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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Any good brewpubs or Micros in Ontario? ("Gary Smith")
  Gump on Manchester/Manchester/Barleywine ("Rob Moline")
  Jethro Chiming in on Dave Kerr ("Rob Moline")
  Belgian Candi Sugar (Tom & Dee McConnell)
  Sanibel Brew Pub? (darrell.leavitt)
  Drum Heaters and Such ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Re: Dissolved Oxygen Research (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Yeast ABP (cont.) (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Serving from a Cornie with Beer Pump (Jeff Renner)
  Water adjustments? (Steven S)
  Predicting FG (David Passaretti)
  Open fermentation question ("Adam Wead")
  Dissolved Oxygen Research ("Sergi, Michael")
  Beer Music Site (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ryncd=20Gweyth?=)
  Barley Malt (Wayne Aldrich)
  Kap'n Saly's Dunkle (EFOUCH)
  RE: Straffe Hendrik ("Sven Pfitt")
  Moosehead vs Anything Moosey (Christopher Jon Poel)


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Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 23:24:18 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at ameritech.net>
Subject: Any good brewpubs or Micros in Ontario?

How-d ,

Just got back & am heading out right away for 
Ontario.

Any Brewpubs I might put on the agenda?

Thanks,

Gary



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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 00:05:48 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Gump on Manchester/Manchester/Barleywine

		Gump on Manchester/Manchester/Barleywine

     While recent restrictions on speed of my cable modem have slowed me
from 3.3 m down/1.9  up...to 1432 down/114 up are annoying...the biggest
hass with cable modems must be that you have to schedule a week later to fix
probs......

>From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Danstar Yeast
>Recently had an opportunity to use one of these.
>Noted the one I used (Manchester) was now made in
>Denmark rather than Canada.  One assumes the yeast
>strain is the same.  Is it?.

     All Danstar strains are dna fingerprinted, flavor profiled, performance
parameter tested to match the originating strain. No matter the production
site, if it is a Danstar yeast, you can count on it performing as expected.

>From:"John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
>Subject: Danstar Manchester
>Does anyone know why this has been discontinued?
>I am rather upset, as I used to like Danstar London and they stopped making
>it too. I generally prefer liquid yeast, but i like the manchester strain.
>It has worked great in mild ales and porters/stouts.
>I have a few hundred packs that are nearing or past their best before date
>but i figure if in the fridge or freezer they should be good a couple years
>(i can pitch several packs)..
>John

     Alas, like John, I too have been annoyed by the news that Manchester
was being deleted from the Danstar line, as I use it in the brewpub, and
will have to adjust my practices to deal with the new reality.
     But, the simple fact of life is that any company accelerates production
of those products that are highly sought after ....and closes production of
those that lag behind.
     Sad...though...considering that in a brewing world slowly but surely
recognizing that dry yeast has all of the positives (ease of use,
consistency)...and none of the negatives of past dry yeast (inconsistency,
infection, lack of vitality/viability).....that in the past year, half of
the great dry yeasts have been withdrwn. But that's the fact.
     Good news is that new products are out there...waiting to go into
production......and while I feel confident that they will eventually find
their way to you, I won't even speculate .....been there, done that.

>Subject: barleywine
>Greetings,
>I'm thinking about brewing a batch of barleywine, which I have never
>before attempted.  I'm interested to hear any opinions or advice about
>other folks' barleywine experiences.  In particular, I've heard different
>opinions about using champagne yeast vs. beer yeast (or starting with beer
>yeast and adding champagne yeast later), and about splitting a 5-gal batch
>into two 5-gal buckets during the explosive primary fermentation stage to
>avoid losing wort through the blowoff tube.  Any thoughts about these or
>other issues?  Also--please send recipes!  (I can do a partial mash or all
>extract batch of high OG beer, like b-wine, with my current setup).
>Thanks!
>Chris Ivey
>Champaign, IL


     Chris,
2 suggestions....

1) Nottingham dry yeast by Danstar...fabulous yeast for Barleywines.....
2) FermCap by J.W. Siebel....available through Crosby &
Baker...1-800-FLA-MALT

     Nottingham rocks...and subsequent additions of champagne yeast add
little to the brew....
     FermCap will save your life/marriage/carpet....

