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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE: Reusing yeast ("Gary Smith")
  The Sound of Beer (Jim Adwell)
  BrewingTechniques subscription make-good? (Matt Comstock)
  Prague Powder and sausage supplies ("Dave Burley")
  Quit the AHA (mohrstrom)
  Chicago Homebrew Clubs (Aaron Robert Lyon)
  Marc Sedam's Number 4 (The Bitcher) ("Jim")
  Re: Mark Orhstrom comments (Sean McDonald)
  PLEASE, refund Sean's money.... ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  Sean's Rantings ("DRTEELE")
  data points and sound influences ("Dr. Pivo")
  Re:Hop plant question (Dave Wills)
  hopmadness (Dave Wills)
  how high are your nipples? (Alan McKay)
  And whats with that burnt-sugar taste? (Kevin Crouch)
  Competition Announcement: MI State Fair (grayling)
  Hot tap water (was re: cooling wort with dry ice) ("Jeff Pitblado")
  Amount of CO2 produced by fermentation (Demonick)


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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 01:15:46 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com>
Subject: RE: Reusing yeast

> Subject: RE: Reusing yeast
> 
> John Maylone wrote:
> 
> "Could someone give the name of a good book on saving, preserving and
> reusing yeast?"

Although not exactly the same... I'd suggest "The 
Mushroom Growers Cultivator" By Paul Stametes of 
Medford, OR as a good resource.

I used to grow Mushrooms (Yes... all kinds) and this 
book goes into an incredible depth as to the culturing of 
mushroom spores and Mushroom cloning, all of which 
require a sterile environment and procedures. In the 
book, construction of a personal innoculation hood to 
carry out the procedures in a sterile is explained. In 
addition, the rationale for te steps taken are explained 
fully.

I realize it's not exactly the same but I knew the proper 
aseptic technique when I got the book and found it to be 
flawless.

Not sure if it's still in print but I would be amazed if it's 
not, it's quite an opus (Heh, mine was signed by him & 
was something like copy #74).

Hmmm.. Glow in the Dark Psilocibe Mushroom Beer.

Possible, possible...

Ahem,

Gary

Gary Smith

http://musician.dyndns.org

A mother takes twenty years to make a man of her boy, 
and another woman makes a fool of him in twenty 
minutes.

 - Robert Frost -




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 05:16:57 -0400
From: Jim Adwell <jim at jimala.com>
Subject: The Sound of Beer

Phil ponders beer noise and rotational effects:

"It's early days but I suspect that nasty Coriolis effect is rearing its ugly
  head again. Whatever the case, the last thing a brewer wants to hear is
  "phhhhht" or "whorrrrrrst" coming from his kegs.
  I wonder what it sounds like on the north and south pole."

Well, Phil, wonder no more.  I can shed some light on this subject for you;
I have researched this subject extensively with all sorts of beer
containers, and have come to the following conclusion, to wit:

Since the Coriolis force is zero at either pole, the dregs, not knowing
which way to spin, leave the keg in a downwards manner, thus making a
"glug-glug-glug" sound (or, in the case of the southern pole,
"gulg-gulg-gulg", which is much the same sound, by the way, that an
Australian homebrewer makes upon discovering that his last keg of Polar
Pale Ale is almost empty, if you know what I mean).

Since I am the recognized expert in brewing sonics (in fact, the only
expert in this field), what I say goes, and there can be no other
discussion or any dissenting views on the matter.  Case closed, move along,
please.

Unless I'm wrong, in which case, never mind.


Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://brewery.jimala.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 05:17:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matt Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: BrewingTechniques subscription make-good?

Howdy folks,

This popped in my inbox the other day.  Anyone
else had correspondence?

