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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Sean McDonald's comments ("Steve Ford")
  Gump Thanks a Whiner ("Rob Moline")
  Brewing with Soft Wheat ("John Misrahi")
  Re: BrewingTechniques subscription make-good? ("Gary Smith")
  Re: how high are your nipples? ("Gary Smith")
  Point / Counterpoint on the AHA;  Agave (Paul Kensler)
  Give Sean his money back (pedwards)
  Data points and sound influences ("Jim")
  More on the AHA ("Beer Phantom")
  Sean & Mark's "discussion" ("Beer Guy")
  Locating a Nipple (mohrstrom)
  Re: And whats with that burnt-sugar taste? (Jeff Renner)
  Amahl Turczyn for president ("Peter Fantasia")
  AHA and BJCP (Tony Verhulst)
  BrewingTechniques subscriber make-goods ("Consumer's Edge Network")
  beer sounds & whining & nipples ("Joseph Marsh")
  Re:  Amount of CO2 produced by fermentation ("Haborak, Kevin")
  High FG in Strong Lager (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  I couldn't resist ("Brian Schar")
  burnt sugar and munich malt ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Pub Discount Program and the AHA (MOREY Dan)
  AHA Mead Day ("Gary Glass")
  Curacao Orange Liqueur ("FLJohnson at portbridge.com")
  astroglide/AHA ("dave sapsis")
  propane cooker (John Sarette)
  Re: Sean's Rantings (Bill Wible)
  Pub discount, Munich malt ("dave holt")
  Reusing yeast ("Alain Arsenault")


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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:01:31 -0500
From: "Steve Ford" <spare at kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Sean McDonald's comments

Sean writes
>We've already established that I can get home >brew supply discounts
through my regional club, >and I'm sure with little effort I could get pub
>discount through that same regional clubs as well >(for only $12 per year).
    I wonder who set up those brew supply discounts with your regional club.
Have some folks paid dues to the club but then actually gone out and worked
out some deals for the rest of the club members? Or, since this is the
"consumer age" have the deals just popped up out of thin air?
    You say that some pub discounts could probably worked out with little
effort on a regional club level, my question is -- Who is going to work out
that deal?  You pay a yearly membership fee to the regional homebrew club
(just as you do to the AHA) and you've already acknowledged that you expect
to sit back and let the benefits come to you with your AHA membership, so --
do you feel the same way about your regional club?  Thankfully we have a
good group of people in my club that's willing to do some work.  It doesn't
take a lot of time and, to my knowledge, no one has killed themselves
working to increase the benefits enjoyed by the entire group.
    I understand that the staff in Boulder hold paid positions but I refuse
to expect them to do all of the work.  Perhaps I'm a fool but I can list a
number of instances where I have volunteered my time to support a paid staff
(event a time for two for the AHA)  in order to accommodate the common good.
I certainly hope that we're not deep enough into the "consumer age" where
volunteer work is considered the exception.
    > I'm not going to spend $1,000's of dollars to travel to and attend AHA
conferences'
    I've attended three AHA conferences and have yet to spend $1,000's of
dollars on any one.  Since your posts indicate that you are much to lazy to
book your own travel arrangements, I would suggest that you find a new
travel agent.  Each conference has been well worth the money but, if you
don't enjoy interaction between fellow brewers, drinking great examples of
homebrewed or craft brewed beer or learning from the leaders in the industry
I can understand why you wouldn't want to attend.
    >Disregard the NHC, home brew competitions and the BJCP
    First of all, the BJCP is an independent organization.  Second, if you
strip away two main programs from any organization the perceived value would
be greatly diminished. (If you try to strip away a third program that isn't
really even a part of the organization, well, that's just silly).
    Finally, a group of Bier Meisters used our AHA cards at a local
participating pub the other night -- we actually saved a little bit of
money!!
Steve Ford
KC Bier Meisters




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:58:35 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Gump Thanks a Whiner

			Gump Thanks a Whiner
Sean, mate, Ta...
     Thanks for instituting the best membership drive the AHA has ever had!
Brilliant, mate!
Gump
"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
- ---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.373 / Virus Database: 208 - Release Date: 7/1/2002



