---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  Re: Star San bubbles in bottles (John Palmer)
  Re: Star San bubbles in bottles ("Gary Smith")
  Re: Star San questions (Kent Fletcher)
  Re: Yeast Wrangling (David Radwin)
  Fall European Beer Trip ("Fred Waltman")
  re: Star San question ("Mark Tumarkin")
  judging comments ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Corny Poppet Valves (Tony Barnsley)
  Burner salvaging (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
  RE: giddy ("Steven Parfitt")
  Pat, pat, pat (Brian Lundeen)
  Re: Brian's judging story (Bill Wible)
  List Member ("David Craft")
  Fw: Star San proposal ("The Madcap")


*
* Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! 
* http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:50:50 -0700
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com>
Subject: Re: Star San bubbles in bottles

Gary wonders about the effect of Star San bubbles in his drained, 
sanitized bottles on his beer's head retention and flavor:

I too, was squeamish at one time about this but since I was bottling a 
friend's beer who had twisted my arm to brew a batch for him, I went 
ahead and did it like Five Star said to. And you know what? I couldn't 
taste any difference in the beer, there weren't any carbonation 
problems, and the head retention was normal!
Since then I, and other members of our club, (Crown of the Valley 
Brewers in Pasadena, CA) have routinely left the bubbles in sanitized 
carboys and bottles with no problems and no worries.
Hope this helps,
John


John Palmer
john at howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:06:10 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com>
Subject: Re: Star San bubbles in bottles

Thanks for the reply,

Gad I hate the thought of maybe, just maybe botching 9 gal 
from my first  run of the RIMS. Especially if the botch was 
during the last step in bacteria control...

Of course we won't talk about how I forgot to shut off the valve 
from the boilkettle to the hlt & added an extra 2 gal of hot 
water to the mash to dilute it before I boiled cause of siphon 
action. The wated slipped back & under the false bottom so I 
didn't see it. I had to boil for an extra 2 hours to get the spec 
grav back to beer standards...

Ah the pleasure of running the first batch with a  1 tier rims 
setup & answering the myriad questions of an interested 
nieghbor while discovering my rims nuances. (If he becomes a 
brewer I'll write it off to 'dues' it was my turn to pay & be 
happy).

Jus' a bit too much bittering but I made it, I'll drink it.

Gary
KA1J

> 
> Gary wonders about the effect of Star San bubbles in his drained, 
> sanitized bottles on his beer's head retention and flavor:
> I too, was squeamish at one time about this but since I was bottling a 
> friend's beer who had twisted my arm to brew a batch for him, I went 
> ahead and did it like Five Star said to. And you know what? I couldn't 
> taste any difference in the beer, there weren't any carbonation 
> problems, and the head retention was normal!
> Since then I, and other members of our club, (Crown of the Valley 
> Brewers in Pasadena, CA) have routinely left the bubbles in sanitized 
> carboys and bottles with no problems and no worries.
> Hope this helps,
> John
> 
> John Palmer
> john at howtobrew.com
> www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
> www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing

Gary

Gary Smith

http://musician.dyndns.org

A mother takes twenty years to make a man of her boy, 
and another woman makes a fool of him in twenty minutes.

 - Robert Frost -




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:13:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Star San questions

Gary was concerned about residual foam left by my
favorite sanitizer.

A few "NO"s are in order here.
No, you can't get all of the "bubbles" out of the
bottles, but if you look closely, you'll notice there
is No liquid remaining after draining. No, Star San
contains No soap.  No, Star San will not hurt
yeasties, carboys seemingly half filled with Star San
foam pose No problems with fermentation. No, it will
definitely not affect head retention. And lastly, No
rinse, No infection, No worries!

Kent Fletcher
brewing in So Cal




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:15:03 -0700
From: David Radwin <dradwin at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Yeast Wrangling

I have had repeated success culturing yeast from Chimay bottles (both 
large and small sizes) using the techniques described in Brewing the 
World's Great Beers by Dave Miller.  Of course, you get a Chimay-tasting 
beer, more or less. I'm sure many others have had the same experience.

I have read that Sierra Nevada Pale Ale has live yeast as well, as well 
as many Belgian beers, but I have no personal experience with them.

> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:36:42 -0400
> From: Matt Benzing <benzim at rpi.edu>
> Subject: Yeast Wrangling
> 
> I would like to try to wrangle yeast from a bottle conditioned beer. I have 
> heard that some bottle conditioned beers are filtered and then injected 
> with a dummy yeast, not the yeast that they were fermented with. Does 
> anyone know which products still contain the true yeast? I am looking at 
> Harvey's Elizabethan Ale, Harvey Imperial Extra Double Stout (aka A. le Coq 
> Imperial Stout), Bluebird Bitter, and  Salopian Entire Butt...pretty much 
> all the bottle conditioned beers my local store carries.

- -- 
David Radwin
news at removethispart.davidradwin.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:16:48 -0700
From: "Fred Waltman" <fwaltman at attbi.com>
Subject: Fall European Beer Trip

As we have for the last 4 years, a bunch of us are going over to Europe
this fall to drink some beer. On the agenda is the Karakterbier Festival
in Poperinge, Belgium, the 24 Hours of Belgian Beer in Antwerp and
visits to Dusseldorf, Cologne and Bamberg (in time for the release of
the bock beers!). If you are planning your own trip in late
October-early November check out our schedule at www.StickeWarriors.com
and maybe we can get together for a beer or six.

Speaking of Bamberg and Franconia, I am also working on a new resource
for beer travelers, www.FranconiaBeerGuide.com -- it is still very much
a work in progress, but it may be useful to somebody planning a beer
trip in the area.

Fred Waltman
Los Angeles, CA



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 06:58:25 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Star San question

Gary,

You asked about the remaining Star San in the bottle affecting yeast
performance and taste. I don't think you'll have any problem. I've only used
Star San a few times but other brewers in my club use it regularly. I don't
detect any flavor and the yeast & fermentations seem fine (same with
idodophor). I am planning on switching once my iodophor runs out. Mainly
because it doesn't stain plastic and seems to keep better long term - though
you can 'refresh' your solution of either one.

A suggestion for getting more of the bubbles out (would work for either
sanitizer) - move your hands circularly as you hold the bottles upside down to
drain. This gets the fluid inside moving around the bottles like water down a
drain & seems to make them run out more cleanly & completely.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:14:18 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: judging comments

Brian,


While talking about judges descriptions, you wrote:
"Although stranger coincidences have happened, one would have to assume that
the same judge wrote these two reviews. The weird part is the competitions
for these two beers were a year apart. Interpret this as you like, what it
says to me is this. There is (was) a judge out there who, rather than
writing individualized reviews for individual beers, preferred to just call
up macros as needed. That strikes me as lazy, or at least jaded, and
probably not very effective judging. Judges, feel free to slap me down if
you think I'm being too harsh on this kind of thing."


I won't slap you down, though this particular example seems a bit extreme. I
know that one thing I've been thinking about re my own judging is overuse of
same vocabulary & phrases. I think it's way too easy to use the same wording
repetitively. I have thought that it might be interesting to see 20 of my own
score sheets for a particular style of beer. It might appear that I'd judged
the exact same beer many times. I think this is less so for problem beers or
really excellent beers, but for those in the middle I probably use the same
words too frequently. I've started trying to look at the other judges score
sheets (if time permits when we're done) to see what phrases, words, etc
someone else used for the same flavors, faults etc while it's still fresh in
my mind. It is way too easy to fall back on a limited set of phrases and
words. I look at the beer reviews of folk like MJ, Protz, etc with awe. While
their poetic descriptions may be out of place on a judging score sheet,
they're way better than what I often turn out. If we want to be good judges,
we have to keep thinking about things like this & trying to improve ourselves
and the feedback we give to the brewers.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:32:30 +0100
From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk>
Subject: Corny Poppet Valves

Hi all,

Here in the UK we are quite lucky in that we have a couple of sources of
Corny kegs that are not extortionate. (7.50 USD each uncleaned and untested)
but our supplies of 'spares' are very limited. Poppet valves are our biggest
problem. We know that there are at least 4 types, but our supplier can only
get us one type which does not fit in all kegs. Now there's a surprise!