Matt in Cincinnati

- --- Consumer's Edge Network
<consumersedgenet at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 20:29:31 -0700
> To: mccomstock at yahoo.com
> From: Consumer's Edge Network
> <consumersedgenet at earthlink.net>
> Subject: BrewingTechniques subscription
> make-good
> 
> Dear former BT subscriber:
> 
> This is a "form" email that is the first step
> in resolving our 
> commitment to fulfill the unused portion of
> your BrewingTechniques 
> subscription with back issues.  Following
> please find a report that 
> shows the information we have on file for you. 
> Please reply with a 
> simple confirmation, or with any changes.  We
> will endeavor to get 
> these issues out to you as soon as possible.
> 
> Your mailing address:
> 
- -- removed --
> 
> 
> Here's what we show you requested for
> BrewingTechniques back issues:
> 
> 4.4
> 4.6
> 6.2
> 
> Here's what we show you requested for Brewer's
> Market Guides:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your patience as we go through
> the process of resolving 
> this commitment from BrewingTechniques.  We
> await your reply.
> 
> Consumer's Edge Network,
> for BrewingTechniques
> consumersedgenetwork at netzero.net
> 




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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:35:42 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Prague Powder and sausage supplies

Brewsters:

Louis Bonham lists his favorite "jerky" recipe which includes the necessary
Prague Powder #1 and lists potential sources for it which may not be
available in your area.

Like Louis I have a fascination for sausages and beer and have done my share
of sausage making - including bangers, brats, kielbasa, Thuringer and real
frankfurters, etc.

Practice before deer season is a good idea if it's your first time. I would
start with Louis' recipe or at least use commercially ground meat the first
time.  Deer and other game is naturally low in fat and a good use for deer
meat is as sausage ( with added pork fat)  and jerky ( no added fat).
Hunters will be your friends and you will eat lots of venison sausage.

A good source ( but expensive, IMHO) of supplies for all types of sausages
and equipment and books is "The Sausage Maker" in Buffalo NY. They supply
both Prague Powder #1 ( used for "cooked" but not dry sausages) and Prague
Powder #2 ( used to produce dried sausages)  but have recently called them
by a different name which is explained in the catalog.

www.sausagemaker.com  for an idea of the company
sausmaker at aol.com   for a catalog
or 1-800-490-8525

Another source - less expensive - for meat grinders and sausage stuffers
equipment is Northern Tool.

www.northerntool.com

look under "outdoors" / "meat and grain grinders".

They also have a 170,000 BTU propane cooker on sale for $59.95 but add in
shipping charges..

No affiliation with either organization, but I have had good service from
both.

Remember to be sanitary and that meat is not acidic and can spoil quickly.
Also remember that salt is not a "cure" for meat, as most initiates might
believe.  Use Prague Powder #1 according to directions if you have to hold,
process, smoke or  "cook" the wet or semi-dry sausage mixture at room and
higher temperatures for any length of time. Bulk ground meat and stuffed
sausage casings are the nearly perfect low oxygen environment in which
Botulinus can propagate, so make sausage carefully but have lots of fun
doing it.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:22:49 -0400
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Quit the AHA

Sean McDonald should quit the AHA.

It is not for him.  There is nothing that he can learn, no value that he
will receive, he has nothing to offer but his 38 bucks.

In private correspondence, I came to realize that nothing would ever please
him - he is unrealistic in his expectations.  He is certain of his view
(after all, after seven months of brewing _he_ is the definition of  the
"average brewer".)

In my business career, I have, from time to time, had to "fire" a customer.
Some people are not worth dealing with.  (In business, I have the added
pleasure of scraping off these whiners onto a competitor - let them waste
_their_ time ...)  We all know those people - they suck the air from the
room as they enter, when trapped in conversation with them, you consider
diving through the window to escape.  God help you if you are ever in a
relationship with one of them (gimme, gimme, gimme...)

Sean - quit the AHA.  Chalk it up as (yet another) bad life experience.  Oh
 - don't join the local club.  They won't please you either.


