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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Brewpubs in Sydney (Brew King)
  MaltoDextrin: How does it work? ("Michael Williams")
  runoff rate (leavitdg)
  hot peppers ("Micah Millspaw")
  How large all grain batches? ("Bridges, Scott")
  Fat Tire Clone (All Grain) ("Milone, Gilbert")
  Enzyme Lifetime and mashing considerations ("Dave Burley")
  bitter taste and alu (Alan McKay)
  building a keg fridge under the counter (Alan McKay)
  re: American Amber Ale (Paul Kensler)
  Re: bitter taste/aftertaste (Jeff Renner)
  re: bitter taste / aftertaste (Paul Kensler)
  Re: Hot Peppers (Jeff Renner)
  Large all grain brewing (LJ Vitt)
  yes...another question about natural gas conversions (Marc Sedam)
  Re: Liquid level control ("Kent Fletcher")
  re: bitter taste/aftertaste (Rama Roberts)
  Re:  American Amber Ale (Peter Torgrimson)
  Stuck Fermentation (Laaglander?) (Wesner Reing)
  Re:  Liquid Level Control (Peter Torgrimson)
  Sparging ("Partner")


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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 22:31:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brew King <brewking100 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Brewpubs in Sydney

Hi all,

I'm going to be in Sydney/Gosford next weekend to see
my beloved Beavers pay BBall against the Sydney Kings.
 I'm still upset they're not coming to Melbourne.

Haven't been to Sydney for a couple of years, and
They've closed down most of the Brewpubs in Sydney
(except, of course the Lord Nelson's...Bulls Blood,
yumm).

Can anyone point out any new brewpubs that have opened
up lately, and where they're located.

Thanks for that.


Regards,

Dave



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Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:38:53 +1200
From: "Michael Williams" <miwi at i4free.co.nz>
Subject: MaltoDextrin: How does it work?

Hi all, I am a beginning homebrewer , and I have heard that Maltodextron added
to the kit gives extra body, mouth feel, and a better head. Trouble is, there
are many different types of maltodexrtin, and nobody that sells it here seems to
know how the sugars work with beer in a way that I can understand. How do the
sugars work, which is the right one to use, and when would you use fructose if
ever? Also, some people use dextrose for priming, others reckon that household
sugar is the best. What do the real brewers say?
> Mike Williams,
> New Zealand.




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Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 06:18:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: runoff rate

For those just getting into all-grain: don't rush the runoff rate!

Thanks to the many who responded to my recent post, I slowed the collection
of about 7 gallons from 30 minutes to 60,....and the difference in 
efficiency was substantial.  At 30 minutes my efficiency had dropped to
about 60%!...and when slowing the runoff to 60 minutes, which I just did 
yesterday, the efficiency (which was computed using ProMash) was back
up to about 70%....which is , to me, ok.

I appreciate all those who responded to my question....and just for the
challenge, am going to look at other ways of effecting the efficiency
(pH, temp, ....?).

Happy Brewing!
 .Darrell


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Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 06:51:46 -0500
From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at silganmfg.com>
Subject: hot peppers

I have made a fair number of 'hot' pepper beers. If you are
putting them into the bottle, slice the pepper lengthwise and just
put a half in each bottle. IMHO fresh jalapenos are the best for
bottle
use as they will yeild a nice bouquet in the finished beer. Chipotles
in the bottle are good also, they add some smokiness to the hot, 
making for a very interesting beer.

Micah Millspaw - brewer at large

>Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:31:35 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Wesner Reing <wreing at lynx.dac.neu.edu>
>Subject: Hot Peppers.

>I'm attempting the Dry Heat Chili Ale form the July-Aug Brew Your Own.

>And I have a question about putting peppers in the bottle.  Since The
>majority of the capsaicin is contained in the seeds, should I put a
small
>slit in the peppers first to make sure that my beer is as hot as
possible
>or will the "heat" leach out through the pepper anyway?  Has anyone
brewed
>a beer like this?  Thanks for your help.

