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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  First Wort Hopping vs. Bittering Hops Additions ("Fred L. Johnson")
  re: counter pressure bottling and filtering (Paul Kensler)
  Oak Chips (Matt Benzing)
  RE: FWH impressions (Paul Shick)
  wheat yeast blends (Randy Ricchi)
  FWH (Marc Sedam)
  Good Use for Klein Calendar ("DRTEELE")
  Yeast and schmoo tips ("Pete Calinski")
  Ok, it's in the engine block.  Now what? (John Sarette)
  Re: dry hopping with pellets ("Thomas D. Hamann")


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Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 07:31:09 -0400
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <fljohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: First Wort Hopping vs. Bittering Hops Additions

In HBD #4019, Steve Alexander kindly responded to my question about 
the flavor effect of a single, first wort hopping compared to the 
flavor contribution from a typical bittering hop addition (at the 
beginning of the boil).  Though the design of Steve's experiments 
wasn't carefully controlled by brew the same beer (who among us can?) 
with the exception of substituting the FWH addition with a single 
"bittering" hop addition, Steve's description of the resulting flavor 
and bittering from these single, FWH additions sounds to me pretty 
much like what one would expect from a bittering addition.

Thanks, Steve, for your very informative report.  Anyone else out 
there brewed anything with only a single, FWH addition.  I'd love to 
see a direct comparison of single hopping as FWH versus a bittering 
addition. IBU measurements would be very helpful along with the usual 
subjective flavor descriptions.  Perhaps this is a call for some 
small-batch experiments, since the resulting beers may not be our 
favorites.
- -- 
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA


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Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 06:50:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: counter pressure bottling and filtering

Dennis,
I suspect the cause of your flavor deterioration in
both cases may be oxidation.

Check the HBD archives for extremely extensive
discussions on flavors and causes associated with
oxidative staling, but in summary oxidation can result
in loss of hop aroma and flavor, loss of malt flavor,
and an increase in honey-like or caramel-like
sweetness.  Note, the honey-like and caramel-like
flavors associated with staling are similar but
different from the flavors associated with real honey
or fresh caramel malt or carmelized sugars.  I believe
it was Steve Alexander that recently (sometime this
year anyway) suggested performing an artificial
staling experiment on a couple of bottles of homebrew
to compare the staled vs. the non-staled beer, in
order to learn to pick out the flavor changes.

It may be the fearsome ogre HSA rearing its ugly head,
or it may be just the procedures and/or equipment
involved in the cpb and filtering.  For the cpb beers,
are you able to purge the bottle of air before
filling?  Are the bottles kept cold afterwards, or are
they kept somewhere warm?  

For the filtering, it could be too tight a filtration
 - but if the beer is mixing with air inside the filter
it could cause oxidation.  Are you able to flush CO2
through the filter before passing the beer through?


Hope this helps,
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:52:36 -0400
From: Matt Benzing <benzim at rpi.edu>
Subject: Oak Chips

I am experimenting with a braggot and I would like to add oak chips in 
secondary to get that "barrel aged" character. Anyone have experience with 
this? Should the chips be steamed? How much should I add? Can anyone 
recommend a commercial beer aged in oak so I can get an idea of what I'm 
aiming at?

Thanks, Matt



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Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:19:41 -0500
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: RE: FWH impressions


Hi all,

     Steve Alexander gives a nice description of the outcome
of his First Wort Hop only brews, in response to a question
of Fred Johnson's.  Steve's brews seem to have more
bitterness compared to hop flavor for these brews.

     I think we might need a bit more information of the
brewing process, if we hope to interpret these findings
accurately.  I suggest this because I've seen a wide variation
in FWH character in my own brews, depending on how long the
FW hops steep, and at what temperature.  I've settled on the
following procedures (for my palate and my system.  Don't
read too much into how this might work for you.)  If I want a
beer with a ton of hop flavor, I'll leave the FW hops steeping
in the wort at about 160F for an hour or more before raising the 
temperature for the boil.  These hops seems to contribute
bitterness at about the same level as a 20 minute boil addition,
according to my palate.  I'll also add hops at the 5-10 minute
mark and knockout, plus the bittering hops, to these brews.  If
I'm aiming for a beer with less hop flavor, I'll start heating 
the runoff with the FW hops in it almost immediately.  It stays
in the 160-180F range for no more than 20 minutes (since I run
off from the mash tun rather quickly.)  I get less hop flavor
from these brews, but a bit more bitterness (closer to a 30-40
minute addition.)  

     In either case, the hop flavor seems a bit "smoother" from 
the FWH additions than from late kettle additions, more 
blended with the malt profile.  My (unbridled) speculation about
the differences in character between the two procedures is that
the longer the hops steep at sub isomeration/utilization temps,
the more the acids and oils are bound up with the malt
proteins/sugars and the less they're available for bitterness.
My recent batches done with mash hopping tend to confirm this
opinion.

     Of course, these are completely subjective impressions,
so you should take them with a large grain of salt.  The
results seem pretty consistent over several years of brewing
on the same system, though, using almost all whole hops.  I'm
in the process of converting to hop pellets, trying to fix
some recent problems with whole hop storage, so I'll have
to learn about FWH (and all other hopping) all over again.

                        Paul Shick
                        Dreaming of noncheesy hops in
                        Cleveland Hts, OH


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Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:41:05 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <randyr at up.net>
Subject: wheat yeast blends

As far as I know, most bavarian wheat brewers that use more than one
yeast use a single weizen strain for fermenting and a lager yeast for
bottling. The reason they bottle with a lager yeast is that they are
more stable than weizen yeasts and so are less likely to autolyze and
harm the flavor of the finished beer. Schneider does use multiple
strains for primary fermentation, and these are left in the beer at
bottling. I've never had  A Schneider weisse that I really liked, and
maybe that's because I've never had a really fresh one. I have a bottle
of their weisse in my fridge, and am tempted to culture up the yeast and
brew with it to see if it makes a good weizen when fresh.