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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:20:51 -0700
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: Brewing with Soft Wheat

Hi All,


The other day i found something in the bulk food store that set off my
'brewing radar'. It was labelled 'soft wheat' and just appears to be some
kind of unmalted wheat kernels (nibblets?). I tasted a few, they seem fine,
and yes, softer than malted wheat. (I've brewed before with malted and
flaked wheat, but never this stuff). So the question is, how should i go
about brewing with it? I have had lots of advice and have these suggestions

1) Cook it for 30 min (un milled), add to mash
2) mill, cook for 30 min, add to mash
3) don't cook. Just mill, then add to mash

Which is the right one?

thanks

 -John Misrahi-




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:41:19 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com>
Subject: Re: BrewingTechniques subscription make-good?

> 
> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 05:17:27 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Matt Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
> Subject: BrewingTechniques subscription make-good?
> 
> Howdy folks,
> 
> This popped in my inbox the other day.  Anyone
> else had correspondence?
> 
> Matt in Cincinnati
> 
> - --- Consumer's Edge Network
> <consumersedgenet at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 20:29:31 -0700
> > To: mccomstock at yahoo.com
> > From: Consumer's Edge Network
> > <consumersedgenet at earthlink.net>
> > Subject: BrewingTechniques subscription
> > make-good
> > 
> > Dear former BT subscriber:
> > 
> > This is a "form" email that is the first step
> > in resolving our 
> > commitment to fulfill the unused portion of
> > your BrewingTechniques 
> > subscription with back issues.  Following
> > please find a report that 
> > shows the information we have on file for you. 
> > Please reply with a 
> > simple confirmation, or with any changes.  We
> > will endeavor to get 
> > these issues out to you as soon as possible.
> > 
> > Your mailing address:
> 
> > Consumer's Edge Network,
> > for BrewingTechniques
> > consumersedgenetwork at netzero.net
> 

I put in that email into Google & got the below address. 
Looks like it's for BT!

I wish they'd come back again.

http://www.brewingtechniques.com/contact.html

Gary

Gary Smith

http://musician.dyndns.org


Most of us know how to say nothing--few of us know 
when.




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:41:19 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com>
Subject: Re: how high are your nipples?

On 17 Jul 2002 at 0:38, Request Address Only - No 
Articles wrote:

> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:57:09 -0400
> From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
> Subject: how high are your nipples?
> 
> Folks,
> 
> I have a 45 litre / 11 US gallon SS pot that I want to get
> a coupling (OK, not a nipple but the subject line was better
> that way ;-)) welded into.  But I'm not sure how high off the
> bottom of the pot to put it.
> 
> Is there a rule of thumb?
> 
> THis is for fitting a ball-valve on the outside, and I also
> want to fit some kind of manifold to the inside.
> 
> thanks,
>  -Alan
> 
> - -- 
> http://www.bodensatz.com/
> The Beer Site 

Alan,

Personally, I love properly placed nipples and for that 
matter properly placed nipples have led to many great 
couplings but that's another matter.

I'd called SABCO asking about the height they place 
their coupling (full, not half) for their siphon & they 
measured the placement and said that the center of the 
hole should be 1" above the weld. 

Their siphon is pricey but if you wanted to use it, that's 
the height placement. You'd have to measure the 
distance for your pot.

Gary



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 05:52:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: Point / Counterpoint on the AHA;  Agave

With all the witty banter flying around regarding the
"quit the AHA" thread, I'm dying for someone to come
back with "Jane, you ignorant slut". 

To keep this post reasonably on topic, has anyone
played around with those Agave nectars that St. Pat's
sells?  I just ordered some and am thinking about
experimenting with beers, meads, agave wines...


Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:02:05 est
From: pedwards at iquest.net
Subject: Give Sean his money back

I've been a member of the AHA since about 1988 or 1989.  
I've gotten a lot ofgood knowledge from zymurgy and
the books published by the AHA.  And I've learned
TONS from attending several of the conventions.  
I continue to garner knowledge.

 One can never know everything.

