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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Extraction Effeni. ("Partner")
  Re: new beer tower ("Kent Fletcher")
  re: Efficiency problems ("Steve Alexander")
  lager starters (Marc Sedam)
  Re: Straffe Hendrik & candi sugar ("Sven Pfitt")
  Skimming and splooge ("Sven Pfitt")
  Re: Candi Sugar (Jeff Renner)
  re: Lager Starter Question ("The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty")
  Re: Dissolved Oxygen Research (Demonick)
  Re: Lager Starter Question (Jeff Renner)
  Re: White Labs 802 Czech Budejovice Lager (Bill Wible)
  Re: Candi Sugar (DHinrichs)
  should I refrigerate? (Sethmfisher)
  Crankandstein Grain Mills ("Cave, Jim")
  Fermenting in primary (BrianS)
  Cider and Perry at the GBBF ("H. Dowda")
  barleywine ("Christopher T. Ivey")


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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 00:47:33 -0500
From: "Partner" <Partner at Netdirect.net>
Subject: Extraction Effeni.

I've never seen so much  drivel in my life until tonight's reply's

only one person got it right

From: "Dan Gross" <degross at starpower.net>
Subject: RE: Efficiency Problems

Andrew,
Do you check the PH of your water?  I have had pretty poor extraction rates
when my mash pH is above 5.5.  This should not be a concern with darker
beers since dark grains will lower the PH. But if you are brewing lagers
with almost no dark grains that could be part of the problem.
Dan Gross
Olney, Md

AND what does a RIMS have to do with it?????????????

i have one!!!!!!! a  SABCO..... and i do it goooooooooooood!!!
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------
Andrew,
I assume you're brewing 5 gallon batches?  Your 5 gallon coolers are really
small for this purpose.  You could probably improve your yield if you could
achieve a mash-out.  Unfortunately, you won't be able to do a mash-out with
a 5 gallon tun, as it would require infusing more water than you can hold,
you would need a 10 gallon tun, adn a 10 gallon hlt would be better, as
well.  Barring upsizing your equipment, your only other real option is to
make the most of what you've gott [sorry ;)]  You want to sparge until your
runoff is 1.010, maybe 1.008.  You might try experimenting with batch
sparging, but then again, you can only get so much water on top of your mash
in that tun of yours.  Bottom line is, you're gonna make good brew with what
you've got for now, so who cares about a little low efficiency?  You're at
60% for a recipe base on 75%?  Just modify the recipe accordingly, multiply
all of the malts/adjuncts by 1.2, and enjoy!  What's 20% more malt in a 5
gallon batch?  Wait until you get into RIMS or  HERMS before you get that
anal!

Who are we talking about being ANAL here?


this was pathetic reply's,  everyone knows your PH is to be 5.2-5.6

that    IS the answer and I'm sticking to it

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh



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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 00:19:30 -0700
From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher at socal.rr.com>
Subject: Re: new beer tower

Bryan Gros asked about
> I'm looking for advice on the best place to purchase a new tower
> for my kegerator type fridge. Then one I have can fit 3 cornys,
> so I need a tower with 3 taps.
(snip)
> I see at Rapids they have the standard 3" towers with two and
> three taps. About $175. Probably what I'll get.
(snip)
> Will Rapids sell to me direct?

Yes, Rapids will sell direct, and they don't seem to mind how small an order
you place.  Ordered from them a couple of times myself and have recommended
them to fellow brewclub members.  Good people to deal with, and they have
quite a variety of towers.  You can also find draft equipment on eBay,
though I don't remember seeing a 3 tapper.  Worth a look, though.

Kent Fletcher
brewing in So Cal




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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 07:03:16 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Efficiency problems

Andrew E Hipkiss asks 

>I am relatively new to all-grain brewing and am having some serious
>difficulties with my extraction.

This is an extremely common - even normal problem for the early
steps into all-grain.

>[...] mashing at 150 F [...] 90 minutes at a rate of 1.2 [qt/lb]
>[...]  I use 5.25 gallons of sparge water[...] at 168F.
>My sparge last around 70 minutes, 2 quarts per 5 min.

These figure sound decent.

> My final runnings are usually high
>around 1.016 - 1.018, and my overall efficiency is around 60% according to
>Promash.  Any ideas?  Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.

Promash will calculate efficiency 6 ways from Sunday, but I assume from
your description that you are seeing figures *like*:
0.5lbs of crystal + 8 lbs of PA malt yielding 5 gal of 1.036 wort.
That's 60% brewhouse or practical efficiency.

