HOMEBREW Digest #3975 Fri 28 June 2002

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  Hop Flowers ("Graham L Sanders")
  taste...watery... (Darrell_Leavitt/SUNY)
  RE : Warm Fermentation ("Steven Parfitt")
  Re: Watery Beer ("Doug Hurst")
  Re: Watery Beer (Jeff Renner)
  Watery beer, Porous kegs, house bug, hot kitchen, Victoria, B.C. ("Dave Burley")
  re: Fermentation finished warm! (Rama Roberts)
  Poor efficiency and strange taste (Yves.Belanger)
  Homebrewing in Germany- VHD (Calvin Perilloux)
  RE:  Watrery Beer ("Parker Dutro")
  Beer and food in Portland ("Parker Dutro")
  Re: march pump (Rob Dewhirst)
  Force Carnbonation and aftertaste. (Michael Christensen)
  Isomerized hop extract (Jeff Renner)
  RE: MB RIMS chamber (Kent Fletcher)
  Ontario Brewers (Alan McKay)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:08:05 +1000 From: "Graham L Sanders" <craftbrewer at bigpond.com> Subject: Hop Flowers G'Day all Being a mage-media star of radio, newspaper and now TV certainly takes it out of an old fella like myself. You wouldn't think that just taking about beer would be soooooo demanding, but seem everyone wants a bit of the "Guru of the North" at the moment. And this is even more so as I am oeganising the Qld State Brew Comp here in North Queensland. Local micro has offerred a great prize for the overall winner, that is they will brew up a commercial batch of the winning beer, put your name on it, and give you free 100 litres of beer. Now to any Aussie, the first part of the prize is - So What!!!!!. But 100 litres of free grog, well the stampede has already started. I am just managing with the workload, and I thank my lucky star that Phil has disappeared for the moment. Seems he has finally realised that he needs to improve his brewing skills. I checked the enrollments at the Guru International 'Beer Making and Crab Tieing School of Excellence and see a Phill Ansett has enrolled from Burradoo. Thats ok Phil, I wont tell them who it really is. But I do have time to answer this >From: "santhosh kumar" <ptsanthosh at rediffmail.com> >Subject: HOP FLOWERS JUST IN TWO MONTHS > >Hi, >i am from India.I'd planted two hop rhizomes(cascade, >nugget)last April 11.Cascade is very healthy. >Surprisngly I saw there are lot of flowers(around 50) >on cascade a week ago.I am so anxious about the >untimley flowering phenomena.Is it common thing? Now I will paste my answer from the craftbrewers digest in. I guess being quite experienced (thats hop growing in the tropica and not the other people), I should tell what I know. Santhosh, we here in the Southern Hemisphere are always keen to help out brewing cousins in India. I live at Lat 19, which is well in the tropics, and am probably the most experienced to talk about hop growing in the tropics. I am of course assuming you are of similar latitude to me as well. I am into my second season of hop growing here, growing Pride of Ringwood, and know have a healthy Hallateau growing as i type right in the middle of winter. Hops grow fine in the tropics, but you will find they grow in spurts. So you will get all the bines starting at the beginning of the Monsoon, they will grow quickly, flower and die. All this in about three months. Then it will do it all again. I get about two to three growth cycles in "The Wet" (thats what we call the Monsoon over here). And the hops will grow again during winter The down side is the hops flowers will be a lot smaller and the harvest is not large. But we get a number of harvest a year. The hops you do get are fine, they have the flavours and bitterness you expect. My advice is when the flowers are mature, harvest them and cut the bine back to ground level. gauging mature hops in the tropic is trickier than down south, but a good guide is when they open right up and you can see all the yellow pollen, thats about the right time. To give people an idea how well they grow, here we are middle of winter I have yet another growth spurt. Not as vigerous as during the wet, but they are about a foot high and growing an inch a week. I must say, all this talk about them being sensitive to this and that, I thought I would have heaps of trouble. Turns out the buggers are a true weed, almost as good as the real stuff in growth. Shout Graham Sanders Oh, the Guru International had to close recently for a short time. Seems a large saltie sunbaked on the Train line near the place. True to Qld rail, a train did come along and yes it derailed the train. One tough and large croc Funny thing is thou, even thou it was had move a train off its track, It was still in one piece, infact looked like it was wasn't even touched. Mind you a couple of thousand flys gave it away it was not well. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 08:02:13 -0400 From: Darrell_Leavitt/SUNY%SUNY at esc.edu Subject: taste...watery... Nick; you don't give enough info...ie quantities that you used and such,...but I think that in general you can use more bulk malt extract (liquid or powder) to enhance the flavor...and you can purchase some specialty grains....steep them in the brewpot (in a grain bag)...as you heat your water...take it up to 170 F....then take the bag out...don't squeeze it but just let it steep...like a tea bag.... this should give you more flavor... also, you can add a pound of "malto-dextrin" which will add body (mouthfeel) to the brew.... ...Darrell Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 08:50:24 -0400 From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com> Subject: RE : Warm Fermentation Hey Ron welcome to the real world. ....snip... >With the onset of warmer weather here in the Chicago area, I found my >last >batch of "Scotch Ale" finishing up at around 80 degrees >farenheit. I >started the fermentation in the basement where it was >nice and cool, but >when it looked like things were almost finished I >moved the carboy to the >kitchen for bottling (this was after 10 days >in the basement). The room >temperature in the kitchen caused the >fermentation to take off again. I've >done this before, but it >usually only takes a couple of days for it to stop. This time it's >gone >on for 4 days. It appears to be finished now, but I'm wondering >about the >possible effects on the taste of my beer? ....... You might pick up some estery qualities (fruity/flowery) to the beer if it fermented this high, not to style, but not necessarily that bad. Other possibilities are Phenols (medicinal/bandaid) which are much less desirable and bad. You will just have to wait and try it after it conditions to find out. Or taste a sample while bottling. >I think I should have left the carboy in the basement a little longer. ..... Probably a good idea. what was the temperature in the basement? what was the yeast? Liquid, dry, Smack Pack? Did you make a starter? How did you areiate/oxigenate the wort before pitching? I would recommend racking to a secondary (Glass carboy or SS conry) and let it set for an additional one to two weeks in the basement unless it is too cool (which is yeast dependent). >Will the fermentation always re-start after I move it into the warmer >room? .... Only if fermentation has slowed, but not completed yet. >I try to move it a day or two before bottling, so the sediment will >settle >out after the move. .... Good plan. >If the fermentation is really finished, it shouldn't re-start, should >it? .... True, but you need to realize that in the later phase of fermentation it may appear finished, but in reality it is proceeding at a much slower pace. >Should I be bottling in the basement? ... Only if it is convienent. .... >Thanks in advance for any and all input. de nada. Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery http://thegimp.8k.com Johnson City, TN 5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian "Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von Bismarck Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 08:41:54 -0500 From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com> Subject: Re: Watery Beer Nicholas, I'm sure you're going to get a lot of replies to your post. Here's my recomendation: skip the brewing sugar and instead use two cans of malt extract instead of one. You'll get a much more flavorful beer. The brewing sugar is completely fermented by the yeast and leaves little to no flavor in the final beer. Also, and you probably already know this, make sure to add some hops even if the extract says it's hopped. If the extract *isn't* hopped, add some at the beginning and end of the boil for bitterness and aroma. If the extract *is* hopped, then add hops at the end of the boil for aroma. The layer of sediment at the bottom of your fermenting tub is normal. It's yeast and trub (precipitated proteins). When you're ready to bottle the beer just siphon it off of the sediment leaving the sediment behind. Don't worry, though, if some of it gets into your bottles. Hope this helps, Doug Hurst Chicago IL Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:03:45 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Watery Beer "Nicholas McLaren" <Nicholas.McLaren at aus.dupont.com> writes, evidently from Australia: >I have found that my first two >brews have come out a little bit watery. >I used Coopers Lager with Coopers/CSR brewing sugar. Nick (may I call you that?), you've brewed what the majority of homebrewed beers in Oz are - K&K, or kit and kilo. Your compatriots at http://www.craftbrewer.org/ have a list like HBD that may help you more than ours (but please don't think you aren't most welcome here - you are). These guys (and gals) are dedicated to improving home brewed (or, as they