Does anyone know of a wholesale supplier of poppet valves in the US that we
can contact to bulk order a reasonable quantity?

Perhaps one of the retailers reading this would be willing to negotiate
prices for a bulk order of Corny bits?

Thanks In Advance

- --

Wassail!

The Scurrilous Aleman (ICQ 46254361)
Schwarzbad Lager Brauerei, Blackpool, Lancs, UK

Email Disclaimer is:
http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/democracy/corpdocs/EmailDisclaimer.htm

This message has been scanned by F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange
as part of the Council's e-mail and internet policy.


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:34:06 -0400
From: "Barrett, Bob (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
Subject: Burner salvaging

With all this salvage talk the past few days I have been wondering if 
anyone has ever made a homebrew set up from a discarded water
heater burner or burners?  How do the BTU's compare to the 
175,000-200,000 BTU's of the Cajun Cooker?  What else do you
need to do to be able to use it?  How does it attach to the framing
of your brewing stand?  Do you have any pictures?  Is one particular
brand better than another?

Bob Barrett
We Make the Beer We Drink!!!
Ann Arbor, MI   (2.8, 103.6) rennerian


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:26:57 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: giddy

Darell Posta:
>Erik ( ShoesBrew3 at aol.com ) admits to getting giddy when a new brew is
>on tap at the local brew-pub.  I too frequently experience the "giddy
>factor", which for me occurs when I realize that a batch that I bottled
>a week or so ago is now ready to sample...YIPEEE! at # at !

>Beyond the obvious motivations for brewing (the taste of fresh ale,
>the fun of 'cooking', the pleasure derived from making
>your friends happy, etc..)  I believe that there is something more
>intrinsic to it.  That is, the activity itself, the challenge of >managing 
>the myriad factors that go into a good brew,.......... >perhaps also the 
>direct and concrete feedback that one gets....
>Psychologists call this by various names, but one is 'effectance', ie >the 
>sense that one has had an effect...and some (White, for example) >believe 
>that this type of motivation is itself innate,...not socially 
> >inculcated....

I was thinking I was just a Brew-a-holic! I am in withdrawl right now.

I have just moved, and can't get to my brew stuf to make a batch, and 
although I have plenty of beer on hand (I planned ahead for the rest of the 
year for LHBC Comps, etc), I want to brew.

For me it is a hectic and tiring process when I brew, but I never brew quite 
the same. Often I do party gyle or split batches where I chill half the wort 
and start one batch, then continue the boil with spice additions, different 
hops, or just higher gravity to produce a second batch. My brew days often 
run 10 or 12 hrs from start to finish cleanup.

There is something about trying different recipes, tweaking the process that 
is addictive to me..

rev Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:07:13 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Pat, pat, pat

No, I'm not trying to get our janitor's attention, just reassuring Gary
Smith, who wrote:
> 
> I am using my first run with Star San. I just soaked the bottles
> for about 5 min & then hung them upside down to dry but 
> there's sooo many bubbles left behind. I called the people I 
> bought it from and they said not to worry, that's the way is is 
> but it will be no problem whatsoever.
> 
> It must be OK because so many people like it.
> 
> Reassurances would be appreciated.

Star San residue is not yeast inhibiting the way Iodophor or chlorine are.
It also imparts no flavour. Take a sip of the stuff (in properly diluted
form of course) if you don't believe me. I was over at randomly appearing
poster Ralph Link's place (which is out in the country) and demonstrated
this to him. I did remark to him that his well water tasted like excrement
(changed because Pat,pat,pat's filters even go after the Scottish version of
the usual term), but other than that, it is really quite innocuous.

Now I suppose some day some "black hole of fun" (or scientist, as they are
commonly known) will show that dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid causes your
liver, kidneys and frontal lobes to melt into virtually indistinguishable
blobs. Until that time, I will highly recommend Star San to anyone who'll
listen as an easy to use, reusable, effective and not horrendously expensive
sanitizer. And if you find a place that sells the stuff by the gallon, like
I did, you're way ahead on the last point, too.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Killin' da bugs at [314,829] aka Winnipeg


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:52:33 -0400
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: Brian's judging story


Brian Lundeen writes about poor judge comments, and
what he perceived to be laziness by a judge who
apparently used canned comments.