Gump

Rob Moline
Lallemand
515-282-2739 CABCO
515-450-0243 cell

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 00:36:33 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Jethro Chiming in on Dave Kerr

		Jethro Chiming in on Dave Kerr

     Dave is right on all fronts...and his recipe is as good as any that
gets the sugars out there....He should be a preacher for Bonham's 'No
Sparge' regimen....
     Where he hits the heights are his advice on yeast....advocating healthy
starter as is found in a new/fresh yeast cake from a lesser brew...and ample
oxygenation...this alone will make so much difference....."CRITICAL POINT"
for a high grav brew.....and his advice for oxygenation follows my tutors,
who suggest O2 from the 14th through 24th.....
     Brewers using 5 gram sachets are well advised to use several.....Look
for upcoming updtaes on sachet size from Lallemand.

     Again, investigate FermCap...god's gift.....and I advocate force
carbing ...
Gump
"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"


>From: Dave Kerr <dave_kerr2001 at yahoo.com>
 .Subject: Re: barleywine
>Jethro may chime in here, as his bw's have won many
>awards, but here's my two cents:
>I like to use 85% pale/5% torrified wheat/10% crystal
>or Munich malt, sparge sparingly, shoot for OG around
>1.100 or so, and hop the bejeezus out it with any/all
>of the 4 C's (upwards of 100 IBU, as Rogue hops their
>Old Crustacean).  Try pitching onto the yeast cake
>from a batch of APA or some such, using Nottingham or
 .Chico yeast, and oxygenate often for the first 12
>hours of the ferment.  I'll sometimes toss an actively
>fermenting 2 quart starter after a few days in the
>primary.  Open fermentation has worked well for me,
>too.  I would suggest watching the temperature pretty
>carefully, as violent fermentations can throw off
 .quite a bit of heat.  I rack from the primary after
>about 2 weeks, rack again after a month or 2, bottle
 .after another 2 months.  Add fresh yeast when you bottle.
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 01:42:25 -0600
From: Tom & Dee McConnell <tdmc at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Belgian Candi Sugar

Graham Sanders has an article on making your own Belg candi sugar.  
Go to http://www.hosted.com.au/~craftbrewer/index.html and click on 
Making Your Own Belgian Candy Sugar by Graham Sanders 
under the "Grains & Sugars" section.

Tom & Dee McConnell (tdmc at bigfoot dot com dot no-spam)
Albuquerque NM 87111



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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 07:14:34 -0400
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Sanibel Brew Pub?

A recent trip to the Sanibel Brewbub found that it was closed...anyone in the
southern Florida area know what happened to the Sanibel Brewpub?
Private message is probably best.
 .Darrell




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Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 15:16:27 -0400
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude02 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Drum Heaters and Such

Paul Mahoney asks about using drum heaters as a method for heating mash 
drums, er, tuns.  I gotta say that I don't think their thermostats are 
sensitive enough, but that can be rectified by using a better thermostat 
and hooking it up to the heater in the same manner one would put a more 
sensitive thermostat on a fridge.

I'm sure they can tell you if the drums are food grade, too, so I'd say 
you're set for a 50 gallon mash system (cool!).  I've seen the Global 
Industrial catalog a few times and my thoughts of fitting such neat gadgets 
and stuff into my brewing system has kept me occupied at times, too.

Lastly, Paul, please (if you're a member) say "hey" to new Star City 
Brewers member Joe White.  We miss him at our club severely.

Rick




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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:12:52 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Dissolved Oxygen Research

Phil Wilcox relayed for his Uncle Phil DeVore:
>I did boil some water and after it cooled to about 100 degrees F
>measured the dissolved oxygen.  It was 0.82 ppm, which is about 8% of
>normal saturation.  I feel that at the boiling point there was no oxygen
>left in solution.  The conclusion is that the water cools, is picks up
>oxygen.  It is doubtful, though, that the oxygen would return to
>saturation levels without considerable agitation or sparging with pure
>oxygen.

Phil - how about canning a mason jar pint or quart of boiling water 
in a water bath.  Then, after it is cooled, open it and immediately 
take the DO.  This should read virtually zero, I would guess.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:32:19 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Yeast ABP (cont.)

Rick Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com> of Murrayville, GA needs info on 
Ayinger yeast.