The high final runnings are indicative of a poor sparge.

I have several suggestions:

1/  Implement a mashout step - bring the mash to around
167F for 20 minutes using a boiling water infusion. See
chapter 16 of John Palmer's excellent book
http://www.howtobrew.com/sitemap.html
for the calculation of the boiling infusion.  For several reasons
mashout can improve the lauterability of the gristbed. 

2/ Examine your grain crush.  Malt crushed too coarsely
will be very difficult to extract efficiently.  Get an
experienced all-grain brewer to look at it.  This problem
can be responsible for huge loss of  extraction efficiency.

3/ Mash thickness - A brewer familiar with his hardware and
the process can get good efficiency from a 1.2 qt/lb mash thickness,
but it is easier to get good efficiency in a thinner mash. I'd suggest
1.5qt/lb mash thickness until you get your numbers up. Do be
careful about the mash temperatures since an overshoot is
more damaging in a thin mash.

4/ Sparge mechanics & fluid flow.    It seems so basic, but when you
have a shallow gristbed (and we all do) it's easy to get channeling.
That is some of the inlet water flows quickly out to the boiler without
picking up much extract on the way.  There are simply spots in the
gristbed that permit the wort to flow through without much resistance.
There can be other compacted zones in the grist which get little flow.
Make sure the layer of grist over the false bottom is even and keep
the flow low at all times.  Underlet the false bottom to prevent
compaction.  Also recirculate the first several quarts of wort back
into the tun.  This aids clarity and prevents low gravity underlet
from reducing efficiency.

5/ You didn't mention pH but adjusting mash or at least water pH
can improve extraction efficiency too.   A mash pH around 5.5 or
a water pH adjusted to around 6.0 should end any question.   This
is unlikely to be a major part of the problem but occasionally it is.

6/ Fuggedaboudit - low extraction efficiency is a non-issue.
You can  resolve it with a little more malt.  If you get 60%
efficiency and your friends get 80% you'll just need to use a
third more malt than they do.  That's around $2 per 5gallon
batch - not worth worrying about.  Low efficiency sparging
can actually have a flavor advantage.  I'm an advocate of
stopping the lauter around 75%-80% of the practical limit for
better flavor and less lauter time.  No-sparge advocates
believe that beers made from the first runnings alone make the
best beers and there is something to this POV.   The fact is
that malt is so cheap compared to the HBers time that
efficiency is just demonstration that you have mastered a
proper lauter.   It's not a key to a better beer.  

I think a little more experience in the sparge/lauter and some
of the tips above will get you where you need to be.

 -S





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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 07:58:52 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: lager starters

Don Miller asks about whether 2 days at room temp THEN
cooling is good for a lager starter...

You're going to get answers all over the board on this one,
but I happen to think what you've done is great.  You get
solid yeast growth at RT, then get the yeast used to the
fermentation environment.

However, this is a procedure probably best used if you are
willing to wait for your wort to chill down to 50F as well.
If you're going to pitch the yeast as soon as the wort is
out of the chiller, then there's no reason to get the yeast
familiar with a fermentation temperature it won't see for a
while.

Put more simply...store your starter at the temperature of
the wort you plan to pitch it in.  I usually just throw it
in the fermenter as soon as the wort is chilled, but do get
a more controlled (read slightly cleaner) fermentation if I
let the wort cool overnight in my chest freezer and pitch
the next morning.  If your sanitization is good this
shouldn't be a problem.

Cheers!
- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC

Back to brewing again, but with many iron frames sitting
idly by.



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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 08:19:41 -0400
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Straffe Hendrik & candi sugar

For some reason, my messages are bouncing, so I will try again. 
Interestingly enough, on my way home from work yesterday I stopped a the 
local licquor store (TN requires beer over 6% to be sold with licquor and 
wine) and found they had Straffe Hendrik, both pale and dark. I'll try the 
pale this weekend.

 - Braam Greyling queries about Straffe Hendrik and Candi sugar

>Hi all,

>Have someone ever tried cloning the Belgium beer named Straffe >Hendrik ?  
>I am looking for a full grain recipe. Can someone help ?  >Would appreciate 
>fermenting temperature and mashing schedule info as >well.


 ....No help here...


>What should I use for a replacement of the candi sugar that they use >in 
>Belgium Beer ?

