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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Watery Beer ("Nicholas McLaren")
  Re: pump recommendations ("Kent Fletcher")
  Re: Brass treatment  / welder in Chicago? ("Kent Fletcher")
  MCAB 5 Announcement! ("Louis Bonham")
  re: pump recommendations (Ed Jones)
  re: A House Bug? (John Schnupp)
  Microbrews in Ontario (John Scime)
  Hopping Questions ("Bates, Floyd SEPCO")
  Burner control using grill burner knobs? ("John Bonney")
  RE: Porous kegs, not casks (Brian Lundeen)
  Phenolic Problem, con't ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Portland Beer & Stuff ("Eric R. Theiner")
  re: pump recommendations (McNally Geoffrey A NPRI)
  post-fermentation oxidation ("robin griller")
  Homebrewing in Germany (Andrew Nix)
  AHA Conference Reports ("Michael L. Hall")
  Re: House Bugs (Mark Sierakowski)
  Timing ("Jim")
  Fermentation finished warm! (ronrweaver)


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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:03:24 +1100
From: "Nicholas McLaren" <Nicholas.McLaren at aus.dupont.com>
Subject: Watery Beer

Hi everyone,

I am new to the digest and new to brewing. I have found that my first two
brews have come out a little bit watery.
I used Coopers Lager with Coopers/CSR brewing sugar. The kit was 1.7kg and
the total mixture was 23 litres. The yeast was pitched at the proper
temperature and the bottles were primed and everything went along fine.

The beer has a fine flavour and is all fine except for the fact that it is
a bit watery. I find that there is a large layer of sediment at the bottom
of the fermenting tub. Is this normal? How do I go about enhancing the
flavour a bit?

I know this is probably a really simple problem, but I don't know how to
fix it. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Nicholas McLaren



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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 01:24:04 -0700
From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher at socal.rr.com>
Subject: Re: pump recommendations

Ken,

Check out morebeer.com, if you haven't already.  They have both standard
(really all most need bor brewing) and the hi-temp mag-drive pumps, at
competitive prices.

Kent Fletcher

> From: "Ken Wagner" <kjwagner at insight.rr.com>
> I had my heart set on a high temp pump from Moving Brews (6144MM).  But,
> it looks like that isn't going to happen.  So, I'm looking for
> alternatives.  Does anybody have any recommendations?




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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 01:32:33 -0700
From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher at socal.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Brass treatment  / welder in Chicago?

Treatment to remove surface lead from brass fittings:

John Palmer sez:
>Brass and Bronze are primarily copper and are safe for drinking water
usage.
>Some alloys contain a small percentage of lead to aid machining and these
may
>be soaked in a 2:1 vol:vol solution of white distilled vinegar and hydrogen
>peroxide (common grocery store varieties) for 15 minutes to dissolve off
any
>surface lead. The metal will turn a buttery gold color when its done. If
the
>solution turns green, it means its past done and you are starting to
>dissolve copper.

As to welding, you want TIG, not MIG.  While MIG can be used, TIG produces a
MUCH smoother and cleaner weld.  Check local listings under welding, pick a
shop that advertises SANITARY welding, you shouldn't have any trouble in any
urban area finding a competent welder.



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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 04:16:04 -0500
From: "Louis Bonham" <lkbonham at houston.rr.com>
Subject: MCAB 5 Announcement!

Greetings all:

*Whew*!  Back from a great time at the NHC (more on that in a later
post).  

On behalf of the MCAB Steering Committee, I am pleased to announce that
the fifth Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing (MCAB) will be hosted
by BURP (Brewers United for Real Potables) in the Washington, DC area.
BURP is well known for its Spirit of Free Beer and Spirit of Belgium
events, and we are excited that MCAB will be at an Eastern US venue for
the first time.

Tentative date is January 31 - February 1, 2003.  While this date is
seven months away, please help spread the word, particularly to homebrew
clubs and to folks who have already qualified for MCAB 5.  (There are
three remaining Qualifying Events for MCAB 5  . . . see
http://hbd.org/mcab/mcab_5_qualifying_events.htm for details.)

The local organizer of the event will be Bill Ridgely (ridgely at burp.org)
 . . . if you are interested in sponsoring MCAB 5 or helping with the
event, please contact Bill.  The BURP people will also be updating the
MCAB website in coming weeks with additional information on event
information as it becomes available.

