of
HSA products many times higher require justification.
/I find no support for Robins position that HSA doesn't matter in HB, but
PFO does.  Both matter in mostly different ways.
/The presence of HSA products can dramatically influence the flavor
stability of beer despite the absence of PFO.  This can be stabilized to a
significant extent with sulfite.  Narziss suggests 8-9ppm of sulfite ions in
finished beer as optimal - an amount greater than yeast deliver.



I can't say it any better than Spencer did,

=S> if you're happy with your beer, if your beer doesn't deterioriate
=S> before you drink it all up, then *don't worry* and don't change.  But
=S> if you want to make your beer better and longer-lived, one thing to
=S> look at is potential sources of oxidation in your process.

 -S






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Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:24:49 -0400
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Re:  What do you drink from?

Bernard Morey asks what do we drink from...

My beer glass collection is very small (I don't need another hobby or
collection) but amongst them are four customized beer glasses from the
NPR Wireless catalogue.  They put your family name on them like an old
fashioned tavern sign.  It says Good Drink, Good Food, Good Friends
around Kempisty Tavern all in black on a yellow shield.  When family and
friends come over, they get a kick out of drinking from them.

- --
Take care,
Mark






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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 07:57:29 EDT
From: CMEBREW at aol.com
Subject: brewing

Hello All,

After many batches of all grain using my well water, which taste really good, 
and makes a good dark ale (sulphate level is 45, alk is 208) I have finally 
found the very best way to make a good light, or cream ale that can stand an 
IBU level above 25 without harsh bitterness is by using reverse osmosis 
water. I buy 7 gal from clearwater for $1.86 and add about 1.5 gal of my well 
water for the liquor. I suppose if I used no well water an addition of 1 tsp 
CaCl2 would be in order for the calcium. Now I have smooth full hop flavored 
light ale with about a 32 IBU and no harsh bitterness.  For those interested, 
check my new site: www.cmebrewcoffee.com and let me hear from you, I can use 
the feedback. Have a good brew (beer OR coffee) Charlie Preston


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 09:24:23 -0400
From: "DRTEELE" <drteele at bellsouth.net>
Subject: FWH - Needs Clarification

To Jeff R. and all you other FWH afficionados out there. In HBD #3950, 
Jeff gives the clearest, most succinct definition of FWH I have seen 
yet. Unfortunately, It is still a little vague in defining the hops in 
question, particularly as defined in the standard 3 addition schedule. 
Jeff's def merely referred to the FWH hops as being the 'normal late 
addition hops'.

In the 3 hop addition schedule, the first addition added early in the 
boil is the bittering hops. I think I am correct in assuming that FWH 
does not affect or adjust this part of the schedule. The second hop 
addition, added mid-boil is the flavoring hops and the third hop 
addition, added at the end of the boil is the aroma hop addition.

Now obviously, the second and third hop additions are affected by using 
the FWH method. What has been VERY unclear up to now, is how these hop 
additions are affected. Are they reduced? Are they eliminated in favor 
of FWH? Do you keep the aroma hops on schedule at the end of boil or 
move them to FWH? Do part or all of the flavor hops go into FWH? How 
does FWH affect the quantity of hops required (I know this is a very 
subjective question, but WTH)?

Please, for us FWH neophytes, if you could give us a basic recipe 
adjustment schedule for altering the hop quantities and additions, we 
may all be on our way to smoother, more 'harmonic' beers ( I didn't know 
beers could carry a tune).


Dan



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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 06:26:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: What do you drink from?

[Bernard Morey asks where to find the English pub
glasses with the ridge 2/3 the way up...]

In Sydney, those often-Chinese-run "junk shops" --
you know, the ones that sold the $3 umbrellas that
fall apart in a week -- are the source.  It's not 
often that you'll find them, but I picked up a
case of those exact glasses for $1 each some
time back.  (I wish I'd bought more, now.)  
I imagine the situation is the same in Melbourne.  
Just keep prowling.  