I use Inverted sugar which I make by using regular cane sugar. I use a five 
pound bag, add 1/4 cup of corn sugar, and two cups of water. Add 1ml of 
phosphoric acid and SLOWLY bring to a boil . Simmer till you get the color 
you want, but be carefull as it will darken rapidly as it looses water. I 
put this in Ball Mayson jars and save it till needed.

You can use lactic, or other acids as well, but i like the neutral taste 
characteristics of phosphoric. It is used in soda as well as brewing, so I 
don't see a issue there.

rev Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck



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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 09:31:10 -0400
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Skimming and splooge

Two days ago I skimmed the brown splooge off the top of a batch of 
hefeweissen that i have in a CCF. I put the skimmings in a glass and covered 
it with aluminium foil and placed it in the refrigerator.

I expected to see a layer of brown gunk from the brown splooge I had 
skimmed, some yeast from the foam, and some beer. Instead I now have what 
appears to be a layer of yeast that is over 50% of the volume of the mix, 
(about a half cup) and the remaining is clear liquid beer! The brown 
dissappeared!

It appears that what I thought was trub that had been carried up to the 
kreussen is in fact almost pure yeast! It must have turned brown from 
contact with the air above the kreussen as it dried.

Is this the case?

rev Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck




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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 09:55:25 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Candi Sugar

"Don Van Valkenburg" <dvanv at earthlink.net> writes:

>Belgian candi sugar is made from beets.  Thus if you can find beet 
>sugar, you are set.
>
>BTW, Stein Fillers brewing supply in Long Beach sells granulated beet sugar
>at a much lower cost than rock candi.

White granulated sugar is nearly pure sucrose and may be made from 
either cane or beets - you can't tell by taste and the package may 
not tell you. See http://www.sucrose.com/learn.html for an 
interesting, detailed and well produced site.  Be sure to click on 
the tabs at the top for the whole story.

Up here in Michigan, it's sugar beet growing country.  See 
http://www.sos.state.mi.us/history/museum/techstuf/erlyagri/beetsuga.html 
and http://www.geo.msu.edu/geo333/beetindustry.html There are a 
couple of regional brands that are beet sugar (Pioneer Sugar 
http://www.imperialsugar.com/Pioneer_Sugar/main.htm is one).

If you drive along country roads during harvest season in the "Thumb" 
(look at a map of Michigan and you will immediately know where the 
Thumb is), you'll see beets the size of footballs and larger lying 
along the road where they fell out of farm wagons.  They are also 
sold (cheap) by the pickup truck load (as are carrots) to hunters for 
deer bait (baiting deer is a long standing but controversial 
tradition in Michigan).

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 09:18:41 -0500
From: "The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty" <mikey at swampgas.com>
Subject: re: Lager Starter Question

In HBD #4034 Miller, Donald (HQ BIC) Spaketh:
===
I have not had much success in brewing lagers but I'm not letting that
stop me.  I would like to ask a quick questions regarding starters.  I
am building a starter with 2 cups of water and one pint of DME. 
===

Well, for "starters" (yuk, yuk, yuk. I kill me), you really need a
larger starter. A pint starter is OK for ales, but consider at least a
quart starter for lagers, especially if you'll be starting the ferment
cold. 

A gallon starter (decant the spent beer before pitching) is even
better. I generally use  at  a 2 gallon starter for a 6 gallon batch (or
pitch on the cake from a previous batch), and never have fermentation
problems (and positive airlock pressure within a couple of hours).

Also, taking a pint starter from room temp down to 50 degrees is
probably not a great idea. While I will crash out my two gallon
starters this way, this is probably a bad idea for smaller starter
volumes and will likely cause much of the yeast to go dormant (and
stay that way if pitched into cold wort -- may be less of a problem if
pitched into warmer wort). 

Here's my usual starter routine:

Start with either an XL smack pack, tube or yeast built up from a
slant:

Pitch into a couple of quarts of cooled wort, if I'm feeling lucky, or
pitch into to 500 ml, then step up to 2 qts. I generally use a stir
plate because I found one cheap. I don't really recomend running out
and buying one of these at full price. All this is done at room temp

Once that has femented out, I sanitize my fermentation vessel, make up
1-2 gallons of 1040 wort, cool it, rack into the fermentor and pitch
my two litre starter. 

Once the large starter has femented out (again at room temp), I
usually crash it in the chest freezer down to my pitching temp, which
is usually 44-48F. 

