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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: propane cooker (Jay Pfaffman)
  More AHA - hit page down if you don't want to read any more... ("Fred Waltman")
  All together now "Good Morning Mr Reennneerrrr" (Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative)
  just for Paul Kensler (Blue Nude Brewery)
  re: Brew Shops in Gainsville FL? ("Mark Tumarkin")
  too cold.. (Darrell_Leavitt/SUNY)
  Re: Acetobacter $# at &%- Or - crying in my (lack of)  beer ("Chad Gould")
  Soft Wheat (cont'd) ("John Misrahi")
  re: Acetobacter $# at &%- Or - crying in my (lack of)  beer (Ed Jones)
  HBD vs Forums vs RCB ("John Misrahi")
  RE: High FG in lager/Fix mashing schedule (shick)
  julio - scotch ale, Forum vs. HBD ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Fix Maibock attenuation ("Peter Fantasia")
  Summer Wheat ("Colby Fry")
  RE: Acetobacter ("Shawn E Lupold, Ph.D")
  Filtering Wort (Nerospride)
  Re: agave (Kelly Grigg)
  Re: Acetobacter (Kelly Grigg)
  Acetobacter infection... ("Smith, Brian")
  salt additions ("Chuck Dougherty")
  Competition Results posted (Scott & Cherie Stihler)
  Brewing without lifting (walcin1)
  That Damned Gary Glass! (mohrstrom)
  kegerators (Marc Sedam)
  RE: Yes, it's about Sean and the AHA (sorry) ("Gary Smith")
  RE: The cursed Digest format (Brian Lundeen)
  CNN on alcopops (Bill Wible)
  Brussels Hotels ("Pete Calinski")
  How much CO2? (Spencer W Thomas)
  re: Water filter lifetime (Rama Roberts)
  Re: High FG in Strong Lager (Rama Roberts)
  Goose Island Clone (Beer Drinker)
  Re: High FG in Strong Lager (Jeff Renner)
  Standards of Brewing and AHA Discounts ("Paul Gatza")
  RE: Acetobacter $# at &%- Or - crying in my (lack of)  beer (Kent Fletcher)
  Re: Agave (blutick)
  Want Recipe (Rick Lassabe)
  RE: counter pressure bottle filler (Kent Fletcher)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:14:43 -0700
From: Jay Pfaffman <pfaffman at relaxpc.com>
Subject: Re: propane cooker

On Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:04:12 -0700 (PDT), John Sarette
<j2saret at yahoo.com> said:

> What I would propose to do is mash on the stove as now then sparge,
> boil and use the 26 qt pot as primary fermenter in the basement.
> What optimistic assumptions am I making?  What overlooked problems
> will I have?  Would I be wiser to forgo the cooker and invest in a
> small conical fermenter as my next step instead?

If you're brewing on your stove you should definitely go for a cooker.
Brewing outside is definitely the way to go (especially now that I
live in San Francisco where brewing season never ends).  A 26 qt
kettle is a bit small for a 5 gallon batch since you'll want to start
with close to 6 gallons and 2 qt's of space at the top is a sure way
to boil over.  Of course boil-overs outside on the driveway, lawn, or
deck are much less traumatic than they are on your stove top.

Before I bought a conical fermenter, I'd invest in a 15 (or 20!)
gallon kettle so that you can do 10 gallon batches.  After I made my
first 5 gallon all-grain batch I was quickly interested in doing
larger batches.  I had a 20 gallon kettle on loan for a year or so and
really miss it.  More than once I brewed 15 gallon batches.  It's also
nice to have a bit of extra room in the kettle in case your mash is
more efficient than you'd anticipated and you end up with a couple
extra gallons of beer.

A conical fermenter in a temperature-controlled environment would be
nice, but for now I'm happy enough with 6.5 gallon carboys (though for
my last batch I used a 14 gallon demi-john & liked that too).

- -- 
Jay Pfaffman                           pfaffman at relaxpc.com
+1-415-821-7507 (H)                    +1-415-810-2238 (M)
http://relax.ltc.vanderbilt.edu/~pfaffman/


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Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:02:22 -0700
From: "Fred Waltman" <fwaltman at attbi.com>
Subject: More AHA - hit page down if you don't want to read any more...

Regardless of the word "Association" in the name, the AHA is not a true
"membership organization." Every association I have been involved with,
either as a member or as a consultant, has allowed the membership to
control the direction of the group thru the election of officers and/or
directors. A "Board of Advisors" does not cut it. Until that time the
only real vote I have is to withhold my dollars by not "joining." 

BTW, one of the original beefs way back when was the way they tried to
restrict public access of their financial documents. Has that changed?
Are they more open about this now? (This is not a troll, I really would
like to know if this has changed.)