Brian, there is so much going on here.  It sounds like
these might not even have been judge's comments at all,
but could have been something an editor made up.  Or it
might have been a 'cut and paste' problem where they
inadvertently used the same comments twice.

Even if they were real judge's comments, it's been my
experience that the people who are BJCP judges come
from a variety of backgrounds and jobs.  We're not all
master degree college educated people.  Yes, there are
alot of programmers and engineers walking around with the
BJCP style guidelines in their PDA's at these competitions,
but you'll also find guys (and girls) from all sorts of
other backgrounds as well.

Just like the mixes that make most homebrew clubs, you'll
find blue collar people along with the white collar people.
There are plumbers, carpenters, and painters along with
the engineers, doctors, programmers, and corporate executives.
There are even some older guys who are retirees.  The
plumbers and carpenters are usually not required to write
anything as part of their job.  Any skill that isn't used
regularly does deteriorate.

Some of the people have no college, most were never english
majors, and for some, English is not even their native language.

Remember we had a professional brewer on hbd here from Germany
whose native language was German.  Not that long ago, he was
attacked rather brutally over faulty English in one of his
posts.  Sadly, we lost that guy and his expertise for good
over that insensitivity.

Just bear in mind that not all judges are equal.  Yes, like
everything else, there are good and bad.   But just because
someone's grammar or English isn't excellent, it doesn't mean
they're stupid or they can't judge beer.

And canned comments like the one you quoted are still far
better than some of the ones I've gotten.  I've had sections
on scoresheets that were returned to me that had 3 letters
in the whole section.  Something like 'DMS'.  That was the
whole comment section.

Sometimes, I can even understand something like that, especially
from a larger competition with alot of entries.  Competitions are
held in donated or very cheaply rented spaces, usually at an
area bar or restaurant.  The competition has a set amount of time
to finish, then these places want their space back.  So sometimes
judges are rushed, and they have to go a little quicker than
they might like.

Complaining about judge comments is nothing new.  If you search
HBD and judgenet, you'll find this has been going on forever.
Let's admit it, how many of us really enter a competition
'just to get feedback'?  Nah, some people might say that,
but I don't believe it.  We're all trying for ribbons.

It seems the guys who get a 38 and a first place award every
time out usually don't care as much about what the judges
actually wrote, now do they?   And you'll notice its the same
guys every time.  You don't hear from them about quality of
comments.  Its usually guys who got low scores or who
didn't get a ribbon that are doing all the complaining
'about the judges'.

Bill



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:16:59 -0400
From: "David Craft" <chsyhkr at bellsouth.net>
Subject: List Member

Is Phil Sides on this List?  I have a question for you about a recent
judging.  Please respond to me directly.

Sorry for the interruption, We now return you to your programming already
in progress.

David B. Craft
Battleground Brewers Homebrew Club
Crow Hill Brewery and Meadery
Greensboro, NC



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:32:48 -0300
From: "The Madcap" <atomheartbarrett at datafull.com>
Subject: Fw: Star San proposal

"Gary Smith" wrote this about the Star San

> I am using my first run with Star San. I just soaked the bottles
> for about 5 min & then hung them upside down to dry but
> there's sooo many bubbles left behind. I called the people I
> bought it from and they said not to worry, that's the way is is
> but it will be no problem whatsoever.
>
> Seems like the bubbles would indicate some kind of surfactant
> (soap) & that would reduce head retention. I wonder about it's
> effects on the yeast when I bottle (if it's a sanitizer won't it
> make it hard for the yeast if there's bubble residue left behind
> after hanging to dry)?

Gary, if I were you I'd probably do this, split the batch in two before I
bottle it and use some bottles sanitized with Star San and some bottles
sanitized with alcohol.
I don't know how Star San works, I've never even heard of it, down here in
Argentina but by doing this you'd compare how does it affect the head of
your beer or the work of the yeast if it does it.
If you don't trust Star San you could use only a few bottles sanitized with
it.


The Madcap Laughs At The Man In The Border




Return to table of contents

---