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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Homebrew Digest #402 (April 19, 1990)  (Kenneth R. van Wyk)
  Blowing it Off (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Boy Scout lessons (HOLTSFOR)
  Re, more-or-less: Too-Sweet Steam (Clay Phipps)
  2nd Annual Dallas-Denver Beer Run Trip Report (Doug Roberts)
  re: 2nd Annual Dallas-Denver Beer Run Trip Report (Dick Dunn)
  fruit color in melomel (Dick Dunn)
  Ceramic Top Bottles (Enders)
  Beer judge training report (Ted Manahan)
  stainless steel pot wanted (Chris Steinbroner)
  This is disturbing (Doug Roberts)


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Date: Thu, 19 Apr 90 08:55:56 EDT
From: Kenneth R. van Wyk <krvw at cert.sei.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #402 (April 19, 1990) 

hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas) writes:
>> ...
>> I recommend you use the largest
>> diameter tubing you can figure out a way to attach to the top
>> of the carboy.  I have heard of numerous brewers using a
>> tubing close to 2" in diameter, shoved directly into the top
>> of the carboy.

My local supplier (Country Wines, Pittsburgh, PA, (412) 366-0151)
sells 1" _ID_ clear tubing which has an OD that fits perfectly (and
snugly) into my 5 gallon carboy.  I use about a 4' piece of the tubing
(which is something in the order of $1.25/ft) and plug one end into
the carboy and the other into a 5 gallon bucket full of water.  During
primary fermentation (several successful batches with this method),
foam/scum/etc. generally gets blown out the tube.  I have a tough time
imagining anything in my (strained) wort that could clog the blow-by.

After primary, BTW, I rack the beer into another carboy and put a
bubbler on it, so that my beer isn't sitting on top of all the
protein/yeast sludge.  Whether or not this step is necessary, or worth
the added air exposure to the wort, I'm not certain.  I saw, however,
in a recent Zymurgy which listed some statistics on award-winning
homebrews, that some 68% (or so) of the winning beers used a two-stage
fermentation.  Please, I'm not arguing which is better, only pointing
out what I do.  (Read: flames to /dev/null, please.)

Final (whew) note.  As a relative novice in homebrew, I'd like to
thank the contributors (and owners!) of this list.  I've found it to
be an extremely valuable information source (until this posting,
anyway...  :-).

Disclaimer: I have not affiliation with Country Wines other than being
   a satisfied customer.

Cheers,

Ken van Wyk

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Date: Wed, 18 Apr 90 9:35:37 PST
From: Martin A. Lodahl <hplabs!pbmoss!mal>
Subject: Blowing it Off

In HOMEBREW Digest #401, Russ Gelinas is considering going to closed
fermentation, and has a few questions:
"	... I'd like to try a closed ferment (is this the same as the
blow-off?)."

That depends on the size of the batch, relative to the size of the
carboy.  If you're brewing 5-gallon batches in a 7-gallon carboy,
it's a rare recipe that will produce enough foam to fill the
remaining volume.  

 "Papazian says to pitch the yeast in the carbuoy, and then seal
it with a water seal, but then where does the blow-off take place?"

In effect, the blowoff tube is a kind of water seal.  While one end
is attached to the carboy, the other is under water in a suitable
receptacle (large jar, jug, pail, etc.).  How large this is depends
on how much of the wort you expect to waste in this fashion.  I use
a gallon jug, but a couple of times it hasn't been enough.

"If you ... put a blow-off tube instead, when *do* you seal it?"

I usually exchange the blowoff tube for the bubbler when the head
begins to fall.  That can be as soon as two days after the start of
fermentation, or as late as a week, depending on weather & recipe. 
I've heard tales of infection beginning in the blowoff bucket and
traveling up through the tube to spoil the beer, so I don't like to
leave the tube in place longer than necessary.

I should add at this point that though I'm convinced of the benefits
of closed fermentation, I'm not convinced that a blowoff tube is the
best answer.  Sometime in the future I plan to try a 7-gallon
carboy.

Keep brewing!