>Wes
>Brookline, MA


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Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:04:55 -0400 
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: How large all grain batches?


Victor Franklin asks:

>I am going to be switching over to all-grain soon. I know the process takes
>more time so I wanted to brew larger batches.  The thought being I will be
>spending the same amount of time on the same volume of beer if I brew a
>larger batch (i.e. instead of brewing 3 extract 5 gal batches, brew 1 large
>all-grain).
>However, I am not sure how large is too large. How much can one reasonably
>brew at one time? I already have a good propane cooker. But I haven't
>purchased any of the additional equipment yet and wanted to make sure I got
>the right stuff. If I wanted to brew a 20 gallon batch for example, does
the
>logistics of handling that much grain and water etc. make it an exercise in
>futility?

Been a while since I posted, so I thought I'd respond on this one....

Victor, there are lots of options here.  It depends somewhat on how much
trouble and expense you want to go to.  20 gallons is still doable but I
think it gets you into another level of expense.  What you'll find is the
investment required goes up as the size/capacity of your equipment grows.
Of course, you can also scrounge around for used or discarded restaurant
equipment and that will obviously cut your costs.  

What a lot of people have done is go with a converted 15.5g sankey keg as
boiler and/or mash tun.  You can buy the keg already made from a company
that caters to the home brewing crowd, or you can scrounge the kegs and
convert them yourself.  You can do about a 12g batch in this considering
that you need to leave head space in the keg to prevent boilover and then
losses to evaporation and break material.  You'll definitely need your
propane cooker for this.  Making the batch size much bigger gets you into
more robust restaurant stuff.   

You can also use a cooler for the mash tun.  One of these is certainly large
enough to mash as much grain as you need, either the rectangular kind or a
round 10g Gott type.  

Also then you have to consider how to move all that liquid around.  You
won't be able to lift 20g of hot wort.  So, either you need a gravity set up
or pumps.  

Here's my rig:  3 15.5g sankey kegs serving as hot liquor tank, mash tun and
boil kettle.  2 propane cookers, 2 magnetic drive pumps.  Since I don't get
to devote a day to brewing very often, what I sometimes do is to make 2
10-12g batches back-to-back.  You can make some economies of time, by
starting batch #2 while batch #1 is still in process.  You will definitely
be busy for 6-7 hours, but you can get your 20g that way.  It took me a
while to gather all this equipment, so you may want to phase your way into
this.  

This is one data point.  I'm sure that you'll get other opinions.    Let me
know if I can provide more info.

Scott
Brewing occasionally in Columbia, SC











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Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:19:55 -0400 
From: "Milone, Gilbert" <gilbert.milone at uconn.edu>
Subject: Fat Tire Clone (All Grain)

Hello All,
	Does anyone have a clone of Fat Tire Amber ale? I had some while out
west, and would like to make a batch. I would really like to do it
all-grain. 
Thanks,
Gil Milone


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Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:41:34 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_BURLEY at CHARTER.NET>
Subject: Enzyme Lifetime and mashing considerations

Brewsters:

Steve Alexander's excellent comments on enzyme lifetimes failed to point out
that the majoity of the lifetime studies are done on bare enzymes and
solubilized starch not those complexed with a starch surface and whatever and
not in an actual mash.  Even those studies with grain present are often highly
diluted.  Lifetimes of enzymes in actual mashes are most often extended
substantially over the bare enzymes.

Also, these are usually half lives being reported and not "lifetimes", since
the enzymes disappear by a first order kinetic mechanism (like radiation or
cooling) , in most cases, which has a log Conc vs time characteristic and
never really goes to zero except in a practical sense.

Also, we talk of temperatures of activity and such for various enzymes, but
these are actually very broad ranges. Remember these same enzymes are active
at room temperature and below in providing nutrients to new plants in the seed
barley. It just takes longer.  Lower temperature mashing ( to make a highly
attenuable wort) can be done but it is not practical in the brewing world and
it can alter the protein profile which has been largely set at the maltster.