The same applies to the USA, for those interested.
Dollar stores that handle product overruns will
sometimes have interesting (and cheap) glassware:
Weissbier glasses for $1 each, German pils $1 each.
But don't count on a decent selection on any given
day, or even anything worth buying at all.  And
if you see what you want, buy them *NOW*, or 
you'll return later to a shelf restocked with 
cheap cocktail tumblers.

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA




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Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 09:37:05 -0400
From: "Jeff D. Greenly" <jgreenly at hsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: freezers

K Mychajlonka <mychajlonka at yahoo.com> writes on the subject of
freezers...

>...I noticed the shelves were fixed and cannot be moved. In other
words the coils are integrated into the shelves. My question is can I
somehow make this freezer 
>into a lagering fridge without too much trouble? Or should I get rid
of it and start searching for one that is better suited for my purpose?
I had one Idea of building a
>son-of-fermentation chamber next to it and using the cold air of the
freezer for my "ice jugs", but that would require either a collar on the
freezer or cutting a whole in 
>it. 
 
Others may disagree with me, but I think that this is a lucky break for
you. If you have the room, build a fermentation chamber just as you have
suggested, insulating with foamboard, etc. and leave a gap on one side
of the door, for access. Use the freezer's door as the door to your
chamber and put some sheet metal around the lip of the opening for the
door gasket to seal against. Get a temperature controller from Ranco or
similar and there you go! You might also eventually consider balancing
things out with a light bulb heater, or something equivalent.
 
BTW, someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but there is no way to remove
those shelves--they are integral. Maybe you could mount a small fan in
the bottom of the freezer to move air past them and just think of them
as cooling vanes... Great way to impress your friends, no?
 
:-)
 
Jeff


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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:57:21 -0500
From: Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: RE: What do you drink from?

Howdy!

Well, I've got a mix of glasses from pilsner, to various heavy mugs I've
*ahem* acquired over the years from some bars. Lately, I really like the 
heavier pint glasses...without the bulges like you described. I live in NOLA,
and have found that a great beer bar here, The Bulldog, on Magazine St. has
a special on Wednesday evenings.  You get to keep every pint glass from every
pint of beer you order...

Great way to stock up on a collection of good glasses. I have a second refrig.
to keep beer, kegs, carboys in...and I devote the top freezer to keep my
beer drinking containers in....nice and frosty!!

Kelly

You said:
- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 20:00:59 +1000
From: "B Morey" <bernardmorey at optushome.com.au>
Subject: What do you drink from?

What everyone's best or favourite glass to drink a fine beer from?

I've been using bulls-eye (?) glasses with a handle, but they're
heavy. Might get pilsner glasses but the larger ones are a bit tall
for the glass rack in the dishwasher.

I'd like to find UK-style pub glasses -- with the bulge about 2/3 the
way up. Can't find them in Melbourne -- has anyone seen them?

Bernard Morey
- ------------------------------
- -- 


- ------------------

"Oh, you hate your job? Why didn't you say so? There's a support
group for that. It's called EVERYBODY, and they meet at the bar."

- ------------------

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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 09:04:05 -0500
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: RE: Corny Tank Plug Thread?

Mark in Kalamazoo wrote:

"Has anyone identified the female thread on a ball-lock corny's tank
plug
(connector)?"

I was trying to match these up a few months ago because I wanted to add
a ball lock gas-in fitting to my brew fridge door.  The closest I was
able to find was 1/4" flare fittings.  They're close but not the same.
You might be able to make them work with some teflon tape.  I ended up
switching to air tool quick disconnects, which have a standard size
threading.  