If you've never been to an MCAB I urge you to  attend . . . as many HBD
regulars can tell you, past MCAB's have featured some of the most
cutting-edge technical presentations in the world of amateur brewing,
perhaps the toughest amateur beer competition around, and great parties
and related events.  Truly a great time!

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me.

Louis K. Bonham
lkbonham at hbd.org
Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing



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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 08:42:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ed Jones <ejones at ironacres.com>
Subject: re: pump recommendations

Ken, if you're patient you could get Doug to order one for you. Or,
you could check out www.morebeer.com and order there. If you're in a hurry,
check out the local Grainger dealer. You'll pay more, but it's fast if they
have them in stock. Also, we have a Little Giant pump dealer in town
you could buy from if Grainger doesn't have what you need.

- --
Ed Jones - Columbus, Ohio U.S.A - [163.8, 159.4] [B, D] Rennerian

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 05:40:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: A House Bug?

From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
<snip a bunch of the story>
>So over the past two years, I've decided that it's not my technique or 
>equipment that's doing it to me, but a bug floating around in my brewhouse.
<snip some of the brewhouse description>
>And there is an A/C unit that blows continuously (and the fact that 
>the electrostatic filter has never been changed might be part of my problem).

Then Dave Burley suggests:
>Although some would disagree, usually the air is not the source. I would
>look at other potential sources first.
<snip great ideas about keeping equipment clean>
>Remember, first the surface has to be clean and then you apply your
>sanitizer.

Well Eric, I would have to suspect your AC unit.  I know Dave might not agree
but he did have some excellent suggestions about cleaning the equipment.  Let
me tell you about a friend of mine and the infection problem he had.  His name
is Bennett Dawson.  He used to have a homebrew supply shop (The Brew Lab) and
then later a brewery (Rail City Ale) on the same premises.  Bennett used to
assist new brewers by helping them brew their first batch in the shop.  He also
used to do most of his personal brewing in the shop too.

He kept on getting infected beer.  He spent a lot of time and energy tracking
the problem down.  The long and short is that whenever he transfer beer from
primary to secondary or secondary to kegs/bottles it would become infected.  He
then started doing "closed" transfers using CO2 to "push" the beer and the
infection problem was gone.  Same equipment.  One transfer method open to air
and one not.  The infection was airborne.  He found the AC was an old unit that
has apparently never been cleaned.  I can't remember his exact description but
as I remember it the filter and condensation drip tray were just about ready to
grow legs and walk.  All of this mold, wild yeasts, pollen, bacteria and
whatever else happened to be growing there was just being circulated by the AC
blower/fan.  He cleaned the AC and his problem was gone.

If I was you, I'd start with a good cleaning of the AC and new filters.  If the
stuff is floating around the air, where will it end up?  Exactly, on the
surface of your equipment.  You can clean and sanitize your equipment and it
will be ok but how do you clean beer or wort that was exposed to the
contaminated air?  Ayup, clean the air (or in this case the air conditioner).

=====
John Schnupp, N3CNL
??? Hombrewery
[560.2, 68.6] Rennerian
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200, Bumblebee



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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 05:42:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Scime <jascime at yahoo.com>
Subject: Microbrews in Ontario

Spensor Thomas asks about microbreweries and pubs in
southwestern Ontario.  Alas, Spensor, we in Onario are
blessed with a plethora of fine microbreweries and
brews to imbibe!  Unfortunately, you will need more
than a single day to try them all - I've lived here
all my life and still haven't personally met all (or
even most) of these beers!!

I think you are on the right track by going through
Guelph, Ontario.  Guelph is home to atleast three
brewing companies, including the rather large Sleeman
group (Sleeman and Upper Canada beers), the wonderful
Wellington County Brewery, makers of fine real ales,
and the F&M Brewery - I haven't had their beers yet,
but they do produce a cask-conditioned product that I
intend on trying while in Guelph this coming weekend!

Your one-stop shop for quality beer in Guelph (or in
Ontario, for that matter), is the Woolwhich Arms. 
This pub is part of the Arrow "Neighbourhood Pub
Group" <http://www.arrowpubs.com/> that specializes in
promoting Ontario micro-brewed beers.  The "Woolie"
will have a fantastic selection on tap, including
products from the Wellington, Niagara, Creemore
Springs, McAusland and Scotch Irish breweries.  Other
pubs in Ontario serving Scotch Irish products can be
found on that brewing company's website
<http://www.scotchirish.on.ca/>. Besides the great
beer selection, the Woolie is also a very nice pub to
pass time in - you will not be sorry! 