= Martin A. Lodahl    Pac*Bell Minicomputer Operations Support Staff =
= pacbell!pbmoss!mal  -or-  mal at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM      916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =



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Date:     Thu, 19 Apr 90 08:12 EST
From: <HOLTSFOR%MSUKBS.BITNET at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:  Boy Scout lessons


Greetings Homebrewers --

When I was scraping petrifed wort from my stovetop last weekend I noticed one
patch that wiped clean with minimal effort.  I thought I remembered wiping
that spot after the first boil-over with a soapy sponge.  Last night before
beginning to mash I wiped down the whole stovetop with a wet sponge that I
had squeezed a couple drops of dishwashing soap onto.  I was very pleased to
find, five hours later, that cleaning the stovetop was *MUCH* easier than
usual.  It occurs to me that I should have learned this lesson many years
ago.  When I was a Boy Scout we soaped the outside of our pots before
cooking with them.  The campfire always turned the pots black with soot, but
if they had been soaped the soot would come off easily.  Woe to the
Tenderfoot who forgot to soap the pots and had to spend the evening applying
elbow-grease and SOS to those blackened hunks of aluminum.

Adios, Tim Holtsford

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Date: Mon, 16 Apr 90 21:17:46 -0700
From: hplabs!garth!phipps (Clay Phipps)
Subject: Re, more-or-less: Too-Sweet Steam

References: <HOMEBREW Digest #398, 04/13/90>

"JEFF CASEY / (617)253-0885" <CASEY at NERUS.PFC.MIT.EDU> wrote:

>Bill Pemberton says:
>>It seems (to me at least) that most of the brews I have made have been a 
>>touch too sweet for my liking.  ....  I have used several different yeasts...
>
>One real problem I found is that crystal malt smells and tastes so good 
>(while brewing) that it is a real test of your self control and 
>determination to add in only the required amount and no more.  

With neoprohibitionists having the potential for seriously negative 
impacts on the enjoyment of brewing, I refuse to exercise "self control"
when deciding how much crystal malt to add to my brews.

>One of my best red bitters had none of my "trademark" sweetness, 
>although I'd used the recipe before -- when I checked my notes, 
>I had run out of crystal, and had only been able to add in what was 
>necessary, not tip in a little more "for grins".

Try using 2 wrongs to make a right: add more hops to balance your 
crystal "for grins" malt.  2 lbs. of 40L crystal is in my current batch.
My amberish brews without crystal malt (when I've already started the
brew-pot and I realize I'm out of the stuff) seem awfully watery nowadays,
but you should, of course, brew to *your* taste, not mine.

>if you are an extract brewer, stick to the pale extracts 
>and modify them with your own specialty grains for darker brews.  

>The amber and dark extracts often have other sugars or caramel added [...]

I agree with the recommendation to use light extracts as a base.
I just can't see making the effort to finesse amounts of the dark grains
in a brew, when I don't know the composition of the dark grains 
in the extract.  Yes, I'm certain that there are unknowns in the light
extracts, but I assume that there must be far fewer unknowns in them.

>Yeasts: if you are using an unattenuative yeast, there will be more 
>unfermentables left over, and the brew will be sweeter.  

"William F. Pemberton" <wfp5p at euclid.acc.virginia.edu> wrote more:
>
>Several people have written me in regard to my problem with too sweet beer.
>I didn't post any recipes, but one reason is that
>I have used several different ones, but here is a typical example:
>    0.5 lb.  Crystal Malt
>    1 can    Unhoped Amber Extract
>    1 can    Unhoped Light Extract
>    1.5 oz   Northern Brewer's Hops (for boil)
>    0.25 oz  Cascade Hops (for finish)
>    Whitbread Ale Yeast
>[...] it was just too sweet for my likings.  
>My current mutation of the above recipe uses a lager yeast 
>instead of an ale yeast (making a steam beer).  

The recipe for Anchor Steam provided by a now-defunct homebrew store 
used 2 oz. of Northern (alpha: ~10%?) for boiling.  If your hops had 
suffered in storage, you might have gotten the effect of one oz. or less: 
only half of the hops bitterness called for in the recipe (25% low relative 
to recipe, compounded by ~40% loss in storage (see someone else's posting)).  
I could imagine that a beer too sweet for your tastes resulted.
I once put 3 oz. or so of Chinook (alpha: 13%) in a recipe by mistake.
The result was quite hoppy and quite drinkable, but not for everybody.

>I had hoped that the yeast was the culprit and 
>the use of a lager yeast would do the trick.