prefer, craft brewed) beer in Australia. There are also a lot of tips for brewers at that web site. First step is, lose the sugar. It ferments out 100% and leaves nothing but alcohol. This may be fine for the brewer who just wants beer as cheap as possible, but I sense you are not of this persuasion. Replace it with dry malt extract. If your local homebrew shop can't help you, find one that can. It helps to boil the wort. You might also want to add some additional hops if you like more bitter beer. >I find that there is a large layer of sediment at the bottom >of the fermenting tub. That is yeast. I know you pitched (added) only a bit of yeast, but it reproduces in the wort, then settles out at the end of fermentation. Check out that Oz Craftbrewers group. There may be some other brewers near you who can help you find good supplies and there may be a club going where you can taste other brewers' beers and get good ideas. And welcome to a great hobby and to HBD. Long live international cooperation. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:30:35 -0400 From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net> Subject: Watery beer, Porous kegs, house bug, hot kitchen, Victoria, B.C. Brewsters: Nicolas McClaren complains of watery beer on his first two kits. First, welcome to homebrewing, Nicolas. Second, we need more details on the kits, but if you added sugar as many kits tell you to do, this may well be the problem. Substitute malt extract for the sugar to the same beginning specific gravity and you will have a substantially improved beer. Laaglander malt extracts have a higher dextrin count than most malt extracts and this may help if you use them. Spray dried malt substitutions are the easiest, as you can just substitute pound for pound and be close enough, but you can add liquid malt extract to get to the desired specific gravity. Be sure to stir it very well as malt extract can partition and give you false SG readings. Good Luck!. - ------------------------ I guess we are having a failure to communicate or something. Brian Lundeen thinks Kevin Crouch is talking about porous SS kegs and I thought Brian was talking about oak kegs ( casks, barrels, firkins , etc.) and wine and beer. I stand by my comments, but wonder if at least one of us isn't missing the point of the conversation. I'll wait until I understand the position of each correspondent before commmenting further. - ---------------------- Rick Theiner asks if he does transfers outside his brew house and the problem goes away does that prove he has a house bug. I doubt it without lots of experiments and cross experiments, but it is an indication. I think your goal should be to solve the problem and that means attacking every avenue that you suspect. If the problem is a moldy filthy air cleaner/air conditioner with puddles of water standing around then you should clean it up anyway, it is bad for your health. However, and despite John Schnupp's ( hi John) excellent example, it has been my experience that too often we read about and blame the air ( typically a very low microbe count) when the problem is physical contact with contaminated surfaces or liquids. - -------------------- Ron Weaver moved his brew to the hot kitchen and thinks the fermentation re-started. It may have just sped up the secondary fermentation or just as likely the CO2 saturated at the cool cellar temperatures came to equilibrium at the higher temperature and lower CO2 concentration by bubbling out. - --------------------- SWMBO and I are going to the Northwest US ( Seattle) as part of this investigation into how to cure me and as part of that we are taking a side trip to Victoria, B.C. I'm sure she must have heard about the wonderful shopping there or something. I no longer trust her "vacations" since we went camping and white water ( or was it white knuckle) rafting in PA once so she could go shopping in factory outlet stores nearby! Talk about dual agendae. She promises me there are some really excellent pubs in Victoria serving British Real Ale from kegs flown in. How does she know this ? I don't know, as she only likes Guinness and an occasional Bitter if I don't call it that. But if anyone has any suggestions on where to go to find these elusive beauties, I, like Ross Perot, am all ears. Please use my private e-mail for any suggestions - thanks! Dave_Burley at charter.net. ( That address is Dave ( underscore character) Burley at charter.net) Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Anderson, SC Home of Lake Hartwell and freshwater Stripers, a Bassmaster Tournament lake Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 08:01:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com> Subject: re: Fermentation finished warm! Ron wrote: I think I should have left the carboy in the basement a little