The malt itself is also of importance here in a practical sense in that the
cooler the roast out on the malt, the higher the total enzyme concentration
and the more enzymes active in the mash you will have at a higher temperature.
Brits ( who traditionally have a more highly toasted malt than the Germans or
the US) typically use 158F as their highest mash temperature.  The Germans
typically finish out a mash at 162F.

Point is, in most cases, longer and hotter than you might judge from enzyme
lifetime considerations  is usually OK in your mash schedule if your goal is a
higher level of dextrins and better efficiency.

Other real world characteristics such comments fail to take into account is
the wetting out of the starch granule which may take a substantial time in
compact, undamaged grain.  Gelatinization ( if you reach it before you lose
most of the enzyme) does level the playing field somewhat, but even with
gelatinization a low temperature hold of a few minutes is beneficial to
improving eficiency.

Don't be fooled by Charlie P's early books in which he says a 15 minute mash
is OK.

A starch iodine test on the mash liquid ( i.e. clear wort) in a mash only
deals with the <solubilized> starch and some of its higher degrades. This
liquid is what you want to measure at the end of the mash to be sure you don't
have a "blue" mash and starch in your wort ( leading to cloudy beer)  before
mashout.

Chartlie P in the early days interpreted a negative starch test on the liquid
at the end of 15 minutes as being at the end of the mashing period. Wrong!
Remember he was trained as an Unclear ( er, Nuclear) Engineer.

 If you really want to see how you are doing in getting the starch out of the
grain, include the mashed ( i.e. squished) grain partricles in your early
iodine tests and don't believe the wives' tail that husks give a positive
reaction.  If you get a dark blue/black reaction you still have starch in your
grains.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Fri,  9 Aug 2002 09:57:02 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: bitter taste and alu


Jeff,

It is unlikely this is caused by your alu pot, and you certainly do
not want to scrub it bright.  In fact, you want exactly the opposite
so that your wort never actually touches the aluminum.  I use an
alu pot with copper inside as well - no problems.

You do not mention much about your procedures.  It sounds like you
may be mashing, are you?  Or otherwise are you using grains?
You can get a very unpleasant bitterness from grain husks when
either your pH is too high (end of the sparge, typically) or
your temperature is too high (you don't boil your grains, do you,
or mash out at a very high temp?)

You'll have to tell us a bit more about how you make your beer
before we can help you much.  But one thing is almost certain -
the problem ain't from your pot.

cheers,
 -Alan

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site (tm)


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Date: Fri,  9 Aug 2002 10:06:17 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: building a keg fridge under the counter


Brewers,

The home renovations are coming along great, and my wife wants to
tackle the kitchen counters next.  We did some kitchen renovations
a few months ago and are still living out of boxes in that part
of the house as we try to decide what we want to do with it.  
Well, I got the OK to dedicate about 30 inches of counter space
(below the counter space) to a cold chamber for my kegs!!!
(She's a real keeper!!!)  This will leave me with a small
converted deep-freeze in the basement for lagering, and room
below the kitchen counter for 4 to 6 kegs (haven't measured
exactly yet)

I have a small bar fridge that I hope to rip the coils and motor
out of to drive this thing, and plan to insulate all around with
2 inches of blue foundation styrofoam.  My current converted 
deepfreeze has some serious humidity problems, and I'm wondering
if I am going to have those same problems with my homemade
space.

Is humidity going to be an issue for me?
If so, what can I do about it?
Is there a good website out there that I should be reading?
Is there anything else I should be doing besides the blue foam?
Like maybe vapour barrier or something (my understanding is that
the foam is itself a vapour barrier)
Should I be calling a cooling technician?
If so, how much is that going to cost me?

cheers,
 -Alan

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site (tm)


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Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 07:21:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: American Amber Ale

Steve Jones notes in HBD 4010 that the BJCP style
guidelines for the American Amber Ale differ from my
description in HBD 4009, and was thoughtful enough to
post the BJCP guidelines.

