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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Barleywine Fermentation (acez)
  Two long krausen ("Dr. Rodney Wild")
  some data of Straffe Hendrik (6%) (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  Re: BarleyWine Fermentation (Jeff Renner)
  Flandersweizen? (Eric)
  Re:Disolved Oxygen Research ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Diacetyl woes, can you help diagnose? (Mark Linton)
  re: Lager Starter Question ("The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty")
  First batch -- question about fermentation (Carson Saunders)
  Yeast ABP (cont.) (Richard Foote)
  Re: barleywine (Dave Kerr)
  Useful life of Iodophor solution (G C)
  Cast iron LP stove (ELS)" <C.Baumle at elsevier.com>
  Beer goggles ("Houseman, David L")
  Serving from a Cornie with Beer Pump ("Vernon, Mark")
  Elderberries ("ira Edwards")


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Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 00:48:20 -0400
From: acez at mindspring.com
Subject: Barleywine Fermentation

Scott,

If you had significant fermentation in the secondary, you probably have mostly
C02 laying over the beer anyways, so it's most likely not much of an issue. If
your still worried though, you can either use a clarifier or filter to clear
it, then bottle, or you could transfer to a glass carboy flushed with carbon
dioxide. If you fill a tertiary carboy with C02 very slowly, allowing the gas
to sink to the bottom, then rack very carfully below it, it will expell any
oxygen out of the top as the beer fills the carboy (for the most part),
preventing significant oxidation. C02 is heavier than air and will layer like
oil and water as it sinks.

If you are having siphoning problems I would recommend checking out
Fermetech's autosiphon available pretty much anywhere. Anyone who uses it
(myself included) knows how much easier it makes the transfering process. The
C02 process mentioned above will require investment in a C02 tank and a
regulator, but if you decide to move into kegging (if you aren't aleady) you
will be that much ahead. You can also buy C02 flushers that use little 12 gram
C02 cartridges and save yourself some cash, but at the cost of turbulent
expulsion into the carboy, requiring longer time to separate (I would
imagine).

Just my two cents. 

Good luck!
Casey


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Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 22:41:16 -0700
From: "Dr. Rodney Wild" <rwild at ptialaska.net>
Subject: Two long krausen

I have an amber ale that has had a think krausen head on it for two weeks. 
 Does anyone know why this sometimes occurs?  It's a ten gallon batch with 
a Wyeast American Ale starter.
Thanks,

Rodney Wild



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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 08:44:19 +0200 
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: some data of Straffe Hendrik (6%)

Hi,

Braam Greyling  asked about Straffe Hendrik.

I bought in a supermarket a sixpack of the 6 vol% blond version on Friday 6,
September (a 8.5 vol% brown version also exists). The crowncork mentions May
2004.
My wife used to like this beer. But after a first sip she said, she didn't
like this one.

Color is a little darker than Pilsener beer. Foam is stable. The smell is a
little sweet with some maltiness. Fruity ester flavors and aromas are
moderate to strong. No diacetyl.
Taste: first a little sweet, than fruity. Low bitterness, not lingering.
The label mentions 6 vol% alcohol. Fermentation in the botlle. I measured 6
degrees Brix (with alcohol, so this doesn't tell a lot (FG approx. 1.024).
 
In my opinion you can make this beer with Pale Malt (enough to get 6 vol%
alcohol).  Maybe a few % wheatmalt (5 %). Maybe with some sugar.
I think the most important thing is the yeast.
<http://www.trabel.com/brugge-ta-brouwerij.htm>
<http://www.halvemaan.be/english/home.html>


Greetings from Holland (Europe), Hans Aikema  <http://www.hopbier.myweb.nl/>



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Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 07:51:08 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: BarleyWine Fermentation

Scott <scottandlisa at mindspring.com> writes from Greenbrier, TN

>I recently brewed a batch of barleywine.  Everything went fine with
>the primary fermentation; however, when I racked to secondary, I only got
>about 3.5 gals. into the 5 gal. carboy because of siphon problems.  The brew
>has been in the secondary for about a month, has reached its target gravity,
>but is still very cloudy.  I'm concerned about leaving it too much longer in
>the secondary because of excessive headspace and oxidation issues.  Any
>opinions?

