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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  MaltoDextrin: How does it work? ("Scott Morgan")
  Brewing Logistics and 20 Gallon Batches (Alan McKay)
  Re: Sparging (Swelling grain bed) ("Larry Bristol")
  Outside Hookup ("Pete Calinski")
  Enzyme Lifetime and mashing considerations ("Bill Frazier")
  Carlsberg ("Bill Frazier")
  It catches up with you. ("Paul McFarland")
  Free Update for How To Brew book (John Palmer)
  RE:  How large all grain batches? (Andrew Nix)
  Re: CACA results (Petr Otahal)


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Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:28:30 +1000
From: "Scott Morgan" <scotty at onlinebrewing.com>
Subject: MaltoDextrin: How does it work?


Hi all, I am a beginning homebrewer , and I have heard that Maltodextron
added
to the kit gives extra body, mouth feel, and a better head.

Also, some people use dextrose for priming, others reckon that household
sugar is the best. What do the real brewers say?
> Mike Williams,
> New Zealand.

There's an easy and simple answer here Mike. Two magic word,

MORE MALT.

Forget the sugars, if you want body, mouth feel and head then Malt is the
only way to go.

Look up Luke Nicholford for supplies help.

Scotty


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Ocean Brewing Co.

Make Fresh Beer. Enjoy Fresh Beer.

www.onlinebrewing.com

sales at onlinebrewing.com

ABN# 56 738 661 163

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Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 08:45:05 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: Brewing Logistics and 20 Gallon Batches

Victor has some questions about going all-grain.


> The thought being I will be spending the same amount 
> of time on the same volume of beer if I brew a
> larger batch (i.e. instead of brewing 3 extract 5 gal 
> batches, brew 1 large all-grain).

Yup, good logic!  The beauty is that once you are brewing allgrain,
you can brew any amount of beer you want and it takes about the
same amount of time.

> If I wanted to brew a 20 gallon batch for example, does the
> logistics of handling that much grain and water etc. 
> make it an exercise in futility?

I've never brewed 20 gallons, but I do manage to brew 15 gallons
with a 10 gallon system by doing high-gravity brews and then
diluting it.  I tried this for the first time during big-brew
(photos at http://www.bodensatz.com/gallery/) and it worked
so well I do it all the time now!

> Any experienced all-grainers have equipment advice for the 
> new guy? What you would do different a second time around, 

Unless you will always have someone else brewing with you, you
are going to need a pump when making this amount of beer.  I guess
if you have a 3 tier brewing structure you could use gravity 
instead of a pump, too.  My equipment is as follows :
 - 40 litre / 10 gallon Gott / Rubbermaid
 - 45 litre SS pot
 - 65 litre (17 US gal) Alu pot

Sometimes I mash in the gott and use the SS pot to hold my
sparge water, and sometimes I do it the other way around.  Though
usually I mash in the pot because I like to be able to directly
fire it for mashouts.  The old trick of adding boiling water to
get to mashout does not work when brewing 15 gal in a 10 gal
system because you are already pushing the limits of volume.

For my 45 litre SS pot I made a hull out of blue foam camping
pads (photos at URL above) for times when I mash in the pot but
do not want to hang over it fussing with the burner to keep it
at a constant temp.  I pick the pot up off the burner and put
it into the hull, and then let it set.  I lose less than 1F
over 90 minutes with this.  Fill the pot with ice when having
a party and it makes a great beer cooler, too!  In one case
my beer was still ice cold 48 hours later!!!

Mash water gets heated directly in the 45 litre pot.  I mashin,
put the pot in the hull, and then put on the 65 litre pot to
start heating up sparge water.  I heat it to about 190F and
then transfer to the gott to hold it til runoff.  This is a bit
of juggling I have to do since I only have 1 burner.  Having
more than 1 would be nice, and I'll probably get one next
summer I suppose.

> Are there places that sell large pots and such for just 
> such an at home set-up?

morebeer.com has a lot of nice stuff, and there are a few other
places as well.  You can buy large pots at a kitchen supply store.
Also if you have a 'little italy' it's a good place to go to get
brewing hardware, usually.  The local Italian hardware store here
in Ottawa has a better selection of beer and wine hardware than
most brewing stores you will ever be in.  

That's about it for now.  Let me know if you have any specific
questions about any of this.

cheers,
 -Alan


- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site (tm)


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Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 09:03:38 -0500
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: Sparging (Swelling grain bed)

On Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:25:52 -0500, "Partner" <Partner at Netdirect.net>
wrote:

> And what I've noticed on the last 3 batches is...... that during the 
> Sparge.  My grain bed is swelling.