Yeah, the AHA had a couple of rough years, but that's in the
past.  With Paul at the helm in Boulder, with an elected BoA
and with Ray as editor-in-chiefof zymurgy, things continue 
to get better.

I hope Paul Gatza just sends Sean his $38 back.  That way
Sean can buy some cheese to go with his whine, or maybe start
his own nat'l organization (with a membership of one).

Been breweing 7 whole months now, have you Sean? Think you know
all there isto know?  Lemme tell you, you're still wet behind 
the ears, son.

 --pse


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:57:08 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Jim" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Data points and sound influences

Dr. Pivo wrote "The first sound the tap line emits upon the keg emptying is
a hissing
"phhhhht" sound. The experienced have learned to immediately close the
tap, or one will suffer the "whorrrrrrst" sound which comes at the end."

The sound that I get, at my house is "phhhhht OH CRAP! whorrrrrrst"

Jim Bermingham


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:30:15 -0500
From: "Beer Phantom" <beer_phantom at hotmail.com>
Subject: More on the AHA

I'll start by saying that I am not a member of the AHA.  This is mostly 
because I just haven't gotten around to it, but it's probably because at 
this point in my homebrewing hobby, I just didn't think there was a whole 
lot I could contribute to the AHA other than money.  And I think 
contributing more than dues is important.

What?  Did I say contribute?  Contribute to an organization that already 
took my money?  Yes.  In fact, isn't that what joining organizations such as 
this is all about?  Of course it is.  It's not a health spa, or a country 
club.  It's an affiliation with others united to advance a set of ideas or 
methods to benefit a community.  (Anybody a member of a political party?)

Now, let's take a look at these potential benefits for the homebrewing 
community.  More availability of ingredients, greater variety of 
ingredients, better quality of ingredients, better methods of brewing, 
standards by which to judge beer.....I can personally attest to every one of 
these.  Even though I am not an AHA member, I have received every one of 
these benefits since I have been a homebrewer, and I am sure everyone else 
has too (Sean?).  We all make up the community, so we all benefit.

Now, are all of these benefits solely attributed to the presence of the AHA, 
of course not!  Duh.  There are local clubs, the internet, a larger 
population from which to recruit potential newcomers to the hobby, etc.  
But, if you look closely, there is little doubt that the hobby would be 
nowhere near what it is today without the affiliation of brewers united to 
advance the hobby of homebrewing on both large and small scales.  These 
people did the work, contributed more than simply their money, and the 
entire community has benefitted.  Your local club is a perfect example.  You 
still have to pay dues, and you are expected to contribute in order for the 
club to grow and advance the hobby.  The AHA is your homebrew club on a 
national scale.  Of course you're expected to contribute more than your 
measly 38 bucks.

The fact is, it's extremely easy to take the state of the hobby for granted. 
  If it weren't for the pioneers, (I'll bet a lot of them are AHA present or 
past board members) we would still be brewing with cans of sub-standard 
malt, table sugar, and bread yeast.

After saying all of this, it will probably prompt me to finally join the 
AHA, at which time I will gladly put forth the extra effort to advance the 
hobby in addition to my 38 bucks.  My only regret will be that for every 
success that the AHA has in advancing the hobby of homebrewing, whiners and 
losers like Sean will benefit too.  Sean, you talk about "return on 
investment", well I got news for you, you're brewing with those "returns" 
right now, and so are all of us.

Thanking groups like the AHA and being bold in anonimity,

The Beer Phantom



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:35:14 -0400
From: "Beer Guy" <BeerGuy at 1Gallon.com>
Subject: Sean & Mark's "discussion"

I'm not much of a poster, and then usually asking questions, but it seems to
me to be a waste of time to argue about the personality or intelligence of
people that you haven't met in person a few times.

Not being an AHA member, I'm not knowlegable about the issue, but the flames
are getting annoying.

Now, the question:

My cascades (first year) are about 12' tall and just reach my deck. At this
point, should I prune them above a joint (I know I'll get some smart remark
for *this* choice of word) to promote branching, leave them as single vines,
or just keep trying to convince my wife that they look good and are not just
"another piece of junk from one of your hobbies taking over the house"?