If that's YCKC's Ayinger, it was hand carried to Ann Arbor from 
Germany by Herr Durst maybe five years ago or more for Dan McConnell, 
owner of YCKC.  Durst was here for a tour of US breweries and trade 
shows to drum up business with GW Kent's owner Randy Reichwage.  It 
has been shared as far as Australia, where it is legendarily popular 
with homebrewers.  Not sure how it got there.

The yeast came from a brewery in Aying in Bavaria, but I can't say 
that it is THE Ayinger brewery or not.  There are several in that 
town, I believe.

It is a great lager yeast.  It has typical lager yeast physical 
fermentation characteristics, and seems to me to produce a balance 
between malt and hops.

I participated in a blind taste test of five or six one gallon 
pilsner batches that Arbor Brewing Co (an Ann Arbor brewpub, and my 
"local") produced.  They wanted to choose a better lager yeast than 
the one they were using.

Five or six one gallon pilsner worts were fermented with different 
yeasts at 50F, including probably 34/70, Anchor, A/B, Ayinger, and 
not sure what else, then lagered at 50F.  ABC's two owners, the 
brewer, Dan and I were on the panel.  The Ayinger was the unanimous 
first choice.  I thought it blew the others out of the water.  It was 
clean but not sterile tasting, and allowed the malt and hops to come 
thru.

Hope this helps.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:03:08 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Serving from a Cornie with Beer Pump

Mark Vernon <mark.vernon at pioneer.com> of Des Moines writes

>My question
>is how do you hook the Beer Pump up to the cornie? Do you use a standard QD
>on the cornie and then step up the hose size to connect to the Beer Pump? or
>do you fit a different fitting on the cornie post?

I was able to use a thick walled tubing that both fit over the large 
barb on the beer engine without a clamp, and, with a clamp, sealed on 
the smaller corny beer-out barb.  Looks like 1/4" ID or maybe 5/16".

BTW, my beers taste better without the sparkler on the spout.  In 
England, sparklers are used in the north but CAMRA types disapprove 
of them for the southern beers.

For a pair of older beer engines (1930's, heavy brass, neat!) that I 
occasionally use at a private club, I have to step up using larger 
diameter hose over a short section of smaller hose on the corny barb.

These engines have small brass plates over the faucets - one reads 
"mild" and the other "bitter."  They are mounted permanently on an 
old 25 foot bar with in the second story of an old building in 
downtown Ann Arbor.  I have had a mild and bitter on the appropriate 
pump for couple of parties and it's great fun.  People who know 
nothing about real ale are intrigued and converted.  It's also nice 
because low alcohol real ale keeps the crowd convivial without 
becoming boisterous.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:49:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: Water adjustments?


With my brewing season coming up i've been looking at improving my
methods. I've determined that i need to monitor ph more closely and water
quality. Does anyone in the Atlanta, GA area (specifically Gwinnett
County) have the latest water quality analysis handy? I cant find it
online and calls to the county is giving me the run around.

I found a survey posted from 1997 and from what I know it hasnt changed
much. Apparently our water is almost a dead on clone of Pilsen's. What
effect does a water filter, specifically the Brita faucet model, have on
the water chemistry besides removing clorine?



Steven St.Laurent	403forbidden.net	[580.2,181.4] Rennerian



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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 08:56:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Passaretti <dpassaretti at yahoo.com>
Subject: Predicting FG

I have been all grain brewing (10-12 gal) for a while
and can usually hit my OG within a point or two. What
I can not seem to do is predicted my FG with any
accuracy. I know that there are a lot of variables
icluding mash temp, grain bill, and yeast strain. How
does everyone else do it, or do you just guess like I
do?

Thanks for any input

David Passaretti
Cincinnati, OH



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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:09:29 -0600
From: "Adam Wead" <a_wead at hotmail.com>
Subject: Open fermentation question

Dear HBD:

Forgive a stupid question, but, does open fermentation really mean "open?"  
As in, keep the the lid off your fermentation bucket?

What about contamination?