Two things come to mind.  First, a three gallon carboy is not too 
expensive.  Second, time will clarify it, and the BW will need it 
anyhow, so bottle it up and let it clarify in the bottle.

It is a good idea to get it out of a partially full secondary.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 08:35:00 -0400
From: Eric <edahlber at rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Flandersweizen?

I was hoping I could get some opinions (quickly of course) on what I 
should try with my latest brewing boo-boo.

I have been brewing since January doing extract and specialty 
grain/extract. I have also been trying as many different styles as 
possible and recently fell in love with the few Hefeweizens I've had. My 
wife bought me the German Wheat Beer book from the classic beer style 
series and I decided to try the recipe for Hans' Hefe Weizen on p. 103.

4 lbs pale malt extract
4 lbs wheat malt extract
Hallertauer hops (used pellets) 2.6 HBU
1.5 qts. Speise for priming
Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan Wheat

Brewing went well except for the multiple boilovers (2 pots). I overshot 
my gravity a bit at 1.060, but figured I could water it down a little 
when bottling. I did notice the wort was considerably darker than I had 
expected

Here's the problem (FINALLY KID GET ON WITH IT)
I was using Muntons and Fines (light and wheat) extract and didn't 
realize that the wheat extract is only 55% wheat vs. the 100% I assumed. 
So I am nowhere near what I wanted and am probably even way past a 
Dunkelweizen. It's been in the primary 5 days and is starting to slow 
down.Then I get to thinking about the discounted (slightly old) pack of 
Wyeast lambic blend I saw at the brew store.

So here's the probably lame and completely guessing plan -1) buy Lambic 
blend and 2) pitch into the speise I had reserved for priming. 3) wait a 
few days (weeks?) for Lambic critters to wake up etc. 4) rack beer and 
lambic speise onto maybe 5 pounds of cherries - Ta Daa - Flandersweizen 
in 6 months to a year?

What do you think? My main concern was not being sure how well the 
slightly old Lambic blend might do up against a healthy supply of 3068. 
Is this blend hearty enough to catch up? Am I even close to a Flanders 
brown this way? I have only read 1 article (All about Beer march 2002) 
on this style. I picture - Clove, banana, cherry horseblanket -sounds 
good huh?

Let me know - public or private -
Eric Dahlberg

p.s. I plan on dumping a fresh batch of Hans' Hefe onto the yeast left 
over when I rack



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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 08:38:31 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Re:Disolved Oxygen Research

Demonick:

Thanks fore your interest in my research.  I will answer your questions
as best I can.  Unfortunately, I cannot carry out the experiment exactly
as you requested.  My D.O. meter is limited to 103 degrees F.  Going to
the boiling point of water would result in inaccurate results and
possibly damage the oxygen-sensing probe.

Oxygen content in water constantly decreases as the temperature
decreases.  It is an exponential relationship.  That is, the rate of
decrease is more or less constant (percent change/degree F) to about 170
degrees F.  At about 170 degrees F the rate of decrease becomes even
more rapid.  At the boiling point of water no dissolved oxygen remains
in solution.

It might seem surprising that at the boiling point of water there is no
oxygen in water.  In "normal" exponential relationships the
concentration gets less and less, but there is always some.

As it happens, there is no solubility of the other major gases at the
boiling point of water.  I cannot say with certainty that there is some
gas with limited solubility at the boiling point of water, but I doubt
that any gases have any solubility at the boiling point of water.

You may wonder why this is the case.  As best I can determine it is due
to that fact that one gas displaces another.  For example, sparging
water, beer, etc. with nitrogen will displace the oxygen, carbon
dioxide, and trace gases.  At the boiling point of water, water vapor is
constantly being formed.  Thus water becomes a gas and displaces other
gases.

I did boil some water and after it cooled to about 100 degrees F
measured the dissolved oxygen.  It was 0.82 ppm, which is about 8% of
normal saturation.  I feel that at the boiling point there was no oxygen
left in solution.  The conclusion is that the water cools, is picks up
oxygen.  It is doubtful, though, that the oxygen would return to
saturation levels without considerable agitation or sparging with pure
oxygen.

I hope this answers your question.  Good luck on your future endeavors.

Phil DeVore
ped at qdm.net




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Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 08:24:00 -0500
From: Mark Linton <cryptcl at earthlink.net>
Subject: Diacetyl woes, can you help diagnose?