Fred Waltman
Marina del Rey, CA



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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:20:33 +1000 (EST)
From: Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative <Scott.Morgan at Sun.COM>
Subject: All together now "Good Morning Mr Reennneerrrr"

Jeff,

I was speaking to a crafty malt guy the other day re Vienna Malt's.

Vienna Malt is not very much used and somewhat misunderstood Down Under. 
I was fortunate to have a bag at home and made a few 100% Vienna malt lagers.

The best was a lager at 20 Ibu's and 3kg of Vienna only. The fella's really
loved it and drank it within a week and a half. I was kinda shocked as
it was a delicate beer, not full of hops and malt as usually flows from the
"Yet to be Rebuilt" brewery.


I will be making my famous ginger wit beer 
http://hbd.org/brewery/cm3/recs/09_85.html on Monday for our 
daughter's wedding next month (I've already made a CAP, a Vienna mild 
lager and a porter).  I will use 45% coarsely milled soft white 
winter Michigan wheat, 5% rolled oats, and 50% six-row malt.


Anyways Sempai Jeff, just wondering on what malt bill you used in 
your Vienna mild and your general opinion.

Can i have an early mark now??

Scotty

1/2 a ton of malt in the garage 
but no brewing going on in Sydney.



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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:30:17 -0600
From: Blue Nude Brewery <mash_tun at yahoo.com>
Subject: just for Paul Kensler

Ok, Paul, you asked for this one:
"Paul, you ignorant slut"

ARRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH

At first I got pissed off at the guy that started all this stuff, but now I am 
actually have a laugh about it.
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is
bacteria. - German Proverb



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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 06:39:13 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Brew Shops in Gainsville FL?

Denis,

Unfortunately, there's no longer a brew supply shop in Gainesville. Most of us
buy from either Hearts Homebrew in Orlando
http://www.heartshomebrew.com/home_3.html or Homebrew Den in Tallahassee
http://tfn.net/HomebrewDen/

If you're going to be in town next Friday, July 26th, we'll be holding our
regular monthly homebrew club meeting. Consider yourself and your son invited.
Let me know if you can make it and I'll email address, directions, etc. And
bring some of your homebrew too! At any rate,have your son give me a call at
some later date if y'all can't make it to the meeting. We've got a good group,
but are always interested in new members, especially if they're carrying on a
family tradition.

hope I get the chance to meet you while you're in town,

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL




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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 07:15:41 -0400
From: Darrell_Leavitt/SUNY%SUNY at esc.edu
Subject: too cold..

my bet would be too cold...too soon...

 I know that there are different views on this , but all the lagers that I
have made have started at normal temps, so as to
not shock the yeast ( or so I think)...then slowly dropped to fermentation
temps (3 degrees per day)....

 Let's see what others say...

 ..Darrell



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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:26:05 -0400
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Acetobacter $# at &%- Or - crying in my (lack of)  beer

> It seems to start in the primary fermenter (plastic) as on the first two
> batches I could smell it. As I looked back on the brew process for these
two
> batches I thought I knew where the infection might have happened. This
third
> one though, everything went as planned. When tasting the wort after
primary
> fermentation there was an ever so slight vinegar taste. I had hoped that I
> mistasted but alas no.

Plastic can harbor little tiny scratches that I've personally found very
difficult to clean. I personally lost two batches to probably a lactic acid
bacteria... one possibility is that you may have to change your fermenter
out. After those two batches, I switched to glass... we'll see what happens
(I'm on beer #2 with the glass fermenter as the primary). My suspicion is
that glass is much less susceptible to tiny scratches that harbor bacteria.

Personally, I don't think 1-2 minutes is a good enough contact time for
iodophor... but maybe it's fine. I usually immerse for 20-30 minutes.





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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:34:47 -0700
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: Soft Wheat (cont'd)

Jeff Renner,


You say here that the soft wheat can simply be milled and added directly to
the mash. Now it has been suggested to me that a protein rest is required to
gelatinize the wheat. Is this correct? I have not yet done a step mash, only
single infusion and decoction, in my 3 months or so of all-graining.  So is
it necesarry to perform a step mash ? What would the rest consist of?

thank you

John Misrahi
Montreal, Canada

#2 will work fine, but is unnecessary.  #3 is simplest and works fine
because the wheat starch will gelatinize at mash temperatures.  Just
mill it coarsely.  I use a Corona mill, but may try my newly acquired
MaltMill.




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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:36:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ed Jones <ejones at ironacres.com>
Subject: re: Acetobacter $# at &%- Or - crying in my (lack of)  beer

A very thirsty Marc wrote:

"My last 3, yes 3 batches, have been ruined by acetobacter to varying
degrees.