Normally (if I have any canned wort on hand) I decant the spent wort
from the starter and pitch a quart or so of fresh wort on to the
starter cake the night before pitching.

Before racking the cooled (44-48F) wort into the fermentor, I'll
decant the spent wort from the starter yeast cake if I didn't do it
the night before, and then rack the cooled wort into the fermentor.

Optionally (if I have it on hand) I'll give the wort two minutes of
pure O2. This seems to give a better fermentation (usually, but not
always).

Since I've obviously invested a lot of effort into this
pain-in-the-*ss yeast cake, I usually pitch one or two more beers on
the same cake. The first beers are usually of moderate gravity; but
the last beer might be a bock or doppelbock.

Hope that helps -- tafkaKs


====
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html



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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 07:42:14 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Dissolved Oxygen Research

Thank you for publishing your results. 

I would be interested in the DO concentration of boiled tap water. 

My suggestion would be to do a time-based boil experiement.  Take initial
DO reading, then bring water to boil and periodically take a DO reading.  
The experiment should run until DO levels stabilize.

Thanks again.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 10:43:19 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Lager Starter Question

Don Miller <dmiller at hq.dcma.mil> writes:

>I have not had much success in brewing lagers but I'm not letting that stop
>me.  I would like to ask a quick questions regarding starters.  I am
>building a starter with 2 cups of water and one pint of DME.

This doesn't make sense - equal volumes (2 cups = 1 pint) and dry 
malt extract?  Something's wrong here.  Dan McConnell of Yeast 
Culture Kit Co. recommends a low gravity starter of 50 grams DME per 
liter, and this works for me.  I also use a pinch (1/16 tsp) yeast 
energy.

>I let the wort starter coll to 74 degrees and then poured the Czech 
>Pils yeast into the bottle.  I let the starter go for about 48 hours 
>at room temperature.
>Yesterday I moved the starter to my chest freezer which is set at 50 degrees
><snip>
>My questions are:  1) Should I have this
>starter at the 50 degrees right now or did I jump the gun?

I do it your way, but others like to start it off cool.  No big deal 
wither way, IMO.

>2) Will the 48 hours at room temperature screw up (technical term) 
>the starter?

No.  It actually allows for faster reproduction, which I consider to 
be good.  After two days at room temperature, it is probably pretty 
nearly fermented out if it is a large pitch in a low gravity starter.

>3) How long before the starter is ready when fermenting at the lower 
>termperature of 50 degrees?

It will certainly take longer than at room temperature.  You could 
watch the air lock for an indication.

I like to make a liter starter in a gallon jug (lots of air) at room 
temp, then decant it after it settles out and pour another liter on 
the yeast.  I decant this just before pitching, sometimes after 
cooling to 50F.  I do try to pitch into wort that is close to the 
temperature of the yeast.  If I pitch it into room temperature wort, 
it is only that temperature a short time as I continue to chill with 
an immersion chiller to 48-50F fermentation temperature.

As a very raw data point, last evening I restarted a cup of thick 
yeast I harvested on July 1 and kept refrigerated since.  I had 
fermented a CAP and a light Helles, so this was third generation.  It 
started right up in the liter of starter in a gallon jug in a few 
hours and is bubbling.  This was pretty old yeast but it smelled 
fine.  I hope it will produce a good beer.

Jeff

- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 10:45:02 -0400
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: White Labs 802 Czech Budejovice Lager

>I'm considering using this yeast for a doppelbock in the
>near future.

White Labs 802 Czech Budejovice Lager is a great yeast
for Czech Pilseners or light lagers.

For something more substantial, like your Dopplebock,
White Labs recommends (according to their free poster
chart): WLP820 Octoberfest, WLP838 Southern German Lager,
or WLP920 Old Bavarian Lager (Platinum Strain, seasonal
availability).

I made a Dopplebock last year with the WLP838 Southern
German Lager, and I was less than impressed.

I thought about trying the WLP885 Zurich Lager (also a
Platinum Strain) for a Dopplebock, even though it's not
a first choice on their chart.  This is reputed to be
Samichlaus yeast.  I'll probably try that one this year.

Bill




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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:51:00 -0500 
From: DHinrichs at Quannon.com
Subject: Re: Candi Sugar


From: "Don Van Valkenburg" <dvanv at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Candi Sugar

> The only difference between your table sugar and the clear
> candi sugar is that most table sugar is cane sugar.  Belgian candi sugar
is
> made from beets.   Thus if you can find beet sugar, you are set.