Mark in Kalamazoo



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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:45:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Aaron Robert Lyon <lyona at umich.edu>
Subject: Chicago Homebrew Clubs

Hey, all.  I'm moving to Chicago shortly (August 1st), and I'm wondering
who out there can tell me about the clubs I'll find when I unpack.  I've
already joined the Chicago Beer Society and look forward to those
meetings very much, but I've heard they don't have as much of a homebrew
focus.  I'm going to be living in the Lincoln Park area and would love to
meet with a club I can take public transportation to (though I will have a
car).  I know a little about BOSS, but don't know where they actually like
to meet.  Urban Knaves of Grain are the same story, and what's this I hear
about HOPS?  Some specific information would be appreciated in either
public or private e-mail.  Thanks.

 -A

____________________________________________________________________________
Aaron Lyon  -  homebrewer / research assist / hasher
*[4.13, 118] Apparent Rennerian*

"Give me a woman who truly loves beer, and I will conquer the world."
	-Kaiser Wilhelm II (1859-1941)


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:47:17 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Jim" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Marc Sedam's Number 4 (The Bitcher)

I request..NO, I DEMAND! that the AHA transfer at least one of the brewpubs
in Bolder to Millsap so that I can have a choice other than Bubba's "Millsap
Small Engine and Chainsaw Repair" for my one night a month out on the town. 
If Paul wasn't so lazy he would have already done this for me. I am a member
in full standing of the AHA and deserve nothing less of the organization.
For those who met me at the recent event in Dallas (That I'm know was
screwed up by Charlie, Paul, Gary and Erwin somehow. I enjoyed myself too
much to notice but I'm sure if I spent enough time I could come up with
something that went wrong).  Anyway, for those that met me know that after
41 years of off and on brewing I, like Sean, have outgrown Zymurgy.  Just
last week I was out on the back porch in the hot tub enjoying a beer and
reading the recent copy of Zymurgy.  Now my nearest neighbor lives more than
a mile away and I am able to enjoy the hot tube in my all in all.  For the
first time in 10 years of enjoying myself this way, guess what happen? 
Suddenly, around the corner of the house appears my neighbor and his wife. 
Let me tell you I have outgrown the Zymurgy so much that if I had 2 copies
opened at the centerfold it wouldn't have covered me.  My poor wife is now
scared to go back into the water...Bummer!
Sean, are you telling me that I should drop my membership in the AHA if Paul
doesn't get a brewpub in every members town, and then make that brewpub
honor the discount program?  YOU GO BOY!!!  I'm with you.  But can I keep my
card?  The card seems to impress all the locals.  They think I'm some big
shot in the beer business when I flash the thing.  I get a lot of free beers
that way.  Hey, that's better than a discount,  I'm talking about FREE beer
here.  Sean, I'll join you but please, please let me keep the card.
Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX


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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:46:20 -0500
From: Sean McDonald <seanmc at irga.com>
Subject: Re: Mark Orhstrom comments

Mark,
It's not my fault you blindly and stupidly accept
what every rhetoric that is poured down your fat gullet. It's also not
my fault
that you failed to create a convincing argument, utilized failed logic
and
lack the knowledge to formulate a decent arguement.

You, my ignorant friend, are one of only a few that are continuing to
champion
the cause of the AHA. Everyone else has either given up the cause for
whatever
reason (which I was about to do), some sided with me or, at the very
least, others
admitted that I raised valid points.

In addition, I didn't resort to personal attacks when dealing with you,
in fact
I only addressed the issue - the AHA. Perhaps you should hop back onto
your short bus
and take some more of your "special" classes. You truely showed your
intelligence there.

Sean McDonald






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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:39:45 -0400
From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at msn.com>
Subject: PLEASE, refund Sean's money....

OK Sean.... You're diatribe is getting old. Go take a chill pill and wash it
down with some of your apparently great homebrew. "I've been brewing for 7-8
months, and I've
already outgrown Zymurgy." Damn you must be good.....