To quote Homer Simpson:  &#34;Well excuse me doctor
(BJCP), but I think I know a little something about
medicine (beer).&#34;

This illustrates the differing of opinions that I
alluded to in my post.  Lots of brewers have
_informed_ opinions about the style that differ
widely, leading to confusion and the inevitable
question: &#34;what the heck is an American Amber Ale
anyway?&#34;.  In my opinion, the BJCP guidelines are
part of the problem.

The BJCP guidelines for AAA can be summed up as
follows:
&#34;Category 6B, American Amber Ale:  See 6A,
American Pale Ale.  SRM 11 - 18&#34;

Hm.  So if I add some food coloring to my Sierra
Nevada Pale Ale clone, its an American Amber Ale?  Not
very interesting, and certainly not enough of a
difference to justify its own category.  Isn't that
the sort of deceptive &#34;brewing&#34; practices that
us homebrewers rail against and accuse the
&#34;mega&#34; brewpub chains of being guilty of?  

Yes, there are some differences in the guidelines: 
Diacetyl &#34;can&#34; be higher.  &#34;Some&#34;
caramel flavor or aroma &#34;may&#34; be present.  The
malt / hop balance &#34;may&#34; move more towards
malt.  It seems as though category 6B was created to
protect the pure bloodlines of category 6A (Sierra
Nevada clone) and create a catch-all subcategory for
anything that is simply NOT a Pale Ale, than to create
guidelines for a style that stands on its own.

Again, Mendocino's Red Tail Ale is a fine beer so I'm
not talking &#34;good&#34; vs &#34;bad&#34; beer - but
I don't know that, if given one blindfolded, I would
be able to tell that it was an Amber, and not a Pale
ale.  Such a beer shouldn't (in my opinion) be the
defining beer for the style.

Anyone who has tasted Full Sail Amber, or Anderson
Valley's Boont Amber will know without a doubt that
they are tasting something clearly separate from a
Pale Ale.  Blindfolded, with hayfever, after having
eaten lox and onions, in a room full of smokers, you
won't mistake these beers for an APA.  In my opinion,
these beers and ones like them should be the
&#34;center&#34; of the style guidelines and not the
fringe.  Yes, they are clearly hopped with US
varieties.  Yes, they are bitter.  But they are first
and foremost malty, caramelly, toasty, etc. and that
is what you take away from the experience.

At any rate, any BJCP judge worth his or her salt
knows that you have to judge a competition entry by
style and not by taste, and the current guidelines are
certainly clear enough on how an AAA entry should be
judged.  However, a better understanding of what makes
this style of beer unique will lead to more brewers
making interesting and distinct American Amber Ales.  

The BJCP guidelines serve a single purpose - to give
us a target against which homebrew competition entries
should be judged.  The guidelines are created and
occasionally updated to reflect the current brewing
practices of homebrewers.  If as a whole we're making
more distinct Amber Ales, then the BJCP guidelines
must follow suit - perhaps only after some motivated
and well-worded complaints to the BJCP board, but it
must happen.



Cheers!
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 10:21:51 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: bitter taste/aftertaste

"Jeffrey McPike" <n9cqs at insightbb.com> writes:

>I have brewed for several years, and have recently had three batches that
>had a strong bitterness to them.  It isn't exactly a hop bitterness, and it
>is worse in the aftertaste than while drinking.
><snip>
>Could my beer be picking up a taste from the aluminum?
>
>Do I need to scrub the aluminum clean between brewings?<ssnip>
>Could the aluminum be reacting with the copper chiller?

My sympathies.  That can be a hard problem to track down.

I have an aluminum pot (actually, three) and a copper immersion 
chiller, and no bitterness problem, so I don't think it's that.

First, don't clean the aluminum down to bright metal.  I just clean 
the gunk off with a nylon scrubber, and use a powdered cleaner (like 
PBW) every once in a while.