Henry in Portage
www.Dormbrew.com
www.1Gallon.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:45:34 -0400
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Locating a Nipple

Alan McKay (that teasin' little imp ...) asks:
> I have a 45 litre / 11 US gallon SS pot that I want
> to get a coupling (OK, not a nipple but the subject
> line was better that way ;-)) welded into.  But I'm
> not sure how high off the bottom of the pot to put
> it.

Your ball valve will most likely require a Male Pipe Thread on the outside.
What I would suggest is a Male "Flare" thread on the inside.  Attaching
your manifold via a flare coupling means that you can weld the fitting as
low as is practical on the kettle, without regard to having to swing the
entire manifold inside to thread it on.  Bending an "S" curve in the tube
between the manifold and coupling will get it as low to the bottom as you
want it.


Mark in Kalamazoo



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:02:21 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: And whats with that burnt-sugar taste?

Kevin Crouch <kcrouching at yahoo.com> or Vancouver, WA asks

>Can anyone out there add any insight to the phenomenon
>of the "smoothing" out of that burnt sugar taste in
>beers that use high-melanoidin malts such as munich?

It's always tough to analyze flavors and aromas long distance.  Your 
local club would be a good source for on-the-scene opinions.  But 
I'll offer a few thoughts.

Dark malts such as Munich can be used 100% - that's probably how they 
were used originally.  Brewers in certain locales discovered that 
their own water, barley and brewing techniques suited themselves to 
certain malting practices - or, the malting practices dictated 
certain brewing techniques.  Always hard to say what came first.  But 
the flavors you mention are not typical in my experience (more 
thoughts in a moment).

>I've not read Ray Daniels' Brewing Lager Beer.

Ray has written many fine books, but the one by that title was 
written by Greg Noonan.

>Historically speaking, are these flavor compounds, and
>the time required to mature them part of the impetus
>for substituing a smaller portion of crystal malt for
>the larger percentage of dark malts more commonly used
>in pre-pale malt brewing days?

I've used large portions of dark Munich malt in quick maturing 
English milds with no problem, so I don't think that they require 
maturing normally.

>Obviously some brewers in certain countries have not compromised this
>formula.

Certainly true - some Bavarian beers are made with virtually 100% 
Munich malt, and I do it myself.  They taste great very young, but 
improve with age.

>For clarity sake, I do not decoct, and I rarely step mash because my 
>water is soft and the Belgian grains are highly modified (aaaah 
>brewtopia).

Aha, here we have, I think, a clue.  I suspect your mash is too 
acidic.  Not sure just how this would lead to your problem, though, 
but it's a clue.

Dark grains are acidic, and to achieve a proper mash pH, this acidity 
needs to be balanced by alkaline water.  That's why dark beers arose 
in certain areas (see above) like Munich, London, Dublin, etc., and 
why pale beers arose in Burton, Pilsn, etc.

In this day of water treatment, any beer can be brewed anywhere, but 
it requires an understanding of water chemistry.  I would suggest 
that you use some calcium carbonate (chalk) in your mash (it won't 
dissolve in the mash water).  If you can't check your mash pH, you 
could just add a measured amount based on references that should be 
available.

Hope this helps a little.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:17:36 -0400
From: "Peter Fantasia" <fantasiapeter at hotmail.com>
Subject: Amahl Turczyn for president

I just had to say my 2 cents regarding the AHA. My favorite change made in
recent memory has got to be Amahl Turczyn. I have been brewing for 12 years
and I don't know how many times I've read recipes claiming to be a clone of
this or that beer and followed the directions religiously only to find the
beer to be nothing like the original. Now let me say I am all for creativity
and my Aztec ale with hot peppers and cocao is living proof of this but it
is nice to be able to replicate some of my favorite brews.I have found
Amahl's recipes to be flawless. If he says it's a Guinness clone it damn
well is.

Thanks Amahl for some great recipes! I haven't had time to try them all but
so far you're spot on! Amahl Turczyn for president.