Your history with yeasts is backwards from mine.
Switching from lager yeast to ale yeast in the heat of summer definitely
changed the taste of my Steam-alike recipe, but it wasn't in sweetness.
I haven't experimented in any serious way with yeasts, but attenuation
(See Casey, above) might be a factor.

>The two brands of extract that I use are John Bull and Munton & Fison.

Try using 2 cans of the light extract, and forget the "amber" stuff.

>I've tried several variations off of this, and all have worked well, 
>but still too sweet (for me).  Several people on the net (thanks to all) 
>suggested cutting back on the Crystal Malt.  
>I think I will try a version with that eliminated.

No!  Anything but that!  Crystal-maltiness is next to godliness.  :-)
I suppose it could be regarded as use of the scientific method, though.

So now you have plenty of excuses to brew: applying the scientific method
to canned mystery extracts, hop freshness, yeast attenuation, and crystal 
malts (don't forget to try a complete assortment of Lovibond ratings :-).


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Date: Thu, 19 Apr 90 08:49:16 MDT
From: roberts%studguppy at LANL.GOV (Doug Roberts)
Subject: 2nd Annual Dallas-Denver Beer Run Trip Report

[Beer Run Trip Report]

Now these guys _like_ beer!

- --Doug

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Date: 19 Apr 90 08:42:31 MST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hplms2!gatech!ico.isc.com!raven!rcd (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: 2nd Annual Dallas-Denver Beer Run Trip Report

jmellby at ngstl1.csc.ti.com (John Mellby) writes, among much else...
>...The two stores complemented each other well and we cleaned them both out of 
> several brands...

And folks wonder why Coloradans don't like Texans!!!  They come up here to
clean us out of beer to take back home.  You can't hit much harder than
that...running folks out of beer.  Fortunately they didn't find the stores
with the best selection, and **WE'RE NOT TELLING WHERE THEY ARE**.

(Enjoy, fellas.)

Somebody needs to work on Texas legislators to get their laws loosened up,
if it's really that hard to get good beer.  I mean, if I lived in Texas
instead of here, I'd *need* a good drink!

Oh, it's Wynkoop (say wine-coop), not Wyncoop.
- ---
Dick Dunn	{ncar;ico;stcvax}!raven!rcd		(303)494-0965
			or	rcd at raven.uucp

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Date: 19 Apr 90 08:48:50 MST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hplms2!gatech!ico.isc.com!raven!rcd (Dick Dunn)
Subject: fruit color in melomel

Fruits often don't leave much of their color by the time a melomel is all
done fermenting out and clarifying.  I wouldn't worry too much...why try to
add color?  People unfamiliar with melomel won't know what to expect; those
who are familiar with it will just wonder where the color came from.

Here are a few of my observations on what happens with fruit colors...

raspberry	black ones leave you with a nice deep red.  Red leave you
		with a lighter red, but still a lot of color
boysenberry	like black raspberry
blueberry	only a little color, like a faint lavender
pomegranate	almost no color!  This one started out deep red, as you'd
		expect, but just kept getting lighter.  By the time it was
		bottled, it was a pale yellow, lighter than an apricot
		melomel we'd made
strawberry	don't know about melomel, but in wine it fades out almost
		completely.
	
A thought in passing...has anyone tried plums in mead?
- ---
Dick Dunn	{ncar;ico;stcvax}!raven!rcd		(303)494-0965
			or	rcd at raven.uucp

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Date: Thu, 19 Apr 90 15:39:57 -0500
From: Enders <enders at plains.NoDak.edu>
Subject: Ceramic Top Bottles

     Does anyone know of a good source for Grolsch type ceramic top
bottles, esp. in 1 liter or larger sizes.  I have one case of 1 liter
bottles (9 bottles to the case) and would like to obtain more, but the beer
that came in them doesn't seem to be available locally anymore, and it 
wasn't very good (Altenmunster (sp?), it had a copper taste to it).

     9 bottles/case beats 24 any day, and you don't have to wrestle with
crown caps either.

Todd Enders                            arpa: enders at plains.nodak.edu
Computer Center                        uucp: ...!uunet!plains!enders
Minot State University                 bitnet: enders at plains
Minot, ND 58701


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Date: Thu, 19 Apr 90 15:23:08 mdt
From: Ted Manahan <hplabs!hpldola!tedm>
Subject: Beer judge training report
Full-Name: Ted Manahan

I attended a beer judge training class in Boulder CO. last night (Wed.
Apr. 18). There may be general interest in the program, so I am posting
a "trip report". 

