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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Gump On Shmoo ("Rob Moline")
  RE: Re:  CF Chiller Cleaning Help Needed ("Steven Parfitt")
  Re: Exploding Stout (Chuck Doucette)
  Rennerian coordinates (Jeff Renner)
  Cleaning CF Chiller ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Star San and the Environment ("Eric R. Theiner")
  cleaning CFC chillers (Marc Sedam)
  building the brewery stand (Marc Sedam)
  running beer lines (Alan McKay)
  Newbie and new list member (beerbuddy)
  Boston beer Haunts (charles)
  Breweries in Napa, CA ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  RE: Bazooka screen (Brian Lundeen)
  FW: Thank you (djg)
  re: Prebuilt Brewery and other things (Bruno Schmidt)
  Re: Mead Distillation & Questions ("Chad Gould")
  Re: Mead???? (Svlnroozls)
  Re: Well it figures doesn't it? ("Dan Gross")


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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:53:56 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Gump On Shmoo

			Gump On Shmoo
     "The Shmoo believed that the only way to happiness was to bring
happiness to others."

	Brewer, eh?
Gump
"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:12:32 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Re:  CF Chiller Cleaning Help Needed

(1 Recomendation to pull or push sinker throught CFC. Don't! sinkers are 
(were?) Lead. While I'm not overly concerned about leat due to my past 
esperience with soldering and making cast bullets (thousands and thousands) 
due to blood tests not showing anything significant, why ask for trouble.

(2 I have noticed a white film form on copper when left exposed to idophor 
for over an hour. Don't like it.

(3 I haven't brewed in months due to moving to a new location. I plan to 
brew this weekend and need to clean the rig so I will get it out sometime 
this week and give it a good cleaning with PBW followed by a rinse and flush 
with StarSan.

(4 Some recomend leaving sanitiser in a CFC between use.

(5 My CFC is built into my rig.

In the past, I have flushed my system when I'm finished and rolled it back 
away till the next time I brewed.

This leads to a question: Can I leave StarSan in my CFC, and all the 
associated plumbing for extended periods of time (say three months)?

Plumbing is brass fittings, copper tubing, lead free solder (antimony/Tin 
alloy I believe), and half barrel keg converted SS kettles.

rev Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck




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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 05:39:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chuck Doucette <cdoucette61 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Exploding Stout

Thanks to all who responded to me both on the HBD and
via private e-mail. It seems that my initial
inclination was the way to go. I will let you all know
how it turns out in a couple of months. I did, in
fact, rack this beer to secondary the next day (having
re-closed the lid of the fermenter as soon as I found
it). And, yes, I will use a blow-off tube the next
time I brew up a batch of this stout.

Chuck Doucette
O'Fallon, IL.



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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:34:52 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Rennerian coordinates

Dave Perry <daperry75 at shaw.ca> wrote

>Sorry no Ren coordinates the site is down or moved

It's at http://hbd.org/rennerian_table.shtml

I'll use this occasion to remind folks that the Rennerian coordinates 
is a bit of fun and silliness, but the more important thing is to 
include your location and name in your posts.  As I write every six 
months or so, this helps foster community and might help answer a 
question or put you in touch with another area brewer you didn't even 
know about.

Let me also take a moment to comment on the generally positive tone 
of posts lately.  The lack of rancor is very nice.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:48:32 -0400
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Cleaning CF Chiller

[(dis)Claimer:  Author is actually the manufacturer of referenced product 
below]

After consulting with Pat on what constitutes crass commercialism, I feel 
free to put in my $0.02 on cleaning a CF chiller.

First, let me say to Rick that I'm surprised that his boiling water rinse 
has not knocked out all infection in the CF chiller.  I've had some nasty 
stuff in mine, indeed, but still had non-infected batches coming through it.

A noteworthy incident was when I prepped my chiller by putting on the pot 
to boil, opened the valve and let water run through it while boiling, but 
proceeded with my yardwork, so I did not notice how slowly the flow 
went.  After brewing, I discovered that an obstruction combined with break 
material had slowed the flow down to the point of 1 gallon per hour.  Even 
though this obstruction was a bug's nest of some kind (yes, I admit I left 
my chiller outside for a month or so without being used) near the discharge 
this is even using dry, unhydrated yeast, so it wasn't like the potential 
microbes didn't have every chance to build some colonies in my wort.

But Ohio bugs might be tougher to kill than North Carolina bugs, so let's 
proceed on the assumption that it's soil built up in the chiller.