Pete Fantasia
Brewin in da loverly pines of south jersey


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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:23:46 -0400
From: Tony Verhulst <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: AHA and BJCP


DRTEELE" <drteele at bellsouth.net> writes:

> ....submitted your beers to competitions, you would get 
> standardized reviews (thanks to BJCP)....

The AHA and BJCP are back together again? I resigned my AHA membership
in protest when that fiasco took place.

Tony V.


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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:42:32 -0700
From: "Consumer's Edge Network" <consumersedgenet at earthlink.net>
Subject: BrewingTechniques subscriber make-goods

A message to former subscribers of BrewingTechniques magazine:

We have just completed a mass email campaign to confirm contact 
information for past BT subscribers who are still due their back 
issues.  Unfortunately, many of the addresses are no longer 
active/valid.

If you are a past BT subscriber with a claim for back issues and have 
not received an email from us in the past couple of weeks, please 
send email to:

consumersedgenet at earthlink.net

Please be sure to include your full name and contact information.

We will begin fulfillment of confirmed orders within the next week or so.

Thanks again to everyone for their patience as CEN and 
BrewingTechniques endeavor to make good on the magazine's commitments 
to past subscribers.

Consumer's Edge Network


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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:53:17 -0500
From: "Joseph Marsh" <josephmarsh62 at hotmail.com>
Subject: beer sounds & whining & nipples

Coriolis effect is zero at the equator not the poles and what does NE europe 
have to do with it anyway?;*)

Can't say I've been following the hbd closely for the last few weeks so I'm 
not going to comment on specifics. I will say that sometimes even a retail 
establishment needs to kick out a customer. The bad word of mouth is offset 
by source of complaint. People know a whiner or a know it all and take the 
source into account even if they use tact and don't say anything to the 
whiner. At least that's my experience.

Nipple height in a kettle should be high enough to make any work -inside- 
the kettle easy enough but is not critical. For instance in my lautern tun I 
use a copper siphon over the top.

Joe



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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:24:41 -0700
From: "Haborak, Kevin" <KHaborak at golder.com>
Subject: Re:  Amount of CO2 produced by fermentation

The figure of 1170 grams of CO2 does not seem like alot, cosidering the
initial mass of the syrup is 20 Kg.  The density of liquid CO2 at -37C and
11 atm is approximately 6.5 Kg/L, the specific gravity of dry ice is 1.56 at
 -79C and 1 atm.  Therefore the volume of 1170g of solid CO2 would be about
0.77 L, and 0.18 L for  liquid CO2.  This is about 3.8% and 0.9% of the
initial volume, respectively.  Obviously you would want to correct for any
specific gravity difference between the frozen and liquid wort, and make
density corrections based on the compressibilty of the wort to make the
comparisons exact for full attenuation.  




Kevin.


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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 12:39:00 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: High FG in Strong Lager

Hi, all.

I brewed the Fix Maibock at BigBrew, with an OG of 1.071.

My mash schedule was a protein rest for 15 minutes at 130F, a 45 minute rest
at 140F, then a 15 minute rest at 158F before mashing out, which was all
within his recommended mash schedule. I fermented with Wyeast 2206 Bavarian
Lager yeast at 50F for 2 weeks, racked to secondary, then slowly dropped the
temp to about 38F over several weeks.

Now after 10 weeks, the gravity is only down to 1.026. I suspect that the
140F rest was too low, and that the beta amylase wasn't active enough at
that temp. I do inline aeration which has always been very effective, and my
beers are generally well-attenuated. I've brewed a few dozen lagers without
having this problem before, including a few with this high of an OG, but
never before with such a rest temperature.

So what can I do to fix it? I don't think racking onto a yeast cake will
help much - too many dextrins. What about adding some amylase enzyme? I've
never tried this before, but would it reduce some of the dextrins to
fermentable sugars, allowing the existing yeast to work on them? Should I
pitch additional yeast, too?

TIA,
Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian, although for a few days last month
I was very near 0,0 actual.
State of Franklin Homebrewers http://hbd.org/franklin

Have a suggestion on improving the AHA? email me at stevejones at aob.org




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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:58:39 -0700
From: "Brian Schar" <schar at cardica.com>
Subject: I couldn't resist

Although I know better than to feed the trolls, I couldn't resist pointing
this out from Sean's post yesterday:

<You truely showed your intelligence there.>

'Nuff said.