And if you happen to drive buy an open LCBO (gov't
owned liquor store) be sure to stock up on some
Creemore Springs lager, Neustadt Springs Scotch Ale,
bigRock traditional ale and any og the Wellington
products, to take back to Michigan with you.

Good Luck!!

John Scime
Almonte, Ontario





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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:55:50 -0500
From: "Bates, Floyd SEPCO" <floyd.bates at shell.com>
Subject: Hopping Questions

To address the little voice in my head:

If I follow this procedure:
90 minute boil
Hop additions at 60, 30, and 5 minutes
Whirlpool 15 minutes
Settle 15 minutes

Cumulative times for each addition:
	Bittering 90 minutes - I find that hopping for 90 minutes leaves a
little more harsh bitterness than I want.
	Flavor 60 minutes - Definitely in the realm of bittering.
	Aroma/Flavor 35 minutes - No aroma added and little flavor.

If utilization is a function of kettle gravity, time and form of hops,
should I move my hopping schedule forward by 30 minutes?  In other words,
should I follow this schedule instead:
	90 minute boil
	Hop additions at 30, zero, and 10 minutes before cooling

I realize this is unconventional; however, I am started to see that at least
theoretically it makes sense.

Cheers.




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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:30:00 -0400
From: "John Bonney" <john at ruthsx.com>
Subject: Burner control using grill burner knobs?

I'm in the process of building a 2 tier converted sanke system.  One of
the things I'd like to do is have a wood panel mounted on the front of
the system (I'm using slotted angle) that has both burner controls, and
burner igniters. 

Is this an easy thing to do?  I've heard of brewers using grill igniters
to light their burners,  but haven't heard of anyone using actual stove
or grill knobs to adjust the flame (other than those pin valve thingies
that come on the regulators with most outdoor cookers).  Is it a high
vs. low pressure thing?  Are there more visually appealing high pressure
adjustment knobs out there?

TIA,

John Bonney
Grand Rapids, MI



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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:07:26 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Porous kegs, not casks

Dave Burley writes:

> Brian Lundeen asks if he should give up his oak casks and go 
> to kegs with oak chips for his winemaking.  I wouldn't, as 
> 
> Does this mean untreated oak casks are OK for beer?  Nope. As 
> Kevin Crouch suggested, the porous nature of oak will allow 
> oxygen to spoil beer.

Dave, I'm afraid you missed the facetious nature of my post. However, your
reply did make me think I missed something, and I went back and carefully
re-read Kevin's posting. 

As far as I can tell, Kevin was NOT talking about casks, he was talking
about kegs. Stainless steel kegs. You know, two posts, a lid, gas goes in,
beer comes out. Kegs. Read his message again, and point out to me the
relevant passage that indicates he has veered, even briefly, onto the topic
of cask conditioning and storage.

So I again ask Kevin, where do you get the notion that stainless steel kegs
are porous? Perhaps my knowledge of the molecular nature of metals is
inadequate, but this strikes me as a piece of misinformation that deserves
challenging.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:06:27 -0400
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Phenolic Problem, con't

Dave Burley suggests that my problem may come from my water supply and/or 
poor sanitation practices.  I'd like to ask for other comments from 
everyone with an inclination (including Dave, of course) along those lines 
in light of further revelations:

I very well may have an infection in my water supply.  I'm using a charcoal 
filter and the line to my brewhouse has a bleed-valve which I use 
frequently during the winter months and will leave open when there's a 
freeze warning.  On the other hand, I do full boils and don't add water 
back to my beers, so I'm thinking that may not be it.  Furthermore, the 
wine kits that I make are the "bag-in-box" type that involve no boiling of 
the water, and they have shown none of this phenolic character (although 
maybe the higher acidity of the wine prevents the development of the 
infection?).

On the infected equipment side, I try to be careful about sanitation, but 
I'm willing to say that it could be the chink in my beer armor.  I'm 
thinking that I might start doing my transfers outside of the brewhouse in 
the open air and change only that one variable to see if my problem 
ceases.  If it does (and that being the only change I make) would it be 
reasonable to think that I do have a "house bug?"