Hi all,

I just tasted my Bohemian Pils that I kegged about two weeks ago.  Granted, 
it's not *really* ready yet, I'd like to give it a month or so to lager at 
refrigerator temps.  However, couldn't help myself on Sunday and hooked it 
up to the tapper to pour out a half beer to assess its progress.  I posted 
a question about this batch several weeks ago, when I was concerned about 
protein haze since I didn't do a protein rest with the Weissheimer Pils 
malt.  I had just been drinking a Veltins pilsner, so the conversion on the 
palate should not be too extreme.  At first, I thought I nailed it.  The 
bitterness was dead-on compared to Veltins, but then the diacetyl reared 
its ugly head.

Can anyone tell me the best way to avoid this in the future?  I made a 
Munich Dunkel back in the Spring, and while it was good, there was some 
diacetyl in there that spoiled the party too.  I've made other lagers, and 
never noticed them though.

My method of brewing is the standard 2 x 5 gallon Rubbermaid coolers, 
generally using a single temp infusion (in the summer when I'm trying to 
speed things up), cool with an immersion chiller to the low 80's/high 70's, 
transfer to a carboy and leave it in the chest freezer until temps are down 
into the low 60's and dropping before pitching the yeast.  I think I 
pitched the 1500 ml starter of the WLP802 Czech Budejovice Lager at about 
60F, and it was in the low 50's just a few hours later.  I'm pretty sure 
that the temp never rose above 54F, mostly residing in a tight range of 
52-53F.  White Labs claims "low diacetyl" in the description, so since I 
didn't do a diacetyl rest this time.  Big mistake?  I've done them in the 
past, but they just don't seem to do much - maybe I'm doing them at the 
wrong point of the initial fermentation.  Too late in the process and the 
yeast has gone dormant, and too early and you'll probably *make* diacetyl, 
right?  I'm wondering if I should pitch at around 50F, and ferment in the 
40's F.

Anyway, I'm perplexed why it happened this time, I thought I did everything 
right.  Will this diminish with time, similar to the way sulphur goes 
away?  Anything I can do now to improve this (otherwise) good batch?

Attached below is the printout from ProMash, if that's of any help.

Any guidance on any other item would be appreciated.  Thanks!

Mark

- ------------------

ProMash Recipe Printout

Recipe : Three Putt Pilsner

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
- -------------------------------

02-A  European Pale Lager, Bohemian Pilsner

Min OG:  1.044   Max OG:  1.056
Min IBU:    35   Max IBU:    45
Min Clr:     3   Max Clr:     5  Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
- ----------------

Batch Size (GAL):         5.50    Wort Size (GAL):    5.50
Total Grain (LBS):        9.00
Anticipated OG:          1.048    Plato:             11.91
Anticipated SRM:           2.7
Anticipated IBU:          38.3
Brewhouse Efficiency:       78 %
Wort Boil Time:             70    Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
- ----------------

Evaporation Rate:      15.00    Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size:    6.67    Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity:      1.040    SG          9.90  Plato

Formulas Used
- -------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used:   Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Tinseth
Tinseth Concentration Factor: 1.30

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops:         2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops:      10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

    %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  77.8     7.00 lbs. Weissheimer Pilsner           Germany        1.038      1
  16.7     1.50 lbs. M. W. Pilsner Malt            Germany        1.037      2
   5.6     0.50 lbs. Briess CaraPils               America        1.034      2

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

    Amount     Name                              Form    Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
   0.50 oz.    Magnum                            Pellet  15.00  29.1  60 min.
   0.38 oz.    Czech Saaz                        Pellet   4.00   5.8  60 min.
   0.25 oz.    Czech Saaz                        Pellet   4.00   1.9  15 min.
   0.25 oz.    Czech Saaz                        Pellet   4.00   1.4  10 min.
   0.75 oz.    Czech Saaz                        Pellet   4.00   0.0  0 min.


Yeast
- -----

White Labs WLP802 Czech Budejovice Lager


Notes
- -----
Brewed/Pitched: July 26th, 2002
1500ml starter w/ Czech Budejovice  at  high krausen
Ice Mountain (3.5) + Naperville water (~3) used for mash & sparge

- -----------------

Mash-in  at 151F for 70 minutes
Another quick & easy sparge/lauter "Summer Sparge"  at  ~45 minutes
No substantial hot break foam - but plenty of particles.
Started to clear upon cooling - Overall another easy brewday.