This was a three hour class given by the American Homebrewers
Association. Cost was $5 at the door, $3.50 in advance. The purpose of
the seminar was to train judges for the national homebrew competition,
which starts next week. About 70 people attended.

The agenda was:

	Opening Remarks		Dave Welker, Judge Director
				National Homebrew Competition

	Beer Judge Certification Program
				Jim Homer, Co-Director
				Beer Judge Certification Program

	Judge Ethics and Responsibilities
				Dave Welker

	Flavor Evaluation and Technique
				Charlie Papazian, President
				American Homebrewers Association

Dave Welker talked about the need for qualified judges for the national
competition. People want constructive feedback on their beers, and it is
the responsibility of the judges to give them that feedback.

Jim Homer gave a pitch for the Beer Judge Certification Program. I plan
to take the certification test as soon as I can. The next Colorado based
test will be May 22. (I will be out of town that day; bad luck!)

Charlie Papazian opened his talk with a description of the best way to
evaluate all beer components. This includes look, smell, and taste, as
well as mouth feel and even the sound when opening the bottle. There was
a handout with a "flavor wheel" that lists beer flavors, flavor
terminology, and some text from the Zymurgy 1987 special trouble shooting
issue.

After the above, we got to taste some beer! We started out with some bad
beers. 

Year old Leinenkugles (sp) light, to illustrate how old beer tastes. I
had a hard time saying it was any worse than light beer usually is.

There were three "doctored" beers to illustrate DMS, chlora-phenolic
(sp), and phenolic/medicinal smells. I had a hard time identifying the
DMS smell, but the others almost took my nose off! 

We then tasted some commercial beers. Old "Hope Lager", "Paulaner
Hefe-Weizen" (sp), and "Red Hook ESB". 

For me the highlight of the evening came when we got to taste some "Toad
Spit Stout". Charlie said this was the last from his original batch of
Toad Spit, brewed 13 years ago! It was oxidized and smelled somewhat like
sherry, but had a very complex flavor profile. Not bad; now I have had a
taste of history!

We then did a trial judging of three homebrews: an Octoberfest, a Bock
beer, and a spice beer. I consistently rated the brews higher than the
more experienced judges. The spice beer really threw me, as I had never
tasted anything like it before.

We also tasted a still mead that was about 6 years old. This was the
first time I had tasted a mead - it was really strong (flavor and
alcohol). I can see how a person could grow to like it.

If anyone else who was at the seminar wants to post additions or
corrections to this report, please go ahead!

Ted Manahan
tedm at hpldola.hp.com

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Date: Thu, 19 Apr 90 17:09:10 PDT
From: hesh at lll-crg.llnl.gov (Chris Steinbroner)
Subject: stainless steel pot wanted

if anybody can point me to a source of
inexpensive SS pots i'd appreciate it.
if you have a used SS pot you want to
sell me, drop me a note.

thanks,

- -- hesh

p.s.  looking for 24 qt. or so

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Date: Thu, 19 Apr 90 21:30:43 MDT
From: roberts%studguppy at LANL.GOV (Doug Roberts)
Subject: This is disturbing

I dry hopped (in the secondary) two of my last three batches of
all-grain beers, and they both remained active and very cloudy for
three weeks.  They were still cloudy at kegging time. This is
puzzling, because I have frequently hopped in the primary, with
excellent results. My last batch, in fact, was hopped in the primary
and it was crystal clear after just two weeks. I used a different
yeast in the cloudy batches, Munton & Fisson, but I've used it often
enough in the past with no ill effects.

The beer doesn't taste bad, so I don't think it's contaminated, but I
have never had such cloudy batches. Has anyone else experienced
cloudiness as a result of dry hopping in the secondary? I used
1/2 oz. Saaz pellets for finishing in each case.

- --Doug
================================================================
Douglas Roberts                |
Los Alamos National Laboratory |I can resist anything
Box 1663, MS F-609             |  except temptation.
Los Alamos, New Mexico 87545   |  ...
(505)667-4569                  |Oscar Wilde
dzzr at lanl.gov                  |
================================================================

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #403, 04/20/90
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