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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Removing a Sankey tap (Drew Hough)
  Hop Back Construction (Tony Barnsley)
  RE: Cleaning CF Chiller ("David Houseman")
  oxygen (Himsbrew)
  Re:  building the brewery stand ("Dennis Collins")
  CAP bug... (Mark Linton)
  Boston Beer Haunts (Pete Limosani)
  RE: building the brewery stand (Wayne Aldrich)
  Spelling of Shmoo and How it Relates to Brewing ("Pete Calinski")
  Stainless fitting welded with non-SS welding wire and related health risks (John Scime)
  Suggestions for Timothy (LJ Vitt)
  Keg lines to Kitchen (jayspies)
  RE: Newbie and new list member (Bill Tobler)
  Re: Removing a Sankey tap (Jeff Renner)


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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 23:15:28 -0700
From: Drew Hough <brew at kallnet.com>
Subject: Removing a Sankey tap

This may sound like a silly question.  At long last I feel comfortable
describing myself as a confident and experienced homebrewer, and I am able
to serve my homebrews with ease in Cornelius kegs.  But I am embarrassed to
admit I have very little experience dealing with commercial US beer kegs,
and now one is on tap in our house.

I want to clean the line as I would with the Cornies, but I am terrified of
what would happen if I remove the tap and I want to avert a mess.  The keg
is under CO2 pressure and the beer line contains beer up to the faucet
(obviously).  I would imagine a commercial keg and/or the Sankey tap would
have a check valve, a poppet or the like to facilitate easy removal, but
this is not something I want to find out by trial and error.  If a 15.5-
gallon keg empties all over the floor, dirty beer lines will be the least
of my worries.

I have not been able to find this information anywhere on the Net.
Although I could probably call any bar or self-respecting frat guy, I
figured I would post my questions inwpublic forum for anyone else who might
find the answer useful.

So, please, what is the proper way to un-tap a full and pressurized keg?
Do I need to bleed all of the internal pressure first (poor beer!), or is
there a check valve to keep the beer and gas contained in the keg?  What
should I expect from the tap when removed?  (For example, will some of the
beer left in the line spill out of the tap?  Will the residual pressure in
the gas supply line (although closed) spray beer from under the tap
everywhere?)

Thanks in advance!


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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:56:17 +0100
From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk>
Subject: Hop Back Construction

Hi all,

Thanks for all the help with some recent queries. So here is another one.

In order to get some great aroma in my beers I have incorporated a hop back
in line between my Pump and CFC. Its a 1L stainless steel storage container
with a 'clamp down' lid. I have a filter in place which is the filter bit of
a cafetiere type coffee maker. It will hold around 40g of hops which is
about OK for my 45L batches, but I will be moving up to a bigger batch size
soon (Say Around 200L :> ) and will be wanting to use something just a
little bit bigger.

Now my current hop back is not without its problems. One is getting a seal
with the clamp down lid, but I think that I can solve that by wrapping wire
around the clamp bits.

At my usual flow rates (4.5L / min) I get around 30 seconds flow before the
wort sprays out between the seal. What I suspect is happening is that the
hops are blocking the filter. One thing I will be trying is to use a bigger
coarser filter, say a large scrubby, and see how that works.

I am concerned however what this will mean for my larger hop back. I was
thinking about using a 10L corny, and some sort of stainless mesh filter.
Similar to a bazooka screen but around the size of a coke can, anyone know
of such a device available ready made? (Zymie?)

- --

Wassail!

The Scurrilous Aleman (ICQ 46254361)
Schwarzbad Lager Brauerei, Blackpool, Lancs, UK

Email Disclaimer is:
http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/democracy/corpdocs/EmailDisclaimer.htm

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as part of the Council's e-mail and internet policy.


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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:31:36 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Cleaning CF Chiller

"Even though this obstruction was a bug's nest of some kind (yes, I admit I
left my chiller outside for a month or so without being used)..."

A simple solution to prevent this problem is to buy two solid rubber
stoppers (ACE/True Value Hardware) and with an appropriate size standard
drill bit, drill a hole 1/2 way through the stopper.  These form convenient
prior to and after each use and just put them back on to keep ants, bees and
dust out of the chiller.