O. G. = 1.048

- ---------------------

Signs of fermentation on the afternoon of 7/27 (day of namesake...)

No protein rest - was it necessary?

August 9th:  Transferred to secondary  F.G. = 1.009  Clearing nicely.
August 21st:  Temps down to 38F, still pretty clear w/ sediment on bottom
August 26th:  Kegged, F.G. = 1.009  Pretty clear, nice clean bitterness

September 8th: Tasted nice, perfect bitterness, but a lot of diacetyl in 
there too.




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Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 09:09:47 -0500
From: "The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty" <mikey at swampgas.com>
Subject: re: Lager Starter Question

Steve Spaketh in HBD 4036
===========================
> Hmmm - well I generally agree w/ the comments of Marc Sedam and
> Kap'n Salty (Cap'n Crunch's evil twin) but let's take it a bit further.

> I don't know what the DME+water formula gives, but starters should be
> around 10P and not above 12P. Also the Kap'n  says your starter is
> too small but so is his.  You should pitch 5gal of lager wort with the
> yeast from at least a half-gallon starter and preferably a full gallon!

A couple of clarifications here:

 -	Kap'n Crunch is, in fact, _my_ evil twin. I mean the man is
obviously a pirate -- do I really have to point this out?

 - 	As stated in my post, one quart for 5 gallons is the barest
minimum, with at least a one gallon starter preferred. Again -- as
stated in the post -- I personally use a 2 gallon starter (decanted,
of course) per 6-gallon batch, or pitch on the cake from a previous
batch, tho I generally don't pitch more than two subsequent beers on
the same cake.

It _is_ possible to make a decent lager from a quart starter, though I
have had only mixed success with such a small volume, especially when
pitched into a wort cooled to ferment temperature (in my case anywhere
between about 44-48F). Problems that I've seen in the past include
long lag times (always), underattenuation and less than clean
ferments. On the other hand, I've also made the occasional decent beer
this way. The bottom line though, is that a larger starter will yield
_consistently_ better results, which is why I go to the trouble of
making a large starter.

As a rule, the bigger the starter the less problematic a cold ferment
will be. In theory, it is possible to overpitch a beer, but in
practice this would be pretty difficult.

And remember: my results are SO good that Eric Fouch took one sip of
my dunkel, wept, and declared he would never brew again. And he
hasn't, to this day!


- -- tafkaKs

====
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html



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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 08:02:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carson Saunders <carson_saunders at yahoo.com>
Subject: First batch -- question about fermentation

I just brewed my first batch of beer this past weekend
(Saturday) and I'm hooked already.  I had a little bit
of trouble cooling the wort down to the recommended 70
degrees (Im too cheap to buy a chiller).  I pitched
the yeast and put the fermenter in a closet.  Later
that evening I checked it and say that is was
fermenting very vigorously.  So vigorously that the
airlock barely had time to "fall" after a bubble
escaped before another bubble was ready to escape. 
Here is my problem.  The very next morning (Sunday), I
checked the fermenter again and noticed no activity. 
I thought it had slowed down and thought nothing of
it.  I checked again Sunday evening and still saw
nothing.  This time I sat and watched for at least 2
minutes and saw no bubbles.  I also noticed
condensation on the inside of the airlock.  We keep
the house at around 74 degrees and I don't think the
closet is any warmer.  Is this normal behavior or is
something wrong?

Thanks
Carson Saunders



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Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 12:52:22 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Yeast ABP (cont.)

Brewerz,

Thanks to all who responded publicly/privately to my yeast APB.  I still
have info. lacking on two strains, specifically Ayinger lager and Saflager
dry lager yeasts.  Any info. such as brewery origin, fermentation
characteristics, flocculation, optimum fermentation temps., typical flavor
contributions, etc. would be welcome.  I am trying to complete a club
project we did, the results of which I will share with the group.