*SNIP*

I can think of three possibilities:

1) The swishing process is not effective enough and I need to immerse
2) The iodophor concentrate has lost it's effectiveness. It is 4 or 5 years
old but is still a very dark color and has been kept away from sunlight and
tightly capped. Is there any way to tell?
3) I have hidden gunk somewhere in the system"

Marc, I'd a number 4 to that list also. You mentioned you scrub your plastic
fermenters with nylon pads. Could it be that you've got many micro-scratches
hiding funk? Perhaps to be safe, replace your fermenters and in the future
use soft cloth to clean the plastic. Any scratches can hide bacteria and
ruin your brews.

Also, I think your swishing process (#1) is largely ineffective. Iodophor needs
contact time to kill the nasties. I'm thinking 1-2 minutes of swishing means
less than that for any given area of contact. I'm fairly sure iodophor needs
more contact time to be effective.

If you're worried about hidden funk, perhaps you should try using PBW.
Get a small amount from your LHBS or online and I think you'll be impressed
just how well it cleans!

Hope this helps.


- --
Ed Jones - Columbus, Ohio U.S.A - [163.8, 159.4] [B, D] Rennerian

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:38:50 -0700
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: HBD vs Forums vs RCB


Jake Isaacs wrote about the HBD mailing list versus the forums. I think they
are all useful resources in their own right. The Rec.Crafts.Brewing
newsgroup is also indispensable, full of great people and some very helpful
advice. It's also *generally* quite free of trolling and pointless feuding
(just don't write any posts involving mills).

John Misrahi

Montreal, Quebec




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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:43:42 -0400
From: shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: RE: High FG in lager/Fix mashing schedule

Hi all,

     Steve Jones wrote in about underattenuation in a Maibock that
he mashed with the Fix 60-70C program.  Jeff Renner also wrote in 
about his similar experiences.  Both of their results are contrary
to what I've experienced and to the conclusions of a long discussion
I had recently with one of our local master brewers.

     I've used the Fix regime a lot, although less often in recent
years, because I ended up with beers that were too dry and attenuated,
especially with the 45minutes at 60C, 15 at 70C Steve used.  As Jeff
suggests, I've moved to a higher rest for the beta-amylase emphasis
(I've used 148F or so,) but to avoid overattenuation rather than
underattenuation.  When I mentioned this the head brewer at a good
local brewpub, he wasn't surprised at all by my overattenuation problems.
He points out that malts have become so modified in recent years (even
more so in the last few,) that we often get complete conversion in 
as little as 15 minutes, even a low temperatures such as 140F.  We 
argued (and sampled beer) over this until pretty late, but he finally 
convinced me.

     This has prompted me to raise my dough in temperature even higher,
in many cases, to about 152F for 20 or so minutes, before raising to
158F, except for beer where I'm looking for a dry finish (like a CAP.)
So I guess I'm siding with Marc Sedam in this exchange: the likely
culprit for underattenuation is underpitching/underaeration.

                       Paul Shick,
                       Cleveland Hts, Ohio




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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:58:28 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: julio - scotch ale, Forum vs. HBD

Julio asks about Scotch ale hints.  I would use in the area of 1 to 2% black
malt (I used roasted barley).  I have used too much at 5% and this combined
with the wort carmelization boildown led to a wort that was too dark for my
tastes and desires.  Also, I would recommend using the Wyeast yeast rather
than the White Labs.  I liked the flavor profile better with the Wyeast.
Also, try and ferment cool if you can like 60 to 65F instead of 65 to 70F.
I also used a touch of peat malt although everyone will argue that this
isn't traditional - I like the taste however in terms of slight complexity.

Jake Isaacs asks about HBD versus forum preferences.  I tend to watch the
Forum but rarely take part.  In general, I like the discussions better that
occur here at the HBD.  Plus the fact that it comes out only once a day
means you are more likely to think about your posting and have time to do
some research if required.  Like you say, the Forum is good for immediate
response but immediate is not always best.  I find that the HBD often has
the most up to date and cutting edge techniques first as well - you do see
plenty of Forum discussion on things presented first in the HBD.  There are
some great people in both places however.  I am happy that some people
participate in both.

Pete Czerpak
Albany, NY


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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:58:02 -0400
From: "Peter Fantasia" <fantasiapeter at hotmail.com>
Subject: Fix Maibock attenuation

Steve,
I recently had a Belgian trippel that refused to drop below 1.030.After
trying rousing etc.. I added a few tablespoons fermax yeast nutrient and
some yeast energizer (about 5 tablets crushed) and my gravity dropped to the
predicted 1.012. Good Luck

Pete Fantasia, Mays Landing, NJ


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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:17:35 -0400
From: "Colby Fry" <colbyfry at pa.net>
Subject: Summer Wheat

There is a beer by Fredrick Brewing company called Spring wheat. It is a
highly hopped wheat ale (aroma not bittering) that has a nice quenching taste.
Does anyone have a recipe or something close? I appreciate it. Thank you,
Colby fry
Orrstown, Pa







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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:23:44 -0400
From: "Shawn E Lupold, Ph.D" <lupolds at jhmi.edu>
Subject: RE: Acetobacter


Marc's beer has a problem with a bacterial infection.  I've got a few
suggestions.