Rick




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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:45:44 -0400
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Portland Beer & Stuff

I'm going to be in Portland, OR for a few days with my wife and son (3 
years).  Does anyone have an idea as to places to go and things to see that 
might interest me (i.e. beer and good food) and the rest of the family 
(i.e. stuff a toddler would like)?  Easy access from the light rail system 
is needed 'cos we won't have a car.

Thanks!

Rick




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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:30:20 -0400
From: McNally Geoffrey A NPRI <McNallyGA at Npt.NUWC.Navy.Mil>
Subject: re: pump recommendations

Hi All,

  In HBD #3973 Ken Wagner from Columbus, OH asked about sources other
than Moving Brews for a high temp pump.

  The Moving Brews model 6144MM pump is actually a March model
809-PL-HS pump.  I have one of these pumps in my direct fired RIMS
(bought from Moving Brews in 1998) and it has worked out great.

  I can't seem to locate a web page for March, but you can call them
at (847)729-5300.  They don't do any retail sales, but they will
point you to your local March distributor.

Jeff McNally
Tiverton, RI
South Shore Brew Club


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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:11:08 -0400
From: "robin griller" <robin_g at ica.net>
Subject: post-fermentation oxidation

Hi all,

It really is strange how many people seem to believe the notion, 
which we have been told is loopy doolally, that post-fermentation
oxidation can produce papery/wet cardboard flavours and aromas. 

Perhaps we shouldn't just presume that cardboard=hsa after all?

Now we hear that crazy idea popping up again (thanks Jeff!) that
bottle conditioned beer seems to be somewhat protected from such
things. Funny, I was reading a brewing science article (!) on some
compound associated with staling--sorry for my ambiguity, I can
always try to dig it up again if anyone wants--and the one thing I 
noticed from all the tables was: it wasn't until after the sillies
had filtered the beer that the compound went through the roof. 

Perhaps (some) commercial breweries can learn from (some of) us 
sensible homebrewers after all? 

Long live bottle conditioned beer! All hail real ale! 
All hail real lager--it does exist (even commercially)!! 
Live beer rules, dead beer drools!

Robin



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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:24:32 -0400
From: Andrew Nix <anix at vt.edu>
Subject: Homebrewing in Germany

Hey y'all,

If anyone on the list lives in Germany or has any info on homebrewing in 
Germany, please email me at beerbrewer at vt.edu.  I may be moving to 
Karlsruhe next January and wanted to find out what the situation is like in 
terms of clubs, getting supplies, etc.

Drewmeister
Andrew Nix
Department of Mechanical Engineering
Virginia Tech
anix at vt.edu
http://www.vt.edu:10021/A/anix



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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:15:21 -0600
From: "Michael L. Hall" <Mike.Hall at POBox.com>
Subject: AHA Conference Reports

The AHA conference reports have been great -- I especially liked Jim
Bermingham's and Mark Tumarkin's versions. As always, it was great
seeing everybody and putting faces to email addresses.

I wanted to make a few quick comments...

Mark Tumarkin writes:
> First, Dave Dixon and the rest of the Texas folks put on a hell of a
> party. Lots of great homebrew and lots of great homebrewers to share
> it with.  

That *was* a great party. Thanks, Dave and crew! (Did that blue latex
come completely off? :-) )

> The whole thing started out pretty rocky with the last minute hotel
> changes (kudos to Dave, Paul, et al for pulling that one off
> smoothly), but the Marriott was very nice and they put up with us
> without too many complaints.

A little bird told me that Gary Glass (AHA Project Coordinator)
also deserves a lot of the credit for getting the hotel switched and
making everything work as well as it did. And I heard that Dave Dixon 
was kept busy scouting out new locations on his lunch hours.

> Hell, even when they interrupted our singlemalt tasting
> it was done politely, and I'm sure at the instigation of the folks in the
> surrounding rooms. There were probably 20+ of us in Bev Blackwood's room late
> in the evening and we weren't being particularly quiet.

At one point during the evening I counted 26 people. Not bad for a
small hotel room.