TIA,

Rick Foote
Murrayville, GA



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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:52:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dave Kerr <dave_kerr2001 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: barleywine

Jethro may chime in here, as his bw's have won many
awards, but here's my two cents:
I like to use 85% pale/5% torrified wheat/10% crystal
or Munich malt, sparge sparingly, shoot for OG around
1.100 or so, and hop the bejeezus out it with any/all
of the 4 C's (upwards of 100 IBU, as Rogue hops their
Old Crustacean).  Try pitching onto the yeast cake
from a batch of APA or some such, using Nottingham or
Chico yeast, and oxygenate often for the first 12
hours of the ferment.  I'll sometimes toss an actively
fermenting 2 quart starter after a few days in the
primary.  Open fermentation has worked well for me,
too.  I would suggest watching the temperature pretty
carefully, as violent fermentations can throw off
quite a bit of heat.  I rack from the primary after
about 2 weeks, rack again after a month or 2, bottle
after another 2 months.  Add fresh yeast when you bottle.



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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:04:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: G C <gsd4lyf at yahoo.com>
Subject: Useful life of Iodophor solution

How long can one leave a 12.5ppm Iodophor solution in
a corny keg and keep the keg effectively sanitized? 

Guy
Los Gatos, CA 





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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:05:55 -0500 
From: "Baumle, Chris (ELS)" <C.Baumle at elsevier.com>
Subject: Cast iron LP stove

Just wanted to alert those in the market for a propane burner that Harbor
Freight has a single-burner cast iron stove for only $7.99. I don't know how
well it will work for homebrewing, but I will report back after I receive
them. Do not know btu's etc. Here is the link:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44893

Standard disclaimers apply.

Chris Baumle
- --sporadically brewing in Camden County, NJ


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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 14:50:23 -0400 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Beer goggles

Study proves drinking makes members of opposite sex look more attractive

AUG 19, 2002 - Scientists in Scotland have found proof of the so-called
"beer
goggles" effect. They discovered that men and women who have consumed a
moderate amount of alcohol find the faces of the opposite sex 25% more
attractive than their sober counterparts.

And the study revealed that there was no difference in the beer goggles
effect
between men and women.

Students at Glasgow University were shown color photographs of 120 male and
female St. Andrews University students aged 18 to 26. Participants were
asked
to rate their aesthetic properties on a scale of between one -- highly
unattractive -- to seven -- highly attractive.

Half of the students had drunk up to four units of alcohol, equivalent to
two
pints of beer or two-and-a-half glasses of wine. The 40 who had been
drinking
rated the people in the photographs as broadly more attractive than those
not
drinking.

"Everyone`s heard of the beer goggles effect but we wanted to measure once
and
for all whether a moderate amount of alcohol increases the judgment of
facial
attractiveness," said Prof. Barry Jone of Glasgow University psychology
department.

"The increase in perceived attractiveness appeared to be the same for the
ugly
people as the pretty people, he said. "Attractiveness provides a very
important
signal of mate quality, it shows you have good genes and a healthy body."

The beer goggles phenomenon is caused by alcohol stimulating the part of the
human brain which is used to determine facial attractiveness, the nucleus
accumbens, he said.





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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:59:27 -0500 
From: "Vernon, Mark" <mark.vernon at pioneer.com>
Subject: Serving from a Cornie with Beer Pump

Okay all you Beer Pump owners out there, I finally have a English Pale Ale
near completion and am getting ready to cask condition it and serve it via
my Beer Pump (I love e-bay). Now I did get a CO2 valve from Britishpub.com
that lets co2 in as beer is pumped out, so that is not an issue. My question
is how do you hook the Beer Pump up to the cornie? Do you use a standard QD
on the cornie and then step up the hose size to connect to the Beer Pump? or
do you fit a different fitting on the cornie post? Public or private replies
welcome....

I have no idea what my Rennerian Coord's are...but I live in Des Moines
IA.....(good pig country that? eh?.....)

Cheers!!!!! 

Mark Vernon, MCSE, MCT
Sr. Network Engineer
Pioneer Hi-Bred International
Mark.Vernon at Pioneer.Com

"It's not about having what you want, it's about wanting what you have"



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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 19:29:05 -0800
From: "ira Edwards" <ira_j_e at hotmail.com>
Subject: Elderberries

hello

I am wondering if anyone out there has hints for the use of elderberries in
Mead and Beer.  I have seen elderberry wine recipies, and have heard of
elderberry beers and meads, but nothing on the web that I have found lets me
know what is the best way to prepre and use these fruits.  Thanks for any
help...

Ira Edwards
ira_j_e at hotmail.com





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---