Well, I am glad to see that I am not the only one that has experienced
this phenomenum!  I have been mashing for years and never had this
happen until recently, when (strangely enough) just like for you, it
occurred in 3 consecutive batches!  I think I have the solution for
you, but will be quick to confess that everything herein is purely
anecdotal.

Something else had happened during those 3 batches.  My extract
efficiency plummeted.  Imagine if you normally got about 75% efficiency
and it suddenly dropped to 50%.  Obviously, something had changed! 
Fortunately, it was not difficult for me to identify that change.

Instead of having my grains crushed at the LHBS, I had acquired a grain
mill and was crushing them myself.  In adjusting the mill, I had
worried so much about over-crushing (and all the problems inherent with
that) that I was UNDER-crushing the grains.  This was clearly the cause
of the drop in efficiency, and (here is the anecdotal part) I concluded
that this was also the cause of the swelling grain bed!

I reason it this way.  By significantly under-crushing, there were a
large number of kernels that had not been cracked open at all.  These
kernels contributed nothing to the extract, just sitting there in the
grain bed.  But when the temperature was raised (for mash out and
sparging), I suspect that they started swelling, probably absorbing
more water at the higher temperature.  Perhaps they were beginning to
cook or something.

I do not know the exact mechanism that caused the swelling, but the
good news is that when I adjusted the mill to obtain a proper crush,
the grain bed no longer swells up during mash out and sparging.  So I
would suggest you look for a change in the crush of your grains.

> While I'm sparging I think..( there I go thinking again) Why am I ramping 
> up for a Mashout?    When it boils. it's going to denature any emy-zines.....
> What I look for during the mash is to maximize fermentables....

I like to do a mash out because it supposedly reduces the viscosity of
the sugars, allowing more of it to be extracted during the sparge. 
There was a discussion about this here in the HBD a few weeks ago.  I
had also heard that this was done to "fix" the relative ratio of
fermentables to dextrines by denaturing the enzymes.  Based on recent
information here in the HDB, this would seem to be questionable,
although I think the mechanism is still relevant even if the exact
reason is not.

To maximize fermentables, use the common logic we have known for years.
 Higher temperatures mean more dextrines, so mash at about 148-150F. 
Stiffer mashes mean slightly more dextrines, so keep the mash loose
(1.25qts or more per pound).  And keep and eye on that pH!


Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX   AR=[1093.6,223.2]
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:10:13 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Outside Hookup

Marc,

I don't know for sure about a quick disconnect but I would think it is OK
because my neighbor has an outside gas grill.  The gas company installed it.
It has no shutoff (that he knows about).  Stays on 24/7/52, i.e. year
around.

This is New York state where there is a law against everything and the
government takes care of you, womb to tomb, or at least they get themselves
elected promising such.

BTW, I tried to respond to you directly but the message was refused.  I got:

********************************************************************
This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason:

Your message was not delivered because the return address was refused.

The return address was '<pjcalinski at adelphia.net>'
********************************************************************


Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************




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Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:09:22 -0500
From: "Bill Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Enzyme Lifetime and mashing considerations

I second Dave Burleys comment "Steve Alexander's excellent comments on
enzyme lifetimes".
Funny this should come up at this time.  After not doing a mash-out step in
over ten years of all-grain brewing I decided to do so last batch.  The
reason...it usually takes 45 minutes for my sparge step and then another
half hour or so to reach boiling temperatures.  I thought I might add a bit
more malt note (or sweetness) to my British Bitter by stopping enzyme
activity after the 60 minutes.   I accomplished mash-out temperature of 170F
by adding two gallons boiling brewing water to the mash which was resting at
156F.  Stirred it up and let it set 30 minutes before starting the sparge.
Time will tell if this mash-out beer has improved flavor but I believe the
mash-out did cause a giant PITA stuck sparge.

My question - Is mash-out futile given Steve's information on enzyme
activity at hight temps?

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas



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Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:23:50 -0500
From: "Bill Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Carlsberg

I revisited one of my favorite commercial beers this week...Carlsberg.  This
Dannish lager has a wonderful hop flavor and aroma.  The beer we get here in
the Kansas City area is brewed and bottled in Toronto at Labatt "under the
supervision of Carlsberg".  Regardless of where it's made it's a great beer.

Now some might ask why is he drinking commercial lager in the middle of
summer in KC?   Doesn't he realize it will be hot and lager will be
required?  Well, I've had a couple of failures which left me beerless for
these very hot summer months.  Both a CAP and a PU Pils clone came out of
two months lagering with a pasty-muddled flavor and hop bite (might be from
the malt or hops - tried a new source?).  Never the less my beer shortage
brought me back to some very good commercial lagers including Carlsberg.