Cheers,

 -Mike

============================================================================
Michael L. Hall, Ph.D.             	     	<mailto:MichaelHall at AOB.org>
President, Los Alamos Atom Mashers 	     	<http://hbd.org/atommash>
Member, AHA Board of Advisors      	     	<http://homebrew.org/AHA/>
============================================================================
Drink is the feast of reason and the flow of soul. -- Dr. Alexander Pope,
The First Satire of the Second Book of Horace



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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:48:50 -0700
From: Mark Sierakowski <msierakowsk at saddleback.edu>
Subject: Re: House Bugs

Hello all,

    In a reply to Eric Theiner, Dave Burley wrote:

>For example your water supply. If you can ( and no kids nor you will get
>burned)  crank your heater up to 180F to help eliminate this potential
>source and make your rinses more sanitary.

    If Eric has a toddler that is creative as mine are (currently 3 
and 5 years respectively), and unless he has a water heater dedicated 
to his brewhouse, keep it below 115F to avoid scalding the kids in 
the bathtub/sink. Kids are excellent knob/handle turners.

Mark Sierakowski
Mission Viejo, CA

Unknown Rennerian


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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:45:36 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Jim" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Timing

The worse beer and one of the best beers I have ever made was the same beer.
 It all had to do with the timing.
In a prior life, before retirement and moving to a ranch in West Texas, I
traveled extensively in my work.  In 1978 to 1980 I was the Program Manager
on a project in Saudi Arabia and Yemen.  The company I worked for had built
and was installing communications and flight following systems at several
airports in these two countries.  About once a month I would take a trip to
that part of the world to visit with the installation teams and our customer
  We were a subcontractor to Lockheed.  Lockheed was building 5 airports in
these countries, and had a large number of personnel living in compounds
nearby.  My installation teams lived in these Lockheed provided compounds. 
During my visits I was provided with guest quarters there.
At that time you could purchase alcoholic beverages in Yemen but not in
Saudi.  The men on long term assignment living in these Saudi compounds made
homebrew and wine.  When visiting, I would be invited to someone's apartment
to sample their brew.  These were absolutely horrible!  Some of the worst
beer and wine you could ever imagine.  I am sure that none of them had ever
attempted to brew beer or make wine prior to going to Saudi.  Of course
being a guest in their apartment, I told them that they made good tasting
brews.
Close to the end of the project, my "Field Program Manager" was reassigned
to a new program in Panama.  Not wanting to have to bring another person up
to speed and send them to Saudi for 6 to 9 months I decided to go and finish
out the program in-country myself.  Now let me tell you, somewhere around
the two month mark of my 9 month adventure, those homebrews being made there
started tasting good.  Now I brewed my first beer as a freshmen in college
in 1961.  I figured that I had the experience to blow everyone's socks off
with my beer.  All I needed to do was get my hands on the right ingredients.
You could buy "Near Beer" in the grocery stores in Saudi.  This was a Malty
beverage and I think if you closed your eyes when you swallowed you could
taste the hops.  Now if you get 2 cases of near beer, some boxes of
cornflakes, red star yeast and some sugar, you had everything you needed to
make "World Class Beer".  I soon became the Brewmaster of Jeddah, Saudi
Arabia.
I am sure that I have never made a worse tasting or a better tasting beer in
my life.....Timing is everything.

Jim Bermingham
Millsap,TX


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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 18:59:47 -0400
From: ronrweaver at cs.com
Subject: Fermentation finished warm!

Hi, guys.  I just started brewing back in January, and I have a question
for those with more experience than myself.  With the onset of warmer
weather here in the Chicago area, I found my last batch of "Scotch Ale"
finishing up at around 80 degrees farenheit.   I started the fermentation
in the basement where it was nice and cool, but when it looked like things
were almost finished I moved the carboy to the kitchen for bottling (this
was after 10 days in the basement).  The room temperature in the kitchen
caused the fermentation to take off again.   I've done this before, but it
usually only takes a couple of days for it to stop.  This time it's gone on  
for 4 days.  It appears to be finished now, but I'm wondering about the
possible effects on the taste of my beer?


I think I should have left the carboy in the basement a little longer.  
Will the fermentation always re-start after I move it into the warmer room?  
I try to move it a day or two before bottling, so the sediment will settle
out after the move.   If the fermentation is really finished, it shouldn't
re-start, should it?  Should I be bottling in the basement?


Thanks in advance for any and all input.

Ron Weaver
Buffalo Grove, IL
210.5, 268.8 (possibly)




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