I use Straight-A religiously when it comes to cleaning tough items.  Yes, I 
make it, but I make it because I believe (actually, I know) it's the best 
stuff out there (no disrespect to Charlie Talley of Five Star, who is, 
indeed, a nice guy).  To clean my chiller, I fill my pot with 4-5 gallons 
of water and put on the heat while dissolving 4-8 Tbsp. of Straight-A in 
the water.  I'll take the temp up to 160 - 180 F and start running the 
solution through the chiller.  A lot of nastiness comes out for a little 
bit, then clears.  I run the entire volume, though, to be safe.  After the 
cleaning step, I rinse with hot to boiling water.

I'll also add that this method is what dislodged and flushed out the bug's 
nest referenced above.

If the Ohio Rick or anyone else has any questions about my cleaning 
procedure, shoot me an email (or post it here).

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.




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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:00:38 -0400
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Star San and the Environment

Danny Breidenbach writes:

 >A while back a few people were raving about star San. My question: what
 >kind of impact does the "used" star san have on the environment? Will
 >it trash my yard?

Considering that Star San is a blend of concentrated acids, yep, but the 
alkalinity in the soil will eventually neutralize it.  I'd put it in a 
weedy spot or in your compost pile.  Other than the corrosive aspects, it's 
pretty safe.  (That statement makes sense in the world of chemistry.)

 >Will it get the city wastewater dept on my case for dumping 5 gallons of 
stuff that I used only once? Can I launder my
 >whites with it?

No (too many people to keep up with and once it has contacted all the other 
stuff that's gone down other people's drains, it will be incidental to the 
lift stations and treatment plant.  And NO!!!!! Acids *eat* cotton.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.




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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:09:35 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: cleaning CFC chillers

I, too, have a Heart's CFC superchiller.  Great piece of
equipment and works magically well when the wort is pumped
through.  With the water hose on half-blast I can often
chill 10 gallons of wort in 10 minutes.

Before using it I recirculate a gallon of boiling water
through it for 5 minutes, then recirculate StarSan until I
need it to chill the wort.  As the gallon of boiling water
cools a bit, I add enough PBW to it for a gallon of
full-strength solution.  This is used in the next step...

I have always cleaned the CFC immediately after use via
recirculating the gallon of hot PBW solution through the
system in the *reverse* direction of wort flow for 15
minutes, flushing out with regular water, then recirculating
StarSan for five minutes and drying.

Haven't seen any black crud yet.  Every now and again I hook
up the garden hose to the wort pipe and blast the hell out
of it.  The exit water always looks good.

- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:37:00 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: building the brewery stand

I'm now trying to create a steel stand for my brewery.  The
goal is to have the system on lockable casters so I can roll
it in and out of the house easily.

What I've done to date is buy some steel "L" braces (they
have a series of holes every half inch...used to support
structures) at Lowes, bolts, casters, iron gas piping, and a
general concept of what I want to do.  Here's what I've come
up with...

I want to create a three-tiered system.  The highest tier
would be the HLT, but would NOT need a flame source.  I can
heat the water and pump it up to the HLT when finished.  The
second tier will be the mash tun, and the lowest tier will
be the kettle.

My main question is whether I should build a frame AROUND
the existing burners for structural purposes, or simply
build one tall stand for the HLT out of these braces.  I'll
attempt an ASCII version:

                                            __________
                      _________ |                     |
_________ |                   | |                     |
|________|_|________| |__________|
kettle                mashtun       HLT


So the question is whether I should build a steel frame
around each of the three "towers" or just set the kettle and
mashtun burners on the bottom rack and build the HLT tower
only.

I know this will get screwy when I post it, but hope that
most of the concept comes through.

Cheers!
Marc


- --

Marc Sedam
Associate Director
Office of Technology Development
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105
Chapel Hill, NC  27599-4105

919.966.3929  (phone)
919.962.0646  (fax)
OTD site :  http://www.research.unc.edu/otd
Monthly Seminar Info:
http://www.research.unc.edu/otd/seminar/




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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:41:31 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: running beer lines


Folks,

I want to keep my keg fridge in the basement and run lines up to
the kitchen counter (about 20 feet).  Would this work?

Run a loop of PVC (2") from the keg fridge along the basement
ceiling and then up through the floor under the counter.  
Basically there and back.  Insulate the outside of it and
run the beer lines through it.  Use a computer fan to 
circulate cold air from the beer fridge.