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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:21:12 -0400
From: "DRTEELE" <drteele at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Sean's Rantings

Sean,

I'm sorry, but I can't stand reading your posts. Yours are the most selfish,
self-centered and childish postings I have ever seen on the HBD. It's all
what have YOU (AHA) done for Me, when, how and why not? You refuse to see
the benefits of the AHA as benefits just because you don't make use of them.
Well, I hate to break it to you, but just because you choose not to use them
doesn't mean they are not benefits for the rest of the AHA membership. You
cry because you don't see your membership dues helping you make better beer.
Well, if you READ Zymurgy rather that clammoring about your dues being an
over-priced subscription, you might learn how to make better beer. AND if
you submitted your beers to competitions, you would get standardized reviews
(thanks to BJCP) of your beer that you could use to improve your brewing
practices. You complain that the pub discount is worthless because you can't
use it. From what I've heard, this program is in its infancy. Can't you show
even a little patience? And as for the consumer age and getting bang for
your buck, remember this. You are not a customer of the AHA, you are a
member. AHA is not a retail store, it is an association. Your dues are not
an investment, they are DUES (Websters - a fee or charge for membership).
They are instituting programs which help and benefit their membership
according to what their members tell them. In all your posting, all I have
seen are complaints, not constructive criticism. You refuse to step up to
help improve the organization, i.e. promoting the pub discount program or
even making suggestiongs for new programs which might benefit you. You
expect your every homebrew to be handed to you on a silver platter for your
$38.

You know, you don't sound like a member. You sound more like a disgruntled
consumer. If I were the AHA, I would refund your membership and be done with
you. In my mind the $38 'benefit' you bring to the association isn't worth
the wailing everyone has to listen to coming from you



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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:22:42 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: data points and sound influences

As always, Phil Yates has opened up another germaine and extremely under
analysed aspect of beer making.

He suspects the coriolis effect  creating the discrepancy.....

> to say his kegs are making that terrible "phhhhht"
> sound.
>
> Interestingly though, here in the Southern hemisphere a keg emptying itself
> actually makes a "whorrrrrrst"  sound
>

This is not the coriolis effect.

This is either the "greed" effect, or the "sloppy drunk/slow reflexes"
effect.

The first sound the tap line emits upon the keg emptying is a hissing
"phhhhht" sound. The experienced have learned to immediately close the
tap, or one will suffer the "whorrrrrrst" sound which comes at the end.

This is produced as the influx of CO2 exceeds the beer content in the
tap line, and the violence of this flow invariably russles up the yeast
cake on the bottom a natural cellar lagered keg, making the recieving
glass look like a chocolate milkshake.


> sound rather than a "phrrrrrt".
>
This sound is actually the one you emit the next day if you are greedy
enough to drink this yeast laden flagon.

Dr. Pivo

And Ray Daniels says "they" are covering all manner of exciting new
topics.




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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:38:51 -0700
From: Dave Wills <dave at freshops.com>
Subject: Re:Hop plant question

Regarding the Willamette hop you have in a pot. Plant it outside 
ASAP. Even though the hop will not do much this year it will still 
establish some roots. More importantly hops need to go through the 
winter dormant, keeping it inside would prevent the dormancy.

Dave Wills
Philomath, Oregon


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:39:00 -0700
From: Dave Wills <dave at freshops.com>
Subject: hopmadness


In celebration of the hop, you are hereby cordially invited to HOPMADNESS!!
AUGUST 31-SEPTEMBER 1, 2002 2pm on, with harvest tours at 3pm, 6pm, & midnight
Willamette Mission State Park, Filbert Grove
8 miles north of Salem, Oregon

