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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Dump Gump in Dallas! ("Rob Moline")
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  sparge (Darrell_Leavitt/SUNY)
  stout (Darrell_Leavitt/SUNY)
  Re: Spoiled Results - Argh! ("Chad Gould")
  cloudy runoff ("Peter Fantasia")
  empty kegs (byron towles)
  Re: Questions on Double Bucket Sparging Systems (Demonick)
  Ohio makes progress! (David Harsh)
  I need some help - harsh flavors after carbonating (Karen & Troy Hager)
  Re: Spoiled Results - Argh! (Ronald La Borde)
  Plastic PET bottles ("Tanksalot")
  How to protect sight tube from heat? ("Gary Smith")
  Mashing Questions for a Barley Wine (Don Lake)


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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 00:47:57 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dump Gump in Dallas!

			Dump Gump in Dallas!
Folks,
     It's off to Dallas for Gump. I hear they have both GREAT STEAKS and
BEER in Texas, and I plan to find as much of each as I can!
     Hoping to drink as many beers with as many homebrewers as is humanly
possible in Dallas... I will be easy to find....Just look for a tall
handsome man, wearing a tuxedo and a baseball cap adorned with a "Houston
Foam Rangers" badge. I will be flanked by several dozen Dallas Cheerleaders
carrying placards that say "DUMP GUMP IN DALLAS," "MR. PUKE And BARF," and
"SHUT UP AND DRINK YOUR BEER!"

     No really, there will only be 2 Dallas Cheerleaders escorting me, so
the placards will have to go.....(I can't afford the 2 cheerleaders
either...but they don't know that yet.....hush!!)
     Nontheless, when you do make your way to the best Convention yet, I do
hope to make your acquaintance...and renew many that go back for years. The
folks that have set this puppy up are more numerous than I can begin to
think of...so I will have to consolidate all their effort in the name of one
man, who first proposed this convention site...Dave Dixon....and say
"Thanks, mate! It's blokes like you that make this a great sport!"

     Beyond that, let me thank all of you that voted to keep me on the
Board. I know there has been some controversy this year regarding my
position...but please be assured, as long as I remain here, I pledge to both
protect and promote your best interests, as I see them, and am able to help.
I guess that's all anyone could offer....not much really, but I will never
sell you short.
     But that's what I think the AHA is about....helping brewers become
better brewers with the knowledge that we already have.....starting the new
fellas off to a better start than we had...and providing, with the events
and content of Conventions like the one I am about to attend, places where
we can get to see the face behind the e-mail....have a few beers, and
perhaps, more than bloody likely, leave having learned something more than
we came with, and having given something to someone else.
     That's brewing.
     That's life.
     Thanks, mates.

     Now, where are my internet URL's for Dallas Cheerleaders and
steakhouses?

Gump in a Dallas State of Mind

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 01:09:52 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

			The Jethro Gump Report
>From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
>Subject: feed and bleed force carbonation
     Rob asks about the feed and bleed system of force carb'ing...I assure
you it works, but much depends upon the quality of your airstone, the temp
of the beer, and the most important element that you have a problem
with....top pressure will reduce/eliminate the foaming.
     Quickly through my proceedure...
1)Fill tank of beer....
2)Place top pressure of 15psi on beer...
3)Now here's the really precise scientific part....place your ear against
the tank, and listen as you crack the valve to the airstone....once at the
appropriate 'note'...you can often feel the CO2 hose vibrate....again,
highly scientifically specific.....
4) Every 15 minutes or so...release top pressure to 15 from the 25-35 it has
reached.
5)After 45 minutes, test with a Zahm and Nagel CO2 Tester...(God's Gift to
Brewers!)
     Bottom line, in the last 2 days, I have carbed up 3 7BBL vessels of
brew...with airstones of varying length's and diameter...to a CO2 of 2.1
Vol's (+/-) within 45 minutes to 1.5 hours.

     It works....you have to see it to believe it.
Gump

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 06:55:03 -0400
From: Darrell_Leavitt/SUNY%SUNY at esc.edu
Subject: sparge

Luke;

  I went through a similarly frustating experience with the Zapap sort of
setup.  I pre-heated mine (before moving the converted grain from the
kettle into the tun) with REAL HOT water...then I placed 3 plates (2 large
dinner plates with a smaller saucer on top) in the false bottom...to use up
space, and to hold heat...I microwaved them just before placing them in the
bottom...  and I found that I held heat pretty well..