1)  Switch to glass for fermentation.  Small scrapes and grooves in
plastic are good hiding places for contaminants.  I have a ten year old
plastic fermentation bucket that I now use to soak and sterilize
bottles.  Surprisingly it still smells like wort, even though I haven't
fermented in it since 1995!

2)  Increase your yeast pitch considerably.  The amount of yeast you get
in a liquid culture is the minimum amount to use.  I would pitch your
liquid culture (already started) into 1 gallon of boiled dry extract the
night before you brew.  Add your chilled wort to this on brew day, and
the yeast will take over.  Any minor contaminant wont stand a chance.  I
think you'll be happy with the result as well.

Shawn



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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:37:16 EDT
From: Nerospride at aol.com
Subject: Filtering Wort

    I am having a problem filtering wort, in that everything that I've tried 
seems to plug up almost immediately (cheese cloth, coffee filters.  I would 
like to know what the rest of the world uses.

Rob Loeken
Apple Valley, MN


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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:07:57 -0500
From: Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: Re: agave

Sounds interesting...where in the world did you get agave? Thought that
only grew in the tequila part of Mexico....did you grow it? Order it?
Was is fresh or dried or what? 

Thanks in advance....

Kelly

On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 12:22:38AM -0400, after pounding the keys randomly, 
Darrell_Leavitt came up with....
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 06:27:52 -0400
> From: Darrell_Leavitt/SUNY%SUNY at esc.edu
> Subject: agave
> 
> Paul,
> 
>   I made a Blue Agave Mead a year or so ago that was a real hit...just 10
> lb clover honey and 3lb agave , using champagne yeast...  It came out at
> about 8%...
> 
>  ..Darrell
> 
>
- ------------------

Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright
until you hear them speak.

- ------------------



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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:12:25 -0500
From: Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: Re: Acetobacter

First...ferment in glass!!  Got get a couple of 5-6 gallon carboys....
I've never had this problem with glass...the only time I have wort in
plastic, is when I'm doing a fruit beer.....

HTH,

Kelly

On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 12:22:38AM -0400, after pounding the keys randomly, 
"Hache, Marc" came up with....
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:21:05 -0400
> From: "Hache, Marc" <HacheM at PIOS.COM>
> Subject: Acetobacter $# at &%- Or - crying in my (lack of)  beer
> 
> 
> My last 3, yes 3 batches, have been ruined by acetobacter to varying
> degrees.
> 
> I am struggling to figure out where the heck the infection is coming from.
> My cleaning and sanitation routines have not changed.
> 
> It seems to start in the primary fermenter (plastic) as on the first two
> batches I could smell it. As I looked back on the brew process for these two
> batches I thought I knew where the infection might have happened. This third
> one though, everything went as planned. When tasting the wort after primary
> fermentation there was an ever so slight vinegar taste. I had hoped that I
> mistasted but alas no.
<snip>
> Any suggestion, thoughts, comments, commiseration ?
> 
> A very thirsty Marc in Winnipeg.
> 
>


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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:17:45 -0500
From: "Smith, Brian" <BHSMITH at bogmil.gylrd.com>
Subject: Acetobacter infection...

Marc,

You'll probably hear this a thousand times but here goes....

Don't use a scrubby on plastic, use a soft cotton cloth (like a dishtowel).
Scrubbies leave near microscopic scratches in the plastic where little
beasties can hide from the sanitizer.  Go out and purchase a new primary.



Brian Smith
Big Ring Brewery
Bogalusa, La





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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:29:45 -0500
From: "Chuck Dougherty" <jdougherty at wlj.com>
Subject: salt additions

It would seem that I have had a run of bad luck lately in brewing endeavors.
(You may recall my recent post concerning the dead refrigerator.)  My latest
problem has to do with a pale ale.  The tap water at my house is soft, and I
have brewed several wonderful APAs by doing nothing whatsoever to the water.
An English friend asked if I could do something more like the Burton ales
from back home, and I said sure, why not.  So I calculated out all of the
salt additions to duplicate Burton water and brewed away.  I think my brother
best summed up the taste of this beer with his comment, "this tastes like a
swimming pool."

My tap water certainly has some level of chlorine in it, but I have never
bothered to filter it out because it does not seem to have negatively
impacted my beer in the past.  So I am wondering, do all of those brewing
salts I added enhance the taste perception of chlorine?  Or could the salts
themselves somehow have generated the chlorine-like taste?  Is this another
one of those situations where you read a lot about the unique water somewhere,
but the truth is that all of the local breweries really use treated water?  I
don't think there is an error in my calculation of brewing salt additions
since I ran it through ProMash and have rechecked it several times since.