      With 2 hop farms within a mile of the celebration and hop 
harvest in full swing, Freshops has arranged to tour the hop yards, 
picking, drying and baling facilities at Weather's Hop Farm. The 
harvest is a very busy time with hops being picked 22 hours a day 
during the peak of ripeness.  If you have never experienced a 
commercial hop harvest, it is hop lovers heaven.  Homebrewers are 
encouraged to bring their portable brew kettles, malt and yeast and 
plan to brew harvest ales with fresh picked hops.  Bring your 
hoppiest homebrews to share with fellow hop enthusiast. The Oregon 
Brew Crew will hopefully be bringing some of the remains of the Great 
Hop Experiment where individual beers were brewed with single hop 
varieties using the same wort and yeast.  If you can do it with a 
hop, we plan on doing it. Hop picking contests, hop wreath making, 
hop photos, hop king and queen pageant, BBQ, potluck, BYOHomebrew, 
camp, hike, bike, fish, horseshoes, horse rentals, music, nations 
largest Black Cottonwood tree.  $3.00 per car, includes tent camping 
if you desire.  I-5 exit 263, west on Brooklane Rd. past hop yards 
then right on Wheatland Rd about 2 miles to the park and find the 
Filbert Grove.  For further info about the park visit- 
www.oregonstateparks.org/park_139.php or call Freshops- (541) 929-2736
- -- 
Dave Wills
Freshops
purveyor of fine hops



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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:57:09 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: how high are your nipples?

Folks,

I have a 45 litre / 11 US gallon SS pot that I want to get
a coupling (OK, not a nipple but the subject line was better
that way ;-)) welded into.  But I'm not sure how high off the
bottom of the pot to put it.

Is there a rule of thumb?

THis is for fitting a ball-valve on the outside, and I also
want to fit some kind of manifold to the inside.

thanks,
 -Alan

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site 


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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:26:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Crouch <kcrouching at yahoo.com>
Subject: And whats with that burnt-sugar taste?

Can anyone out there add any insight to the phenomenon
of the "smoothing" out of that burnt sugar taste in
beers that use high-melanoidin malts such as munich? 
I've become acutely aware of this flavor in young
beers, lagers especially, that I make with these
malts, and I can't think of any other way to describe
it, except that is similar to what coffee smells like
when its roasting.  When I brew a lager, for example, 
it is usually an amber or bock style with at least 25%
Munich malt, usually DeWolf Cosyns Belgian Munich Malt
(6L).  I rarely use crystal malt anymore, and I used
to attribute this flavor to crystal until I purged it
from my recipes in certain beer styles. Now, with only
varying combinations of pilsener malts and dark malts
this burnt flavor persists.  I percieve an intensity
of this flavor and aroma during the early stages of
maturation in the lagering vessel. Depending on the
amount of Munich malt used,  this flavor may take
months to evolve completely into that nectar-like malt
flavor and aroma. This, at least, is what I
**percieve** to be happening.

For example,  I brewed a Helles Bock in March using
30% Munich.  I started the lagering process in May
with the burnt taste at an overwhelming level. Now,
over two months later,  this flavor is just barely
discernable amid a heartwarming malt buffet.  

What is going on here chemically?  I've never found a
good explanation of this transformation, though I must
admit I've not read Ray Daniels' Brewing Lager Beer.
Historically speaking, are these flavor compounds, and
the time required to mature them part of the impetus
for substituing a smaller portion of crystal malt for
the larger percentage of dark malts more commonly used
in pre-pale malt brewing days?  Obviously some brewers
in certain countries have not compromised this
formula.

For clarity sake, I do not decoct, and I rarely step
mash because my water is soft and the Belgian grains
are highly modified (aaaah brewtopia). I mash in a
large Coleman Marine cooler which means my grist does
not ever touch a surface heated by a direct flame.

Thanks in advance for any wisdom, wild-guesses,
confucian sayings, mantras, or organic chemistry
mechanisms.   

Getting ready for Oktoberfest in Vancouver, WA



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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:50:08 -0400
From: grayling at provide.net
Subject: Competition Announcement: MI State Fair

Hello All - 

The time is upon us again for the MI State Fair Homebrew
 Competition. All of the details can be found at
 http://hbd.org/michigan. 