I am thinking that the heating element may be a factor for you, ie in
creating problems...and would try to sparge without it
to see..

 Also, I usually ran the spigot wide open for 1 to 2 quarts...to set the
grain bed...then tried to not let anything jar/ disturb the
bed....My sense is that compared to stainless lauter-tuns (Polarware,..)
your setup is very delicate..ie the grainbed can
too easlily get disturbed...and heating may do it as well...

Good luck..I also had similar problems...sometimes it would take a few
hours to complete the collection of my 6-7
gallons of wort!  Now I do it in about 1/2 hour...with a PolarWare tun...

Good luck...and please post to the Hbd to let us know ,....once you figure
it out!

Happy Brewing!
 ..Darrell



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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:08:51 -0400
From: Darrell_Leavitt/SUNY%SUNY at esc.edu
Subject: stout

Richard (ooh_rick at yahoo.com)   asks about the stout that I was bragging
about...yes I did start the conversion at
165F  in that I wanted it to be sweeter/ more mouthfeel,..etc,..and I
thought that by starting at the higher temp this might
occur...
 I have used just the Irish Ale yeast several times in the past, and like
the results,...but I have found myself in an experimental mood lately, and
in the convenient position of being "yeast wealthy" (I buy much more than I
can use...in that I reuse ...usually
3 times)...and  concerned with the fact that I didn't make a starter,..so I
figured that one way of increasing the amt of health
yeast was to pitch 2 vials!

I think that the biggest problem with this recipe may very well be the
foam/ head retention.  I have pushed the use of malted oats up this high
before (2 lb) only to find that , I think , due to the oil content in
them...head was negatively effected...
 ..but I am willing to live with that...so long as the wonderful flavor
remains through bottling and pigging...

Please let us know how yours comes out

Happy Brewing! and thanks to the Janitors, and contributors to the
Hbd,...without which I would not be brewing pretty good beer!
 ...Darrell



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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:55:30 -0400
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Spoiled Results - Argh!

> I've been brewing for over 6 years and have made many successful batches.
I
> used to brew in upstate NY, with spring water as my water source.  Now I'm
> in FL, using city water.

Hmm... Probably not the water itself, unless the smell was slightly
"medicinal / phenolic" and more "off" than anything else. Our county
(Pinellas) recently switched to chloramine to sanitize their water system.
It has been theorized (in one of my brew books, and in other posts) that
chloramine cannot be removed by boiling (like chlorine can). Rather, you
have to charcoal filter the water to get the chloramine out. Note that I've
heard from others that chloramine really doesn't affect the taste of the
final beer, though. Other posts suspect that even the more stable chloramine
will bind to malt and produce off-flavors. (For the last brew I did, I
didn't take the chance and used spring water.)

Chloramine would not cause sourness though. In my case, I don't think I
scrubbed well enough. I've heard sanitation is 90% physical, 10% chemical -
overreliance on chemicals is not a good idea, in other words. If that's
right, if you are pouring chemicals in the vessel but not getting down and
dirty with scrubbing, even if you can't see a spot, I can imagine there are
still bacteria in the fermentation buckets waiting to pop up.

Not all bottled spring water is created equal, either - I've heard people
tracing infections to that. The last batch I brewed with Zephyrhills, a
common brand in Florida, so I'll let you know how it turns out.

It's possible that you have a couple of things going at once. If the glass
batches were only "iffy" and the stainless steel container "sour", maybe
doing a fermentation in both vessels will yield further clues.




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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:22:41 -0400
From: "Peter Fantasia" <fantasiapeter at hotmail.com>
Subject: cloudy runoff

Luke asked about clearing the runoff from a zapap lauter/mash tun. I have a
zapap I use occasionally for 5 gal batches. Pick up some stainless steel
screen and make a sort of easymasher type fixture. Attach it to the outlet
in the bottom where your dead space is. Runoff will clear almost
immediately.
Just roll a peice of the screen into a tube about 6 inches long and fold the
outlet usind a peice of copper tubing and a gum rubber stopper or whatever
works.