I know some style are more suited to open vs. closed fermentation.  What are 
the advantages/disadvantages?

thanks in advance,

Adam Wead

(Bloomington, IN)




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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:11:01 -0400
From: "Sergi, Michael" <Michael.Sergi at us.rhodia.com>
Subject: Dissolved Oxygen Research

Phil,

I hope I can assist in clarifying what your dissolved oxygen data shows.
The change in amount of oxygen dissolved in water during your test is in no
way related to the scrubbing action of the nitrogen and its displacement of
oxygen limiting concentration.  There are two factors at work here
equilibrium and mass transfer.  The first, equilibrium, tells you the
maximum amount of oxygen that will go into solution (for room temperature
water ~10 ppm, which you noted).  The second, mass transfer, tells how long
it will take the oxygen to be added to the water.  I plotted your O2 ppm vs.
air added data.  The plot shows the expected mass transfer behavior.  The
speed at which O2 is absorbed is related to a driving force.  Things like to
move from high to low concentration, this is the driving force.  Movement is
from the high O2 concentration air to the low O2 concentration water.  At
the beginning of the run the oxygen is absorbed fast (high driving force)
but as the water gets closer to its maximum O2 concentration (low driving
force) the O2 uptake slows and it takes longer and longer for more O2 to
dissolve.  This is what you witnessed.  So as not to overcomplicate the list
e-mail me direct for further information.

Mike


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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:12:45 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ryncd=20Gweyth?= <bluebelz2002 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Beer Music Site

I have just stumbled on a lovely web site there in the
US.  This club has beer songs, as well as traditional
ditties, on most of their pages.  If their beer
festivals are as much fun as the site, they are lucky
ducks. Hope you all enjoy if you have not seen it.

http://www.sagecat.com/psb.htm

Ryn



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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:59:42 +0200
From: aldrich4 at t-online.de (Wayne Aldrich)
Subject: Barley Malt

I recently purchased 1kg of barley malt from a supplier in Belgium.  I
bought it to add color and body to an American Brown Ale.  The bag is
labeled CARA-CRYSTAL (120 EBC). I know the EBC is the European colour
measurement in this case about 65 Lovibond.  But what the heck is
CARA-CRYSTAL?  Should I use it like an American crystal malt?  I also
purchased 1 kg each of Amber malt L-25 and Aroma malt L-70.  I was planning
to add these to a base Pale Ale malt to clone Pete's Wicked Ale.  I think
these 3 special malts will make up no more than 25 percent of my malt bill.
Any thoughts?

Wayne Aldrich




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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:17:00 -0400
From: EFOUCH at steelcase.com
Subject: Kap'n Saly's Dunkle


"And remember: my results are SO good that Eric Fouch took one sip of
my dunkel, wept, and declared he would never brew again. And he
hasn't, to this day!"

Completely, totally, almost entirely slanderous.

It was merely coinky-dinky that I was watching Dr. Phil on Oprah when I
tried Mikey's Dunkel.
And I almost brewed this last weekend.

Eric (searching for a new name for his new,all electric 15 gallon barn brewery)
Fouch


"Prediction is extremely difficult. Especially about the future."
 - Niels Bohr



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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:04:19 -0400
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Straffe Hendrik

Mail keeps bouncing. I'll try again.

As previously posted, I found Straffe Hendrik at the local purveyor of 
better brews the day after reading about the query on culturing yeast from 
it.

My experience seems to be a bit different from others who have posted.

I found both the blonde and Brown in appx 22oz bottles, with corks. I prefer 
blonds, so I picked up a bottle of it.  Chilled overnight and had the bottle 
the next evening. I had a canned starter ready along with an air lock and 
the appropriate sanatization tools. Poured the beer into two glasses 
(leaving about three oz in the bottom), flamed the lip, flamed the lip of 
the starter, poured starter in bottle and installed a sanatized air lock.

Read cork, 1998! Well puke! Beer will probably be good any way.

Oh, well. Probably won't ferment. Dreges look pretty nasty! Lots of loose 
sediment, unlike say, SNPA with yeast clinging to the bottom so tightly you 
almost have to scrape it off.

Beer is nice. Tastes like a doubbel (no marking as to what alcohol content 
is, no specifics on style other than "Straffe Hendrik". I know from the 
store where it is sold that it has to be at least 6% or it wouldn't be 
there. The brown was marked "Straffe Hendrik Brown". I'll pick up a bottle 
of it next.