Dave Houseman



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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:46:23 EDT
From: Himsbrew at aol.com
Subject: oxygen

greetings all!
A while back someone suggested using a oxygen tank
from home depot(the desposable kind), I picked one
up ,but my question is :what do you usee for a nozzle,
the guy at the store suggestec I use the one from my
propane torch(also left hand thread), I tried but it doesn't
seem to fit. Can I pick up some plumbing fitting?or does
it need to be one designed specifically for an o2 tank?

ps. does anyone have a nice malty Okt.fest partial mash 
recipe they would like to share?
thanks,
patiently waiting to make better beer in Green Bay  Wi.
(just left of Jeff on my map) ;-)


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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:21:33 -0400
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Re:  building the brewery stand

Marc Sedam asks about brewery stands.  One point confused me:

"...I want to create a three-tiered system.  The highest tier would be the
HLT, but would NOT need a flame source.  I can heat the water and pump it up
to the HLT when finished.  The second tier will be the mash tun, and the
lowest tier will be the kettle..."

A three tier system is certainly the tallest all grain structure you can
build, and it's usually a gravity fed system.  My question is, if you
already have a pump, why are you building a three tier system?  If you have
the pump, you can just pump water out of the HLT instead of having it over
your head for a gravity feed.  Sounds a lot safer.  Folks usually get pumps
to avoid having the height of a three tier gravity system.  Just an opinion.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com

"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but not in practice".





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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:25:33 -0500
From: Mark Linton <cryptcl at earthlink.net>
Subject: CAP bug...

Well, like some others around here, Jeff Renner's article on brewing a 
Classic American Pilsner has got me curious 
(http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue3.5/renner.html), and 
I'm planning on brewing one of these next.

I'm probably going to skip the two step mash at 140 and 158F, and do a 
single rest at around 150-ish F and add a 1/2 pound of a light 
crystal.  Cluster for bittering, and Sterling for flavor/aroma (it's 
described to have characteristics similar to a blend of Hallertauer and 
Saaz).  Target IBU = 27 or thereabouts.

Okay, now which yeast to use?  It seems like there would be three 
legitimate options:

White Labs WLP840 American Lager Yeast (Attenuation = 75-80%)
Wyeast 2035 American Lager Yeast (Att. 73-77%)
Wyeast 2272 North American Lager Yeast (Att. 70-76%)

Has anyone used any of these three yeasts?  Would all be suitable, or is 
one a better historical choice than another?

Any guidance on any other item would be appreciate.  Thanks!

Mark




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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:35:19 -0400
From: Pete Limosani <plimosani at rcn.com>
Subject: Boston Beer Haunts

 >On Tue, 27 August 2002, John Baxter Biggins inquired
 >about Boston beer haunts:
 > >
 > > Will be travelling to Boston (specifically Harvard in
 > > Cambridge). Need
 > > advice on the good places to go. Note: will only be
 > > there a day, so please
 > > tell me the outstanding, must-see bars/breweries.
 > >
 > > Private email OK
 > >
 > > -jb

A beer hop in Boston just wouldn't be, without a stop at the
Sunset Grill & Tap at 130 Brighton Street in Allston
(a section of Boston--a mile or two from Harvard U.).

They have over 100 beers on tap (none of them from Milwaukee)
and a four page menu of bottled beers (I think about 350).
Order the curly-cue fries if you want to snack with your beer.
Their steam burgers are good, too.

Here are some reviews:
http://boston.citysearch.com/profile/4742908
http://www.pubcrawler.com/Template/ReviewWC.cfm?BrewerID=1138
http://www.beeradvocate.com/beerfly/user_reviews/1058

Here is their home page:
http://www.allstonsfinest.com/sunset.htm (has a list of their beers)

I've been going there for at least 10 years now.
It's the place that inspired me to brew my own.
Maybe I'll see you there...