I hate to make a bad beer without figuring out what went wrong, so any
thoughts would be appreciated.

Chuck Dougherty
Little Rock, Arkansas


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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 06:33:50 -0800
From: Scott & Cherie Stihler <stihlerunits at mosquitonet.com>
Subject: Competition Results posted

Please join me in congratulating Jason Ditsworth of Anchorage, Alaska
for winning  the Best of Show of the 2002 E.T. Barnette Homebrew
Competition.

There were a total of 67 entries from nine states.

The results of this year's E.T. Barnette Homebrew Competition  have
been posted at the following URL:

http://www.mosquitonet.com/~stihlerunits/ScottsDen/Beer/Events/ETB2002.html


Cheers,

Scott Stihler
Fairbanks, Alaska




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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:37:20 -0400
From: walcin1 at comcast.net
Subject: Brewing without lifting

Hello to the Collective,

    I am in need of some advice on how to limit the lifting needed in
brewing.  I have been diagnosed with a degenerative disk problem in my neck
which will be fixed soon through surgery.  My wife (SWMBO) insists that I
need to find a way to brew that won't require the lifting of 5 - 7 gallons
any longer.  I have been given the green light on getting a brewing system.
But I guess that my most important consideration is the lifting.  Can this
this be accomplished?  I am an all grain brewer and really love brewing and
am supported in this hobby (??) by my wife.  Private or public responses are
welcome and encouraged.  Who else could I turn to in a time of need but you?

Thanks - Walt
Southern New Jersey



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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:58:28 -0400
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: That Damned Gary Glass!

Brian crows from North of the 49th Parallel:
> Gary arranged to have some nice AHA clothing and books
> sent out to me, which we will use to reward out national
> brew champ and best beer entry brewer. And you know what?
> I'm not even a member of the AHA, and our competition isn't
> even an AHA sanctioned event.

That damned Gary Glass!  Who is HE to be giving away our dues money to
clothe a bunch of Howling Savages!  Howling Savages drunk on WINE, no less.
And BOOKS!  Books those same Howling Savages can't even read!  They use
some gawdfersaken tongue up there where they keep throwing too many vowels
into the words!  And vowels!  Too many vowels!  They keep throwing "A" onto
the end of every sentence, like they hadn't loaded up words like "color"
and "flavor" with enough vowels already!!!

That tears it!

Brian, I'd be honored to make out your AHA application form for you!


Mark in Kalamazoo




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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:42:44 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: kegerators

I'm getting set to move into my new abode next month and my
wife has granted me my wish--a real kegerator for
easy-to-access homebrew.  Yee haw.  So I've been looking
around for the right unit.  The most common manufacturers
are Summitt, Beverage Air, True, and Marvel.  Most of these
units are similar, except for price (I've listed them in
order of price).

Does anyone out there have experience with any of these
manufacturers and/or could give a recommendation?  I'm
planning to put a four-tap tower on the unit as well.  Fun!

- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:53:49 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com>
Subject: RE: Yes, it's about Sean and the AHA (sorry)

Hehehe,

Well said. Sean's undoubtedly young, possibly too 
young to buy beer wherever he's at. Apart from that, he 
seemingly suffers the effete impudence of adolescence. 
in addition, he's no erudite pinnacle of lucid verbiage but 
what the hay, his gibbering did give cause for a well 
deserved laugh on this end.

hic...

Now... back to my search for Star San locally so I can 
brew tomorrow for my single Tier RIMS is finally 
complete and gasp... functional & predicable

Photos coming when I can get them scanned.

Brew flag will be out tomorrow.

Urp...

Gary

Who just re-upped with the AHA for another year!

> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:00:02 -0500
> From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
> Subject: RE: Yes, it's about Sean and the AHA (sorry)
> 
> Paul Kensler writes:
> 
> > With all the witty banter flying around regarding the
> > "quit the AHA" thread, I'm dying for someone to come
> > back with "Jane, you ignorant slut". 
> > 
> 
> Paul, you ignorant, misguided slut! Sean had already called Mark
> blind, stupid, ignorant, fat, retarded, and in private, a coward and a
> jackoff. Near as I can figure, this probably exhausted Sean's
> vocabulary. Now you've gone and given him another word to use. What
> were you thinking? ;-)
> 
> Here are my thoughts on this issue, Sean. As Bill Wible points out, it
> is debatable whether the AHA should have suggested you approach
> businesses on their behalf. However, to extend that to the level of
> abuse you hurled at the AHA, and to malign the many members who see
> the benefits of this organization as rhetoric-swallowing simpletons
> was entirely uncalled for. I did not find anything the least bit
> constructive or credible in your rants. You call the AHA organization
> bloated, without offering any sort of proof of this claim other than
> your own "experience" with associations. You claim 7 months of brewing
> experience has caused you to outgrow Zymurgy (and I must credit Jim
> Bermingham for one of the funniest posts in a long time on that
> topic). See the difference there, Sean? Jim's post was funny, yours
> was just laughable. And in all your ranting, you offered no
> suggestions as to the kind of services that the "average homebrewer"
> (for whom you seem to have appointed yourself official spokesperson)
> would benefit from. 
<SNIP>Gary

Gary Smith

http://musician.dyndns.org

A mother takes twenty years to make a man of her boy, 
and another woman makes a fool of him in twenty 
minutes.