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[215, 264.5] Rennerian


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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 09:38:31 -0500
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: RE: Widgets

Ryan,

Somewhere, and I'm not sure where, there is a website which dissects and
describes the widget.  The widget is inserted into the container and the
container is given a shot of liquid nitrogen right before being sealed.
The pressure from the nitrogen forces beer into the widget.  When the
container is opened, the pressure is released and the beer shoots back
out of the widget, creating foam.  It's similar to Jeff Renner's "Pocket
Beer Engine" concept where a syringe is filled with beer from the
drinking glass and shot back into the bottom of the glass.  

I believe that the rocket widget in bottles of Guinness is different in
that it somehow only releases beer back into the bottle when the bottle
is tipped back - therefore releasing the foam over the course of
drinking directly from the bottle.  I'm not sure why you'd want to drink
Guinness directly from the bottle, but that was the concept behind it's
invention.

I don't see why a widget couldn't be re-used.  You'd probably need a
source of liquid nitrogen and a way to seal your bottles quickly.  You'd
have to determine how much liquid nitrogen to inject to create the foam
without blowing up your bottles.

Hope this helps,

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[215, 264.5] Rennerian


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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:29:49 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Baking Powder, extended sparge, Thanx to Karl too, Guinness Widget

Brewsters:

- ------------------
David,

I wouldn't try baking powder as a water treatment as it doesn't do anything
you want to do in water treating and has as lots of other gunk ( as you
pointed out) in there including sodium and aluminum which you don't want in
your beer. Save the baking powder for your biscuits.

As an aside, baking powder was at one time thought to lead to impotence.
Following a profitless stay at a '49er gold mining camp in California, a
prostitute shook her fist at the camp and was heard to utter as she left
"Bakin' Powder eatin' sonsofabitches".

The purpose of water treating is not to provide "minerals" ( as your
comments suggest to me)  but to modify the pH of the mash and to modify the
taste to some extent in the finished beer.  This requires minerals like
calcium and magnesium ions to react with components of the mash which then
releases protons which modifies the mash pH by lowering it to the desired
( but not necessary) 5.2-5.3 range.

As there are many natural buffers in the mash, water treating is not needed
with most water supplies, in my opinion, except in making British beers
which need the mineral after taste. Some very hard water may need to be ion
exchanged for the lighter beers and some water boiled and cooled to remove
calcium when it exists as the bicarbonate. Consider yourself lucky that you
have soft water.

The "sulfur" you are worried about in gypsum is tightly bound to oxygen in
form of a sulfate ion and is not chemically accessible under brewing
conditions and gypsum is not very soluble, so don't worry about it.

- ----------------------
Gary,

The pH of the sparged liquor rises during the sparge ( approaching the pH of
the raw water) as the various buffering substances are rinsed out of the
grains. This is what causes the problem with extended leaching.  This higher
pH extracts various tannic substances from the husk.

You can avoid this by using a small amount of lactic acid in your sparge
water.

And don't forget Karl, the man behind the scenes, in keeping this digest
operating spectacularly.

- -----------------------
Ryan,

Despite what the diagram says, I doubt the Guinness rocket widget contains
air, but more likely nitrogen and carbon dioxide as in the original ball
widget.


Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:44:49 -0400
From: "Jeff Woods" <woodsj at us.ibm.com>
Subject: Running out of Sugar Blues

Hello to all.  I'm mostly a lurker but feel compelled to write the
collective with a problem noticed while stepping up from 5 gallon to 10
gallon batches.  I've made 5-6 10 gallon batches and notice a difference
with the proportion of sparge time it takes for the sugars to be rinsed
from the grain.  This has been noticed with different types of malts but
using the same mash and sparge water temperature.  I seem to happen for 5
gallon batches but more dramatically with larger brews.  Don't recall this
being discussed while reading HBD in the past 4-5 years.