Pete Limosani
Waltham, MA



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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:29:42 +0200
From: aldrich4 at t-online.de (Wayne Aldrich)
Subject: RE: building the brewery stand

Marc, go to this website.
http://www.barleys.nl/index.htm?thuisbrouwerijen
There are 90 different homebrewery designs here with links to each.  I
designed mine after 4 different designs I found here.  Mine is not yet
listed at the site.  Good luck!

Wayne Aldrich




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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:20:24 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Spelling of Shmoo and How it Relates to Brewing

Oops, sorry for spelling shmoo wrong.  When I posted the link:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/08/19
/BU141187.DTL

originally, I peeked back to check the spelling of shmoo.  I just picked up
the spelling of "schmoo" [sic] from the middle of the page where the
original article spelled it incorrectly.  I guess Joe Bsxcrtkz must have
been in the room when I composed the post.

I'm not sure if I spelled Joe's last name correctly, but I do remember that
it didn't have any vowels in it.  At least I got that part right (I hope).
For those that don't know or remember, Joe Bsxcrtkz was another character of
Al Capp's that appeared in his cartoon strip.  Joe brought bad luck wherever
he went.  If he walked down the street, all the cars crashed into each
other.  If you got near him, you did something wrong.  You could always spot
Joe as he walked down the street in Dogpatch (the town where the cartoon was
set).  He had a black cloud hanging over his head that followed him
everywhere, raining on him all the time.

How does that relate to brewing?  I have had some brew days when I am sure
Joe was standing beside me but I just couldn't see him.

How do shmoos relate to brewing?  Well, my interpretation of the shmoo was
Al Capp's way of making fun of the 'left wing" welfare state.  ( Al was a
"little to the right of Attila the Hun")  When ever he felt that general
opinion was getting too far to the left, the shmoos would return to
Dogpatch.  Of course, everyone loved it at first.  The shmoos took care of
everything, food clothing, shelter.  The residents of Dogpatch didn't have
to do anything.  Just sit around; complete welfare state.  Of course, over
the 2 or 3 weeks that the shmoo segment ran in the paper, things went down
hill and by the end, everyone was glad to see the shmoos leave so they could
go back to doing for themselves.

As for Homebrewing, we all know what happens when the beer welfare state
(shmoos=Budmillercoors) make the beer.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY, near Buffalo

The state that elected the carpet-bagger Hilary Rodham Clinton.
Joe Bsxcrtkz must have been in NY that election day.




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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:22:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Scime <jascime at yahoo.com>
Subject: Stainless fitting welded with non-SS welding wire and related health risks

Gilbert Milone asked about a Stainless fitting welded
incorrectly.

I'm certainly not a metalurgist (heck, I'm not even
sure I can spell the word correctly), however, this
issue has come up recently amongst the Members of
Barleyment as a bunch of us have converted kegs.

>From what I recall, "regular" (as opposed to SS)
welding wire is very bad, but not only because your
welds will rust thereby imparting off-flavours in your
beer.  Apparently, non-stainless-steel welding rod
contains cadmium or some other hazardous element that
has been linked as a carcinogen.  

As this is a rather important health issue, perhaps
someone out there can provide the list with a better
explanation.  At minimun, I think you would do well to
confirm the health risks of regular weld in a food
processing application.  Even if the risk is minimal,
I myself wouldn't feel safe and would take steps to
remove the risk.

But I don't have any tried and true suggestions about
how you should deal with your unfortunate situation
beyond the following observation made yesterday while
watching a welder attached a 1/2" SS coupling to my
own sanke keg.  As background, you need to know that I
had already taken this keg to another welder, who
managed to botch the job because he didn't have the
correct shielding gas.  His botched attempt consisted
of partially welding the coupling flush with the
outside of the keg.  In summary, he only managed to
apply about a 1/2" "blob" of SS weld around the
circumference of the coupling .  The second welder
easily managed to grind off the previously applied
weld, thereby freeing the coupling (with a gentle tap
or two from a hammer). Once removed, the port looked
about the same as it did before the welding mishap. 
So, based on this, I would think that an experienced
welder should be able to do the same in your
situation, although it won't be pretty.  The welder
could then clean-up the area around the remaining port
with emery paper, SS wool or other abrasive, and
re-weld the coupling with SS wire.  It'll likely look
a bit messy, but might do the trick.