The cloudiness could be due to hot break from the heating element. The
stainless screen should remove that as well.

Brew on,
Pete in NJ


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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:04:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: byron towles <btowles at yahoo.com>
Subject: empty kegs

I'm looking to pick up an empty full sized keg for use as a brewpot. I'm
not certain where is the best place to pick up such items. I've gotten
a couple of suggestions, but would like to know how other homebrewers 
have found their modified kegs (if they use them at all). Any suggestions
as to how and where I can find an empty keg would be appreciated. And, if
it helps, the local area is New Orleans. Thanks in advance.

Byron Towles

=====
- ------------------------------------
The two most common elements in the
Universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity!
- ------------------------------------



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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:52:20 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Questions on Double Bucket Sparging Systems

In a mash tun, the grain bed should form the filter.  In a proper
system no other filter is required other than the false bottom
and the grain bed.   A bit of recirculation should clear the 
particulates from the foundation water and bottom of the grain bed.

That said, we need to know more about your setup.

What is the purpose of the grain bag?

If it is to keep grain out of the foundation space then the holes
in your false bottom are too big.  I used 1/8" holes on 1/4" centers 
for my false bottom and these work well.  However, were I to drill 
them again I'd make them 3/32".  Tropical fish hobby supply stores 
will have a food-grade fine plastic netting.  If your holes are too 
big use this netting to cover your false bottom instead of the grain 
bag. 

For a description of my round mash tun false bottom search the archives
for "pizza pan".

How is the false bottom sealed to the bucket?  

If it's a press fit or glued, "cup inside a cup", then it is probably
sealed pretty well.  If it is not sealed very well, consider using vinyl
tubing of the correct size as a gasket.  This may not apply, but vinyl
tubing can be slit length-wise along one side, then pressed over the edge
of a metal or plastic sheet.  The tubing will then be a gasket.

3.5 quarts of foundation water is a lot.  It's almost a gallon.  Try 
to reduce that by half, though I can't tell you how to do it.  Can 
you cut down the false bottom and press it deeper into the tun?  Can
you cut down the false bottom, use the vinyl tubing gasket trick and
flip the false bottom over?  This would be an "inverted cup inside a 
cup".  You may then need to use a pick up tube on the spigot to get 
under the false bottom.

You can use a slotted manifold in a round mash tun.  Nice thing about
a slotted manifold is that it is made from tubing, and even if your
spigot hole is well above the bottom of the tun the tubing can be 
bent to lay on the bottom.  Slotted tubing made from 1/2" copper can
be assembled using a press fit and then everything can be disassembled
for cleaning.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:07:06 -0400
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Ohio makes progress!

Greetings-

It seems Ohio may have figured it out - the state Senate passed a law
doubling the permitted alcohol content in beer to 12%!  Read the news at:

[cut and paste required for full url]

http://www.channelcincinnati.com/sh/news/ohio/
stories/news-ohio-151952020020619-070647.html

Dave Harsh 				Bloatarian Brewing League
Cincinnati, OH



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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:55:53 -0700
From: Karen & Troy Hager <thager at smcoe.k12.ca.us>
Subject: I need some help - harsh flavors after carbonating

I need some help,

I have had a repeated problem ever since I have  started kegging. My problem
is that my beer tastes/smells excellent until I force carbonate it. It then
picks up stale and harsh flavors. I spot these flavors as very similar to
some of the oxidized flavors I taste in  commercial bottles of beer that
have gone off. The flavors have a hard edge, the complexity, liveliness and
delicacy have gone and are replaced by flavors that resemble old coffee or
old tea flavors - harsh is a perfect descriptor. The hops have not
diminished though. In fact I repeatedly have had very bitter and harsh
flavors even when using low IBUs, very soft water and noble hops.

I know kegging is difficult and cleaning and sanitization are extremely
important. I am meticulous with my cleaning and sanitization methods. I soak
and hand scrub all of my cornies with TSP and rinse well right after their
use. I sanitize everything before use with iodophor or star-san. I pressure
cook keg fittings and lids. I soak and brush all keg lines every time I
change kegs. I also soak and scrub all taps and quick disconnects every
time.