Anyone tried something like this before?

cheers,
 -Alan

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site 


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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:29:54 +0000
From: beerbuddy at attbi.com
Subject: Newbie and new list member

Wow, only read a couple days worth of digests, but I 
love the wealth of information. A little about myself. 
I'm a mid-30s professional, currently living in North 
Bend, Washington, but my job moves me around every 
couple of years or so (moved up from Ventura, California 
a year ago). Because of some of the moves, my beer 
brewing has been a little halting. I've brewed four 
batches of beer (5 gallons) all from kits, one batch of 
wine from a kit, and just bottled a gallon of cider this 
past weekend. It's time to grow up (at least to 
adolescense) and stop using kits. I've got basic 
equipment, a primary and a carboy, a few airlocks and 
miscellaneous tubing and stuff, and, of course, a 
hydrometer so I know how much alcohol I'm actually 
making! Any recommendations for easy brews using basic 
equipment would be greatly appreciated. I tend to like 
the medium dark, not too bitter brews, like nut brown 
ales. 

One other question, although I know there are an 
infinite number of answers to this. I'm trying to find a 
good method for cleaning and sanitizing. Is this really 
a two step process, cleaning AND sanitizing, or are they 
done at the same time? I've used one step, without 
rinsing once; bleach then rinse a couple of times; and a 
straight-A then rinse once. I've never had a problem 
with contamination, but I want to avoid the possibility 
as much as I can. 

Any recommendations are greatly appreciated, and please 
feel free to e-mail me off the list, if you prefer. 

Timothy
beerbuddy at attbi.com
North Bend, WA


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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:34:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: charles at thestewarts.com
Subject: Boston beer Haunts

One word - Redbones.

Anytime I'm anywhere near Boston, I make a point of a
pilgrimage to the place.  See http://www.redbones.com
for directions, what's on tap, etc.  And make sure you
have dinner there - they have a BBQ regional sampler
plate that is unbelievable for a place so far North.

Chip Stewart
Gaithersburg, MD
Charles at TheStewarts.com

On Tue, 27 August 2002, John Baxter Biggins inquired
about Boston beer haunts:
> 
> Will be travelling to Boston (specifically Harvard in
> Cambridge).  Need 
> advice on the good places to go.  Note: will only be
> there a day, so please 
> tell me the outstanding, must-see bars/breweries.
> 
> Private email OK
> 
>  -jb


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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:49:32 -0700
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: Breweries in Napa, CA

Hi,
  Since my wife is dragging me to the Napa wineries for our anniversary, so
I told her we had to stop at any breweries in the area.  After some
Googling, I've found Downtown Joe's & possibly Napa Valley Ale Works (some
sites said it was closed).  I also know of Calistoga Inn (Napa Valley
Brewery), Plaza Ale House (Sonoma), & Sonoma Mt Brewery (Glen Ellen).  Are
there any others in the immediate area?
Thanks


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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:48:33 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Bazooka screen

Dennis Collins writes:
> 
> I have an additional suggestion, use some sort of screen in 
> the kettle. There are a couple of options.  I've heard many 
> folks here on HBD rave about the Bazooka screen (I've never 
> used one, but how can all these folks be wrong?), or I've got 
> plans to build a Pancake Screen on my website.  Either of 
> these options should work great for keeping whole, or pellet 
> hops out of the drained wort, or at least keep the particles 
> small enough so that they can be easily flushed out.

All those folks aren't wrong, Dennis, but they also do not represent the
full range of experiences. The Bazooka will not keep pellet hops out of the
fermenter. They pass right through the mesh. At least until such time as
wort stops flowing because the gooey break material has totally blinded the
thing. If you don't get gooey break material in your kettle, I suspect you
won't have a problem. I also discovered on the last batch that some whole
hops provided an excellent filter bed and the wort flowed out without a
problem in spite of the goo. I had 2 oz in, but I figure an ounce should be
plenty to provide the filtering function. This is not a big deal, even
though I'm a confirmed pellet hopper. An ounce of Tettnang (it's what I
have) whole hops will now find its way into every batch, whatever the style.
So, I'm not going to rave about the Bazooka, but I will let out a contented
belch in its honour. Thanks for the "eval" unit, Wayne.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Burping at [314,829] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:10:04 -0400
From: djg at ccy.com
Subject: FW: Thank you

Dave:

On behalf of all the brewers who take the time through their local club to
send an entry to a COC I want to thank you for your timely posting and
mailing of the results of the Lager competition. Our club, along with many
others I'm sure, was disgusted with the way the IPA competition was
handled. You conducted a COC the way it is supposed to be done: In one
sitting with the results mailed and posted ASAP. Thank you for taking this
seriously!