Does anyone have a clue as to what hop(s) are used in Carlsberg.  Once I
solve my lager flavor problem I'd like to try to clone this great
Dannish/Canadian beer.  TIA.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas



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Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:42:09 -0500
From: "Paul McFarland" <Hawkfueler at neb.rr.com>
Subject: It catches up with you.

Darn,

After 7 years of brewing Murphy finally caught up with me.
I had a pale ale get infected and had to dump the whole batch down the
drain.
Oh my god the smell...............


Oh well, at least I have some red to drink.

My Nebraska Red recipe (It's in the archives) has evolved into an Atomic
Red,
(hence it's impact).  (Drink three and you're wasted........).

But my newest try is pretty good.  Tried an all grain brown ale, and it came
out a bit light in color, (for a brown), still mighty good stuff.
I guess I will call it a red also.................GRIN.

One new thing I have tried recently is using finings to reduce chill haze,
using Divergan F in the secondary, it's seems to have reduced, but not
eliminated chill haze in my ales. (The last three batches).

I don't know if this is a "New" formulation or it is the same stuff with a
new name, it is commonly called "polyclar".

Paul


p.s.  I don't have any idea how far I am from Jeff R.  and I don't have my
GPS handy, so I will just say, Keep posting Jeff, I read everything you
post............

(BREW NAKED, Preferably with Female company)..............






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Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 22:23:09 -0700
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com>
Subject: Free Update for How To Brew book

Hi Everyone,
Just wanted to let everyone know that a free update is available for 
everyone who purchased the first printing of How To Brew in the past 
year. (Which is everyone who currently has a copy). The update is a 132K 
pdf file that contains typo fixes, clarifications and some additional 
information that was incorporated into the second printing of How To 
Brew this summer. The update is available at my website, although it is 
not linked (at the moment).
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/HTB_update.pdf

Good Brewing,
John Palmer
john at howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing



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Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 17:34:26 -0400
From: Andrew Nix <anix at vt.edu>
Subject: RE:  How large all grain batches?

In response to Victor Franklin's questions about converting to all-grain 
and batch size, Scott Bridges writes:

Here's my rig:  3 15.5g sankey kegs serving as hot liquor tank, mash tun and
boil kettle.  2 propane cookers, 2 magnetic drive pumps.  Since I don't get
to devote a day to brewing very often, what I sometimes do is to make 2
10-12g batches back-to-back.  You can make some economies of time, by
starting batch #2 while batch #1 is still in process.  You will definitely
be busy for 6-7 hours, but you can get your 20g that way.  It took me a
while to gather all this equipment, so you may want to phase your way into
this.

While I think that Scott's response to Victor is full of useful info which 
I concur with, I have to ask Scott, can you REALLY do two 10 gallon batches 
back-to-back in 6-7 hours?  I typically start my brew day at 7 AM heating 
sparge water then pumping to my HLT, then heating mash water and 
mashing-in.  Even if I was mashing another batch while boiling batch #1, I 
would have to wait till batch #1 was cooled before sparging batch #2, which 
I think is the same with your system?  If I did two batches back-to-back, 
which I have never attempted but sounds interesting to try, I think I could 
expect a good 12 hour brew day.

If you have some insight into achieving this kind of time, let me know how!!

Drewmeister
Andrew Nix
Department of Mechanical Engineering
Virginia Tech
anix at vt.edu
http://www.vt.edu:10021/A/anix

Apparent Rennerian [400.6, 152]



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Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:53:39 +1000
From: Petr Otahal <potahal at utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: CACA results

>From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
>Subject: CACA results
>
>I brewed a CACA about a month ago, and thought I'd share the results. The 
>recipe I used was more or less what Jeff Renner suggested here a couple
months 
>back, but using Maris Otter as the base, and 24 oz of corn meal. The yeast
used 
>was Windsor, which I think was responsible for a fairly high FG of about
1.018 
>(used Jeff's mash schedule, a large yeast starter, and well aerated wort). 

I think your high FG problem is with the Marris Otter, not necessarily the
yeast.  This malt is not really suitable for adjunct brewing and has very
low levels of beta-amylase (BA).  There was a discussion on the Australian
Craftbrewing digest on Marris Otter use in June year .  Our malt guru here
in Oz, Wes Smith, recommended that Marris Otter be carefully infused,
mashed around 65C, and not exposed to high temperatures during mash-in, so
that as much BA survives the mash-in process.  He also recommended a fairly
high liquid to grist ratio of 3.5 L/kg, to make a more attenuable beer.

See the following post:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CraftBrewing/message/2426

Im sure Jeff would recommend you use domestic pale/lager malt.

Hope this helps
Cheers
Petr
Hobart, Tas, Australia



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