Some years ago, before I brewed in aluminum, I had a similar problem, 
and so did one of the other members of our local club that I compared 
notes with.  It was in the back of the throat - a kind of harshness. 
We finally concluded that it might have been oxidation, although I 
can't remember why.  I think oxidation can cause that kind of 
harshness.  At any rate, by being scrupulous about splashing (at the 
time, I transferred the mash from a pot to a Zapap), I got rid of it.

It may be something else (others may have ideas), but try that.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 07:35:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: bitter taste / aftertaste

Jeff,
I don't think that the aluminum pot is the source of
your troubles.  I've got an aluminum kettle that
serves every purpose depending on what I'm brewing
that day - mash tun, hot liquor tank, boiling kettle -
and I can't say that I've ever experienced any similar
problem even when brewing pale, delicate styles.  I
also use copper and brass parts in conjunction with
the aluminum kettle (wort chillers, manifolds,
connectors, etc.).

Studies have shown that aluminum is non-reactive in
brewing conditions.  Aluminum was once widely used in
Europe for brewing, but WWII demands and modern
cleaning solutions (which erode aluminum) have largely
done away with its use.  Current studies also have
cast doubt on the supposed relationship between
Aluminum and Alzheimers.

As for care, definitely do NOT scrub the Aluminum
shiny bright - unlike stainless steel where the oxide
layer is shiny and reflective, aluminum's oxide layer
is dark, dull, and usually gray or brown.  You want
that layer there!  Just use enough elbow grease to
remove any solid material that clings to the surface,
but don't scrub the oxide layer off.

As for what is causing your bitterness...  has
anything at all changed recently?  Did you move to a
different area (different brewing water)?  Local water
supplies often vary during the course of a year -
perhaps you've experienced more or less rainfall than
usual lately?  Changes in pH or sulfate could alter
hop bitterness.  Are you using different hops?  Either
different crop year, different form (whole / pellets),
or different variety?  Did you switch to or from hop
bags, or a different kind of hop bag?  Could your
method of computing IBU's have changed?

I think the cause of your bitterness is tied to a
change in your ingredients or process, not to
infection or the aluminum brew pot.


I hope this helps,
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 10:38:10 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Hot Peppers

Wes Reing <wreing at lynx.dac.neu.edu> of Brookline, MA writes:

>I'm attempting the Dry Heat Chili Ale form the July-Aug Brew Your Own.
>And I have a question about putting peppers in the bottle.  Since The
>majority of the capsaicin is contained in the seeds <snip>

Actually, the majority of capsaicin is in the membrane, or placenta, 
surrounding the seeds.  According to the Whole Chile Pepper Book 
(Dave DeWitt and Nancy Gerlach, Little brown and Co, 1990), p. 238:

"The heat source of chile peppers, capsaicin, is produced by glands 
at the junction of the placenta and the pod wall.  The capsaicin 
spreads unevenly throughout the inside of the pod and is concentrated 
mostly in the placental tissue.  The seeds are not sources of heat, 
as commonly believed.  However, because of their proximity to the 
placenta, the seeds do occasionally absorb capsaicin through the 
processing procedure.  For every hundred parts of capsaicin in the 
placental tissue, there are six parts in the rest of the fruit tissue 
and four parts in the seeds."

I think that the pepper flavor (as opposed to the heat) is important, 
too, in  a chile beer.  I think that comes from the flesh.  Splitting 
the pepper may increase that flavor or may not, I don't know, but I 
think it would increase the heat.

Hope this helps.

Jeff (25 years out of the classroom and still the science teacher)
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:32:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Large all grain brewing


In HBD#4011, Victor asked about brewing 20 gallon batches.

I argue that you can make larger batches using less than
doubling your time, but it is not as fast as a 5 gallon 
batch.

I sometimes do 10 gallon batches instead of 5.
I think it takes me about 2 hours longer than 5 gallons.
But that is much less than doubling the time it takes.

These steps take longer:
Milling
heating water before mash in
mash in
temp changes of the mash IF you are doing any.
heating sparge water - OK this overlaps with the mash.
sparging
chilling
racking - not on brew day.