In doing all-grain batches, I use a sparge arm whirlygig.....love to watch
it go around sprinkling hot water on the grain bed.  Anyway, the first
runnings are highly concentrated as you would expect.  They are normally in
the 1.080's to 1.090's range for 18-24 pounds of fermentables.  I check
gravity of the runnings every few gallons or so, mostly for curiousity but
also to see how much sugar is left and avoid oversparging - which has been
posted many times.  The  sugars seem to last for 3-4 gallons then drop
dramatically, first down to the 1.030's then after another few gallons down
to almost 1.000.  This past weekend was a prime example.  Tried to brew 10
gallons of an English bitter with target gravity of 1.040.  First runnings
were 1.090 then dropped down to 1.020's after 4-5 gallons, then to zero
after 8 gallons.  Let the tun drain and I'm left short of wort.  Big batch
sparging usually takes approx 90 minutes.  For this batch I added 2 gallons
plain water for 12 gallons boiled down to 10.  I overshot gravity and made
a 1.050 ESB instead of a lower gravity special bitter.

It seems like the sugars run out quickly for the larger batches compared to
5 gallon.  For me trying to hit target gravity is more difficult.  Does
anyone have a  similar situation ?  Are there any remedies to more evenly
extract the sugar from the grains ?  This is not a huge problem but
somewhat nagging making hitting target gravity unpredictable.  Do I just
accept this as part of my system and plan for it ?

Jeff Woods
Camp Hill, PA



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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 12:49:57 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Customer Service" <experts at paddockwood.com>
Subject: Camden conversion clarification

John Adsitt refers to a quick Google search in HBD #3953:

"... in the case of Camden tablets, one of those quotations told
me that "One level teaspoon of sodium metabisulphite = 1 Camden tablet,"

Folks thinking that 1 level teaspoon of metabisulphite powder is the
equivalent of 1 Camden tablet could be in for a nasty shock. It may be
important to any brewers considering throwing in metabisulphite into their
brews: the full quote from the page referral is:

"1 Camden tablet = 1 level 5 ml teaspoon of a 10% solution of
metabisulphite, not the undissolved powder as stated in Part 1. A 10%
solution consists of 1 oz powder made up to half pint solution, or 100 gms
made up to 100 ml. " from
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/dpickett/docs/cba/cba3/v1i3p5.htm

or to put it another way:

"1/2 gram of Potassium Metabisulphite powder is the equivalent of 1 Campden
Tablet or 335 mg available free SO2. 1 Tsp. of Potassium Metabisulphite
powder weighs approximately 7 grams. It is easiest to mix 1 tsp. with 100
mls sterile water and then divide the solution appropriately (i.e. 10 mls
solution = 1/10 tsp. powder)." from
http://www.paddockwood.com/catalog_chemicals.html#winemaking


cheers,

Stephen Ross -- "Vitae sine cerevisiis sugant."

Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK, Canada
experts at paddockwood.com  www.paddockwood.com



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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:37:14 -0400
From: "Eric R. Lande" <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Guinness Widget problem

In HBD #3954 Ryan asks about using a widget in bottling homebrew.

I saw an article about this in Brew Your Own magazine March/April 2002. 
Mr. Wizard says that the beer is carbonated with thier gas blend and put
into the bottle or can over the empty widget.  A drop of liquid nitrogen
is added right before sealing the package.  Since liquid nitrogen has a
very low boiling point, it boils in the bottle and makes enough pressure
to force beer into the widget.  When you open the beer the pressure
release forces the beer in the widget out the small holes quickly and
creates the small bubble effect.  That's the Readers Digest style
version; the article is over a page long but that gives you the idea. 
Oh, it also says that you need special bottles to handle the extra high
pressure needed for this reaction.  Hope this helps.

By the way, Ryan, I didn't read the web site that you mentioned, but I
would be suspect of any source that says that a brewer carbonates their
beer with 25% oxygen.

Happy brewing.


Eric Lande
Doylestown, PA


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Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 20:13:09 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Guinness Widget problem solved?