By the way, I am a happy member of the AHA and have been so for many years,
and I'm studying for the BJCP exam, as are many members of my local club.
The AHA has value for me.

Brian Schar
Menlo Park, CA



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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:51:40 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: burnt sugar and munich malt

Kevin Crouch asks about a burnt sugar type taste in high high munich/vienna
containing lagers.  

My latest impressions of some of my high munich beers is that the high
munich levels really bring out ones control/ or in my case lack of some
control over mash or post-fermentation oxidation.  My normal low munich
containing brews do not generally seem to suffer from oxidation damage
before they are consumed say 6 to 12 weeks post ferment.  However, my high
munich containing batches do seem to suffer from a non-cardboardy but funny
sweet taste before I consider their time up.  To me atleast, this points to
possible mash oxidation damage.  They are not lagers for me, but perhaps
consider your mash and how you might be exposing your wort to excessive
oxidation through stirring, running off, etc.

My data points on high munich brews tend to be in the 50 to 100% high munich
content mashes.

Good luck,
Pete Czerpak
albany, NY


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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:07:13 -0500
From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com>
Subject: Pub Discount Program and the AHA

I too live in the Chicago area.  Last weekend I had a chance to meet with
the regional brewer for RAM.  I learned that there are state laws that
prohibit discounting beer and liquor sales.  Any discounts must be available
to the entire legal drinking public.  However, they can discount "events"
which beer and liquor are served.  This is probably why the AHA discount is
no different than Rock Bottoms proprietary program.

For me, the pub discount program is not a huge benefit.  I prefer to enjoy
homebrew, share information, and keep up to date on the latest trends and
the evolution of homebrewing.  This is why I really enjoy my local club
BABBLE and reading the hbd.  In my opinion, Zymurgy has been cyclical in its
quality and focus.  I admit that I prefer articles that focus on all-grain
brewing, the scientific aspects, and styles.  Recently, I have gone back
through old issues in my preparation for presentation I made for our club on
Belgian beers.  Even in the "poorer issues" or "beginner issues" I found
applicable information for my presentation and they helped me discuss the
topic at both beginner and advanced brewing levels.  An issue may not
interest me today, but few years down the road it may very well.

I don't feel the AHA dues are out of line especially when I compared to dues
for professional society which I belong to (which in my opinion provide less
benefit and require more of my involvement/work).  I do believe that the AHA
is trying to be more member focused.  At least they survey the membership
concerning their interest.  This was not that common 10 years ago.

Still brewing after all these years and still happy!

Prost!

Daniel Morey

BTW, if anyone is interested the Belgian paper and other can be found on our
clubs website, which is hosted by the hbd (many thanks to the hbd).







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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:03:44 -0600
From: "Gary Glass" <gary at aob.org>
Subject: AHA Mead Day

The AHA's 1st Annual Mead Day is coming up on Saturday August 3, 2002.

Join us in celebrating one of the world's oldest fermented beverages, Mead
(honey wine). Situated midway between the AHA's Big Brew and Teach A Friend
To Homebrew Day events, Mead Day is a chance for homebrewers and meadmakers
to gather on a summer Saturday to share camaraderie and to make the
'Beverage of Kings.'

The official Mead Day recipe, 'Twin Peaks Titillation,' a dry, sparkling
raspberry ginger mead, was provided by Dick Dunn, the moderator of the Mead
Lovers Digest (www.talisman.com/mead). Feel free to modify this recipe or
use your own if you prefer.

Please register your site at www.beertown.org/AHA/MeadDay/index.htm. After
Mead Day come back to this site and fill out the remittance form. This will
help us track the progress of the event and help us to better promote it in
the future.

We'll be making a couple of batches of mead at my house in beautiful
Sunshine, CO (I'm hoping to use the occassion to recruit volunteers to help
bottle a couple of meads I made back on Teach A Friend To Homebrew Day last
year as well, shhhh, don't tell 'em it's work).

Cheers!