longer. Will the fermentation always re-start after I move it into the warmer room? I try to move it a day or two before bottling, so the sediment will settle out after the move. If the fermentation is really finished, it shouldn't re-start, should it? Should I be bottling in the basement? Ron- I would guess that the fermentation is kicking up again not so much because of the temperature change than the "rousing" of the yeast, which is basically stirring it back up from the bottom of the carboy when you agitate it during the move upstairs. Once they're in suspension again, fermentation will accelerate. Next time, try giving your fermentation vessel a careful swirling to kick up the yeast once or twice before moving it to the kitchen. Rama Roberts Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:59:13 -0400 From: Yves.Belanger at belairdirect.com Subject: Poor efficiency and strange taste Hi everyone, after having done several successfull batches of extract-based beer, I started all-grain. My problem is poor efficiency (around 45%) and a weird taste that develops during fermentation and goes away in the bottle after 3 months. I mash in a kettle with a copper manufold ... there's nothing special about my procedure ... Could it be my water (city water through a charcoal filter) that's causing me these problems ??? Thanks Yves Belanger Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:01:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com> Subject: Homebrewing in Germany- VHD Andrew Nix, moving to Germany (perhaps) asks about homebrewing and clubs in Germany. Here's the info for whoever else on HBD might also be in such a dire situation, faced with maybe leaving his homebrew behind and finding no more APA in the local bars, having to settle for that barley swill they serve over there. (Oh, my heart bleeeeeds.....) I'll toot my horn here a bit. I was one of the founding members of the Vereinigung der Haus- und Hobbybrauers in Deutchsland, where meeting on a late winter's day in Kulmbach in 1995 or so, five of us threw in 100 DM each and started an "umbrella" group for homebrewing in Germany, in a similar fashion (but far smaller) to the AHA in the United States. Check them out: http://www.hausgebraut.de/ That site gives details on where various events and brew courses take place, as well as their annual "Brautage", or convention. Too bad you'll miss this year's, which is in October at Aschau am Inn, which would be good not just for beer but touring and scenery, too. Get your German up to date, too, so you can cope with things like the Brauanzeige and Biersteuererklaerung to send to the government when you brew. Brew too much without declaring and paying, so goes the letter of the law, and it's tax evasion. "Bei Steuerhinterziehung sind Freiheitsstrafen bis zu fuenf Jahren vorgesehen...", so up to five years, yikes! But minor infractions in your tax calculations are only punishable by up to approximately $50,000 fine. OK, those are the real rules, but I don't think they're ever so harshly enforced. The Verein can get you the info to do it properly, so it no big deal, really. You'll also find, via their newsletter "Flaschenpost", suppliers who will ship to you wherever you are in Germany (and beyond, I ugess, if you want to pay). Enjoy... Calvin Perilloux Middletown, Maryland, USA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:27:57 -0700 From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com> Subject: RE: Watrery Beer Nicholas asks how to improve on the flavor of his beer. He describes his beers taste thus far as watery. Nicholas, I, too, asked this same question on a different post site because my extract/specialty grain beers were not as "full flavored" as the beers I liked to drink. The answers I got were not what I expected, but very helpful and ultimately true. There are a few things to look at when trying to improve on beer and these things will always be the focal points of your brewing method. Yeast, grain, water, time, temperature and cleanliness. Since your beer is watery, (like mine were) you will need to start by addressing yeast, grain, time and temp. Yeast: are you pitching enough yeast? When I began using liquid yeast and the making starters my beer improved a great deal. Pitch enough yeast to do the job well, and make sure to aerate the hell out of your wort right before you pitch. Grain: If only using specialty grains, you are basically counting on them for the flavor characteristics of the final product. They should be cracked correctly, just prior to use, steeped at the right temp and long enough to extract almost all the flavor. In a 5 gallon batch, I typically use anywhere between 3 and 6 pound of specialty grain depending on the style. Those numbers could easily be more. Is your grain fresh? Shop from a good