Converted keg systems do well for 10 gallon batches.
However, 20 gallons, you either need a larger setup,
or brew 2 beers with the converted keg.

I know one brewer with a 3 tier system that frequently
does 3 - 7 gallon batches in the same day.
When the boil starts on the first batch, he starts another
mash.  He has managed 4 batches in the same day.

I know someone else with a 40 gallon system.  He always 
brews the same beer and has multiple brewers sharing the 
batch.

There is a potential disadvantage to 20 gallon batches:
20 gallons of the same beer instead of 4 different 5 gal 
batches. That may not be a disadvantage to you.
If there is a problem with the beer, you have a lot of it.

I suggest becoming an experienced all grain brewer BEFORE 
making such large batches.  I don't intend to discourage 
you from making 20 gallon batches.
My first all grain batches were not as good as my partial
mashes I was doing before.  So, I'm glad I gained some 
experience before going to 10 gal.

Due to my system limits, I will only do 10 gallon batches
if these are true:
Grain bill not over 20 lbs - lauter tun limit
Not decoction mash
fermentation space is easy to meet - I have limited space 
    for cold fermentation - lager, Kolsch, 
weather is good for outdoor boiling.



=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:57:50 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: yes...another question about natural gas conversions

I am on the verge of finally moving into my very first home
and feeling particularly grown up right now.  The beautiful
part is that this house has a "nanny suite" complete with
kitchen and bathroom.  This has been christened "The
Brewery" and so it shall begin.  Now I can make some of
Jeff's pretzels w/o mucking about the main kitchen.

So, this place has a natural gas hookup.  I'm very pleased.
But since The Brewery is a totally finished space I'm likely
going to still brew outside.  I'm prepared to build a stand
to set this stuff up right with permanent gas lines, a la
the More Beer setups.
So I went to Home Despot to look at what kinds of gas
apparati were available.  One intriguing piece was a 20ft
natural gas tube with quick disconnects.  This got me
thinking...which is always dangerous.  In this case that
could well be a literal statement.

I know I can drill out the holes in my two propane burners
to accommodate natural gas.  This is a good thing.  But
wouldn't it be great if I could have the piping to the
burners permanent, but have a QD natural gas hookup from the
gas line to the brewing system which I could attach only
during brew days.  Since I'd be brewing outside, I figured
that the hookup from the gas line (which is conveniently
right outside the brewery) could be outside as well.

I know nothing about gas piping or hookups or anything like
that.  Does anyone out there think it's possible to have a
outside QD hookup to the house's gas setup that I could, in
essence, tap into whenever I need to brew?  Would the gas
company let me do this if I put in a shutoff valve?  Is
there a safety issue?  Well...there's always a safety issue
dealing with gas lines, but if anyone could outline the
specific issue that would be great.

Cheers!
Marc

- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:33:40 -0700
From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher at socal.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Liquid level control

Tony Barnsley asked:

> I run off my sweet wort from the mash tun into an under back (Converted
> Corny) and then pump it to the boiler. What I would like to be able to do
> is to switch the speed of the pump to different levels depending on the
> liquid level in the underback. The pump speed is currently controlled by a
>power regulator and depending on the setting of the variable resistor
depends > on the pumps speed.

Tony,
You must have heard this before, but here goes:  You are going to destroy
your pump motor.   Small pumps of the type commonly used by homebrewers are
designed to be run at full speed only.  That is to say,
they use inexpensive motors with relatively lightly insulated windings which
are suscepatable to overheating.   Using resistor circuits leads to
overheating of motor windings due to both lower voltage and lower cooling
(the motor fan does not move enough air when it's turning at lower rpm).  So
even if you used a triac or quadrac circuit to control motor speed by
varying the duty cycle instead of voltage, the lower fan speed still results
in overheated windings.