Lastly, you might consider making the original welder
do the clean-up to reduce costs.  Just make sure he
doesn't mes-up twice in a row!!

Good luck.

John Scime
Members of Barleyment
Ottawa, Canada



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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:53:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Suggestions for Timothy

Timothy asked for some suggestions for beers to make that
he can make with the equipement he already has for kit
brewing.

I'm suggesting you get one of the following books:
Brewing the World Greatest Beers - Dave Miller
The New Complete Joy of Home Brewing - Charlie Papazian
Homebrewing Vol 1 - Al Koronas

My suggestion for you is to buy unhopped extract, 
specialty malts, hops and yeast.  You need to be
able to crush the grains, but you can do this at
may supply stores, thus not needing any more equipment.

I know for myself, that the TNCJHB has recipes for extract with
steeping grain instructions and recipes. Actually, I have the 
old version of it.  I expect the others to have this level detail 
too.

Tomothy asked for a specific recipe.
He asked for dark, and lowly hopped ale.
English brown - This comes from the Brown ale style book by
Ray Daniels and Jim Parker.

8 lb pale ale extract
2 lb 40L crystal malt
2 oz chocolate malt
1 lb surgar

3/4 oz target hops boiled 60 min
1  oz Northern Brewer boliled 30 min
Wyeast #1318 Londn ale III yeast

Crush grains and steep at 1 gal water at 160F 30 min.
The recipe says 1 gal.  I suggest 2.
remove grain - If it is in a bag, this is easy.
Heat to boiling.  
Turn OFF heat.
Add extract and surgar and stir until disolved.
Reheat to a boil.
Add the 60 min hops
Boil 30 min and add the 30 min hops.
boil another 30 min.

You should already know the rest
chill, ferment, rack, ....... bottle or keg.

Feel free to change your version.  Hops and yeast would be the first
things you might change.  Hop and varieties are up to you.
If you don't want to work with liquid yeast, I suggest Danstar
dry yeast.


=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 18:31:37 +0000
From: jayspies at att.net
Subject: Keg lines to Kitchen

All -

Alan McKay wonders about runing beer lines to his 
kitchen from a downstairs fridge.

>>>I want to keep my keg fridge in the basement and run 
lines up to the kitchen counter (about 20 feet).  Would 
this work?<<<

Well, yes and no.  :)  The ideal tap system is one in 
which you can simply "plug and forget" your kegs from 
first sip to last, will maintain the correct CO2 
pressure on the beer, and is balanced so as to avoid 
foaming at the faucet. This is easier said than done, 
especially since you're running the tubes vertically.

There are two major sides to a draft system; the input 
side (ie - co2 to keg) and the output side (keg to 
faucet).  To acheive a harmonious draft system where 
both you and your beer are happy, these two sides need 
to be balanced.  Let me explain a bit:

First, measure the inside temp of your fridge.  CO2 
dissolves into solution at specific volumes depending 
on temp. Lower temps allow more CO2 to dissolve, and 
hence your beer becomes more carbonated at a given 
pressure as temp decreases.  For most beer styles, *my 
palate* says about 2.3 volumes of co2 gives me a good 
compromise on carbonation (YMMV).  Some high carbed 
styles like hefe get the sharp end of the stick with 
this, as do lower carbed styles like stout, but running 
different pressures simultaneously presents its own set 
of problems, and with your proposed setup, I'd stick to 
just one.  There are many carb charts out there that 
give you a volumes/temp grid, but I find that a 
pressure of about 13 to 14 psi, and a temp of around 45 
degrees gives me the correct volume.  That's the input 
side.  Assuming 45 degrees, set the regulator at about 
13 psi.