The Wyeast 3056 is a blend of their American ale yeast (1056) and a
weizen yeast. It can make a decent weizen, but if you re-use the yeast
you will start to get cleaner and cleaner weizens, presumably because
you may be selecting more of the 1056 than the weizen yeast. This
happened to me years ago.

3068 is definitely a bavarian weizen yeast, as is the 3638, but the 3333
is actually more of a Berliner Weisse yeast.  You don't want to use that
for a bavarian weizen.

Hope this helps.



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Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:48:30 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: FWH

Hi Fred,

I've done plenty of pilsners where the FWH addition were the
ONLY hops added.  The hop flavor and bitterness were as
advertised.  A richer flavor and a very nice pilsner.  I
think I did this on a N. German pils using three ounces of
Hallertauer (4%aa) as the FWH hops.

I've also brewed plenty of beers where mash hops were the
only hops other than the bittering charge.  For example, my
CAPs use a healthy dose (4oz) of Crystal hops (still
bemoaning the demise of my favorite flavor hop--Ultra) in
the mash and just an ounce of a high alpha hop (like
Horizon) as soon as the boil starts.  Same same...lots of
hop flavor and aroma.

I really enjoy both hopping methods, but (of course) prefer
mash hopping.  Yet hearing me talk about the benefits of
MHing is like talking to Jeff Renner about CAPs--we're
preachers in search of a choir.  Ale-elluia.

- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:03:33 -0400
From: "DRTEELE" <drteele at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Good Use for Klein Calendar

Back when I first got interested in homebrewing, SWMBO gave me a Klein
calendar. Being the ignorant sap that I was then, I always looked forward to
reading the beer review of the day when I got to work. He always had my
mouth watering dreaming of the beers I never had.

Well, I'm older (and wiser) now and while I don't concur with Klein's
flowery prose in critiquing brews, I am still envious of his career. Come
now, how many of us wouldn't want to travel around and sample every brew
imaginable in exchange for a paragraph of frilly words on how it made us
feel to drink it. Hell, even Charlie P. tried it.

Well, I saved every day of that calendar and will put it to good use. When I
finally get a dedicated brewspace, I plan on wallpapering it with Kleinisms.
That way, whenever and wherever I look around when brewing, I will be
remembered of those mouthwatering dreams of far-away mugs filled with "soft
brussels lace" and "delicate, fruity, woody brew, with rich plum mouthfeel
and maple-syrup aroma" (Sam Adam's Triple Bock - 12/31/98). So many brews,
so little time......

Dan (waaaayyy south of 0,0 Rennerian)



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Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:19:12 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Yeast and schmoo tips

Hard getting your ferment started.  Maybe your yeast needs more schmoo tips.
And I thought schmoo was how you adjusted core memory.

See:

<http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?
file=/chronicle/archive/2002/08/19/BU141187.DTL>

Or maybe it is just a waste of your time.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************





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Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:35:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Sarette <j2saret at yahoo.com>
Subject: Ok, it's in the engine block.  Now what?

(all aluminum 170 cc slant 6)  Actually a 6.5 us
gallon ss turkey fryer with a two piece air lock.

I brewed a Veinna ale yesterday.  The process included
two firsts for me:  1.  I had my new 6.5 gallon pot to
use as a boiler and primary fermenter and
 2.  I converted my 5.5 gallon (u.s.) pot into a
kettle masher that part went very well.
  It's easier than the primitive dump/batch sparge
method I was using and easily as efficient.  (1.050 vs
the 1.049 I could confidently predict with my old
method.)
Inspired by Jeff Renier's clear, concise and
enthuastic posting on how to pre-mash corn meal I also
broke a solem vow (see titanic disaster ale) and
included a pound of corn meal in the brew.  (It took
the same five (5!) hours to mash.  Did it bother me? 
Oh no we went grocery shopping and took a long walk on
the pier--my wife now likes brew day.)
However I do have some questions about fermenting in
Steel.  Unlike with the 5.5 gallon carboy I was using
a primary before, I cannot see any activity.  By this
point with this yeast and these temps I could expect
to have blown off about a quart of fluid.  I have no
activity in my air lock at all what I am asking is:

1.  For some arcane reason is fermentation slower to
begin in stainless than in glass?
2.  Because I did not transfer from brew pot to
fermenter through a screened funnel a lot of trub is
in my pot--will that slow down fermentation?
3.  Because I did not transfer from boiler to
fermenter I shook the kettle for several minuter to
airate was that insufficient?
4.  Was I just unlucky?
5.  How long should I wait before I unclamp the lid
and peek inside?
Thanks for all the help I am learning a lot.

John (j2saret at yahoo.com)
As far north and as far inland as possible for a U.S.
sea port.

=====
God is not on your side
God does not take sides
God is a pure fan of the game.

Play hard.  Play fair.



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Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:12:49 +0930
From: "Thomas D. Hamann" <tdhamann at senet.com.au>
Subject: Re: dry hopping with pellets

I use 3 big marbles in a stocking when i dry-hop.
The 2oz sounds good too, I dry-hop for 10-14 days and seem to get a better 
effect if I lager the beer at the same time, (at around 0-4degC [32-40degF] ).

tdh



At 00:11 19/08/02 Monday -0400, you wrote:
>I'm making an American Pale Ale, using Cascades to dry hop.  I plan to
>add 1 or 2 oz to my 10 gal batch.  A secondary question is will 2 oz be
>too much?
>
>Lou King
>Ijamsville, MD
>





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