> With both Floats open I would like the pump to run at a speed that enables
> the underback to continue filling (R1)
> With the Lower Float Closed the Pump runs faster, probably just about
> keeping up with the run off from the mash tun or just a bit less (R2)
> With Both floats Closed the pump runs much faster and empties the
> underback UNTIL the Lower Float Opens (R3)

Remember the KISS principle. ;)  Here's a couple a simpler route:
Install a solenoid valve in the pump outlet side of the piping, wired to a
relay with a holding circuit controlled by two float switches.  When the
wort rises it closes FS1 first, then FS2.  When FS2 closes, it energizes the
coil of double pole single throw relay R1.  Pole 1 activates the solenoid
valve, Pole 2 connects through FS1 to the coil of R1.  Thus, closing the
higher FS2 switch activates the realy, opening the solenoid valve, and the
holding circuit keeps the relay and solenoid valve energized until the lower
FS1 opens, deactivating both the circuit until the level again closes FS2.
Pump runs at full speed - no strain, no overheating.  You can add a normally
open momentary switch to override the float switches and pump the down back
all the way down at the end of your sparge.

Kent Fletcher
brewing in So Cal



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Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 11:03:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: re: bitter taste/aftertaste

Jeffrey McPike wrote: 
>I have brewed for several years, and have recently had three batches that
>had a strong bitterness to them.  It isn't exactly a hop bitterness, and it
>is worse in the aftertaste than while drinking.

Jeff-
if you're using tap water as your water source, check with your water company 
and  see if they've changed anything in the time frame you started noticing 
differences. Increased hardness and maybe other factors will increase the 
perception of hop bitterness. 

>Could my beer be picking up a taste from the aluminum?
>Do I need to scrub the aluminum clean between brewings?  (I wash the
>aluminum pot, but I don't use anything like steel wool and actually work to
>get to a bright shine inside)
>Could the aluminum be reacting with the copper chiller?

I don't think any of those are likely, and I wouldn't scrub the aluminum. 
Scrubing with steel wool will take the oxidized layer off, which will increase 
any flavors it may be contributing (if any). 

- --rama roberts
san francisco bay area



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Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:02:56 -0500
From: Peter Torgrimson <petertorgrimson at prodigy.net>
Subject: Re:  American Amber Ale

Paul Kensler and Steve Jones commented on American Amber Ale.

 Typical of this style, I have a third, somewhat different, 
interpretation.  I view this style as the place for ales which are too 
big ("over the top") for APA.  However, Amber Ales do not have to be 
bigger in OG or abv than APA, and the OG and abv numbers in the style 
guide are the same as for APA.  My perception is that many examples 
extend the range upward.  

As Paul points out, a big distinction is in the area of malt flavor.  I 
like his characterization and I agree that black patent and similar 
malts definitely should not be used.  On the other hand, the hop 
character may also be "over the top" as with North Coast's Red Seal Ale 
(one of my favorites).  This, and similar beers, are too malty AND too 
hoppy to fit well in the APA category.

Thus in this style, the flavor may be dominated by either hops or malt, 
but there should be good malt flavor.  When I judge this style, I am 
fairly open about malt or hop dominance.  I am also somewhat open about 
bigness, but this should be robust beer.  The key elements for me are 
good malt character with some complexity, and good hop character.  The 
bottom line is:  Is this interesting and good beer which generally fits 
the style?  It commonly, but not necessarily, has dry hop 
characteristics with American hops.  Some examples use non-traditional 
hops for finishing such as Columbus (North Coast's Red Seal) or Chinook 
(Mad River's Jamaica Red).

Peter Torgrimson
Austin, TX






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Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 14:34:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Wesner Reing <wreing at lynx.dac.neu.edu>
Subject: Stuck Fermentation (Laaglander?)


The Chili Ale, that I asked about yesterday and was hopping to put in the
Secondary today, is still at 1.022.  I don't have on OG because I broke my
Hydrometer right after I started boiling.  But recipator gives me an OG of
1.045.

The recipe clams that it should finish out at 1.011 and the attenuation at
1.022 would be just 51%.  Pretty low.  A little Googling comes up with a
bunch of sites claiming that Laaglander has attenuation problems.  Is this
still true? most of the sites looked to be at least a couple of years old. 