Gary Glass, Project Coordinator
Association of Brewers
888-U-CAN-BREW
(303) 447-0816 x 121
gary at aob.org
www.beertown.org

Celebrate! July is American Beer Month!

The Great American Beer Festival Turns 21 this Year! Mark your calendars,
October 3-5, 2002 at the Denver Convention Center, www.beertown.org/GABF/



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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:23:09 -0400
From: "FLJohnson at portbridge.com" <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Curacao Orange Liqueur

Anyone ever used Curacao liqueur in a Belgian wit as a substitute for
dried Curacao orange peel?  If so, how well does this substitution
work?

Fred Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA


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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:59:42 -0700
From: "dave sapsis" <dsapsis at earthlink.net>
Subject: astroglide/AHA

Jim of Millsap gives us a sweet bit of imagery:
>Now my nearest neighbor lives more than
>a mile away and I am able to enjoy the hot tube in my all in all.
                                                                 ^^^^
Which reminds me to post my annual reminder for those looking for
lubrication in all the right places -- Astroglide.  As a keg fitting (or
other) lube, it just doesn't get any better.  It'll grease even the
crankiest punters.
********
As a (very) longtime ex-AHA member, I have to say I am duly impressed by the
litany of folks that have come out asking for community support.  To a
person, they are people I like and respect.  The current vocal dissenter  is
not so blessed.  Now, should Jim Liddil offer up a suggestion to give 'em a
second chance, I will consider the world realigned, and put a check in the
mail...
- --dave, sacramento



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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:04:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Sarette <j2saret at yahoo.com>
Subject: propane cooker

oddly enough Dave Burley writes:> They also have a
170,000 BTU propane cooker on sale for $59.95 but add 
in
shipping charges..<
Just when I was sitting with a copy of the sportsmans
guide catalog ( www.sportsmansguide.com )in front of
me
wondering if I should tap the collective wisdom of the
list with my questions.  I guess I am obliged to by
the coincidence.  They sell the 170,000 btu cooker as
a turkey fryer.  the cooker and a 26 qt stainless
steel pot sell for 47.97 plus s&h I was wondering if
the pot would be big enough for a small (5 gal)
homebrewer like myself? (I use a 22 qt pot now and it
is too small) and also if 170,000 btu is efficient for
a full boil beer?  
What I would propose to do is mash on the stove as now
then sparge, boil and use the 26 qt pot as primary
fermenter in the basement.
What optimistic assumptions am I making?  What
overlooked problems will I have?
Would  I be wiser to forgo the cooker and invest in a
small conical fermenter as my next step instead?

Thanks
John S
j2saret at yahoo.com

p.s.  The Titanic diaster ale turned out to be
magnificient  I can see why all the discussion of CaP
and CACA.



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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:02:51 -0400
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: Sean's Rantings


You guys are blasting Sean because he wants the AHA
to step up and pursue brewpubs in his area to participate
in the Pub Discount program.

Sean complains because the AHA has chosen not to do any
of the work of soliciting any pubs, but instead, has
taken a "Let them come to us" approach, or worse yet,
the AHA wants the membership to go out and solicit the
pubs to join the AHA Pub Discount program.

DRTEELE writes:

>You are not a customer of the AHA, you are a member.

This is nitpicking.  The strictest definition of a
customer is "one who gives money in exchange for
a product or service".  AHA members pay the AHA a
fee, for their product or service, so this does fit
the definition of a customer, at least as far as I'm
concerned.

then he writes:

>Your dues are not an investment, they are DUES (Websters
>- a fee or charge for membership)

Yes, I agree.  Paying a membership fee does not make you
an owner or shareholder of the AHA.

Now I'd like to introduce another term - employee.
Choosing to be part of the AHA does not make you their
employee, either.  Nor are we agents.

We have no authority to offer anything or make any
agreements on behalf of the AHA, including participation
in AHA programs.

If the AHA wants to tout the Pub Discount program, and
use it to increase membership and possibly to justify
recent cost increases, or even to increase again,
then it is the AHA who will benefit from the program.