 - Robert Frost -




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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:17:57 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: The cursed Digest format

Jake Isaacs wrote:

> Just wondering what reasons you folks have for using this 
> mailing list 
> vs. the forums (hbd.org/forums).  I check both regularly, but 
> get a lot 
> more use out of the forums (especially since trolling has 
> been virtually 
> eliminated).  The forums get you more viewpoints much faster.

My reasons are simple: there's a lot of good information here, and there are
people here I like talking to (whether they like talking to me is
debatable). ;-) I also hang out in rec.crafts.brewing. I do like the faster
response time, much easier to get a good discussion going. That is one of
the inherent limitations of the Digest format. Sort of like the old days,
where people played chess by mail.
 
>  Plus you 
> can just stop reading a thread when it's no longer interesting to you 
> (personally I can't stand wading through this AHA defense vs. 
> pointless 
> bitching thread just to get other useful info).  

I don't know where this "wading" business comes from, Jake. It's not like
having to "wade through" the talking sections of porn tapes with the
fast-forward button. (No, I still don't have a DVD, just haven't found the
need for it, I guess). I find that a simple mouse click or two gets me
swiftly and easily through topics of little interest to me. Nobody finds
everything interesting. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Valuable learning is to be had here. And getting a good argument going once
in awhile is what keeps it fun and fresh, IMHO. But then again, I'm blind,
stupid and ignorant, so what the heck do I know? ;-)

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:10:43 -0400
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: CNN on alcopops


http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/07/17/cf.crossfire/index.html

(CNN) -- Consumer advocates say fruity malt beverages
known as "alcopops" are being marketed to millions of
teen-agers in television ads, while liquor industry
representatives say such complaints have no merit.

George Hacker of the Center for Science in the Public
Interest steps into the "Crossfire" with hosts James
Carville and Robert Novak to discuss the issue.

(excerpt)

NOVAK: I've got an answer.

HACKER: Sure. 

NOVAK: Prohibition. 



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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:56:18 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Brussels Hotels

Pete Czerpak asked,


"Another question, I'll be in Belgium in mid August to do the usual HBD
Belgium lambic tours.  Can anybody recommend some reasonable costing hotel
recommendations for someone not on business expense."

Well, if you are not a control freak, just take a chance.  When you get to
town, I assume it will be by train, get off at the Central train station and
go to the information area  (marked with an "i" sign). Ask about rooms. They
will know what is available at that moment, how to get there, what it will
cost, and what it is like.  They will even call and make the reservation for
you and tell you what bus number to take to get there.  I don't know if the
North (Nord) and/or South (Nuid) train stations have the "i" place.

Once we got there on a Friday at 4:00 PM.  The city was swamped with weekend
party people.  We took 2 rooms at a youth Hostel a short bus ride away.  If
we were to stay for more than one night I would have gone for something
better but this was great for one night. Only spent 5 hours in the rooms
anyway.

Just a simple alternative that works for me.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:13:01 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: How much CO2?

My very rough rule of thumb says that 1 gram of sugar produces just
under 0.5 gram of CO2.  (Fermentation of 1 glucose molecule produces 2
CO2 molecules and 2 ethanol molecules.  Ethanol is slightly more
massive than CO2.  A little bit of the fermentation mass turns into
yeast, but it's very little.) So, from the complete fermentation of
2400 grams of glucose, you'd get just under 1200 grams of CO2.

CO2 masses about 2 grams per liter at standard temperature and
pressure.  So 1200 grams of CO2 is about 600 liters.

Another way to look at this is by doing percentages.  If you ferment a
1% solution of sugar (10 grams per liter), you end up with a bit under
5 grams CO2 per liter.

Let's take Domenick's sample 12P (12% sugar, or 1.048) wort.  If it
ferments to 3P (1.012), then the "real attenuation" is approximately
60%, meaning that 7.2P of the sugar has been fermented out.  At 5
grams/liter/P, that means that the fermentation produces about 35
grams of CO2 per liter.  If it's a 20 liter batch, the total CO2
produced is 700 grams, or 350 liters.

=Spencer


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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:41:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: re: Water filter lifetime

Dana writes:
Should I really replace it after 6 months even though I havn't run anything 
close to 600 gals through it? Does the filter somehow degrade with time 
requiring the replacement or is the company just trying to get my money?