brew shop or order from a quality company. Temp: Usually 155 deg. This becomes more critical if you make the move to all-grain, but it determines how well the sugars are extracted from the grains. Time: Steep long enough, boil long enough and things should be swell. If you use the proper amount of DME, good fresh hops, grain, and pitch an adequate amount of healthy yeast into oxygen-rich wort, the quality of your beer will improve. Also, one more thing, full boils are the best. It may be an investment, but a good 8 to 12 gallon stainless steel boil pot/kettle will allow you to boil all 6 gallons, leaving 5 gallons at the end, and greatly improving the final product. Visit www.howtobrew.com <http://www.howtobrew.com/> for a great resource, and perhaps, if you don't already have it, get Papazian's The New Complete Joy Of Home brewing. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:28:53 -0700 From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com> Subject: Beer and food in Portland Rick, You have a few options. McMenamins is a good place for food and pretty good beer. Depending on which one you visit the guest taps change, but in any case there is one in Northwest on 21st ave. and Flanders (Called the Blue Moon) and if you happen there and need a cup of coffee, down three blocks on Irving is a place called Coffee Time, it's where I work and will be happy to get you a cup on the house. It's a bit of a jaunt from the max line. At PGE park, get off and walk across Burnside, up about three longer blocks to twenty-first ave, and down about five blocks and your there. There are other McMenamins, on NE Broadway by the Lloyd Center above Starbucks on 15th and Broadway. This one is also close to the max line, as there is a Lloyd center stop and its a few short blocks away. www.McMenamins.com will have all the addresses and may be helpful. Bridgeport Brewing is a bit farther, in the Pearl district (Northwest at about 5 and pettygrove) Lucky Lab brewing is at 915 SE Hawthorne Blvd. But will be a bit out of the way unless you are in that neighborhood. My BEST SUGGESTION would be the Rouge Brewery, I believe it's on 10th or 13th and Glisan, right after the freeway offramp coming from 26 east left on to 205 north. It should be quite easy to find, and most anyone in the area will be happy to direct you. www.rogue.com will help too. They have the best selection of beers in the Northwest neighborhood I believe, and Rogue just makes some fine ales. OK, feel free to e-mail me with any more specific questions if you need- ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com Have a fun time in P-town! Parker Dutro Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 15:54:34 -0500 From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com> Subject: Re: march pump At 12:16 AM 6/27/2002 -0400, you wrote: >If you're in a hurry, >check out the local Grainger dealer. You'll pay more, but it's fast if they >have them in stock. Also, we have a Little Giant pump dealer in town >you could buy from if Grainger doesn't have what you need. I've never been able to buy March pumps at Grainger. Just Little Giant and Teel (who have equivalents). Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 08:03:15 +1000 From: Michael Christensen <mikec at gbrmpa.gov.au> Subject: Force Carnbonation and aftertaste. I have been homebrewing for about 15 years and have recently changed to a keg system. I have been disappointed in the results mainly because my beer seems to have a bitter/sour aftertaste. I can only think that I have overcarbonated the beer and the taste I get is a soda water type taste. I don't seem to get the same taste in bottled conditioned beer which leaves me to believe that bottle conditioning somehow converts the source of this taste to something else. My question is - If I allow my keg beer to "flatten" slightly by relieving headspace pressure overnight will this remove the aftertaste. I tried this and it doesn't seem to work. The "bite"/aftertaste is so strong that it overpowers all other beer flavours. I realise that I may be looking at the wrong source for this taste but I have tried changing a number of things and it seems related to carbonation. By the way, I brew using1.7l cans of Coopers draught or recently Beermakers lager. I would appreciate any comments/tips as I have tried a number of things without success. I also realise that without a novel length description of my processes etc it is not easy to comment on the source of a characteristic simply described as "aftertaste". Thanks in advance. Michael Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 19:32:15 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net> Subject: Isomerized hop extract Brewers For the second or third time in the last couple of years, I underbittered an English style bitter, one