So why is it ridiculous to ask that THEY solicit the pubs?
Is it because if the AHA solicits a pub, they're afraid
they might have to pay or at least offer the pub something
in return?

I can understand that they don't know every pub in every state.
But that is where the membership can step in, by RECOMMENDING
pubs they'd like to see participate.  The AHA should be
administering this program.  As I said, we are members, not
employees or agents.

I think the way to remedy this is to have a focal point or
contact at the AHA who is in charge of this program, that
members can send recommendations to.  That person should
then solicit the pubs recommended, on behalf of the AHA,
as that person would be a formal representative of the AHA.

So I guess I'm kind of on Sean's side on this issue.

Bill 



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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 19:26:40 -0700
From: "dave holt" <brewdave at hotmail.com>
Subject: Pub discount, Munich malt

I am happy to report that the Rock Bottom (formerly HOPS! brewpubs)chain 
here in AZ honors the AHA membership card.  The server didn't know about it 
and went to ask.  Personally, I will mention the discount program to other 
pubs I visit.

I have been bothered by the use of Munich malt too in my lagers.  Haven't 
ever experienced the burnt sugar taste.

I like malty beers as much as I like hoppy beers, probably more.  I've used 
Munich in low percentages, 20-30%.  The lagers were malty, tasted good at 
first but later (Kleinism, mid-glass) became, for a lack of better 
description, insipid.  I generally reserve that term for brewpubs that use 
way too much crystal malt in their middle of the road Red/Amber ales.

The Maerzen that I brewed has been sitting for a year or so because I count 
on the flavor profile to change over time (is that due to oxidation or HSA 
;) and some point become drinkable.  Pretty bad when my 19 yr old step-son 
and friends tell me they don't want another glass. Otherwise I am seen as 
the brew-god in their eyes with the other beers I brew.  At least he has 
more taste than I did at that age.

I have seen brewers list their recipes here, that at times say thay use 100% 
Munich.  This is hard for me to believe or imagine the taste based on my 
experience.  Is it just the brand of Munich I am using?
Or I just don't like Munich?  Or I should be doing decoction instead of step 
or simple infusion?


Dave Holt
Thank god it is raining in AZ, well somewhere in AZ




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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:47:23 -0400
From: "Alain Arsenault" <alain_arsenault at sympatico.ca>
Subject: Reusing yeast


I don't know if this book is available in the states but it's a very good
book on yeast.

First Steps in Yeast Culture by Pierre Rajotte.  From the same author:
Belgian Ale. (Classic Beer Style Series #6).

Here is the resume on the back:

An illustrated manuel on the techniques of proper yeast handling
More than a century ago the technique of pure yeast culture was first
proposed. For the first time since then, a complete illustrated manual shows
you in simple terms the basic manipulations. Instructions are detailed in
such a way that even a person with no formal training in the field of yeast
manipulation can become proficient. Homebrewers following the demonstrated
tips and techniques will attain a level of quality never before dreamed.
Those considering brewing on a commercial scale will be more likely to
succeed if they master the techniques detailed in this book.

William Eaton, Ph.D. Microbiologist, Malaspina University College, Nanaimo,
B.C.
Pierre's book is very well written, beautifully illustrated, and easy to
follow. The manipulations are so well broken down that I will show them to
all my students.

Joe Rolfe, Ould Newbury Brewing Co., Newbury, MA.
Great collection of practical methods, tips and procedures. This is the type
of book every brewer needs. I wish I had it when I first opened my brewery.

Joris Van Gheluwe. Former Director of Research and Development, Honorary
Member of the Master Brewers Association of the Americas, Fellow of the
Institute of Brewing, U.K.
This timely, very practical manual on techniques for microbiological
manipulations is a very useful publication for anyone about to embark on
homebrewing or microbrewing. It is almost impossible to be a succesful home
or microbrewer without adequate microbiological practice.Rajotte's endeavor
and passion for the job has the microbiologist feel. This concise, reader
friendly manual is a valuable book for the practical brewer. As a bonus, the
apprpriate explicit and excellent drawings warrant the promotion and
recommendations of this manual.

Alain Arsenault
http://www.broue.com/labrasserie (in french only)



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