Actually it is the other way around in the US. Check the packaging if it is
cane sugar it will say so on the package if it is not specified it is most
likely beet sugar. Due to import quota's imposed on non-USA cane sugar, most
sugar comes from beets. This is done to prop up farmers against much cheaper
non-usa sources. We here in the states pay much more for sugar then the rest
of the world as a result. That is why candy, pop etc are mostly made with
corn syrup rather than sugar it is far cheaper.

 *******************************************************
* Dave Hinrichs          E-Mail: dhinrichs at quannon.com *
* Quannon CAD Systems, Inc.      Voice: (952) 935-3367 *
* 6101 Baker Road, Suite 204       FAX: (952) 935-0409 *
* Minnetonka, MN 55345                                 *
*                http://www.quannon.com/               *
********************************************************



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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:53:00 EDT
From: Sethmfisher at aol.com
Subject: should I refrigerate?

homebrewers-
I just tasted a batch of honey porter after two weeks in the bottle. It 
wasn't bad, had great carbonation ( I primed with honey) but I was wondering 
if I should now just put it in the fridge, especially since we are in a bit 
of a heatwave out here ( in southern ca) and I don't have real temperature 
control.

thanks
Seth Fisher


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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 08:56:21 -0700 
From: "Cave, Jim" <Cave at psc.org>
Subject: Crankandstein Grain Mills

	Does anyone have any experience with these mills?  They look pretty
beefy.

				Jim Cave


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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:01:58 -0700 
From: BrianS <schar at cardica.com>
Subject: Fermenting in primary

Gary Smith writes:

<<What's considered a safe time to leave a beer in 
the primary without negatively affecting the flavor? 
Is two weeks excessive?

I've usually transferred to the secondary within 3-4 
days but leaving it in longer would be more flexible 
for me.>>

I have never used a secondary in 10 years of brewing.  I always leave my
beer in the primary to make sure fermentation is done.   I have never
experienced any off-flavors as a result, as far as I can tell.  My
concern with the secondary is that the transfer process is one more
place for contamination to creep in, as well as oxidation.  I'm also too
lazy to clean another set of fermenters and too cheap to buy them.  

I even went 3+ weeks in the fermenter once when I was away on business
and didn't have time to bottle.  No problems even then.  

Brian Schar
Menlo Park, CA


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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:03:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: Cider and Perry at the GBBF

Ray Daniels notes the excellence of the cider and
perry examples at the GBBF.  He is right on.  There
were 50 or so. The trip would have been worthwhile
just for these.  The difference between these real
ciders and what we see in this country in homebrew
competitions is astounding.

First, there are 10 degrees of dryness from a tangy
fruity sweet elixer to a mouth puckering Chablis-like
apple wine that would hold its own against many of the
finer white wines.  Even as a rank novice,I could
easily tell the difference between at least five. 
Regardless of dryness, all of  the better examples
were clearly possessed of apple or pear aroma and
flavor. 

The difference in mouth feel between the invited
examples at the GBBF and our over manufactured
products was marked.  NONE were crystal clear, none
were even sort of clear (nor were the Norman ciders we
had in France, unless bottled for distribution outside
Normandy).  The BJCP standards would seriously fault
all of these great quaffs.  Maybe we need a category
for real ciders.  

Harold Dowda

Planning 'dinner on the ground' and frantically
seeking judges for the 4th Annual Palmetto State
Brewers' Open September 28. Cash Beer BOS, 7th and
higher entry from the same brewer is free, the Just
Good Beer Brewoff, a separate Mead/Cider BOS and no
category compaction.....

http://www.sagecat.com/psb/psbo4.htm






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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 12:03:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Christopher T. Ivey" <ivey at ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Subject: barleywine

Greetings,

I'm thinking about brewing a batch of barleywine, which I have never
before attempted.  I'm interested to hear any opinions or advice about
other folks' barleywine experiences.  In particular, I've heard different
opinions about using champagne yeast vs. beer yeast (or starting with beer
yeast and adding champagne yeast later), and about splitting a 5-gal batch
into two 5-gal buckets during the explosive primary fermentation stage to
avoid losing wort through the blowoff tube.  Any thoughts about these or
other issues?  Also--please send recipes!  (I can do a partial mash or all
extract batch of high OG beer, like b-wine, with my current setup).
Thanks!

Chris Ivey
Champaign, IL





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---