Dan Gestwick
Niagara Association of Homebrewers



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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:17:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bruno Schmidt <brunos at icox.com>
Subject: re: Prebuilt Brewery and other things

>Has anyone ever bought the Brew Comerade from Stainless Steel 
>Specialists?  I was wondering because it looks like a nice system, but I
>would like to know what any other brewers might think of it.  I have
>tried contacting the company but they seem kind of hard to get a hold
>of.
	Well, I haven't used the Brew Comerade, but I have been to them(I
live in the Montreal area) to buy a fridge controler, and some PBW. I 
dealt with Yvon, and he showed me around. The Comerade looks really well
built, and they'll change customize it in any way you want (they are all
custom built, although they have a fer premade trees around).

	They are super friednly and helpful, I would just try calling them
again, maybe they are in slomo for the summer, but when they are there,
I'm sure they will be glad to answer any questions. He was willing to show
me everything they had, draw diagrams, etc...

	Also as fasr as I know it is a mini system based on the stuff they
do for brew pubs (and the finnish looks that way too).

	Anyway, Bye, Bruno





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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 20:29:22 -0400
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Mead Distillation & Questions

> I just transferred my mead to secondary (traditional clover honey mead
> started on Mead Day-8/03). It was 2.5 gal into a 3 gal. carboy. In the 12
> hours following, the color has changed to a much darker yellow, bordering
in
> tannish. Is this caused by excessive oxidation during the transfer (is
this
> a typical problem for meads)? Or is yeast trub just settling out from the
> transfer (and this color is typical for a mead)? I would have liked to
> reduce the potential for oxygenation during the transfer, but was limited
by
> equipment. I hope I haven't ruined it.

In the secondary, my first mead was a sort of brown-tan color. In a glass,
it ended up being a crystal clear wine-yellow. At this point, I think you
are fine.





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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 20:32:21 EDT
From: Svlnroozls at aol.com
Subject: Re: Mead????

Aw, come on now.  I am very disappointed to hear such a hard-hearted putdown 
of other peoples tastes (Many of us actually like mead!  Maybe you just 
haven't had the right one.  That's what I say to people who say they don't 
like beer.).  There's absolutely nothing constructive about "Beer Phantom"s 
comment and it just adds another tally mark to the "People Suck" side of my 
running mental scoresheet of humanity.  I've no wish to insult anyone here, 
but I'm having a hard time holding back as I compose this note.  BP, there's 
folks out there who hate beer and are disgusted by the taste but happily 
enough they don't post here.  The mead question is perfectly valid on this 
forum, and indeed, I'm interested in the answers myself, but comments like 
yours are unwelcome and offensive.  Really, there's no accounting for taste 
(or lack thereof as you demonstrate) so please keep it to yourself if you 
have nothing constructive to say.  No wonder you like to stay anonymous.

C.T. Davis
L.A., CA

In a message dated 8/26/02 9:11:32 PM, firestarter at flameme.com writes:

<< Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:06:28 -0500
From: "Beer Phantom" <beer_phantom at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:  Mead ????

Mark Tumarkin inquires:

"Now, I know it's illegal to distill, and you all know I'd never do 
something like that. But just thinking hypothetically, if one were to 
distill a mead,what would you call the product? Mead brandy just doesn't 
seem right, though I guess it works. Is there a better name for this?"

Why yes Mark indeed there is a better name for this.  I believe the 
appropriate term would be "hog vomit".

For pete's sake, as if mead wasn't bad enough already.  It is really worth 
breaking the law to make something so seemingly disgusting?

Repulsed in anonimity,

The Beer Phantom >>


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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:22:24 -0400
From: "Dan Gross" <degross at starpower.net>
Subject: Re: Well it figures doesn't it?

John asks:
>How open are brew pubs and
>craft brewers to selling base malts to walk in
>customers?  What is the most polite way to ask?

Keeping in mind that brewpubs are businesses I would approach it this way.
First become a good customer, then inquire about the possibility of
purchasing a small quantity of malt on occasion.  Most businesses are happy
to help out their best customers because they know you are the best kind of
advertising they can get.  There is nothing better than word-of-mouth.


Dan Gross
Olney, Md



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