I think the reason they say to replace it is to avoid nasties from growing in 
the filter after time and making you sick. 
I've got an undersink 0.5 micron carbon filter that says the same thing, and 
waited about 10 months before replacing it. The water tasted fine, stability 
tests on wort made with this water (and one 50/50 mixed wort/filtered water) 
both came out okay, but better safe than sorry. After removing the filter, I 
cut it open to see if there were any visible build-ups or slime, and it looked 
good as new. Since these filters cost over $30, I'll probably replace them 
annually from now on. 

- --rama roberts
san francisco bay area



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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:02:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: Re: High FG in Strong Lager

In response to: 
>Now after 10 weeks, the gravity is only down to 1.026. I suspect that the
>140F rest was too low, and that the beta amylase wasn't active enough at
>that temp.

Jeff wrote:
I think that you are right.  I don't have a solution for fixing it 
other than to drink it.

If you want to lower the gravity, you could always toss in some amylase enzyme 
to get it going, if there was a good way to *stop* it later. That's what I did 
with a recent porter, unfortunately (I didn't know it would keep on chugging 
away- next time think *first* ;). Maybe campden tablets or heat would do the 
trick, but they seem like they would both have negative affects.

Jeff wrote:
George originally recommended 40C/60C/70C or 50C/60C/70C rests based 
on old German record, I believe, but I think that part of this is the 
simple mnemonic simplicity of the numbers.  My experience has led me 
away from this.

So now you use 30-45 minutes at 145-146F and 158-160F each instead, as a 
generic mashing schedule for most brews, or for a particular style like strong 
lagers? 

- --rama roberts
san francisco bay area



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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:14:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Beer Drinker <srm775 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Goose Island Clone

Does any one have a recipe for a
Goose Island clone? 



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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:40:49 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: High FG in Strong Lager

At 3:02 PM -0700 7/19/02, Rama Roberts wrote:
>So now you use 30-45 minutes at 145-146F and 158-160F each instead, as a
>generic mashing schedule for most brews, or for a particular style like strong
>lagers?

Definitely for strong beers that I want to be sure have full 
attenuation, but it's becoming my standard procedure for all lagers 
and some other styles.  I don't do it for English bitters and the 
like, but, for instance, I will probably do it (with a short protein 
rest first, perhaps) for the wit beer I brew Monday.

Briefly, if I previously did a 140/158 rest, I now do the new rests. 
I've become a fan of crisp lagers, even, or maybe especially, malty 
styles like Dunkels and Viennas.  I want them dry and malty.  These 
are not exclusive to one another.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:31:04 -0600
From: "Paul Gatza" <paul at aob.org>
Subject: Standards of Brewing and AHA Discounts

Hi everyone. Here is some news on a pre-publication discount. The latest
Brewers Publications book "Standards of Brewing" by Dr. Charles Bamforth
should be arriving in-house at the Association of Brewers by the end of
July. The subtitle of the book is "A Practical Approach to Consistency and
Excellence" and includes a forward by Ken Grossman of Sierra Nevada Brewing
Company. Standards of Brewing covers the principles and practices of brewery
quality so that brewers can establish procedures for producing consistent,
high quality beer. The primary market for this book is professional brewers.
Technical homebrewers should find relevant techniques to apply at the home
level. The book will also be marketed to brewing schools as a textbook.

Dr. Bamforth, who claims not to be the son of Dr. Michael Lewis, is on the
faculty of UC Davis, and an active member American Society of Brewing
Chemists project committees, as well as quite active in IBS and the Master
Brewers Association of the Americas. Standards of Brewing is available for a
30-percent discount to AHA and IBS members if ordered by August 15th.
Charlie Bamforth is one of the most respected names in the science part of
the beer world and Ray Daniels oversaw the technical review phase of this
project while wearing his hat as publisher of Brewers Publications, and I
believe this book will set the standard on quality for years to come. Call
Matt or Kendall toll-free at 888.822.6273 for more information or to place
an order.

There has been much traffic on the pub discount program. To clarify, the AHA
is not asking our liaisons or members to twist some arms to get pubs to sign
up. That job goes to staffer Mark Snyder so that each pub has correct and
consistent information on what the program is and how to execute it. We are
asking for recommendations of who we should prioritize to bring into the
program. If you know of a pub that would be a good fit, please let Mark know
at mailto:marks at aob.org. Mark reports that he signed up Buffalo Wild Wings
in Indianapolis yesterday to an IBS retailer membership and added to them to
the discount program. This represents the first multi-tap outlet without a
brewery affiliation to join the program (and I believe is our first IBS
"Retailer" member). Regarding the matter of "firing" a member, I do not
believe that it is proper to do so for dissent. We are fortunate to be able
to express different opinions in the U.S. and think about where the AHA
would (or would not) be today if brewers did not let us know what they
thought. If a member was attempting to use their membership to actively do
harm to the organization, I would look to the board of advisors for some
opinions in that case. Matt in membership service and I have had discussion
with Sean regarding his AHA membership and I believe the matter has been
resolved to the satisfaction of everyone involved.