Any way, the color is medium straw. Moderate head which dissipates quickly 
leaving a ring of foam around the glass. Aroma is slightly fruity with hints 
of malt, but little or no hops. Flavor is slightly sweet, but thin bodied 
with a dry finish. This may be due to the age in the bottle (if one can go 
by the cork) and being bottle conditioned. Very nice beer. I'll buy another 
when I get the Brown.

As to the yeast...... After finishing off the beer I checked on it (yea, 
kind of early huh) and the air lock was showing positive pressure which I 
assumed was due to the bottle warming up from refrigerator temp to room 
temp. Off to bed. Next morning, bubbles! That evening I pitched the contents 
into a .5L starter and plopped it on the stir plate.  Next day, lots of foam 
in the starter.  Last night I put the starter in the fridge to drop the 
yeast(?), and this morning was rewarded with a nice donut of white yeast in 
the bottom of the flask, covered with a layer of brown sediment.

So...... YES! you can culture the yeast from Straffe Hendrik.

Now I guess I need to come up with a recipe for it. Probably 1.064ish OG, 
mostly FB Pilsen malt with a touch of munich. Single step infusion at 152F. 
modist hop with SG, or EKG bittering and maybe a bit of Saaz FW or at 20 
min. no knock out hops.

Bottle condition of course.

By the way, this is a potential way of ranching yeast. If you bottle 
condition your beer, you can reculture it later for another batch. Or, share 
it with others. Sneaky, eh?

rev Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck



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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:29:27 +0900
From: Christopher Jon Poel <cjpoel at zb3.so-net.ne.jp>
Subject: Moosehead vs Anything Moosey

Got this off of the Real Beer site, and as a guy who loves good beer, 
it kind of bothered me. So I contacted some of the people involved, 
and got several replies, which I'll be happy to post if there's 
interest. If you have friends (or enemies) who like beer, pass this 
on to them, asking them to register their protest with Moosehead 
<info at mooseheadbeer.com> or a show of support to the breweries 
involved in the ongoing battle by Moosehead over the right to use the 
word "moose" as it relates to beer: Grand Teton 
<beermail at GrandTetonBrewing.com>; Big Sky <info at bigskybrew.com>; 
Moose Jaw <info at moosejawbrewpub.com>.

Thanks,

Chris Poel

P.S. There have been active discussions on two other boards about 
this problem -- check them out if you're interested.

Northern Brewer Forum
http://forum.northernbrewer.com/cgi-bin/
ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002770

Homebrew Adventures Forum
http://forums.homebrew.com/ikonboard.
cgi?s=3d6d6aa3a781ffff;act=ST;f=2;t=264;st=0

Note: For both these links to work, you have to remove the return 
after the first line and then past the link into your browser. Sorry.

==========

So long, Moose Juice

Moosehead wins trademark battle with Grand Teton Brewing

AUG 20, 2002 - Moosehead Brewers, Ltd., of Canada has won its 
five-year trademark battle with an Idaho brewery, and Grand Teton 
Brewing Co. will discontinue making Moose Juice Stout.

Grand Teton, formerly Otto Brothers Brewing, applied for the 
trademark in 1991 and received it in 1992. The U.S. Trademark Appeals 
Board canceled the trademark based on Mooshead's claim to the word 
"Moose" worldwide.

"I never dreamt it was possible," said Charlie Otto, founder of Otto 
Brothers and Grand Teton. "I believed that if you were issue a U.S. 
Trademark it was yours. We built our company on the assumption that 
once a mark was issued you had the freedom to go ahead to grow the 
brand."

"Attempting to understand why Moosehead would think that our regional 
Stout competes with their Canadian Lager is a mystery to me. We have 
never compared ourselves to them in any way. We are a true, 
handcrafted regional microbrewer. We're the little guys being shut 
down by a monster-sized corporation. It makes no sense and I wonder, 
who's next?"

Grand Teton will discontinue production the stout, which won a silver 
medal at the 2000 Great American Beer Festival. A brewery press 
release state that, "Changing the name is not an option to them at 
this point." Sweetgrass IPA was introduced to the market in the 
spring of 2002 and a new ESB will hit the shelves later this year.

(You can view the original story at: 
http://www.realbeer.com/news/articles/news-001756.html)
==========


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---