"Ryan and Shelly" <furstenau at worldnet.att.net> wrote from Omaha, NE:

>Have I just solved the riddle of the Guinness Widget?  I just stumbled
>across the following website.
>http://www.wired.com/news/photo/0,1860,49020,00.html
>
>In my previous post, I had asked what was in the Guinness Widget.  It
>appears from this website the the widget contains a "precise mix of gas (75%
>Nitrogen and 25% Oxygen).  This is almost exactly the percentages found in
>pure air. (79% N2 and 21% O2)

This is almost surely a typo at this site.  If you click on "the 
whole story," you find that it is 75% nitrogen and 25% CO2, not 25% 
oxygen.  This only stands to reason.  You wouldn't want O2 in the 
package - it would oxidize the beer.

AJ DeLange posted a summary of the probable process in HBD 3167 on 10 Nov 1999:

I can tell you what I think happens. The widget, probably filled with
nitrogen gas (to prevent exposure of the beer to oxygen), at ambient 
pressure gets tossed into the can which is then filled with 
carbonated beer. A couple of
drops of liquid N2 are added and the can is sealed. It then goes through flash
Pasteurization which increased the pressure in the can greatly as the
nitrogen vaporizes. Apparently it does not do so completely before the can is
sealed. The high pressure forces beer into the widget (whose interior is still
at atmospheric pressure). The can then cools and pressure equilibrates at
an atmosphere or so above ambient with the widget containing beer. When the
top gets popped the pressure in the headspace and the beer instantly drops
to ambient but the pressure in widget cannot drop so fast because it
communicates to the beer only through a tiny hole. This results in a 
thin stream of beer being forced into to can through the hole and the 
agitation this causes
has a similar effect to that of the sparkler in a real draft system. 
The older widgets were fixed to the bottom so the beer made a 
fountain up the side
of the can. I assume the release of pressure causes the new, loose-ball widget
to start flopping about, spinning etc.

Subsequently Phil wrote back asking how certain I was that this is 
the process. I'm quite confident that the bit about the liquid 
nitrogen is correct. This is documented in books like Kunze's. What 
happens when the lid is pulled I'm not so sure of. I can't see 
through the can and even if I could Guinness is too dark to see 
through!

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 17:56:02 -0700
From: "dave holt" <brewdave at hotmail.com>
Subject: MCAB

I have a couple of questions about the MCAB competition.  I've have read 
about it here for some time, looked at the MCAB link on the HBD home page, 
searched the archives, but am still unclear how it works.

There are qualifying events throughout the year with the styles identified 
for the competition.  I can enter any of these qualifying competitions?  
Like a typical competition, I send in my 3 bottles, entry fee, and 
entry/recipe form.  Winning first place in any style in any of these 
qualifying events qualifies me for the Championship competition?  Or is it 
the Best of Show from each qualifying event?  If first place in a style is 
the qualifying mechanism, does that mean I am locked into only that style 
for the Championship?  As you can see, I have many questions how this 
competition works.  If there is a concise place that details all the 
particulars, I would be indebted.

Those who have participated in MCAB, has it been a worthwhile experience?  I 
would be interested in other well organized competitions as well.

I soured on the local competitions in Arizona a couple of years ago.  
Several months to receive the scoresheets is normal. The last one I entered, 
after 5 months I had not received my scoresheets.  After talking to a club 
member (I'm not a member), my scoresheets showed up several weeks later 
minus medals.  I'm not in for the recognition, medals, whatever, I want the 
scoresheets.  One of the best things I did as a young brewer was enter my 
beer in competitions and work on the problems/feedback I received on the 
scoresheets.  I would taste my beer and see if I could educate my palate to 
what the judges were picking up.  I particularly value the feedback when 
attempting new styles.  Anyway, I miss the feedback.

Two Hbd'ers correctly identified where I live, well with the help of 
Mapquest.  Should have known the King of Coordinates was up to the 
challenge.  Now where is that Rennerian calculator again......

Dave Holt
brewing in Arizona





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