of my favorite style. I really should get a new batch of Goldings - they are clearly not 5% as advertised. And I should pay more attention to my brewing notes. Anyway, I have over the years made a hop tea with some success, but the last time this happened, I tried to find some isomerized hop extract to doctor it up with no luck. This time, however, Jason at Adventures in Homebrewing in Dearborn, MI http://www.homebrewing.org/ came to the rescue. He didn't stock it, but he happened to have an unused little vial (1/2" x 1.75") of the stuff as a sample from a distributor. He dropped it in the mail and I tried it today. It worked great. The vial is to be used in five gallons. Jason didn't know how many IBUs it would add to five gallons (he's going to check), so what I did was use my nifty pocket beer engine to add a tiny amount to a pint. This is actually a 10 cc oral irrigator - a 10 cc plastic syringe with a built-in horn shaped, narrow curved "spout". It works great for degassing ales and adding a tight, creamy head. So I sucked up a very amount of this thick, yellow oily stuff (about one drop) and squirted it into a pint of the bitter, then sucked up some more ale and squirted it back into the pint. This didn't seem to be enough, so I added another drop or two. Voila! The proper bitterness. A very nice, clean bitterness that lingers on the palate after swallowing. I'm pleased. I think I'll pop open the keg (it's time to retrieve the hop bag with the dry hops anyway) and empty the vial into it. A bonus - I knew that isomerized hop alpha acids (whether we do it in the kettle or add them) aid foam stand. This is incredible. I have thick clumps of foam in the bottom of my pint glass after it's drained. I know that the use of this product runs contrary to the ideals many of us have, but I think it's a great tool to have in our repertoire. I hope that homebrew shops will stock it. I think I'll go pull myself another pint - doctored, of course. Yum. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:44:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: MB RIMS chamber In response to Drew's query about Moving Brew's RIMS chamber, Paul Kensler wrote: "Apparently heating elements are not standard pipe thread. So while I'm sure your buddy can come up with a decent home-made RIMS chamber, he'll have to come up with another solution for the fitting in question - unless he has access to a machine shop that can re-thread the fitting for him?" Actually, water heater elements are a "standard pipe thread," they are 1" NPS. NPS is shorthand for National Pipe Straight. Most plumbing fittings are threaded NPT, National Pipe Taper. For the low pressure application of a RIMS chamber, you can use a 1" NPT female fitting mated to the NPS element using appropriate sealant with no problems. I have, and I've seen many others on the web with similar construction. Kent Fletcher brewing in SoCal Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:46:48 -0400 From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net> Subject: Ontario Brewers Spencer, Do a google search on "Ontario Ale Trail" and you will pull up quite a bit. You will be in the neighbourhood of one end of the trail so a 30 mile / 50 km radius should get you pretty far. Don't worry about it being Sunday since most stores bars and pubs are open 7 days a week up here. John Scime recommends Wellington and I can only strongly second that! Sleeman is a bit "main stream" for most beer geeks though I myself like it a lot (then again, Koelsch is my beer of choice - lawnmower all the way!). The Arrow pubs are also a great recommendation - we have the Arrow and the Loon here in Ottawa and they always have a tremendous selection. Other brands to look for at the LCBO : Steam Whistle, Camerons (though I find they have some quality problems and you get skunked beer sometimes), Creemore (don't let the screw top scare you off), Niagara - including Niagara Ice Bock if you are lucky - and they make a great apple beer. Brick Brewing in Waterloo has a lot of great beers, including their Andechs Helles which is brewed locally under strict control by the monks of the Andechs Monastery outside Munich (www.andechs.de). Unfortunately I just (finally!) took my empties back the other day or else I could rhyme off some more. What to avoid? Anything by Molson or Labatt. Read the label as most will say. Though I'm not sure if Alexander Keith's (so-called) India Pale Ale says Labatt on the label. Though I personally like it simply because it is the beer I was weaned on back when it was only available out East, and it's a bit nostalgic for me, it is far from a Pale Ale, let alone an India Pale Ale. cheers, -Alan - -- http://www.bodensatz.com/ The Beer Site Return to table of contents
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