The important dates are as follows: 

Registration Begins: July 15, 2002 
Registration Ends: July 29, 2002 

First round judging the weekend of August 3rd at a
 Detroit/Ann Arbor location to be announced. 

Best of Show judging will be at the State Fairgrounds on
 Saturday August 24th at 4:30. 

Judges and stewards are needed for all events. Please
 contact me for more information. 

Cheers! 

Jim Suchy 
Comp. Director 


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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:43:07 -0700
From: "Jeff Pitblado" <jplists at cox.net>
Subject: Hot tap water (was re: cooling wort with dry ice)

> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 09:15:56 -0700 From: mike.sharp at lante.com
> Subject: re: cooling wort with dry ice. 
>
> A better method of chilling, if your tap water is too warm, would be
> to use your CF chiller, or an immersion chiller to get the temperature
> down to, say, 100F, then cut in a second immersion chiller sitting in
> your ice-water filled sink to pre-chill the cooling water, and bring
> the wort temp down the rest of the way.  If you don't have a second
> immersion chiller (I have both a CF and and immersion, which is handy
> at times), but you do have a pump, you can just fill a tub with ice
> water, and when the tap water becomes ineffective, pump water from the
> tub through the chiller. 

Living in Phoenix, hot tap water is a constant problem (especially in the 
summer).  What I & many of the people in the local club do is run the 
wort through an immersion chiller set in a bucket of ice water.  It's easy 
to add more ice as the water warms up.  You do have to be careful with 
cleaning & sanitizing the chiller.  

Jeff  



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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:44:59 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Amount of CO2 produced by fermentation

I've been asked how much CO2 is generated in a "typical" fermentation?  
I tried to figure it out, and would like a critique of my calculations.
My constants come from the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics.

Let's assume a 20 liter batch of 12P wort (12% w/w).
Let's assume it is all glucose and the yeast is 100% attenuative (we can
adjust for these factors later).

We can calculate the total amount of CO2 ideally produced in a fermentation
from the quantity of sugar consumed by the yeast.  The metabolic chemistry
for glucose is, one glucose molecule produces 2 carbon dioxide molecules
and 2 ethanol molecules : C6H12O6 => 2(CO2) + 2(CH3CH2OH)

molecular weight : glucose 180.6, CO2 44.01, ethanol 46.07

A 20 liter 12% (12P) solution contains 2400 grams of glucose which is 13.29
moles of glucose.  If all of it is metabolized this would generate 26.58
moles of CO2.  That's 1170 grams.  Under standard temperature and pressure
1 cubic meter of air contains about 2.547 x 10**25 molecules.  20 liters is
1/50 (0.02) of a cubic meter or 5.094 x 10**23.  Avogadro's number is 6.022
x 10**23, so 20 liters of volume at STP would contain 5/6 (5.094/6.022) of
a mole of CO2 or 36.68 grams.  (Seems awfully high)  If the number is
right, the solution in question would ideally produce about 32 volumes of
CO2.

Another way to calculate this is to use the molecular volume of an ideal
gas constant 22.4 x 10**-3 cubic meters per mole.  This constant is listed
at a temperature of 0 C, corrected to room temperature (20C) yields
24.04 x 10**-3 cubic meters per mole.  Interesting number.  In decimal
notation it is 0.02404 cubic meters per mole.  Remember that 0.02 cubic
meters is 20 liters.  0.02/0.02404 = 0.83 = 5/6 of a mole.  

Both methods agree. 

However, not all of the sugar is metabolized to CO2 and ethanol.  Some of
it is used in biosynthesis, some of it is limit dextrins that can not be
metabolized by the yeast.  If we assume that 1/2 of the sugar is available
for metabolism then we generate about 16 volumes of CO2.

Still seems awfully high to me.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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---