I'll probably just rack this to the secondary and hope for the best, but
now I'm worried about the yeast. I had planed to brew another batch on
this yeast and now I'm worried that there might be a problem with it.  I'm
using Wyeast 1056 that was shipped during pretty hot weather (it was 85
here in Boston).  When I smacked the pack (which was 25 days old) it took
3 days to swell up to the 1in recommended.  I made a starter which seemed
fine and was ready to pitch 24hrs after I started it. 

So my big questions are:
Is my Primary done at 1.022?  and
Can I/Should I reuse this yeast?

Wes
Brookline, MA



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Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 15:37:35 -0500
From: Peter Torgrimson <petertorgrimson at prodigy.net>
Subject: Re:  Liquid Level Control

Tony Barnsley asks about liquid level control using two float switches.

This looks similar to a common problem for boat owners when setting up 
the bilge pump.  To minimize the cycling of the pump, it is common to 
have two float switches at different levels wired to turn on the pump 
when the higher switch closes and turn off when the lower switch opens. 
  This can be accomplished simply with a SPST relay wired to the two 
float switches.  I will describe the wiring.  If this is not 
comprehensible, let me know and I will work up a schematic.

The upper float switch is wired directly from the power source to the 
pump motor.  The switched side of the upper float switch (the side 
connecting to the pump) is also connected to the coil of the relay and 
the other end of the coil connects to the power return.  The power 
source also is wired to the relay switch, and the relay switched side is 
wired to the lower float switch.  The switched side of the lower float 
switch connects to the pump motor.  Thus, the relay coil, and the 
switched sides of both float switches are connected to the pump motor.

In operation, when both float switches are open, the pump is not 
powered.  As the liquid rises, it closes the lower float switch. 
However, the pump still is not powered because the open relay switch 
keeps the power from the lower float switch. As the liquid continues to 
rise, the upper float switch closes.  This turns on the pump, and also 
powers the relay which closes the relay switch, and the already closed 
lower float switch also supplies power to the pump motor.  As the liquid 
level is lowered, the upper float switch opens.  However, power to the 
pump motor is not interrupted because the relay is powered from the 
output of the lower float switch.  As the liquid falls even lower, the 
lower float switch opens, removing power to the pump motor and the relay 
coil, resetting the system to its original condition.


This control system uses only on/off control, but can be extended to 
provide for variable speed control.

Eagle 4.0 is a schematic capture and PCB layout program which is 
available in freeware for very small, non-commercial projects.  It can 
be found at http://www.CadSoftUSA.com.


Peter Torgrimson
Austin, TX






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Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:25:52 -0500
From: "Partner" <Partner at Netdirect.net>
Subject: Sparging

Gentleman, start your brew pots!!

I have a RIMS.... Sabco's.... I've brewed about 15 batch's on it so far
since Apr.

The last 4 batches have been an ALT.

And what I've noticed on the last 3 batches is...... that during the Sparge.
My grain bed is swelling.

I have been doing a protein rest at 122F, 30 Min's:  then a Sac. rest at
146F for an hour then ramp up to mashout at 168F.

During the sparge 173F and runoff. - I bought a Stainless Sparge arm, and
use that instead of the hose laided on top of the grain bed, and no matter
how fast I introduce water to the grain bed, I can not keep the liquid level
above the grain bed.   The grains are swelling to double the size of the
circulating mash setup.  From an 8 gallon level to at least 14 gallons.

I use about 5 Lbs.. of Munich in the Alt.   and all I can think is that it
must be a grain doing this...    I also used 1 LB. of Wheat. and other
assorted goodies.

While I'm sparging I think..( there I go thinking again) Why am I ramping up
for a Mashout?    When it boils. it's going to denature any emy-zines.....
What I look for during the mash is to maximize fermentables....

Comments?

Byron
6727.7,8   Apparent     ly lost

Whoooooooa   that puts it south of Chicago, and North of Memphis, In the
Heart of the Blues.



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