Another clarification, when I discussed we were in a passive phase of adding
breweries until we worked the bugs out, that means that we are spending our
resources in touch with current participants to address concerns. One item
that is discussed with breweries that has been mentioned on this forum is
that we make it clear that it is the pubs responsibility to set up a
discount that is in compliance with the laws of that state. We are confident
that the information we provide to the pubs is generally working. There are
some internal training issues that we are continuing to address, but the
bugs-out phase was smoother than expected and it is time for staff to
aggressively approach new outlets to add. We are now prioritizing pubs that
we have strong established contacts with who are IBS members, then IBS
members who are recommended to us, then non-IBS members who are recommended
to us (with a membership pitch included), then other IBS members, and
finally non-IBS members with craft brews on tap.

The part of the program I am most concerned about is that we make it work
for the participating pubs by going into pubs and using our cards. If there
is an AHA member in a participating pub using the card every day, it will
stay on their radar screen and in their training. If they receive only one
or two visits a month, they may decide it is not worth the effort and that
they do not need to support homebrewers, because they do not see business
from the homebrewing community. Therefore, I ask that each of you take one
for the team and go into a participating pub, flash the card and keep this
program working.

Paul Gatza
Director--American Homebrewers Association
Director--Institute for Brewing Studies
Association of Brewers
736 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO 80302
ph: +1.303.447.0816 ext. 122
fax: +1.303.447.2825
www.beertown.org





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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:22:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Acetobacter $# at &%- Or - crying in my (lack of)  beer

Marc Hache had his 3rd batch in a row spoiled with
acetobacter.

Marc,

1. "Swishing" is likely not providing enough contact
time, especially in a plastic bucket.

2. Test strips are available to test the Iodophor
solution (test the mixed solution, not the Iodophor
itself).

3. Ditch the bucket and use a glass carboy for your
primary fermenter. Plastic buckets can have bug
colonies residing in minute scratches, and once
infected can be quite difficult (if not impossible) to
sanitize. 

4. You suspect your plastic primary (and are probably
correct, due to #3), but you also don't mention
sanitizing your kegs, just cleaning with TSP and
rinsing with hot water.  Kegs should be sanitized, as
well, including pumping sanitizer out through dip
tube.

Kent Fletcher
brewing in So Cal




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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 20:53:39 -0500
From: blutick at juno.com
Subject: Re: Agave

>anyone played around with those Agave nectars that St. Pat's
>sells?

I assisted the Red River Brewers in making an agave/mesquite honey mead
for this year's AHA National Convention. It used a bit over 50% agave
nectar. It was a rush job, we only had about four months to make it, but
tasted pretty darned good for such a young mead when we bottled it. 

Many thanks to St. Pat's for donating the ingredients for this mead. 

Jim Layton
Howe, TX


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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:08:17 -0700
From: Rick Lassabe <bayrat at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Want Recipe

 Does anyone have what they think is a clone recipe, (all grain, single
temperature  infusion if possible), for Big Sky Brewing's "Moose Drool"?

The only information  I got from the brewery was that this beer finishes

somewhere around 5.0 % alcohol content.

Rick Lassabe
Bayrat's "Bayou Degradable Brewery"





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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 20:21:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: counter pressure bottle filler

Mauricio Wagner asked:

"I would like to receive some help from experienced
users in order to choose
the best design. On the net I found a couple of
schematics and I would like
to know wich one to use (Pitchard's or... ?) or to
receive info about web
sites were I can find more schematics."

Mauricio,
Last year I built a CP filler along the lines of the
design illustrated by Marty Tippin:

http://hbd.org/mtippin/cpfiller.html

I made a couple of substitutions that make it a little
more user-friendly.  In place of the ball valve for
the CO2 in, I connected a pneumatic blowgun (the kind
used in tire inflators). It is connected backwards,
that is the normal inlet of the blowgun is connected
to the filler's upper tee fitting with a 1/4" close
nipple. In normal outlet side of the blowgun (threaded
1/8" NPT female) I installed a fitting (1/8" male pipe
x 1/4" flare) to enable to make quick CO2 connection -
I just remove the ball-lock quick connect from the
flare fitted CO2 line. For the pressure relief valve I
substituted a 1/4" drain cock, I find it easier to use
than a needle valve.

Learning how to use the filler is at least as
important as how to build it. The operating
instructions on the pages linked to above are quite
detailed and will serve you well.  Advice: I to my CP
filling in the kitchen sink, with the bottle down in
the basin. This minimizes the cleanup when I screw up
and spray the AO (area of operation) with beer!
Hope that helps, good luck!

Kent Fletcher
brewing in So Cal





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