Now for the tricky part.  Beer line gives resistance 
depending on the ID.  You want this resistance to 
balance the pressure, ergo, the output side psi 
resistance must roughly equal the input side psi 
pressure.  Additionally you are going up, and gravity 
also = resistance, at about 1/2 lb per vertical foot.  
So, you need to factor in how much rise you have.  
Let's say for the sake of the post that the rise is 10 
feet.  At 1/2 lb/ft, this is 5 psi right off the bat to 
factor in.  If your total run is 20 feet, you need beer 
line with an appropriate ID to knock off 8 psi in 20 
feet.  8 divided by 20 = .40.  5/16" beer line just 
happens to give you a resistance of .40 lb/ft, so 20 
feet of 5/16" line = 8 lbs of resistance.

5 psi from the rise + 8 psi from the line = 13 psi.  
Voila, balanced.  HOWEVER, (haha, you knew there'd be a 
catch...) beer line will degass the beer as it sits, so 
to get a good pint, you'll likely have to run off the 
contents of the beer line which will likely be about a 
beer (by my seat of the pants calc) each time you want 
a quaff.  Also, maintenance of this much line can be 
tiresome (beer line cleaner run-through every few 
weeks....)

In the end, it can be done, but not without some 
drawbacks.  If you use skinnier line to waste less, you 
need to increase the pressure, and to keep the beer 
from being a foamy mess you'll have to raise your 
fridge temps...  Also, pulling cold air through 20 feet 
of pvc might be a chore for a little fan, since cold 
air wants to sink.  If I were you, I'd try to either 
find a place upstairs for your keg or walk some 
stairs.  I'd hate for you to do all this work and then 
have your system be inconsistent.

I hope this has helped.  Feel free to email me if you 
have any further questions...

Jay Spies
Charm City BrewWorks


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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:03:56 -0500
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: Newbie and new list member

Hey Tim,
    Welcome to the HBD.  A great place to figure stuff out and pass the
time.  A great article on cleaning and sanitizing is on "The Brewery" site.
Here is a link to the site and the article.  The article and a whole bunch
of other stuff is in the Library.

http://brewery.org/

http://realbeer.com/jjpalmer/cleaning.html

Are you wanting to go to all grain brewing?  Do you do full wort boils or
partial boils?  Extra equipment for all grain is not too much.  If you are
sticking with 5 gallons, 2 Rubbermaid round coolers and drain conversion
kits, a 7-10 gallon pot to boil in, an outdoor propane burner, some kind of
false bottom/manafold for the bottom of the mash tun, and 6-8 hours for your
first batch.  You might want to do some reading up first.  Try John Palmers
"How To Brew" book.  Very good.

http://www.howtobrew.com/

Cheers

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian






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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 16:06:00 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Removing a Sankey tap

I noted this topic in the queue and guessed that it might be a 
request for "how-to."  On that chance, here is an old post I've 
repeated every once in a while.

Jeff

I've been kegging in these (Sankey kegs) since about 1982.  First, 
*release all pressure* by pressing down on the ball valve or you'll 
get your teeth full of a heavy valve and draw tube assembly when you 
release it.  Hold a rag over it or you will get a face full of stale 
beer.  Then, using a small screwdriver, pry out the flat retaining 
ring.

Next, using the jaws of a pair of pliers as a tool, turn the valve to 
the left maybe 30 degrees, and lift it out.  It takes less time to do 
it than to describe it.  Soak the inside with dilute bleach water or 
your favorite sanitizer for a few hours and boil the valve/drawtube 
to sanitize it.  Rinse, fill with beer, reverse the above steps.

The hard part is re-installing the flat retaining ring.  You have to 
press down to compress the O-ring (which is under the valve).  To do 
this, I put a plumbing part called a reducing coupler (I think 3/4" 
to 1/2")) on top of the valve, hook a board under the lip of the keg 
top, across the coupler as a fulcrum, and sit on the other end.  Then 
I force the ring into its slot by twisting a wide screwdriver blade 
in the gap against the coupler until it's home.  It takes me about 30 
seconds.  You'll need to get a tap, of course.

I keg about half of my beers in these, the rest in 5 gallon Cornelius 
(soda) canisters, which have the advantage of being easier to fill 
and seal, using cheaper taps, and taking up less room in the fridge. 
Of course, they hold less.

There is also an easily removable replacement ring available from HB suppliers.

Good luck.  -Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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---