I recently brewed a continental lager. I used undermodified Budvar malt and
German hops to about 22 IBUs. I lagered it for 4 weeks. It tasted
incredible- a very beautiful malt aroma, nicely balanced malt and hop
flavors, the flavors were very complex and delicate from beginning to end -
I was very excited that I had produced a very fine beer.  I then placed
15psi on it and left it for a week.  After cleaning and sanitizing  lines
and taps I anxiously pulled my first pint.... Ugh! NASTY!!!!!! Everything
good about the beer was gone and was replaced by those same harsh, old,
stale, bitter flavors I have had in so many of my beers. It was truly
undrinkable and I had to throw it all out.

In the past I have thought maybe I had a bad bottle of CO2. I posted about
this and many said that this was highly unlikely. I replaced it anyway with
no differences. The only thing I can think of is that some how, some way O2
is getting into my keg when I carbonate it. The only thing that has stayed
the same is the regulator. Could it be that the regulator is bad and is some
how letting in air? I know oxidation can produce the flavors I am tasting.
One strange thing I have noticed is that my CO2 tanks seem to last forever -
even though I use plenty of gas to purge tanks and bottles, etc. - but the
pressure gauge on the tank seems to always stay the same. I am very
frustrated and have spent a lot of time and money on this hobby. It kills me
to have all my dollars and labors go down the drain.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Troy



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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:57:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ronald La Borde <pivoron at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Spoiled Results - Argh!

Well Greg, it seems like you
do more effort at sanitation
then I do, and still you have that off flavor.

>From your description, your techniques certainly 
seem more than adequate, so I will try to conjure up
what may be the cause - just guessing here though.

Think about the O2 filter, try a brew once by just
using the shake, shake and shake method. Totally 
eliminate the O2, the filter, the stone, etc.

Does your immersion chiller have a slow tiny leak?

Here is one that I wonder about on my brews.
How do you cover the wort while chilling with
the immersion chiller?  Could be dirty air getting
in as you chill.  I have been using a crude but
seemingly OK method - I place a large plastic bag, 
a yard bag, shoping center bag, any bag large
enough to cover the top of the kettle and hang down
the sides.  I do this and let it steam for about
5 minutes before the boil ends.  This is crude,
but works for me.


=====
Ron
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 16:22:58 -0400
From: "Tanksalot" <tanksalot at rogers.com>
Subject: Plastic PET bottles

My Counter Pressure Bottle Filler (CPF) fills champagne type bottles fine.
But the rubber Bung won't fit plastic PET bottles.  So I'm looking for a
supplier of tapered rubber bungs (#4 Bored is the size suggested), or any
other ideas for filling.  Any other comments would be welcome.  Larry,
WinePros Wine & Homebrew club, London, ON



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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 17:04:25 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com>
Subject: How to protect sight tube from heat?

Hi,

I have a sight tube on my boil kettle, a thermometer & 
the valve. The boil kettle is a 15 gal SABCO vessel. The 
heat for the boil kettle comes from a Camp Chef with 
one heckuva flame. I'm concerned the overflow heat will 
ruin either the thermometer or the rubber in the sight 
gauge as both are barely above the weld line on the 
bottom of the keg.

I looked around for some "asbestos" quality heat proof 
material to run around the bottom border of the keg to 
act as a heat shield but no luck unless I want to buy 
industrial quantities of insulation. 

Anyone found a reasonable answer to protecting the 
meter & sight gauge under high sustained heat like we 
get when we achieve boil?

Thanks,

Gary



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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 19:08:24 -0400
From: Don Lake <dlake at amuni.com>
Subject: Mashing Questions for a Barley Wine

I am planning to brew my first barley wine using the all-grain method
using a converted sanke keg as a mash tun.  My questions are:

 1) Approximately how many pounds of grain can I comfortably mash in a
converted sanke keg?

2) What kind of effeciency should I expect (I normally get 70-75%)?

3) Should I not sparge for the first runnings until it runs dry and then
add water for a second runnings beer?

4) What else should I be asking?

Thanks
Don Lake
Orlando, FL



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